That is true, Pierce, but it's also boring.

I blame RPGPundit for this - asking a question like "do all RPGs have agendas?" is just asking for pretentious twaddle.

So what are the proletarian games, Pierce?

Quote from: JimBobOzThat is true, Pierce, but it's also boring.

I blame RPGPundit for this - asking a question like "do all RPGs have agendas?" is just asking for pretentious twaddle.

If the topic bores you, you can always stop reading it.

And yes, Forge games are pathetically middle-class.  Pathetic in that particular sense of people desperate to try to do anything to create the illusion that they're anything other than middle class, and dull.  Petit Bourgeoisie pseudo-intelligentsia.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditMy feeling is yes, because all human beings have agendas. Only some RPGs have "soft" agendas, where the author's ideologies only passively affect the quality of a game, whereas others have "heavy" agendas, where the author is being quite open about his/her biases and pushing them in their game.

But yes, to me at least in the most general sense every RPG will be affected by the ideas of their authors.  That's one reason why the matter of who wrote an RPG is information worth knowing.

RPGPundit

Looking down this thread there's a *lot* of vitriol about agenda vs. crusade vs. bias vs. whatever.

1. Agenda: a purpose--i.e. not only having a point of view but actively wanting to influence people with it? I have a hard time seeing GURPS or Hero in that light (and the alignment thing in D&D seems a bit of a stretch for wanting to influence anyone).

2. Crusade: a for-real mission statement vs. the audience (i.e. to convert). Very few.

3. Bias/POV: The author has some ideas and, hey, they're encoded into the game. Yeah--I think most do. It's hard to say what high-fidelity-to-reality games (Phoenix Command, GURPS, Recon, etc.) are in some cases (beyond what we might infer from a simple attention to ballistics). But since all people have these biases it makes sense that they'd appear in the game.

-Marco

Agendas? Games? What's the agenda of tic-tac-toe? What's the agenda of kerplunk? We all know the agenda of ice hockey - it's Canada's vanguard thrust in its ultimate quest to rule the world!!

Quote from: RPGPunditIf the topic bores you, you can always stop reading it.

JimBob doesn't need me speaking for him, but I think you misunderstand his post.  What he's saying is that, in an effort to stave off boredom, you've purposefully created a thread intended as bait for pretentious twaddle that will in turn create arguments for the sake of drama.  In broad terms, a troll.

For my part, I'll respond to this from the original post:

Quote from: RPGPundit...to me at least in the most general sense every RPG will be affected by the ideas of their authors. That's one reason why the matter of who wrote an RPG is information worth knowing.

Please.  It's a lot more valuable to simply be a thoughtful and discerning reader.  If "thoughtful and discerning" for you includes discriminating against a work based on an author's other works, more power to you.  You've stated more times than any of us can count that that's what you're about.

!i!

The reason a random internet schmoe like me will sound like a reductivist ideologue when it comes to the subject of gamer class identity is that it would require years and years of study to end up with an adequately subtle and comprehensive account of people's playstyles, setting ideas, system preferences, etc.

But I am not Pierre Bourdieu. I don't have a staff of statisticians crunching numbers for me, which I could then translate into the RPG scene equivalent of diagrams like these:

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/Anthro/Anth206/bourdieutaste2.jpg

http://www.toileses.org/premiere/diagramme_bourdieu_complet.jpg

And we need such ultra-hardcore sociological diagrams if we want to get results that can take into account both people's uniqueness and their class identity.

Until the Pierre Bourdieu of gaming comes along I will say this.

Being as it is an invention by THEM, the internet is naturally completely fucked up. With some exceptions.

You get to meet people who are otherwise shut out of the invisibly gated community that's middle-class life. You play online games with working-class people. And you notice things about the way in which they play a character, including:

No introspection.

No introspection, nor any of the behavior that's associated with that--conflictedness, self-loathing, unique-snowflake syndrome.

This is not to say that the PCs played by working-class gamers are shallow. On the contrary, it's to say that, used in this fashion, the term "shallow" is ridiculously middle-class.

So: a Conan paradigm vs. a Frodo/Lestat paradigm.

Which explains the ongoing victory of D&D over White Wolf games. D&D is a game that accommodates working-class playstyles. White Wolf and its rightful successor, the Forge, are exclusively bourgeois.

Quote from: jeff37923Bias is the more appropriate word here than agenda for most games. So what is the bias (or agenda if you prefer) for the following games:

Traveller (any version)
Cyberpunk 2020
Cybergeneration
Teenagers From Outer Space
Mekton (any version)
Twilight: 2000
2300AD
Jovian Chronicles

Now, what about games that have different settings? Does the setting have an impact? Example, does the setting bias for Dark Sun overshadow the bias of D&D?

For Jovian Chronicles, the bias is easy - society should drive technological advancement and not the other way around. The result: you get the Edicts and not Transhuman Space.

No they don't.

 In all my years of playing and mostly "GM"-ing I never felt like solving traffic issues with heavy weaponry because of a game (CAR WARS/GURPS:AUTODUEL),  nor did I want to discrimate against Psionics and artificial/synthetic people (TRAVELLER universe).

I didn't feel those points of view because the games did not infulence me to think that way and had no real discernible "agenda"  - other than being game settings.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityZing.

And by the way, there is nothing, but nothing, that's more middle class than your typical Forge game.

I actually believe "middle class" really means "dumb assed white people". See, DAWP are a special breed of white people that only the American middle class can produce. These are the kind of people that roll up their windows at an intersection just because a homeless guy is crossing the street. The female version, the "dumb assed white bitch" will actually fret about the possibility of being raped while rolling the window up.

So this means the typical Forge game is particularly coveted by DAWP? I need to think about that a bit...

You know, sometimes a cigar IS just a cigar.

QuoteYou get to meet people who are otherwise shut out of the invisibly gated community that's middle-class life. You play online games with working-class people. And you notice things about the way in which they play a character, including:

No introspection.

And thus the desire to find excuses to feel superior to one's fellow gamers continues.

The Forge had "brain damage", Settembrini brought moralizing and sexuality to the table, and now it seems Pierce's solution is to introduce classism to an already well poisoned atmosphere of discussion.

here's a more pointed suggestion:  Go fuck yourself you arrogant shithead.

Quote from: RPGPunditIf the topic bores you, you can always stop reading it.

And yes, Forge games are pathetically middle-class.  Pathetic in that particular sense of people desperate to try to do anything to create the illusion that they're anything other than middle class, and dull.  Petit Bourgeoisie pseudo-intelligentsia.

RPGPundit

Oh C'mon!!

 You knew it was a loaded question when you started the thread.
 You might be full of shit this time ...or just bored as someone else suggested.

- Ed C.

Quote from: WilI actually believe "middle class" really means "dumb assed white people". See, DAWP are a special breed of white people that only the American middle class can produce. These are the kind of people that roll up their windows at an intersection just because a homeless guy is crossing the street. The female version, the "dumb assed white bitch" will actually fret about the possibility of being raped while rolling the window up.

So this means the typical Forge game is particularly coveted by DAWP? I need to think about that a bit...

Well... middle-class is a broad category. What you are talking about is your average two-cars, two-kids suburbanite, right? But those people aren't gamers--I'm talking about their 18-year old son.

And just to fan the flames some more, I think that as in society so in gaming, class trumps race or nationality. Race is a smokescreen for the real social rifts, and the middle classes of all three countries I've lived in are fundamentally alike. But we already have a lot on our plate here.

I my movie viewing life, I tend to draw a line between movies that I view as having an "agenda" (Hero, Brokeback Mountain, Rambo) and those that don't (Oh, Pirates of the Carribean is the DVD I'm watching right now).

There's a difference between reflecting conventions of a genre, society, era, culture, or situation and willfully promoting agenda. So it is in games.