QuoteBiases are what we all have, and agendas are any and all actions driven by our biases.

That is a rather ideosyncratic definition of "agenda." If that's what you mean, the I have no objection to the OP, but left to itself the statements that people have an agenda or that games have an agenda does normally suggest something beyond mere bias.

Quote from: JongWKIMHO, the GM's agenda is far more important for a group than the author's agenda.

I think "ideology" is a better English term than agenda.

And some games these days are based on an ideology which asserts the primacy of the author's agenda over that of the group or GM.

Conversely the classic "the rules are the physics of the game world" is another ideology.

An ideology related to the first of the above two is that in order for people to communicate ideas and themes in a roleplaying context, the game must supply rules which operate on the level of ideas and themes; conversely the ideology states that lack of such rules amounts to a denial of ideas and themes. I.e., it ascribes to the ideology of "the rules are the physics of the game world" the false assertion that a game is an objective representation.

I think the exact opposite should be considered: that games which use mechanical rules for manipulating themes & ideas are themselves promulgating the false assertion that theme & ideas can be pinned down authoritatively through formal rules.

No.

People have agendas. Gods have agendas. Inanimate objects and laws of nature do not. For some reason many people are uncomfortable with this, and need to attribute some agenda to everything. It's annoying.

But what's even more annoying is when people attribute a DIFFERENT agenda to actions than actually exists, because it reflects their OWN agendas. Not too long ago there were quite a few people who believed that D&D had an occult agenda. After all, what other purpose could it POSSIBLY serve?

Perhaps to have FUN? They couldn't see that. Not in a million years.

Quote from: SettembriniD&D for example is built upon achievement principle.

So... humanity's current cream of the crop is the people posting their character builds on the WOTC boards?

Quote from: RPGPunditAll white wolf games tend to have an anti-"common man" agenda. A near-fascistic obsession with Ubermensch who are inherently superior to normal man, who is always fairly pathetic and easily defeated/manipulated by these supermen, who the common man hate.

That's not fascist at all. It's Ayn Randianesque libertarianism. Individualism to the max. Also, Vampires don't pay taxes. WW games are quintessentially American games.

Pfft. Agendas? Bollocks!

Some, sure. All, no way.

Most people have some kind of philosophy or world-view, whether they're conscious of it or not, and however ill-formed and self-contradictory it may be. They've got a certain way of understanding the world, a filter they apply to the things they see and experience, so they can make sense of them.

This philosophy will naturally turn up in their speech or writing, and in their game design.

Doesn't mean they have an agenda, though, doesn't mean they're trying to convert their readers or listeners to their way of thinking. There's a difference between expressing your ideas and teaching your ideas. If you don't see that difference, that can only be because you're only interested in teaching your own ideas, not simply expressing them. Of course, each of us tends to think that everyone else has our own virtues and vices. "I'm a missionary, so everyone else must be, too!"

Quote from: Pierce InverarityThat's not fascist at all. It's Ayn Randianesque libertarianism. Individualism to the max. Also, Vampires don't pay taxes. WW games are quintessentially American games.

 Ayn Rand Vampires and Werewolves!!???

 I'm trying to imagine Gary Cooper as Howard Roark turning into  a vampire and "embracing" Domique Francon.

- Ed C.

How did Gary Cooper ever end up in that movie?

Well, we´d have to seperate the underlying values of the portrayed universe from the underlying political statements of gameplay.

For example, Vampire´s gameplay as it is intended (taking the GM´s section at face value) is pure romanticism along with atrophied and watered down and pitted esoterics.

Whereas the game universe is about adolscent-angsty Superhero cliques, (without reflecting that). So, it´s a political statement denouncing adulthood and adult politics as a whole.

Both can be changed by the group playing it. And the political statements inherent in a setting are the most easy to trivialize by media savvy users. But the implicit political statements of gameplay are much more elusive, as this very thread shows.

Quote from: SettembriniBut the implicit political statements of gameplay are much more elusive, as this very thread shows.

Quite so, quite so... but that's where the real crux is, and that's what makes it so FASCINATING.

And I haven't even brought up my theory of class-based gameplay yet. Class as in Marx, not as in Fighter. We all know what the middle-class RPGs are... but are there working-class RPGs? You bet, according to my theory (TM).

Bias is the more appropriate word here than agenda for most games. So what is the bias (or agenda if you prefer) for the following games:

Traveller (any version)
Cyberpunk 2020
Cybergeneration
Teenagers From Outer Space
Mekton (any version)
Twilight: 2000
2300AD
Jovian Chronicles

Now, what about games that have different settings? Does the setting have an impact? Example, does the setting bias for Dark Sun overshadow the bias of D&D?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityQuite so, quite so... but that's where the real crux is, and that's what makes it so FASCINATING.

And I haven't even brought up my theory of class-based gameplay yet. Class as in Marx, not as in Fighter. We all know what the middle-class RPGs are... but are there working-class RPGs? You bet, according to my theory (TM).

Thanks, J A. To quote from an email I sent to a buddy before posting this:

QuoteIn the US of A class (especially working class) is unmentionable. Everything's middle class here. Or so people think. Even the guy in the trailer park. After all, he owns a TV and a pick-up truck. Ownership = midle class. Right? Right???

Quote from: Pierce InverarityThanks, J A. To quote from an email I sent to a buddy before posting this:

Take the pretentious twaddle somewhere else, wanker.

Last I knew, this was a forum about roleplaying games, not cockeyed political theories no but you cares about.

Now bugger off somewhere else, I came here to avoid shite like that.

Zing.

And by the way, there is nothing, but nothing, that's more middle class than your typical Forge game.