It is political.
There are many gameplay models, wherein tactics and ressource use don´t play a role in defeating opposition. For example combats of which the outcome is scripted for the sake of "story&plot".

Also, the question wether luck has a role in combat is also a statement.

Everything anyone creates is informed by that person's world view. Were you Sherlock Holmes, you could probably deduce from my games that I am a well read New England Yankee, over fifty, with a comfortable income, married with children, musical background, religious but belonging to no religion, and anarcho-libertarian politics. That is because what I am informs what I do. This is, apparently, Pundit's "soft Agenda," and if so, I have no quibble with that. I would call it "inherent bias," but I can live with "soft Agenda."

There are certainly some games that have Pundit's "hard Agendas," not surprisingly including Blue Rose, Werewolf, RaHoWa, and others. This is not really in dispute.

What exactly are we arguing about? "inherent bias" v. "soft Agenda?" That's like "That color is seafoam!" v. "What are you, blind from masturbating? That color is ecru!"

-clash

-clash

Quote from: SettembriniIt is political.
There are many gameplay models, wherein tactics and ressource use don´t play a role in defeating opposition. For example combats of which the outcome is scripted for the sake of "story&plot".

Also, the question wether luck has a role in combat is also a statement.

Eh, I don't buy it. What one writes into a gain can be orthogonal to how one thinks the world should be run or perceives it to be.

But it's obvious we aren't going to agree on the issue, so I think I'm done with this thread.

Children project their worldview onto everything they invent, but adults have the ability to narrate against their own biases -- often to avoid getting harried by players who see the bias inherent in the system. [/duh]

But what's interesting is using an RPG to further an agenda.  Over at the other place, there was a debate about D&D Paladins slaughtering Orc babies. One of the interesting points was that in the Monster Manual, Orcs have changed from Chaotic Evil to Ususaly Chaotic Evil AND there's a blurb about how many women and infants are found in the nest.  So now the dilemma is hardcoded into the game.

QuoteEh, I don't buy it. What one writes into a gain can be orthogonal to how one thinks the world should be run or perceives it to be.

I agree. So the political statements in the artifacts may be orthogonal to the authors, that doesn´t make them any less political.

Quote from: RPGPunditBut yes, to me at least in the most general sense every RPG will be affected by the ideas of their authors.  That's one reason why the matter of who wrote an RPG is information worth knowing.

RPGPundit

But if you read through it without knowing the author(s) and don't spot the agenda is the agenda strong enough to make a difference to your game?

And if you read through it not knowing the author(s) and the agenda is heavy enough to spot anyway, does it really matter that you don't know who's agenda it is?

Quote from: WilActually, and this is horribly off-topic, there seriously are Dumb Ass White People. I stand by that assertion - America produces a special breed of stupid Caucasians who are isolated from most of the world. They  cross to the other side of the street when they see someone who looks "different", roll up their windows at intersections when a homeless person crosses the street, report Lite Brites as possible bombs and believe that talking slowly and loudly to anyone in a foreign country will allow them to be understood. Pundit lives where there are probably white American tourists - he has to have seen most of what I'm talking about.

JE NE COMPRENDS PAS! QU'EST-CE QUE TU DIT!


Edit: because past participle and -re verbs kick my butt.

Quote from: HinterWeltJE NE COMPRIS PAS! QU'EST-CE QUE TU DIT!

Wouldn't that be "Je ne comprends pas! Qu'est-que ce tu dit?"

As to Pierce's Ugly American, I point to the exact same caricature of the British, the Arrogant Frenchman, the Hot-Headed Spaniard, the Shiftless Black, the Drunken Irishman, the Dumb Pole/Swede/Blonde, etc. They make for great jokes, but don't actually have a lot to do with reality.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceWouldn't that be "Je ne comprends pas! Qu'est-que ce tu dit?"

As to Pierce's Ugly American, I point to the exact same caricature of the British, the Arrogant Frenchman, the Hot-Headed Spaniard, the Shiftless Black, the Drunken Irishman, the Dumb Pole/Swede/Blonde, etc. They make for great jokes, but don't actually have a lot to do with reality.

-clash

Damn past participle, yes, it should have been comprends. I do not know why the -re verbs mess with me so much.

Quote from: J ArcaneJust ignore him.  "Adventure RPG" is just his special term for "the right way to play", just like "Narrativism" is on the Forge.

Ah, damn. Figured something like that.

Where I come from, programmers roam the wastelands and try to categorize things. All kind of things. Top down usually, with one 'universal' thing at the top (perhaps they seek God?). But then a horrible darkness befell the land, our own tower of Babel, and suddenly there were different words for 'category'.

So now we have attributes, properties, traits, classes, prototypes, aspects, interfaces, kinds, types, generics...

...and categories.

And they're all slightly but CRITICALLY different when they appear in the same language.

Compared to that, even seeing the Forge lexicon is refreshing in its clarity. However, I don't speak 'Forge' here, and dramatic narrative is just my way of saying "ongoing conflict presented in written or spoken form".

Now to ignore your advice.

Quote from: SettembriniIt is political.

We're you limiting this to mean the process by which groups of people make decisions you would be right. Certainly, a set of game rules is no different than any other set of laws a group of people agree to be bound by.

But I get the impression you're trying to imply something beyond this.

Quote from: SettembriniThere are many gameplay models, wherein tactics and ressource use don´t play a role in defeating opposition.

If it doesn't consist of resources, tactics, and uncertain outcomes, then it isn't a game.

Quote from: SettembriniFor example combats of which the outcome is scripted for the sake of "story&plot".

These are called stories. If it were a game then that moron in that horror movie would have listened to all my yelling about not going into the abandoned shack.

Quote from: SettembriniAlso, the question wether luck has a role in combat is also a statement.

And this is where I get that impression I mentioned.

What statement would that be? What can a set of auto-fire rules say about the designer's political PoV? Can you tell if they're pro-gun or anti-gun if they don't directly come out and say it?

Quote from: flyingmiceWhat exactly are we arguing about?

I have no idea. I'm here for the hotwings and margaritas...

...and the fact that I've been bitten in the ass by the 'assumed agenda' bug, which is big, hairy, and sprays formic acid as a secondary defense. It doesn't even matter if you tell this bug what your actual agenda is. It only considers what it made up itself, based on lord knows what kind of other input.

People who see inanimate constructs as having 'intent' frighten me, people who use technology to make a political statement (like some open source devs) annoy the hell out of me, and people who assume I'm one of those people cause me to do things...horrible things.

I think that 'narrativism' (Forge) and 'adventure game' (Settembrini) both mean something fairly clear and can be properly used in a not-especially-value-laden way, FWIW.

QuoteIf it doesn't consist of resources, tactics, and uncertain outcomes, then it isn't a game.

So 60% of german gamers aren´t actually playing RPGs?

I beg to differ.

Quote from: flyingmiceWouldn't that be "Je ne comprends pas! Qu'est-que ce tu dit?"

As to Pierce's Ugly American,

Wait! I don't want to go there again, but I wasn't making a nationalist argument. Wouldn't dream of it.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWait! I don't want to go there again, but I wasn't making a nationalist argument. Wouldn't dream of it.

-clash

Re. skeletons in the dungeon, Settembrini: no. You're assuming a one-to-one translatability of real world issues into the game world. But the game world isn't the real world plus Elves minus cars. It's not a version of it. It's a closed system. That's what makes the whole thing so challenging to think about.