Right, but how do you convince new players that using a VTT or even a system at all is worth it when they can just as while log onto insanely huge message-boards with freeform RP, and they don't have to bother learning anything new, just make a cool character and post?

Quote from: Peregrin;402908A) They don't like the idea of roleplaying, or feel embarassed by it
B) They don't want to invest the time to learn or play RPGs

B) is the biggie amongst the people I know. It's a time sink, and people usually don't understand why one would devote so much time to "just a game". This is where games like D&D Essentials can make a big dent.

As for lapsed players, the one major reason I see for not playing is just "having a life". Explaining you might not show up for the next eight hours to your wife. Having kids around. Schedules. "Other things to do". Or just wanting to take a break during the week-end and not feel like you're going at a game table like it's your second job (don't laugh - there are people who feel like this, especially when the DM starts bitching that the players don't do their job, could be more attentive, etc etc).

Quote from: Peregrin;402908The things that I have seen frustrate new players (to tabletop games in general, or just D&D) are combat length and information overload.  Combat length gets exponentially longer the less mastery you have, and there aren't many "simple" options for people who aren't used to minis games or RPGs.  Information overload is also part of the problem with combat, but I've seen it frustrate players and I've almost had people give up during chargen.

Absoluto-mundo! How many times have I seen newbies to 3rd ed wondering WHY it matters so much to get that +1 instead of +2 right, why is it that there are so many complicated explanations to simple words like "unconscious", why is it that nothing in this freaking game can be SIMPLE, FOR ONCE?

That's a major barrier. And that does NOT mean the rules have to be simplistic, or written for mentally disabled children. That's not the point. The point is the piling up of rules upon rules on the paper instead of having emergent complexity in the ACTUAL game as it is being played. Clear, straightforward rules, but with lots of subtleties in the way they may be employed at the game table. That'd be a winner.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;4029111) I get the feeling WoW is smaller than ever. I think many of the latest changes are specifically geared to trying to shore up a disppearing player base.

Are you innumerate? Do you honestly think your "feelings" about games affect the raw numbers of how many people play them? Do you think that selection bias is a good sampling technique? What the heck?

OK, World of Warcraft numbers. They hit Ten Million in July of 2008; they hit Eleven Million in October of the same year. Since then, they have basically "stagnated" at about Eleven and a Half Million Players.

But you know what? That's not "smaller than ever". Heck, that's not even smaller. That's the same size. That would be good news, not bad. If 4e D&D were pulling the same number of people now as it was three years ago, that would be great.

Why is it that every time actual published numbers don't agree with your narrative you go on about your feelings? No one cares about your feelings. Facts are more important, and they do not change when you wish super hard.

-Frank

Quote from: FrankTrollman;402922Are you innumerate? Do you honestly think your "feelings" about games affect the raw numbers of how many people play them? Do you think that selection bias is a good sampling technique? What the heck?

OK, World of Warcraft numbers. They hit Ten Million in July of 2008; they hit Eleven Million in October of the same year. Since then, they have basically "stagnated" at about Eleven and a Half Million Players.

But you know what? That's not "smaller than ever". Heck, that's not even smaller. That's the same size. That would be good news, not bad. If 4e D&D were pulling the same number of people now as it was three years ago, that would be great.

Why is it that every time actual published numbers don't agree with your narrative you go on about your feelings? No one cares about your feelings. Facts are more important, and they do not change when you wish super hard.

-Frank

It's not 2008 anymore, Frank. Starcraft 2 is out.
Why are the servers more open than ever, then? Why did they change the recruit a friend program to offer ever increasing rewards. At this point you can even get a flying mount.

It's definitely still huge, but is it as huge as it always was? There was a time when almost everyone I knew was playing, and a good percentage of them were even doing stuff like buying gold on Ebay, that sort of thing. And now almost everyone I knew.."has played" but isn't any longer. Last year, I walked through the hotel lobby at GenCon and saw a lot of people casually playing on laptops. This year, not a single person.

I think things have changed.  Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the population just shifted from here to Asia, or maybe it's something else entirely.

But that's kind of a side argument, I guess.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;402923It's not 2008 anymore, Frank. Starcraft 2 is out.

That's why the third link was from 2010, which reported 11.5 million players. Admittedly, Starcraft 2 did come out since then, and so did a great many other games. But WoW has stayed fairly steady for nearly 2 years before that, do you honestly expect us to believe that there was a catastrophic drop in players in the last six months without any hard evidence?

QuoteWhy are the servers more open than ever, then?

Well, the number of players has stayed fairly constant since Q4 2008, is it really surprising that they would have built up server space to handle that load in that time? Open servers just means that they aren't pushed beyond capacity by growth beyond their ability to handle.

QuoteWhy did they change the recruit a friend program to offer ever increasing rewards. At this point you can even get a flying mount.

Maybe someone in marketing thinks they are going to get fired if they can't get the kind of expansion they had in 2008? Sure it's profitable to have 11.5 million paid subscribers, but they are still a business and still want to get more players. Changes in marketing strategy do not necessarily mean that populations of players have fallen (although it could mean that). It could also mean that growth has fallen.

To bring this back to 4th edition D&D, the arrival of Essentials doesn't necessarily mean that 4e has hemorrhaged players left and right. It could just
mean that the number of players was some fixed number and someone in marketing is making a gamble to try to reach other players they didn't have already. It's the actual published numbers that mean that the player base has shrunk.

-Frank

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;402909There's no such thing as turning the clocks backward.

Nonsense.

Just drive a DeLorean DMC-12 at 88 mph.  

Quote from: ggroy;402926Nonsense.

Just drive a DeLorean DMC-12 at 88 mph.  

I got to get me one of those.

Quote from: Benoist;402929I got to get me one of those.

Time machine, yeah. But the DeLorean is a crappy looking vehicle. Crap.

Quote from: PaladinCA;403025Time machine, yeah. But the DeLorean is a crappy looking vehicle. Crap.

A couple of days ago I saw one driving around near where I live. I hadn't seen one on the road in years; a few of them were in the area because I'd see them parked or running around back in the 90s. I have to say that the car still looks pretty cool, though I missed the time machine equipment on the rear.