So, reading other comments about this divide I was hoping to spark up a more detailed discussion on the topic.

My view from writing my settings has been there is not so much a divide as a source to consider. I have three different magic mechanics I use. The first is a free form system. This is used by clerics, shamans and  psi. Mages use a point based spell casting system. Monks and paladins use a mix of the two. However, that is not how I view it when writing. Clerics can worship a false god and cast spell magic, or worship a "real" god and cast spell magic. Casting magic is not based on class beyond the definition of the source and dedication to the means of casting. So, an outside observer may say "Divine/Arcane division" where I would say, "You can be a cleric and cast spell magic".

So, your experinces with systems? I will not argue in some systems (possibly most) you have such a divide. If so, which ones and what is the mechanic behind it? If they do not, how is it addressed? One magic mechanic to rule them all? Many magic systems to model different aspects? I think it would be interesting to compare.

Thanks,
Bill

My main problem with the arcane/divine split in standard D&D is that not much healing magic is available unless you sign on with a god.  That's a critical game resource bounded by the setting in a way that just doesn't always work for me.

Quote from: jrientsMy main problem with the arcane/divine split in standard D&D is that not much healing magic is available unless you sign on with a god.  That's a critical game resource bounded by the setting in a way that just doesn't always work for me.

Agreed. Would it be acceptable if the healing magic varied? For example, a "divine" caster is given a healing appropriate to their god. For instance, the cleric of a god of war would store wounds (some number based on level) to a point then release them on enemies. A god of healing would bestow what is seen as the traditional DND healing ala cure light wounds and such. A mage would, perhaps, get a thaumeturgic healing that would allow him to transfer damage from a person to another or even an object. So, you buddy with x hp damage could get the damage transferred to a statue or some other object. Perhaps it would have the limitation of being able to absorb the damage; i.e. you could not transfer 100 HP damage to a piece of paper.

I must sayt hat limitation does seem weak. Are there other systems/settings with similar limitations?

Bill

Rolemaster allows all three realms to use healing magic, but arcane magic is mostly related to yourself only.

It's all about the execution.

WFRP2 makes a pretty definitive Arcane/Divine split, but makes it work very, very well.  I think it helps that the characters are assumed to lack access to healing magics.

D&D's split seems a lot more hollow...  Every party obviously needs a cleric, and every party's cleric needs to heal. It's crummy IMO.

In the d20 realms, I'll go ahead and plug Arcana Evolved again.  AE opens up healing magic to anyone who can cast spells, pretty much.  Greenbonds (think non-sucky druids) can do it a little better - and don't need to use their spells for it - but so long as you have any caster, your healing bases are covered.

-O

D&D 3.5's division between arcane and divine casters isn't as meaningful in play as the differing contents of different classes' spell lists. Wizards can heal themselves (Summon Monster + Vampiric Touch, frex) and Clerics get save or dies, so it's not a clean division of capabilities.

That said, I do like several spell systems that don't distinguish between divine and arcane casting, like Iron Heroes and Arcana Unearthed. It ultimately comes down to setting: Is it more appropriate to imply that the gods are not actually granting their servants magical power, or less appropriate?

I've always disliked the arcane/divine split.  In general, I prefer there simply to be 'magic' (however you want to cash that out), and some people learn to use it for good or ill.  Some magic-users might be associated with temples, others with cabals, etc., but it's still the same basic 'art'.  The only setting IME that made the divine/arcane split seem at all palatable is WFRP 2e.

If you need a fundamental 'split' among different kinds of magic, I much prefer something like a 'white magic' versus 'black magic' split (with the latter more powerful but corrupting, like sorcery in Conan).  I don't mind a distinction between arcane magic and psionics (or Rolemaster's distinction between 'essence' and 'mentalism'), if it can be justified by the setting, and the different powers are genuinely distinct.  It certainly bothers me less than the arcane/divine split (possibly because it seems a bit more common in actual fantasy literature).

Overall, though, I like magic to be relatively rare, mysterious, and simply 'magic'.
:wizard:

Quote from: jrientsMy main problem with the arcane/divine split in standard D&D is that not much healing magic is available unless you sign on with a god.  That's a critical game resource bounded by the setting in a way that just doesn't always work for me.

I had a whole setting I was working on at one point that explored what happened when a group of arcanists tried to unlock the secrets of divine magic.

Honestly, I don't mind the split, don't mind it at all.

One thing though, that I think would help, would simply be changing the linguistics.  Divine stuff isn't magic, it's miracles, prayers, gifts from the gods.  Monsters & Mazes did this, and as tiny and simple a system as it was, I always liked that little turn of phrase of giving clerics "prayers" instead of "spells".

Partly because in Western fantasy I tend to look to Western influences for the mythology, and quite simply, the very concept of "divine magic" is almsot blasphemous to anyone but the Kabbalists.  If a saint or a priest healed a man, it was by God's grace, not magic.  The term is all wrong.  

Also, if you're not looking to deal with the divine for your healing, Akrasia's "white and black" magic suggestion ain't half bad either.  Final Fantasy did that one, as did, of course, the pen and paper version, and it's a division I always liked.  I also liked that the hybrid magic lists with the Red and Blue mages as well.