Do you think that an RPG based on disney movies, if well produced and marketed, would:
1. end up having some kind of appeal to young would-be gamers (perhaps particularly girls)?
2. end up being a huge commercial failure?
3. end up being the subject of a massive campaign of condemnation by 'feminist gamers'?
4. end up being extremely popular with extremely creepy adult men?
1. Almost undoubtedly to the kids. Disney has almost unique broad spectrum appeal, though, so it's hard to say about girls. For adults, however, I expect sales to skew a good bit to the women's side. Whatever % of the hobby in general is women(I don't know the statistics.), I'd expect a good 10-15% more of the sales of this particular game to go to them.
2. I expect it would be a moderate success, but nowhere near D&D/Pathfinder levels. I expect it to have good initial sales, with them tapering off as people try and mostly fail to answer the question of what you even do in a used Disney setting. Kingdom Hearts works because it inserts all that third-party stuff that infects the worlds and shakes up the status quo(and visits multiple worlds in each installment), but . . . that's been done multiple times now. Perhaps good writers could figure out something . . . assuming what they write gets through approvals(gotta love the hoops for licensed products), but I wouldn't bet on it.
3. Massive, no, not even close. I expect a few vocal people to make a fuss, and a few vocal people to oppose them, and most people to tell both of them to shut up and move on with their lives.
4. Disney movies are specifically made for all audiences -- that's a huge part of their initial and continuing appeal -- and some of them have a huge nostalgia factor for people in their 30s to 50s(Little Mermaid, Beauty & the Beast, Aladdin, Lion King; remember those? Remember just how long ago they came out, too?), so I expect it to be pretty popular with men in general, though not quite as much so as women, unless whoever's in charge of production really fucks it up. And sure, some of them will be creepy. The creepy ones will latch onto anything.
1. I just feel like Disney would already be there if they thought there was money to be had
2. ...And since they are not, probably yes.
3. I think the there would be some chatter on boards, as usual, but small in comparison to what Disney faces on a regular basis.
4. Given that there is a My Little Pony TTRPG out there, and I haven't heard too much about it (publically) being an issue, I'm going to tentatively say no.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1028127Do you think that an RPG based on disney movies, if well produced and marketed, would:
1. end up having some kind of appeal to young would-be gamers (perhaps particularly girls)?
2. end up being a huge commercial failure?
3. end up being the subject of a massive campaign of condemnation by 'feminist gamers'?
4. end up being extremely popular with extremely creepy adult men?
5. Be an RPG oddity and shelf warmer.
As a father of daughters in the prime demo for Disney movies, I have a lot to say about this:
1. end up having some kind of appeal to young would-be gamers (perhaps particularly girls)?
Yes. Some boys will like them but Disney hasn't had cross gender appeal for their cartoon movies for years. Frozen, Tangled, Moana, etc are primarily targeting girls and are hugely popular with young girls.
2. end up being a huge commercial failure?
I think it would be a huge commercial success if built right. The system would have to be all inclusive and a "box" that can be sold in the toy departments and not the game stores. Think about HeroQuest (not the shitty knock off RPG out today), Dragon Strike, or AD&D First Quest.
3. end up being the subject of a massive campaign of condemnation by 'feminist gamers'?
I think it would be condemned by 'feminist' gamers that still stunted adolescents. A big issue with comicbooks and Disney stuff is that we have people in their 20's and 30's acting like this stuff is still for them and should be catering what they want. You'd then have the normal bullshit intersectional 'feminist' garbage that hates everything. But those people don't matter and aren't actually consumers of these products.
4. end up being extremely popular with extremely creepy adult men?
Yes. Are you familiar with My Little Pony? It has a huge audience of creepy "adult" men. I've literally seen two "men" argue over these toys at the Toys R us when I was there with my young daughter (aged 5) who wanted to get one of the toys.
One of the issues that the "kids" RPG that MCG put out was it was designed for adults to pretend to be kids. When I was 7-12 (the target market for a product like this) I wanted to use the worlds I like to have adventures like I see on TV or read in the comicbooks/novels. My daughters would love to have an adventure in the world of Disney princesses and would adventure in those worlds like I would in Middle-earth. The system needs to be self contained and quick to pick up (see First Quest, HeroQuest, or Dragon Strike) and the content/world needs to appeal to them.
I think it'd be a great product but would be ruined by the awful people in Seattle that make up the "thought leaders" in this industry.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1028127Do you think that an RPG based on disney movies, if well produced and marketed, would:
1. end up having some kind of appeal to young would-be gamers (perhaps particularly girls)?
2. end up being a huge commercial failure?
3. end up being the subject of a massive campaign of condemnation by 'feminist gamers'?
4. end up being extremely popular with extremely creepy adult men?
There are a huge range of possibilities of what an RPG based on Disney movies would be like. Regardless of the source material, what is the game-play and what sort of adventures are they like? Is it very rules-light for younger kids, more like Greg Stolze's Usagi Yojimbo or John Wick's Cat? Or is it more involved for teenagers and fans, perhaps like the Mouse Guard RPG? How are adventures handled? What sort of action is there?
In general, it seems like tabletop RPGs for pre-teens have difficulty succeeding in the market. I think that they usually depend on an adult GM who is both experienced at role-playing and good with kids, which is an uncommon type - and even for those that exist, they need a group. I've played a fair amount of games with kids, and they enjoy it greatly, but they don't run their own games among themselves. They will play pretend with each other around similar ideas, but they won't sit down and run a structured game.
I think a better bet for a broad market is a simple board or card game with RPG tie-in for pre-teens, and a tabletop RPG with simple but serious rules for adults, teens, and precocious pre-teens.
1. Yes - just putting Disney on the cover would do that with no other effort.
2. Not so long as they don't overreach. I could see Disney thinking that it would be a huge moneymaker and over-invest. But the base costs would be tiny since they have artwork coming out of their ears and could license a lite system which already exists. So long as they did that - it'd no doubt get decent returns for minimal investment.
3. Probably. People get crazy when you mess with their nostalgia, and some outspoken feminists (certainly not all) have issues with old-school Disney, which an RPG would no doubt emulate parts of.
4. Probably - but nearly everything is popular with creepers. It's a tiny % - it's just that the internet has made them visible.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1028127Do you think that an RPG based on disney movies, ...
Like Star Wars?
sorry.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1028127Do you think that an RPG based on disney movies, if well produced and marketed, would:
1. end up having some kind of appeal to young would-be gamers (perhaps particularly girls)?
2. end up being a huge commercial failure?
3. end up being the subject of a massive campaign of condemnation by 'feminist gamers'?
4. end up being extremely popular with extremely creepy adult men?
5. All the above.
5 would be my answer.
Its been tried before.
Disney isnt likely to try themselves because theres just no good market for it and the fanbase is currently still being assaulted by the insane "feminists" out there. any game would come under fire to. Disney though has been researching LARPs as of 2 years ago. I think they backed off when they came under fire for considering patenting LARPing. What they really wanted to patent was a sort of LARP organizer tech. But the proposal was so vaguely worded that things like forums or even DMs could fall under that description depending on how literal someone gets.
http://www.larping.org/feat/did-the-disney-corporation-just-patent-larp/ (http://www.larping.org/feat/did-the-disney-corporation-just-patent-larp/)
Quote from: RPGPundit;1028127Do you think that an RPG based on disney movies, if well produced and marketed, would:
1. end up having some kind of appeal to young would-be gamers (perhaps particularly girls)?
2. end up being a huge commercial failure?
3. end up being the subject of a massive campaign of condemnation by 'feminist gamers'?
4. end up being extremely popular with extremely creepy adult men?
#1 Maybe a bit. But the kind of girls who like RPGs are the kind of girls who like D&D.
#2 No
#3 No
#4 Probably!
Quote from: Ulairi;1028177One of the issues that the "kids" RPG that MCG put out was it was designed for adults to pretend to be kids.
These 'pretend to be kids' games often feel creepy to me (especially when discussed on rpgnet, creep central) and are definitely the opposite of what children want in an RPG. My son (10) loved Mentzer Red Box Basic D&D, he enjoys CRPGs like Skyrim and Fallout IV - and other power fantasy videogames I don't like (eg Just Cause, Shadow of Mordor) too. Feeling weak and helpless is the opposite of what children want in a game.
I think if you want a Disney game that would appeal to a wide range audience who are already familiar with the concept of an RPG via computer games, then base it on the Kingdom Hearts games. There are several titles and extensive lore which fans are familiar with. The base setting for a pen and paper game is already there. The fan base is already there. Since the game itself is a Nintendo title collaborating with Disney before the House of Mouse acquired Star Wars and Marvel, the series is already kid friendly and accessible to all ages. I think this would bypass the worries of 1 and 3, and possibly mitigate 2 and 4.
Quote from: S'mon;1028299These 'pretend to be kids' games often feel creepy to me (especially when discussed on rpgnet, creep central) and are definitely the opposite of what children want in an RPG. My son (10) loved Mentzer Red Box Basic D&D, he enjoys CRPGs like Skyrim and Fallout IV - and other power fantasy videogames I don't like (eg Just Cause, Shadow of Mordor) too. Feeling weak and helpless is the opposite of what children want in a game.
One of the settings included with the first release of True20 was Razor in the Apple. It was kids against monsters. If there was no appeal to kids to want to be characters who are also kids, then there would be no point in fiction like Harry Potter which got an entire generation of 90s kids to read books, not to mention Manga and Anime where like 90% of the characters are kids.
In the case of the latter, Manga and Anime are HUGE. That fandom tramples pen and paper RPGs. Completely demolishes it. But the thing is, those titles often have video game tie ins, which is a much more lucrative business than a niche hobby like pen and paper RPGs. Look at something like Pokemon. Yes it is a video game series, but the related anime and manga are enormous. Oh, and of course the elephant in the room which is the card game. Pokemon is totally an RPG, and always has been, with mechanics which are more than a little borrowed from D&D. When kids play the games or card games together, they don't want story. They want to battle.
So a Disney based RPG could work but if you want something that appeals to kids, look at video games that appeal to them. They want to be able to battle, and story is secondary.
Quote from: Ulairi;1028177One of the issues that the "kids" RPG that MCG put out was it was designed for adults to pretend to be kids. When I was 7-12 (the target market for a product like this) I wanted to use the worlds I like to have adventures like I see on TV or read in the comicbooks/novels. My daughters would love to have an adventure in the world of Disney princesses and would adventure in those worlds like I would in Middle-earth. The system needs to be self contained and quick to pick up (see First Quest, HeroQuest, or Dragon Strike) and the content/world needs to appeal to them.
I think it'd be a great product but would be ruined by the awful people in Seattle that make up the "thought leaders" in this industry.
Quote from: S'mon;1028299These 'pretend to be kids' games often feel creepy to me (especially when discussed on rpgnet, creep central) and are definitely the opposite of what children want in an RPG. My son (10) loved Mentzer Red Box Basic D&D, he enjoys CRPGs like Skyrim and Fallout IV - and other power fantasy videogames I don't like (eg Just Cause, Shadow of Mordor) too. Feeling weak and helpless is the opposite of what children want in a game.
Just to be clear, you're talking about "No Thank You, Evil", right?
https://www.montecookgames.com/no-thank-you-evil/
I've seen it being run at the kids room in conventions. It seemed to me to be targeted younger, more like ages 5-9. It's self-described as being for ages 5+. I didn't find it creepy, personally. That said, my kids also had zero interest in games like that when they were that age. When he was 8 or 9, my son's favorite was Monster Island, which is a kaiju RPG/wargame.
https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11151.phtml
I highly doubt there's anyone far enough up the food chain at Disney who knows what an RPG even is. I mean, I think they might understand that, like World of Warcraft is in fact a thing (or rather, was? I heard it was kind of dying off, but I could be wrong. I mean, I don't see ads for it really in other media anymore, but I digress), and that D&D is a game IP but beyond that, no.
Sidebar: back in the late 1970s and early 1980s at the toy store in Disney Village at Lake Buena Vista here in Florida, you could buy D&D! Boxed Basic sets (Moldvay basic), and as late as '99 or so at Tatooine Traders (a gift shop next to Star Tours) in Disney Hollywood Studios you could buy all kinds of West End Games Star Wars RPG products including Grenadier Miniatures. Also, Disney I guess did a deal with Grenadier and they made a set of 54mm Snow White miniatures in a box that wasn't unlike the "Gold Line" boxes for TSR AD&D miniatures (except it was blue).
Quote from: thedungeondelver;1028336I highly doubt there's anyone far enough up the food chain at Disney who knows what an RPG even is. I mean, I think they might understand that, like World of Warcraft is in fact a thing (or rather, was? I heard it was kind of dying off, but I could be wrong. I mean, I don't see ads for it really in other media anymore, but I digress), and that D&D is a game IP but beyond that, no.
I suspect that TTRPGs, miniatures games, some kind of HeroClix-like game, and Disney MMOs have all been studied to death, along with the Disney-themed toys, board games, and video games which absolutely have come to market are all well detailed in some dossier in some marketing department office in Florida (or California? Where ever they are headquartered, corporately). Disney knows their market to the degree of a Machiavellian genius. I just think they (accurately) surmised that it would be a niche product and any profit would be less than the latest Frozen iPhone game or something and not worth any potential complications.
Frozen Free Fall is listed as a top game for iPhone so it probably crushes most RPGs. :D
Quote from: Krimson;1028348Frozen Free Fall is listed as a top game for iPhone so it probably crushes most RPGs. :D
Yeah that thing probably has more installed users and players than there ever were or will be people who bought and play D&D of any kind, combined!
Quote from: jhkim;1028333Just to be clear, you're talking about "No Thank You, Evil", right?
Not specifically, no. From what little I know of that game I don't get a creepy vibe. Was thinking more of Little Fears.
In my experience, most kids don't want kids' games. That is, not games specifically made for kids.
At least, not after they get to the age where they'd actually be capable of playing in an RPG.
I look forward to playing The Black Hole with the cast of Tinkerbell and Friends. :p
Maybe also a bit of The Black Cauldron with The New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh. :D
Quote from: RPGPundit;1028545In my experience, most kids don't want kids' games. That is, not games specifically made for kids.
At least, not after they get to the age where they'd actually be capable of playing in an RPG.
Agree, for the most part. I started D&D at 8, and wanted to play D&D. It is fortunate in the extreme that my folks kinda said, 'no we're not going to buy you a whole new version of what you already have' such that I stuck with BECMI. Otherwise I would have moved to AD&D simply because it was 'advanced.' That's how much kids want to be playing the adult version of things.
I do recall sometime in the 90s, Cyberpunk came out with
Cybergeneration, where you played the kids of the characters you played in the original game. I wonder if it was supposed to be marketed to kids? A friend picked it up, and I think we appreciated the idea of a lighter-and-softer (and less lethal) version of CP2020, with maybe a touch of the same appeal that lets a grown adult (who can drive a car) enjoy go-karting. Still a very confusing (in 'who is this for?') product.
Quote from: jhkim;1028333Just to be clear, you're talking about "No Thank You, Evil", right?
https://www.montecookgames.com/no-thank-you-evil/
I've seen it being run at the kids room in conventions. It seemed to me to be targeted younger, more like ages 5-9. It's self-described as being for ages 5+. I didn't find it creepy, personally. That said, my kids also had zero interest in games like that when they were that age. When he was 8 or 9, my son's favorite was Monster Island, which is a kaiju RPG/wargame.
https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11151.phtml
That was my point. My youngest daughter is 5. She has zero interest in that game. I showed it to her. She'd much rather have something that is specific to her interests which right now is PJ Masks, Disney Princesses (which the above would hit) and what her older sister likes which is Palladium Fantasy.
What's really got me in on that a game built and self contained for kids around a property they like could work is the old Decipher Lord of the Rings Adventure Game. I found my box set and ran it for my whole family (wife, two girls, and mother in law) late last year during a snow storm and they all had a lot of fun. It has paper minis, maps, etc and is self contained. Something like that but around the Disney "world" and geared towards the 7-12 year old crowd would be a huge hit.
"No Thank You, Evil" I've seen at cons listed but never running at a full table. I looked at it and I don't think it's built for what kids actually want but what adults thinking they would like if they were children...if you get me o nthe difference.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1028346I suspect that TTRPGs, miniatures games, some kind of HeroClix-like game, and Disney MMOs have all been studied to death, along with the Disney-themed toys, board games, and video games which absolutely have come to market are all well detailed in some dossier in some marketing department office in Florida (or California? Where ever they are headquartered, corporately). Disney knows their market to the degree of a Machiavellian genius. I just think they (accurately) surmised that it would be a niche product and any profit would be less than the latest Frozen iPhone game or something and not worth any potential complications.
Disney puts their crap on everything. They (rarely) build it themselves. This wouldn't require them to do anything other than cash a check.
The Disney Infinity RPG is the game you all are talking about. Check out the sales data yourselves;).
It's just never been released for tabletop, because why would anyone bother with pocket change:D?
Quote from: Ulairi;1028563Disney puts their crap on everything. They (rarely) build it themselves. This wouldn't require them to do anything other than cash a check.
Not everything. Some rather well thought out, and specific categories of things that epitomize the low-risk strategy. Sure you will find Mickey Mouse toys, playsets, children's furniture, backpacks, watches, breakfast cereal, and all that paraphernalia, but if you find something equivalent to the infamous Hello Kitty 'personal massagers,' it will be an internet joke or an illegal knockoff. Disney plays it safe. And while they would have to do any work other than cashing a check, they would still face any potential reputational risk that anything bad happening might incur. Pundey's
"4. end up being extremely popular with extremely creepy adult men? " sounds a little unlikely to me, but a 1% chance of it happening and a few articles and think-pieces doing -0.01% to their overall business would still probably dwarf any potential benefits.
I think if it were actually supported with supplements, there would be a lot people might want to run. Everyone in the US (and in many parts of the world) grew up on Disney. We all know the characters and the settings. And there are always the movies and shows that resonated with some people more than others (I can think of a few people I know who might like the idea of a Ducktales campaign for example). I could also see a mixed up Disney sandbox having an appeal (a bit like the Mixed up Mother Goose game from Sierra).
I thought AD&D second edition was THE Disney rpg :D
Quote from: AsenRG;1028568The Disney Infinity RPG is the game you all are talking about. Check out the sales data yourselves;).
It's just never been released for tabletop, because why would anyone bother with pocket change:D?
Which is funny because Disney Infinity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disney_Infinity) is being retired, so even lucrative video games have their limits.
But if you want to know the sandbox game the kids still play, it's Minecraft.
Honestly I think there is more room for original IP. Use Disney as a template, compile a list of related tropes that you think are important to the IP, and see how they could be assembled as an OSR. Make NPCs and maybe prefab characters which can also be templates that are fun and interesting, and build a fantasy world around it. Remember, there may be light and fluffy, but there has always been darkness and death in Disney movies. Look at the source material but also consider what is relevant in our day and age.
Having an option to play kids or teens is not a bad thing. But it does not have to be the only thing. If looking at anime doesn't seem desirable try limiting it to stuff by Studio Ghibli. Look at the kind of protagonists they have. Those movies have a very Disney feel as well, which also fits in with Japanese culture because that is where they are made. But many of the worlds in those movies are not Japan. Also remember the Disney roots that seeded modern anime and manga in the first place.
Quote from: S'mon;1028299These 'pretend to be kids' games often feel creepy to me (especially when discussed on rpgnet, creep central) and are definitely the opposite of what children want in an RPG. My son (10) loved Mentzer Red Box Basic D&D, he enjoys CRPGs like Skyrim and Fallout IV - and other power fantasy videogames I don't like (eg Just Cause, Shadow of Mordor) too. Feeling weak and helpless is the opposite of what children want in a game.
I am in S'monious agreement with both of these points. In fact, I'm glad someone else thinks the same about the 'pretend kids' games, as I thought it was ME who was being weird. There's no problem with kids wanting to play fantasy kids: Beyond the Wall does it brilliantly and I'm sure there are other examples. But the games I've seen discussed on TBP skew too psychosexual for me.
Overall, I think Disney is probably gun-shy over something that a) could splode like 5e and make them a ton of money or b) could turn out to be a satanic-panic scale PR boob. Also, they aren't exactly known for their "Yeah, just riff off our IPs for your fun, kids" approach to their business. Wasn't it the latest Marvel RPG that they refused to allow character generation in? So a Disney RPG might mean playing only Disney characters, which I'm sure has legs, but those sorts of RPGs historically haven't done so well, and I'm also sure Disney knows that.
Quote from: Gorilla_Zod;1028600Wasn't it the latest Marvel RPG that they refused to allow character generation in? So a Disney RPG might mean playing only Disney characters, which I'm sure has legs, but those sorts of RPGs historically haven't done so well, and I'm also sure Disney knows that.
Yeah, Disney is still weird about their IP. The Disney Infinity game which people mentioned was like that. If you were playing the Star Wars levels in that game, you could only use the Star Wars characters, despite the fact that all the characters in the game worked exactly the same. There was no technical reason you couldn't have Captain America and Tinkerbell fighting Darth Vader, it's just the Disney specifically forbid that from ever working.
With Disney Princesses however, Disney is a bit more flexible. Sophia the First is sort of a genre hopping show where Sofia visits all the other real princesses.
OTOH, I do think that the it needs to be an "RPG" considering the vast amounts of boardgames with character advancement in them currently available.
Quote from: Ulairi;1028562"No Thank You, Evil" I've seen at cons listed but never running at a full table. I looked at it and I don't think it's built for what kids actually want but what adults thinking they would like if they were children...if you get me o nthe difference.
Yup. I wrote a whole blog entry about that once. It's utterly and absolutely a bowdlerized sanitized delusion written by adults imagining what kids would enjoy.
Philip Pullman once pointed out that children generally hate being children. They're sick of it. They want to be (what they imagine it means to be) grown up. C. S. Lewis, who Pullman hates, once defined one of the Childish Things that St.Paul was talking about "putting away" obviously included that very 'desire to be very grown up'.
I'd add to this that kids beyond the youngest toddler ages generally hate adventures that are sanitized. G-rated movies exist because parents want their kids to watch that; every kid desperately wants to watch movies with scary things and lots of violence. Even the girliest of girls (or the sissiest of sissy boys) can only stand so much saccharine cutesy-poo without it having some kind of subversive stuff mixed in.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1028569Pundey's "4. end up being extremely popular with extremely creepy adult men? " sounds a little unlikely to me, but a 1% chance of it happening and a few articles and think-pieces doing -0.01% to their overall business would still probably dwarf any potential benefits.
Well, I didn't expect My Little Pony to be a huge hit with 20-something adult male virgins living in basements, but that's the world we live in.
Yeah, I'd give it a go just because of how iconic they are. Hell I just got (for free) the Planeshift:Equestra document for 5e that allows you to play in the My Little Pony world. It helps that I have a 9 year old daughter who loves D&D :)
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1028607Yeah, Disney is still weird about their IP. The Disney Infinity game which people mentioned was like that. If you were playing the Star Wars levels in that game, you could only use the Star Wars characters, despite the fact that all the characters in the game worked exactly the same. There was no technical reason you couldn't have Captain America and Tinkerbell fighting Darth Vader, it's just the Disney specifically forbid that from ever working.
With Disney Princesses however, Disney is a bit more flexible. Sophia the First is sort of a genre hopping show where Sofia visits all the other real princesses.
OTOH, I do think that the it needs to be an "RPG" considering the vast amounts of boardgames with character advancement in them currently available.
It makes perfect sense sales-wise:).
If you want to play a character in Disney Infinity, you have to buy a figure, and put it in a slot that you connect to your game. Want to explore the Star Wars parts of the game? Pay extra;).
If you've got kids, it pays to buy them a package deal with several figures. Just sharing personal experience here:D!
I would base it on some of the classic movies. I always thought that there's something to the dark/light mood and humor in Pinocchio that could be interesting to try in a game.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1028787Yup. I wrote a whole blog entry about that once. It's utterly and absolutely a bowdlerized sanitized delusion written by adults imagining what kids would enjoy.
Philip Pullman once pointed out that children generally hate being children. They're sick of it. They want to be (what they imagine it means to be) grown up. C. S. Lewis, who Pullman hates, once defined one of the Childish Things that St.Paul was talking about "putting away" obviously included that very 'desire to be very grown up'.
I'd add to this that kids beyond the youngest toddler ages generally hate adventures that are sanitized. G-rated movies exist because parents want their kids to watch that; every kid desperately wants to watch movies with scary things and lots of violence. Even the girliest of girls (or the sissiest of sissy boys) can only stand so much saccharine cutesy-poo without it having some kind of subversive stuff mixed in.
Pundit's blog entry, and the hilarious reaction in comments - http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2016/02/a-note-on-rpgs-for-kids.html
Pullman & Lewis - ironically, Lewis' child characters do adult stuff like lead armies into battle, while Pullman's child characters get told what to do by nanny-state adults*. The ending of His Dark Materials was one of the most grotesque travesties I've ever read.
*But it's ok because they're on the side of Satan. No questioning Authority, as long as it's Satanic authority!
Yup, that was the blog entry I was talking about.
Quote from: S'mon;1028877The ending of His Dark Materials was one of the most grotesque travesties I've ever read.
Oh, you caught that, too? I saw a lot of people praising that series(which was quite good for the first 2 books, I admit), but almost nobody brought that up! When asked about what the 2 main characters -- both of whom had recently turned 13 in the books -- got up to on their own in that one chapter, he gave one of those "I'm not saying they did; and I'm not saying they didn't" non-answers. It was incredibly gross and soured me on the whole series.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1029386Oh, you caught that, too? I saw a lot of people praising that series(which was quite good for the first 2 books, I admit), but almost nobody brought that up! When asked about what the 2 main characters -- both of whom had recently turned 13 in the books -- got up to on their own in that one chapter, he gave one of those "I'm not saying they did; and I'm not saying they didn't" non-answers. It was incredibly gross and soured me on the whole series.
Oh, for me the grotesque travesty wasn't the children canoodling (I assumed this wasn't actual sex, which I don't think is really implied), it was their unquestioned obedience to Satan and to Lyra's child-murdering father. I was raised on Michael Moorcock fantasy sagas where the message is Think For Yourself; whereas Pullman just wants to replace unquestioning obedience to Catholic Authority with unquestioning obedience to Marxist Authority.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1028787Yup. I wrote a whole blog entry about that once. It's utterly and absolutely a bowdlerized sanitized delusion written by adults imagining what kids would enjoy.
Philip Pullman once pointed out that children generally hate being children. They're sick of it. They want to be (what they imagine it means to be) grown up. C. S. Lewis, who Pullman hates, once defined one of the Childish Things that St.Paul was talking about "putting away" obviously included that very 'desire to be very grown up'.
I'd add to this that kids beyond the youngest toddler ages generally hate adventures that are sanitized. G-rated movies exist because parents want their kids to watch that; every kid desperately wants to watch movies with scary things and lots of violence. Even the girliest of girls (or the sissiest of sissy boys) can only stand so much saccharine cutesy-poo without it having some kind of subversive stuff mixed in.
I've two daughters. Both are girly but one is way more girly than the other. They do like G movies. It isn't because that's what the parents want them to watch but they build the content for them. Girls tend to like pretty things (princesses) and like adventures around that. It's the twenty somethings in Brooklyn and Seattle that think the way to broaden products is to make the women fat, ugly, and manly.
If my daughter could have a game set in the Sofia the First world (which is a princess spanning property) and play a princess going on adventures and defeating monsters, she'd love it. She wouldn't want the princess to be in full body armor but a princess dress.
Disney will put their name on almost anything I think a big reason why we won't see a Disney RPG is that there isn't a channel to sell it in. Toys R Us is dead. Barns and Noble doesn't know how to sell RPGs and most LGS are places that are not run by people that think about making money and selling things.
Well, you have a point there. Up to a certain age, at least, little girls do like cutesy-poo pretty things. But even there, they still have an attitude of wanting to be grown up. In a lot of the shows made for them, the girls in it are either a lot older than the target audience (JEM, for example, which my sister was obsessed with when she was a little girl), or they're somehow independent, and adults are either absent or incompetent.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1030134Well, you have a point there. Up to a certain age, at least, little girls do like cutesy-poo pretty things. But even there, they still have an attitude of wanting to be grown up. In a lot of the shows made for them, the girls in it are either a lot older than the target audience (JEM, for example, which my sister was obsessed with when she was a little girl), or they're somehow independent, and adults are either absent or incompetent.
Girls like aspirational things just as much as boys. Instead of aspiring to be He-Man or a member of GI Joes they aspire the mirror image but around "pretty" or "real life" one of the big things I've noticed about kids is that girls tend to play and recreate "real life" much more than boys. Which is why I don't think we will ever see parity of the sexes in role-playing games. I don't think women are even going to be as interested in elf games as playing real life. It starts when they are little and it's a big reason even with video games that girls start to drop off as they start to mature. They get much more interested in real life than boys do.
But, I do think, a Disney game targeted to what little kids like (not what hipsters like or think they would like as kids) would do well. One of my biggest issues with kid content today is that it's written for people that never developed past the age of 12. They are making "kids" content for people their ages because they haven't grown up.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1028545In my experience, most kids don't want kids' games. That is, not games specifically made for kids.
At least, not after they get to the age where they'd actually be capable of playing in an RPG.
I sure didn't want to play TSR's "Kid game" offering when I was a kid (Fantasy Forest): I wanted Dungeon! at the very least. AD&D though, that was my prime goal.
Quote from: Ulairi;1030159Girls like aspirational things just as much as boys. Instead of aspiring to be He-Man or a member of GI Joes they aspire the mirror image but around "pretty" or "real life" one of the big things I've noticed about kids is that girls tend to play and recreate "real life" much more than boys. Which is why I don't think we will ever see parity of the sexes in role-playing games. I don't think women are even going to be as interested in elf games as playing real life. It starts when they are little and it's a big reason even with video games that girls start to drop off as they start to mature. They get much more interested in real life than boys do.
Empirically, this seems suspect. There isn't great data on tabletop RPGs, but in the U.S. video game market, girls and women have varied from 38% to 48% of players over the past dozen years. That's under 50%, but the year-to-year variation is larger than the difference. They also engage in fictional books and movies at similar rates or higher than boys. They engage at different rates for different genres, but they don't shy away from either fiction or games - even just restricting to current U.S. trends.
Quote from: Ulairi;1030159But, I do think, a Disney game targeted to what little kids like (not what hipsters like or think they would like as kids) would do well. One of my biggest issues with kid content today is that it's written for people that never developed past the age of 12. They are making "kids" content for people their ages because they haven't grown up.
It's possible, though I have doubts. It is very difficult to get out a tabletop RPG that is successful at all with either boys or girls. Forty years in, and D&D and offshoots still dominate the market. This is particularly true in a non-established genre. RPGs these days tend to sell to only established RPG players.
Quote from: jhkim;1030312Empirically, this seems suspect. There isn't great data on tabletop RPGs, but in the U.S. video game market, girls and women have varied from 38% to 48% of players over the past dozen years. That's under 50%, but the year-to-year variation is larger than the difference. ......
Are you sure it's a year-to-year difference, not a difference in methodology of the studies? I have heard of huge differences depending on if you're talking about games on the iPhone vs PC games or console games.
Quote from: Trond;1030320Are you sure it's a year-to-year difference, not a difference in methodology of the studies? I have heard of huge differences depending on if you're talking about games on the iPhone vs PC games or console games.
The specific graph I was thinking of is here:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/232383/gender-split-of-us-computer-and-video-gamers/
which implies a singular source, but I can't access the source currently. The results roughly match with other sources I've seen for given years, but I can't directly point this variation to a verifiable source. So I'd have to put this into the "maybe".
Here are some articles and studies which imply significantly changing trends in recent years:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/22/adult-women-gamers-outnumber-teenage-boys/?utm_term=.a46d45ea0d21
http://www.alistdaily.com/strategy/female-gamer-trends/
Quote from: Trond;1030320Are you sure it's a year-to-year difference, not a difference in methodology of the studies? I have heard of huge differences depending on if you're talking about games on the iPhone vs PC games or console games.
There are huge differences in the types and platforms. When we use generic "gamer" words it looks better until we start to narrow in on the types of games.
Quote from: jhkim;1030324The specific graph I was thinking of is here:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/232383/gender-split-of-us-computer-and-video-gamers/
which implies a singular source, but I can't access the source currently. The results roughly match with other sources I've seen for given years, but I can't directly point this variation to a verifiable source. So I'd have to put this into the "maybe".
Here are some articles and studies which imply significantly changing trends in recent years:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/22/adult-women-gamers-outnumber-teenage-boys/?utm_term=.a46d45ea0d21
http://www.alistdaily.com/strategy/female-gamer-trends/
Your second link kind of supports the types of games women play are quite different than men. Women and girls play games but as women age the types of games aren't the same as boys. It's like all kids play Mario when they are younger but by high school girls are playing mobile games while the boys still play on consoles
Judgeing from my 9 year old myself I would never got really interested ttrpgs by a game like that. I was more sold the on idea of a medival life-simulator about knights, samurai and battling orcs. That and metal-as-hell artwork before I knew was metal was. But I am not a girl and all kids are not the same. Noted.
I generally don't believe in the notion of trying getting either girls or women into ttrpgs by just making games based on certain popcultural IP's that appeals to girls and women. Since the appeal of ttrpg medium itself falls on the male side in general. There is always outliers. And that is OK. Making ttrpgs based on IP's like Twilight, Frozen etc will not change that and will ultimately end up in obscurity.
So I go with option nr 4. This kind of things probably mostly attract old creepy dudes that also collect manga series about japanese school girls and My Little Pony merchandise. The other main potential demografic would of course be gamer-dads who want to introduce their kids to the hobby. But those generally don't need it since they rather just run some version of D&D adapted in what ways appropriate.
Quote from: jhkim;1030312Empirically, this seems suspect. There isn't great data on tabletop RPGs, but in the U.S. video game market, girls and women have varied from 38% to 48% of players over the past dozen years. .
Are those the SAME video games, though? Because I've got the feeling that a lot more guys are playing Call of Duty, and a lot more girls are playing Candy Crush.
Mind you, I don't play Call of Duty and I'm a world champion at Candy Crush, so I'm not saying that there's a total divide.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1030701Are those the SAME video games, though? Because I've got the feeling that a lot more guys are playing Call of Duty, and a lot more girls are playing Candy Crush.
Mind you, I don't play Call of Duty and I'm a world champion at Candy Crush, so I'm not saying that there's a total divide.
To add to that - even if women are 38-48% of the market, that doesn't necessarily mean that they spend 38-48% of the $. (I have no idea if they do - I'm just pointing out a potential gap in that stat.)
Quote from: UlairiI don't think women are ever going to be as interested in elf games as playing real life. It starts when they are little and it's a big reason even with video games that girls start to drop off as they start to mature. They get much more interested in real life than boys do.
Quote from: jhkimEmpirically, this seems suspect. There isn't great data on tabletop RPGs, but in the U.S. video game market, girls and women have varied from 38% to 48% of players over the past dozen years.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1030701Are those the SAME video games, though? Because I've got the feeling that a lot more guys are playing Call of Duty, and a lot more girls are playing Candy Crush.
Mind you, I don't play Call of Duty and I'm a world champion at Candy Crush, so I'm not saying that there's a total divide.
No, they don't play the same video games at the same rates. But are you claiming that Candy Crush is "real life"?!???
To recap - Ulairi's claim is that girls are inherently more interested in real life than boys are, thus they will never be significantly interested in tabletop RPGs. I'm arguing back against that. As far as I can see, girls and women engage in games and fiction to roughly the same degree - though not always the same games and fiction. Which, to the topic of the thread, means that it could be worth a shot to try tabletop RPGs like a Disney RPG that appeals more to girls.
I'm sure that if there comes a time when women are 48% of tabletop RPG players, then it will also be true that they don't play all the same games at the same rates, but there will be plenty of overlap.
Quote from: jhkim;1030785No, they don't play the same video games at the same rates. But are you claiming that Candy Crush is "real life"?!???
To recap - Ulairi's claim is that girls are inherently more interested in real life than boys are, thus they will never be significantly interested in tabletop RPGs. I'm arguing back against that. As far as I can see, girls and women engage in games and fiction to roughly the same degree - though not always the same games and fiction. Which, to the topic of the thread, means that it could be worth a shot to try tabletop RPGs like a Disney RPG that appeals more to girls.
I'm sure that if there comes a time when women are 48% of tabletop RPG players, then it will also be true that they don't play all the same games at the same rates, but there will be plenty of overlap.
The types of games that women, on average, tend to enjoy, are bite sized games that can easily be put away. There is evidence that boys and girls tend to enjoy the same sorts of games as they are younger and as girls mature and hit puberty they stop playing those sorts of games.
Here is a chart about what sort of video games women enjoy:
http://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/
It's hard to compare video games to table top games. But, RPGs, unlike board games, require much more of a time investment to learn, play, and continue.
If we can collect a few thousand dollars we can purchase this:
https://www.researchandmarkets.com/research/bfrmw9/global_board
women enjoy games. Just not the same games that men enjoy at the same rates. Since we tend to be a RPG focused forum (and more specifically a D&D and OSR forum) I don't think we will ever see women close to parity in D&D type games. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1030738To add to that - even if women are 38-48% of the market, that doesn't necessarily mean that they spend 38-48% of the $. (I have no idea if they do - I'm just pointing out a potential gap in that stat.)
This is an interesting thing regarding consumption pattern between men and women and tabletop rpgs. I have been gaming for 2/3 of my life, been playing on local gaming clubs, went to cons for many years, worked some time in a FLGS and a good friend of me owns one.
Amongst all women I have met in the hobby I could probably only remember three women ever buying rpg books. One of the was a game designer and the only one having anywhere near comparable rpg consumtion of a general male rpg hobbyist. One had exactly two core books in her own collection and have no interest ever buying a new game or supplement. Third one would be my long-time girlfriend who I introduced to tabletop rpgs and bought exactly two games on her own but never had any interest in running.
It is not that there is never any women in gaming groups at cons, local gaming clubs etc. Most I've met played Pathfinder, 5e and Vampire (though mainly LARPers) , some rare speciment who's into CoC and a couple into story-game impro-theater. But thing is they don't buy books. Only fancy dice sets.
Of course this is all anecdote, IMHO etc etc. It would be very interesting seeing some serious numbers on this.
I remember the World of Darkness stuff seemingly to be big with the ladies in the 90's. From people at my high school, gencon, gaming stores, clubs, etc. I don't know if they moved on to different games when the fad ended or left the hobby all together. I do think LARPing is a hobby that probably has a much larger share of women compared to traditional pen and paper RPGs but I don't really consider RPGs and LARPs to be the same hobby.
Quote from: jhkimTo recap - Ulairi's claim is that girls are inherently more interested in real life than boys are, thus they will never be significantly interested in tabletop RPGs. I'm arguing back against that. As far as I can see, girls and women engage in games and fiction to roughly the same degree - though not always the same games and fiction. Which, to the topic of the thread, means that it could be worth a shot to try tabletop RPGs like a Disney RPG that appeals more to girls.
Quote from: Ulairi;1030799The types of games that women, on average, tend to enjoy, are bite sized games that can easily be put away. There is evidence that boys and girls tend to enjoy the same sorts of games as they are younger and as girls mature and hit puberty they stop playing those sorts of games.
Here is a chart about what sort of video games women enjoy:
http://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/
It's hard to compare video games to table top games. But, RPGs, unlike board games, require much more of a time investment to learn, play, and continue.
Well, that's different than what you said earlier - which was that girls are more connected to real life. But OK, that sounds more plausible to me. General comments:
1) It is informative, but I would be wary of extrapolating too much of absolutes from details of video game data. The percentage of women playing video games has changed significantly from decade to decade. It shows one way that things can go, but some of the state has to do with current state of the video game design, and less to do with absolutes about how women are inherently different than men.
2) I agree that tabletop RPGs tend to be high investment, with big 200+ page rulebooks and long multi-hour sessions. It's possible that some lower-investment variations might be a better fit - particularly for younger players like a Disney RPG.
3) On the other hand, larps are often higher investment - with detailed rules as well as costumes and organizing and more. Despite this, larps often have a higher ratio of women involved than in tabletop. So it might not be high investment so much as the type of investment.
Quote from: Ulairi;1030799women enjoy games. Just not the same games that men enjoy at the same rates. Since we tend to be a RPG focused forum (and more specifically a D&D and OSR forum) I don't think we will ever see women close to parity in D&D type games. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
I think it's hard to picture change of any sort. Forty years after the birth of role-playing, the dominant game is still D&D and variants - with other genres being a distant second. The closest thing to a real change was World of Darkness, which never overtook D&D. Still, that shouldn't keep us from wondering about a successful Disney RPG and what it might look like. It's pretty remote that there will be a significant change, I think, but still possible.
Quote from: jhkim;1030842The closest thing to a real change was World of Darkness, which never overtook D&D.
Wasn't it beating D&D for awhile in the 90's? Though that was partially because D&D was having TSR business drama dragging it down.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1030843Wasn't it beating D&D for awhile in the 90's? Though that was partially because D&D was having TSR business drama dragging it down.
As always, I'm not sure if we know the actual number, but the prevailing wisdom I had heard was that Pathfinder beeting 4e was the first time D&D wasn't in the #1 slot, although I guess I don't know if that would be in comparison to World of Darkness or to each WoD game individually.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1030881As always, I'm not sure if we know the actual number, but the prevailing wisdom I had heard was that Pathfinder beeting 4e was the first time D&D wasn't in the #1 slot, although I guess I don't know if that would be in comparison to World of Darkness or to each WoD game individually.
I don't know if Pathfinder was consistently beating D&D just like I don't know of WoD was consistently beating D&D in the 90's. I do know that Pathfinder and WoD had periods were they rivaled D&D which doesn't happen very frequently. But, in the 90's there was another RPG boom where games were selling in the hundreds of thousands of copies outside of D&D.
Quote from: Teodrik;1030336I generally don't believe in the notion of trying getting either girls or women into ttrpgs by just making games based on certain popcultural IP's that appeals to girls and women. Since the appeal of ttrpg medium itself falls on the male side in general.
I have three daughters in elementary school and, naturally, they have been game players all their lives. While they do play video games, they mainly want to play games like Minecraft or Disney Infinity where they can build stuff. They'll spend hours making huge castles out of pink blocks. Usually up in the sky.
As for tabletop games, we are currently running through a sort of RPG-lite game called Stuffed Fables. The game is a dungeon crawler but there's a story element, usually in the form of read-aloud text and some choose-your-response type cards (forex, "you see another doll that's hurt, do you give it some of your stuffiing").
They play this game (and other RPGs) as First Person roleplaying. They will describe their actions as "I do this" or "I am almost dead". [As a note, this is the more old school way of viewing things] which is similar to how they do RPGs.
Back to the main topic, a Disney RPG doesn't have to be a kids game where you play kid characters. Since most Disney Princesses are the age that they can get married (you know, 16+), it would make sense that your characters in such a game would be at least in high school (which might was well be an adult in the eyes of an elementary school kid).
As I mentioned before, considering the popularity of games like Stuffed Fables and Gloomhaven, it would make more financial sense to make a tabletop boardgame with RPG elements than an actual RPG since RPGs are all but dead.
Quote from: jhkim;1030785No, they don't play the same video games at the same rates. But are you claiming that Candy Crush is "real life"?!???
No. I'm not claiming that.
I am claiming that there's something disingenuous in just claiming that "women and girls play 48% of video games" as if they are playing the same video games, because this incomplete claim is then used to justify the idea that Dungeon-crawls and First-person-shooters should be RADICALLY CHANGED to "appeal to female gamers". When in fact, female gamers are mostly not interested in those sorts of games at all, and the real agenda is just to ruin the appeal of those games to MALE GAMERS, who the people using that statistic desperately want to punish for being male and liking things that are mostly of interest to men, and that they thus believe to be evil and should not exist.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1031310I am claiming that there's something disingenuous in just claiming that "women and girls play 48% of video games" as if they are playing the same video games, because this incomplete claim is then used to justify the idea that Dungeon-crawls and First-person-shooters should be RADICALLY CHANGED to "appeal to female gamers". When in fact, female gamers are mostly not interested in those sorts of games at all, and the real agenda is just to ruin the appeal of those games to MALE GAMERS, who the people using that statistic desperately want to punish for being male and liking things that are mostly of interest to men, and that they thus believe to be evil and should not exist.
Should D&D be radically changed to appeal to female gamers? No, I don't think so. But what we're talking about here - the topic of the thread - is a
Disney RPG, which would presumably be quite different from D&D. When talking about a Disney RPG, I think the statistic about female gamers is very relevant.
A Disney RPG won't be about ruining the appeal of games to male gamers - it would be a new thing.
Meanwhile in the 5e Monster Manual. No one plays D&D like Gaston! (https://m.imgur.com/gallery/mGYnX)
In A way there all ready are some Disney rpgs to an extent I know of A few princess rpgs that are very much aping Disney princesses and then there's fairy's vs pirates (I think thats what it's called) that's totally aping the Disney fairies (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzie0QzmIWo) license .
I suppose there might be some pseudo-disney RPGs, but none that has been a big hit.