I am composing a review of "Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand," a book from White Wolf in the early 1990s. Though not as bad as its reputation suggests, it is not good. I am wondering if anyone here knows anything about its composition or the back story to its composition, and if you will share this story.
Thanks.
Quote from: GrumpyReviews;706429I am composing a review of "Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand," a book from White Wolf in the early 1990s. Though not as bad as its reputation suggests, it is not good. I am wondering if anyone here knows anything about its composition or the back story to its composition, and if you will share this story.
Thanks.
I don't have any secret to share about its composition - you'd be luckier asking people who worked in White Wolf at the time. What I can confirm is that yes, the book is actually not that bad when you take it as a sourcebook and use it as a springboard to your imagination instead of some sort of "canon of the WoD" - a usage that if memory serves is EXPLICITLY advised in the supplement -, and I can also disagree that it would be "not good" anyway: that is bullshit, and your bias is showing, IMO.
But then again, I'm getting used to disagree with pretty much any personal opinion you might formulate so that should come as no surprise, I guess.
Supposedly the Souleater thing is cribbed from Brian Lumley's Necroscope novels. But I've never read 'em so nI can't attest for that.
The only thing "wrong" with DSotBH is that it's gonzo as all hell in a line that's all too often taken itself far too seriously. It's halfway there to Munchkin Vampire: The Masquerade really. Super secret haven in the Shadowlands? Sleeping Antediluvians? High-profile moles in the Camarilla and in the Sabbat? Gehenna preparedness plan? We got you covered buddy.
Quote from: The Butcher;706433Supposedly the Souleater thing is cribbed from Brian Lumley's Necroscope novels. But I've never read 'em so nI can't attest for that.
The Tzimisce are rather obviously inspired by Lumley's Wamphyri from that series. It's not like WW particularly tried to hide the pop culture influences for its character types, sometimes leading to situations such as pitting Lo-Pan against the Terminators in
Mage.
By the way, Onyx Path is apparently considering a new Black Hand book.
OK, I'll say it: DSotBH was actually really good. You play international vampire Freemason secret agents who fight a global secret war against an intelligent disease from another dimension. It's Underworld meets The Matrix as written by William S. Burroughs and directed by David Croenberg.
The standard "Gothic Political Intrigue and Personal Angst-Horror" V:TM campaign can only really be pulled off by a really, really good GM and is pretty played out anyway.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;706458The standard "Gothic Political Intrigue and Personal Angst-Horror" V:TM campaign can only really be pulled off by a really, really good GM and is pretty played out anyway.
I figured that evil-gossip-girl stayed the standard assumed campaign so long to make the LARPers happy.
Quote from: Benoist;706432But then again, I'm getting used to disagree with pretty much any personal opinion you might formulate so that should come as no surprise, I guess.
Oh get fucked you handbagger.
Quote from: The Butcher;706433Supposedly the Souleater thing is cribbed from Brian Lumley's Necroscope novels. But I've never read 'em so nI can't attest for that.
Lumley's work is quite interesting, about two of his novels are edge-of-your-seat excellent, taking advantage of deep historical research entwined with a rich metaphysical tapestry, the rest are meh. Latterly he's taken to branching off into an alternate timeline where the cold war never ended unlike Stross who's leapt upon the joys of technology with gusto, but those metaphysics are comprehensive so that would be an upvote from me, if faithful to the original.
Even aside from issues of tone, the book is badly edited with inconsistent use of terminology and numbers, unusable powers and a weak layout. Further, at a gaming convention in 1996 in Houston, a female White Wolf employee (possibly Jennifer Heartshorn) expressly described the book as a "departing middle finger" from Vampire line developer Andrew Greenberg aimed at Mark Rein-Hagan. Greenberg served as line developer for "Berlin by Night" another bad book from the era.
What's a handbagger?
Quote from: TristramEvans;706517What's a handbagger?
One who belabours their fellows about the head and face with a handbag (OED).
Quote from: GrumpyReviews;706515Further, at a gaming convention in 1996 in Houston, a female White Wolf employee (possibly Jennifer Heartshorn) expressly described the book as a "departing middle finger" from Vampire line developer Andrew Greenberg aimed at Mark Rein-Hagan. Greenberg served as line developer for "Berlin by Night" another bad book from the era.
Hagan or whomever was in charge had a sometimes negative rep with some of the designers and artists due to WW's draconian business treatment of employees. Up until possibly their closing down they had a "You make it - we own it." clause if you were a designer or artist staff.
Then again some of the designers were dicks when they werent being 3rd rate hacks anyhow so who knows.
The book in question isnt bad really. Interesting premise. It is just standard substandard WW work in spots. The general gamer likely would never notice.
Seen much worse from WW.
Quote from: Omega;706536Hagan or whomever was in charge had a sometimes negative rep with some of the designers and artists due to WW's draconian business treatment of employees. Up until possibly their closing down they had a "You make it - we own it." clause if you were a designer or artist staff.
Then again some of the designers were dicks when they werent being 3rd rate hacks anyhow so who knows.
The book in question isnt bad really. Interesting premise. It is just standard substandard WW work in spots. The general gamer likely would never notice.
Seen much worse from WW.
So it wasn't a case of Vicissitude being a virus that infected the vampires, it was the sourcebook being a virus to infect the game line?
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;706557So it wasn't a case of Vicissitude being a virus that infected the vampires, it was the sourcebook being a virus to infect the game line?
JG
There probably were one or two artists who did not shed a tear when WW closed.
Quote from: Omega;706569There probably were one or two artists who did not shed a tear when WW closed.
Er... WW hasn't actually closed at any point. It's just been fairly thoroughly integrated into CCP's computer game business by now, so that the previous tabletop side is handled by Onyx Path instead.
Quote from: Omega;706569There probably were one or two artists who did not shed a tear when WW closed.
Then they need to unwad their panties.
Non-Disclosure Agreements and work-for-hire arrangements where the hiring company owns the intellectual property is standard practice in any business dealing with intellectual property. This includes the RPG scene, but also includes books, comics, movies, music, computer programming of all kinds, technical work of all kinds. White Wolf making these demands of artists is nothing unusual at all. White Wolf staffers who handled all of that like professionals went on to develop better reputations and they include Skemp, Achilli, Dansky and Brucatio. All have worked on high profile projects for some part of the RPG scene and all where brought back for the various 20th anniversary works Onyx PAth is still producing. Greenberg has not been brought back for anything by Onyx Path.
Further, while there are some interesting idea in the work they are few and separated by bad ideas. Vissicitude as a monster would be revisited in the Gehenna book, where all of Vissicitude turned out to be some aspect of the Tzimisce founder rather than a simple discipline it created. However, Vissicitude never had any business being an actual alien monster from beyond space and time. Further, vampires with time travel powers are pure bullshit anywhere except maybe in a Doctor Who game, and then only maybe.
Quote from: GrumpyReviews;706575Then they need to unwad their panties
I suspect it was the "anything" part that bugged some. Who knows.
I've bumped into at least two while scouting for a CCG/RPG project who were disgruntled and two others who were fine. The rest never met.
The folk working on the Arcadia game though were not too thrilled with being cancelled. But that was more disagreeing with the higher ups view that the game wasn't doing well.
It is a-lot like talking to anyone who has worked for Palladium. Jekyll/Hyde.
Quote from: GrumpyReviews;706575Further, while there are some interesting idea in the work they are few and separated by bad ideas. Vissicitude as a monster would be revisited in the Gehenna book, where all of Vissicitude turned out to be some aspect of the Tzimisce founder rather than a simple discipline it created. However, Vissicitude never had any business being an actual alien monster from beyond space and time. Further, vampires with time travel powers are pure bullshit anywhere except maybe in a Doctor Who game, and then only maybe.
I always thought Vicissitude was an attempt to simulate vampirism in the Coppola version of
Bram Stoker's Dracula (given that the Tzimisce are considered of Balkan origin and Dracula is unofficially a Tzimisce). Because while that movie was an otherwise accurate retelling of the novel, it was marred by a. the exhuming of the "reincarnation of my lost love" cliche and b. the fact that Gary Oldman would at various times shapechange into a werewolf, a giant man-bat, and Montgomery Burns. :D
JG