Greetings!
How would having various breeds of Dinosaurs running around in the campaign world effect human society and culture?
Assuming also that perhaps some kinds of Dinosaurs could be domesticated. Such an impact could be pretty interesting!
Dinosaur meats harvested and eaten?
Herds of domesticated and semi-domesticated Dinosaurs being raised for use as food as well as work animals.
Interesting! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I think the realistic answer is our ancestors would have hunted them to extinction 10,000 years ago.
But a more fun answer might be to consider what happens in a world where the countryside is full of giant predators a single human has no chance against, and where massive herbivores can knock over trees and buildings. That pretty much rules out normal open settlements or farmland. I think walled cities would be the norm, with the walls extended far enough to allow enough crops to feed the populace. Humanity and demi-humanity would live in isolated pockets, and most people would live their entire lives inside the walls. Travel between the city-states would be restricted to caravans with extreme security (adventurers, ho!). If you want to steampunk it up a bit, the caravans might be trains or zeppelins.
People who live outside the city have a furtive existence, hiding in holes -- "dwarf lands" could be a dismissive phrase for the entire world outside the walls. There might be networks of tunnels connecting some of the cities, but I'd restrict that and make it dangerous, to encourage overland travel.
Since humanity isn't there to clear cut forests, the jungles and forests would be majestic, old-growth things. The fey would be powerful, and might not take on a human-seeming. Sequoias and other trees might reach to the skies, and elves might live a nomadic existence in the canopies above. Though perhaps not: The elephants cleared the forests and jungles of Africa and turned them into savannas, and sauropods would have an even easier job in reshaping the landscape. Trees might come in patches, though the elves might still have tiny forests fortified against the depredations of titanosaurs and diplodocoids.
The extreme difficulty of travel would mean each settlement is unique and insular, with its own peculiar customs. This would make for a great settlement-of-the-week campaign structure, where every couple of sessions the PCs would travel to a new city or stronghold, try to figure out the rules, not step on any toes, and probably intervene when the local customs offend their sensibilities. Borrow from Conan and Star Trek, from Traveller or Marco Polo's Travels, or any other media that has the protagonists meeting weird insular cultures and interacting with them on a regular basis.
Quote from: SHARK on July 12, 2022, 11:45:30 AMHerds of domesticated and semi-domesticated Dinosaurs being raised for use as food as well as work animals.
The cow is about the largest animal humans can domesticate for food. Anything larger would be too dangerous and much less efficient. So, I'd expect ranches in DinoWorld to be herding cow-sized dinosaurs instead groups of huge brontosaurus for the same reason that ranches in our world don't herd elephants.
The same is true of the carnivores. Would a pack of raptors be significantly more dangerous than a pack of wolves? Or bears? Or lions?
I suspect that a medieval DinoWorld to be very similar to our own world but with gladiators fighting dinosaurs rather than big cats.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on July 12, 2022, 12:44:28 PM
The cow is about the largest animal humans can domesticate. Anything larger would be too dangerous and much less efficient.
Don't Indian elephants qualify as domesticated? They are used for transportation and actual work in Southeast Asia. An elephant is about the largest land animal we've got so it's hard to say if larger ones couldn't be domesticated.
Quote from: SHARK on July 12, 2022, 11:45:30 AM
Greetings!
How would having various breeds of Dinosaurs running around in the campaign world effect human society and culture?
I hope you haven't seen "Jurassic World: Dominion". I did, and my friends had to physically restrain me and call a doctor.
Quote from: Ruprecht on July 12, 2022, 01:35:45 PMDon't Indian elephants qualify as domesticated? They are used for transportation and actual work in Southeast Asia. An elephant is about the largest land animal we've got so it's hard to say if larger ones couldn't be domesticated.
My statement was unclear as I was talking about animals raised for food. Elephants have been used for work for over 2,000 years. However, I'm not sure the exact number or how significant they were as in terms of being an important part of the economy of the region. I was just trying to discuss the relative cost of feeding huge animals verses the value of the product of those animal, whether the meat or the work. And how that economy would remain the same if you swap in dinosaurs for the mammals.
As far as imagining a world where humans and dinosaurs live together, in order to create a civilization you need a large amount of farmland that's relatively free of animals before you can afford to feed a city. So, the people living there would have figured out how to keep the dangerous animals out before they can even begin building their settlements. Whether that is a result of hunting the large predators to extinction or by some easy to build barrier is up to the imagination of the author.
Of course, there is also the DinoApocalypse but that's more of a sci-fi setting than a fantasy one.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on July 12, 2022, 12:44:28 PM
Quote from: SHARK on July 12, 2022, 11:45:30 AMHerds of domesticated and semi-domesticated Dinosaurs being raised for use as food as well as work animals.
The cow is about the largest animal humans can domesticate for food. Anything larger would be too dangerous and much less efficient. So, I'd expect ranches in DinoWorld to be herding cow-sized dinosaurs instead groups of huge brontosaurus for the same reason that ranches in our world don't herd elephants.
Is this just your opinion, or are you basing this on an analysis done somewhere? I've no particular interest in arguing the issue, but if someone's done some real thinking about it it might make interesting reading.
The world of RIFTS in the original main book is quite different than the setting in its later incarnation via the many splatbooks and one of the main book concepts was the plethora of dinos running amuck in the setting.
The big question I have regarding dinos in settings is their level of intelligence. If they are easily spooked animals, then they aren't a big threat as they would fear Man like most other beasts. But if they're too stupid to back down and ignore Man's threat because he's a tasty meatsack, now there's high danger.
That's how I run them in RIFTS. Nigh-brainless eating machines.
Other than the question of how evolution works with niche partitioning, there isn't too much that would change. The giant dinosaurs might be a bit of a problem for agriculture, but with magic and good old barbed wire, it should be possible to deter the herbivores. The big carnivores would probably be hunted via adventurer bounties I'd imagine to keep em away from settlements. As has already been mentioned, it would probably also be possible to domesticate the small and medium sized ones. The real question and impediment to domestication would be intelligence and group behavior. Domesticated animals tend to be of mid level animal intelligence that also exhibit herd or pack behaviors. Yes, cats are more solitary and domesticated, but they are weird so anthropologists, archeologists, and historians are still arguing about how it happened.
Quote from: Hzilong on July 13, 2022, 04:29:17 AM
. Yes, cats are more solitary and domesticated, but they are weird so anthropologists, archeologists, and historians are still arguing about how it happened.
They carry a brain parasite which make the infected think they are adorable. It made it much easier for them to domesticate humans.
Quote from: Hzilong on July 13, 2022, 04:29:17 AM
Other than the question of how evolution works with niche partitioning, there isn't too much that would change. The giant dinosaurs might be a bit of a problem for agriculture, but with magic and good old barbed wire, it should be possible to deter the herbivores. The big carnivores would probably be hunted via adventurer bounties I'd imagine to keep em away from settlements. As has already been mentioned, it would probably also be possible to domesticate the small and medium sized ones. The real question and impediment to domestication would be intelligence and group behavior. Domesticated animals tend to be of mid level animal intelligence that also exhibit herd or pack behaviors. Yes, cats are more solitary and domesticated, but they are weird so anthropologists, archeologists, and historians are still arguing about how it happened.
D&D and its spin-offs has never had a consistent approach to evolution. Most fantasy worlds are designed in accordance with Young Earth Creationism, then you have monsters and races whose backstories describe millions of years of evolution that couldn't possibly have happened.
I treat "1 Million B.C. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneMillionBC)" as a distinct campaign setting and explain away dinosaurs and other prehistoric beasts in other settings as the result of portals.
Ah Dinosaurs in the campaign!
The book "Guns, Germs, & Steel" has some interesting insights into anthropology as it occurred on our world.
Yeah, Elephants are definitely domesticated in India. I'm not sure about in Africa, but I wouldn't be surprised if the African Elephants could be domesticated. IIRC, American circuses used to ship in African Elephants for domestication purposes, but I'm not sure.
In theory, I can see herbivorous dinosaurs being able to be domesticated to a limited degree, so far as humanity can protect and feed them.
I think it goes without saying that the carnivorous raptors & T-Rex would be universally hazardous, but these creatures didn't overwhelm the herbivores of their day. So they're probably rare enough so as to not be a constant threat. But when a pack of Velociraptors DO show up, a tiny unprepared human civilization is going to take heavy losses.
I do disagree that agriculture would be impossible. But that also assumes that carnivores aren't in sufficient numbers to slaughter every herbivore in existence. Because then the carnivores just die out too. But that said, humanity would need to adapt fortifications where they could seek refuge in times of emergency.
And lets not underestimate early human's three natural advantages: Color vision, big brains, and the opposable thumb. The ability to manufacture sharp pointy sticks that can be thrown from a distance, helped our ancestors survive several nasty carnivorous mega fauna in the past.
There are even some researchers thinking that humans may actually have coincided with actual dinosaurs. Maybe this idea isn't as outlandish as we seem to think?
I am reminded of the Komodo dragons located in Indonesia. Locals obviously have a very nasty predator that they have to watch out for and part of their strategy is to offer up sacrificial goats and livestock that the Komodo monitors can eat so that the rest of the livestock and villagers aren't hunted down by these lizards. I can see that being a viable tactic for larger Dinosaurs too.
In conclusion, I'm not sure that introducing Dinosaurs into a game environment is that outlandish.
However, as with our ancestors, any truly dangerous predator, that we can't sufficiently control, would eventually be isolated or completely eliminated as our technological capacity to do so becomes available.
Quote
Yeah, Elephants are definitely domesticated in India. I'm not sure about in Africa, but I wouldn't be surprised if the African Elephants could be domesticated. IIRC, American circuses used to ship in African Elephants for domestication purposes, but I'm not sure.
Domesticated means bread in captivity. Elephants take 2 years to gestate and even longer to grow up. So when they need a new elephant in india they go into the jungle trap one and tame it. Rather than going through the expense and time of a breading program. So while elephants have been part of indian culture of thousands of years no one has bothered to domesticate them.
This is a technicality and may not be what you mean.
Dinosaurs might be a different thing. I have read that every bird on earth gains full size in a year. Even giants like ostriches. They gain this incredibly fast growth from their dinosaur ancestry. So people might domesticate them if they can grow them to size qickly.
I don't find dinosaurs frightening or thrilling anymore, but looking up the massive sea predators that used to exist gives me a frisson. Imagine a world where the seas are the domain of beasts so common, huge and predatory that no culture on the planet would entertain swimming in the ocean, and most avoid seagoing of any kind. In fact this seems to be hinted at in the world of Tekumel.
Quote from: TheShadow on July 14, 2022, 08:24:13 AM
I don't find dinosaurs frightening or thrilling anymore, but looking up the massive sea predators that used to exist gives me a frisson. Imagine a world where the seas are the domain of beasts so common, huge and predatory that no culture on the planet would entertain swimming in the ocean, and most avoid seagoing of any kind. In fact this seems to be hinted at in the world of Tekumel.
In Soulbound, one of the factions, the Idoneth Deepkin, uses such deep sea creatures and empowers them to swim/fly through the air. Several years ago, I remember seeing the Sea World commercial where orcas were flying over land and the people all looked up at them in wonder...and thinking that they should be very, very frightened instead. The creatures of the Idoneth are far worse.
Depends on the technology levels (and magic as well).
Dinosaurs are a lot less of a problem when you have guys with modern heavy-game rifles (.577 T-Rex says hello!). Yes, they are big and dangerous and possibly predatory, but nothing cramps that quite like firearms.
Similarly, there's a reason dinos in D&D and PF don't clock above more than midrange in the challenge ratings. They just don't have many options against a party that isn't eating paint chips in their spare time. Unless they get amazingly lucky, chances are good the fighter will have new dino-hide boots after the encounter.
I can't say that I see the appeal of dinosaurs in a fantasy campaign, outside of a direct homage to pulp "lost world" type settings. If I'm going for "humanity deals with fantastic creatures" I'll always pick something else that's more fantastical instead of long gone biological.
But then, I've never seen the appeal, unlike apparently about half the population around me, that goes gaga over dinosaurs like Calvin (from Calvin and Hobbes).
I also remembered last night that Hannibal (from West African Carthage) invaded Rome with War Elephants. Definitely from Africa.
So that's another bigger than cow Megafauna that was "domesticated." (Yeah, looking in your direction Headless).
IMHO having Dinosaurs running around your fantasy role playing campaign is just as broken as having dragons flying around your D&D world.
Quote from: Mark Caliber on July 14, 2022, 10:52:37 AM
I also remembered last night that Hannibal (from West African Carthage) invaded Rome with War Elephants. Definitely from Africa.
So that's another bigger than cow Megafauna that was "domesticated." (Yeah, looking in your direction Headless).
IMHO having Dinosaurs running around your fantasy role playing campaign is just as broken as having dragons flying around your D&D world.
I used Dinosaurs in my GURPS "The Lost World" campaign. It was set in the 1920's and had dinos, jungles, volcanoes, the tribe of "leopard men", crumbling Mayan pyramids and all that stuff. No one wondered about the dinos: they were obviously part of the setting.
Which brings me to D&D BECMI and The Hollow World setting, where dinos as part of the setting are flatly introduced in the basic box. According to the text, in the Hollow World you can find
thousand of dinosaur species. While some classics (Allosaurus, Triceratops...) are statted, the GM is literally allowed to "make things up and create (or adapt) his own dinos. And of course you have dino-riding orcs right out of the gate.
Greetings!
Indeed, in my experience, most people *love* dinosaurs. Certainly as fantastic, fierce, monstrous opponents, but also are typically wowed and overjoyed when encountering dinosaurs as some kind of food, or in a friendly, domesticated framework, such as a pet, mount, work animal, or war beast. Such situations and circumstances never fail to light up their imaginations and sense of wonder and curiosity.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
People love dinosaurs. I have several books on the subject, and many figures to scale; and I think they make a wonderful addition to a D&D type setting. They make good food for Dragons, too.
Dinotopia nostalgia
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 14, 2022, 09:46:36 AM
I can't say that I see the appeal of dinosaurs in a fantasy campaign, outside of a direct homage to pulp "lost world" type settings. If I'm going for "humanity deals with fantastic creatures" I'll always pick something else that's more fantastical instead of long gone biological.
But then, I've never seen the appeal, unlike apparently about half the population around me, that goes gaga over dinosaurs like Calvin (from Calvin and Hobbes).
To me, dinosaurs seem more like "humanity deals with
ancient creatures." I think lots of people are drawn to "fantasy" as a way of exploring ancient mysteries lost to time, not just for the whimsical magic bits. It is perhaps why "modern fantasy" or "urban fantasy" seem like distant cousins at best.
Quote from: Zalman on July 15, 2022, 08:13:09 AM
To me, dinosaurs seem more like "humanity deals with ancient creatures." I think lots of people are drawn to "fantasy" as a way of exploring ancient mysteries lost to time, not just for the whimsical magic bits. It is perhaps why "modern fantasy" or "urban fantasy" seem like distant cousins at best.
Very true. People like opera and rap, too. Lot's of them. I don't deny it even as I cannot fully grasp the appeal. :D
Dinosaurs are best when mixed with the other three biggies of my 80s childhood: robots, ninjas, and pirates. Get all four in one setting and I'm almost certain to give it a look.
To me the most fascinating things about dinosaurs is that they were real. I can see how that are beloved by children: they are a fantasy concept that really existed in times so past that they could be another dimension.
The point, IMHO, is that bringing back dinosaurs in a different setting diminishes them, as their age of the World is part of the fascination. The Lost World, D&D and the Jurassic Park don't really work as "dinotopias" because you take something out of its context and hope that it will work anyway ("Jurassic Park", both the book and the first movie, are great exactly because they show how the idea is inherently bound to fail).
The very first story I wrote, when I still was in high school, was about a trio of scientist who went back in time to visit the Cretaceous period. After filling a couple of notebooks I abandoned it because it had no plot: the characters wandered around describing things and that's was all. I wanted to travel back in the past and see those jungles, and prairies, and oceans, but the result was a travelogue (copied from books, so, futile).
I think that the best "dinos" portrayal remains the dinosaurs episode in "Fantasia". It is still an arresting piece of animation and, boy, you really travel back in time.
Quote from: SHARK on July 12, 2022, 11:45:30 AM
How would having various breeds of Dinosaurs running around in the campaign world effect human society and culture?
Depends on how long dinos have been around people.
A few years? "Holy shit! Look at the size of that thing! What do we do?!?! What do we do?!?!"
Centuries? "Well, I'm taking the ankylosaur herd to market. Been a rough year, what with feed prices going up."
Quote from: SHARK on July 12, 2022, 11:45:30 AMAssuming also that perhaps some kinds of Dinosaurs could be domesticated. Such an impact could be pretty interesting!
The problem is familiarity breeds contempt. If you go with classic emaciated giant reptiles, I suspect most gamers will approach them the same as cows and horses and bears and wolves. Not that you can't tell neat stories about bronto rustlers or being out in wilderness and hunted by a pack of raptors, but I'm just telling stories about cows and wolves in different costumes at that point.
Exalted (I know, I know) had dinosaurs, most famously their beasts of resplendent fluids or whatever they were called. Basically they were bio-factories that ate poppies and peed heroin. It's silly and goofy and also the basis for globalized narcotics and slavery in the setting. Point being: I think there's a place for dinosaurs, but pretty much whatever is done with them is going to come across at least a little campy at this point.
QuoteBut when a pack of Velociraptors DO show up, a tiny unprepared human civilization is going to take heavy losses.
No. Not really.
Primo, Velociraptor itself was... small and probably solitary being. Sure it's claw is kinda nasty, but let's be clear - in mano a mano combat in 99% adult man would beat raptor to death.
Deinonychus is more equal challenger - but even then there is a chance.
Secondo, even then - dromeosaurids were primitive secondary flightless birds generally speaking. They did not hunt in packs as more sophisticated evidence suggest. But they could like sometimes crocodiles or Comodo dragons - attack same target opportunistically. But no true pack hunting like wolves, or lions or chimpanzees. Their brains are simply not good enough for it.
So yeah Deinonychus would be like crocodile or comodo dragon - dangerous if you met one in wilderness, but also perfectly capable to be hunted by smart men.
QuoteDinosaurs are a lot less of a problem when you have guys with modern heavy-game rifles (.577 T-Rex says hello!). Yes, they are big and dangerous and possibly predatory, but nothing cramps that quite like firearms.
I mean even paleolithic javelin launcher would scever them severly.
QuoteI also remembered last night that Hannibal (from West African Carthage) invaded Rome with War Elephants. Definitely from Africa.
So that's another bigger than cow Megafauna that was "domesticated." (Yeah, looking in your direction Headless).
Tamed do not equal domesticated.
Quote from: Wrath of God on July 18, 2022, 06:04:20 PM
No. Not really.
Primo, Velociraptor itself was... small and probably solitary being. Sure it's claw is kinda nasty, but let's be clear - in mano a mano combat in 99% adult man would beat raptor to death.
Deinonychus is more equal challenger - but even then there is a chance.
I think its important to mention that Jurassic Park was full of crap. The raptors were the size of Deinonychus.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 15, 2022, 10:27:44 AM
Dinosaurs are best when mixed with the other three biggies of my 80s childhood: robots, ninjas, and pirates. Get all four in one setting and I'm almost certain to give it a look.
In the original write-up for Imperial Knights in White Dwarf 126, the Imperial Knights were inspired by Eldar Exodite Knights that were created to herd giant dinosaurs called Megasaurs. The Knight's shock lance was a weapon designed to "affect the dull nervous system of the Megasaurs." So this setting had a medieval aesthetic, noble knights piloting giant robots, herds of dinosaurs being fought over (and predator dinosaurs to protect them from), and Eldar Exodites which were the nearest equivalent to pirates in the setting. The only thing missing is ninjas but that can be easily filled by Aspect Warriors.
Close enough?
(https://i.imgur.com/GSkro5O.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wX3UM6w.jpg)
I made two settings based on dinosaurs.
Gateway
Overview
In the late 21st century, humanity has a tentative foothold within the solar system. There are thousands of humans living off planet scattered throughout the Earth-Moon system and a few transitory outposts on Mars and various near earth asteroids.
On July 6th 2089, observatories and astronomical satellites start tracking a high energy source inbound into the Solar system. Within 5 years it was clear that it was decelerating and would soon enter solar orbit. Over a dozen probes were developed and launched. Finally in 2098, the object entered into a solar orbit between Neptune and Uranus and ceased emitting energy. What remained was a small localized area where gravity was distorted. Barely detectable as stars and planets moved behind the object and then suddenly shifted back to their normal position once they emerged from behind.
The first probes reached the object in May of 2101, what they detected amazed everybody, it was a mechanism of alien manufacture creating an opening to a stable Rosen-Einstein bridge or wormhole several hundred meters in diameter. Upon further investigation the first transit was attempted and when the probe return and its data was analyzed the results were electrifying. It was not just a bridge through space but time as well.
The other end of the wormhole was in the orbit around Earth, Earth of 65 million years ago.
The Campaign
It is the year 2118, the two stations has been built on both sides of the wormhole to support human expeditions to the Earth's surface; Apollo and Artemis; Apollo lies on the present day side of the wormhole in orbit with the wormhole beyond Uranus. While Artemis lies beyond the past side of the wormhole in orbit around the earth.
Preliminary surveys have been conducted and now the first expeditions to the surface are ready to be landed.
===================================================
The Majestic Stars
Mankind has reached the stars only to find... Earth
Birds flying under distant skies, fish swimming unexplored seas, and dinosaurs ruling unknown continents. On a hundred words there are the children of Earth. Children from an Earth of sixty-five million years ago.
Now man has outgrown his cradle and traveled into the black, wondering who and what scattered the seeds of Earth throughout the cosmos. Mankind is forging a new life among the stars but old fears and conflicts still threaten. The year is 2425 and this is their universe, the Majestic Stars.
Basic Premise
A Dinosaurian civilization arose on Earth 65 millions ago and expanded outwards. They terraformed every world possible and transplanted an Earth based ecology then disappeared. On some world Dinosaurs still live, on other worlds various catastrophes reset evolution. Now humanity is expanding into the stars still divided into a hundred nations and hasn't reached the limits of where they terraformed despite colonizing a 100 light year sphere.