Quote from: StuartI think the key is letting the players fail without actually *killing* all the characters.  There are some higher level spells that take characters out of commission without killing them that can be useful in this regard:  Binding, Irresistable Dance, Power Word Stun...

Yes, but this can open up another can of worms, or more accurately, it doesn't resolve the existing one: namely, if characters believe that the GM will spare them from actual character death if they fail, this will make them MORE prone to charging in and fighting, because they feel sure they have nothing to lose for trying.

QuoteQuickly taking characters out of commission (without killing them) will let the players know they're out of their league -- and if they don't get the lesson you can ramp up the lethality until they DO.

Yes, ultimately this seems to be the only viable solution.

QuoteIf you just want the villain to escape, both the Teleport spell and Boots of Teleportation make this fairly straight forward.

works in D&D and a few other games but not always.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, but this can open up another can of worms, or more accurately, it doesn't resolve the existing one: namely, if characters believe that the GM will spare them from actual character death if they fail, this will make them MORE prone to charging in and fighting, because they feel sure they have nothing to lose for trying.

I've found that the best way to deal with that is to occasionally demonstrate that you will kill characters.

Quote from: jrientsWhat decisions do you have to make with a 1st edition fighter?  You pick your race.  Maybe you get to rearrange your stats rolls, if the DM is kind.  You get to pick four weapon proficiencies.  Possibly you get one or more bonus languages.  And you buy equipment.

A straight fighter is the one class where there can be a slight difference. But at 1st level, basically none at all.  At higher level a bit, but Feats generally are in clumps because of the dependancies.  Factor in the better character creation tools and basically it's a wash. Sure the tools don't make it a 'fair' comparison of the rules, but that's not what I'm talking about.

I agree that it's probably caused by D&D in how scenarios and the like are always geared to level challenges at the players that they can overcome (and who didn't cut their teeth on D&D?). Plus, if CRPGs are in the mix, they do the same thing. I wouldn't call out d20 for that too much, the behavior that "Challenge Ratings" produces was in place way back in the days of early D&D modules: Scenarios and adventures basically reinforced the idea of "everything that is presented here Can Be Fought or Overcome, Here and Now". Not new to d20, and probably applicable to any game that had scenarios or pre-planned adventures.

In Scenarios, there's ALWAYS a way around anything encountered. It is very problematic when the GM wants to put in a piece of exposition or something, having some element that the characters clearly can't take on. Period.

So what happens then? I have the same thing in my weekly group:

If I pop in a threatening NPC or similar event (the "big bad battlestar ship shows up: What do you do in your little skiff-ship?"), the reaction (mentally, you can read it on their faces) is:

* Shit, that looks bad.
* But the GM brought it out. That means it can be Overcome.
* Even if we can't beat it in a straight fight, there's got to be Some Trick.
* Because the GM brought it out, there's gotta be a way to defeat it. If we don't see how, it's cause we're not looking hard enough. The GM's obviously got something in mind, we just have to figure out what it is.

And this goes on and on, trained by years of crappy GMs or scenario-style play (not just D&D mind you, but Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, fuck just about any game that encourages Scenario-style play).

When I put my players in an untenable situation, their characters will "look around", examining everything like it was an Infocom game, looking for the Secret Word or whatever that will immediately topple this huge foe or oncoming catastrophe.

So what do I do as GM? I drop the veil.

"Seriously, guys, this looks bad. You have the feeling that there's no way you're going to be able to take him on, at least not now[/i].

It might be a cop-out, simply assuming that this was a railroaded encounter designed to Make Them Run Away. But I like to think it's giving them an escape route, especially when they just aren't doing Anything At All.

There was a great article back when I subsribed to Pyramid. It was about how the author collected all of the TORG supplements ever made, and ran this first adventure for an ongoing campaign. It died that night, because the GM set them up with this retarded near-impossible Word Puzzle, and for some reason (the author of course was like, "Yeah, I have no clue why the fuck I did that; I totally wasn't thinking") just never gave them a hint.

If that was me, I'd know by now that I either have to drop them a fat fucking spoiler to get on with the Real Roleplaying Fun, or give them clear options to get past whatever was blocking them ("Hey, you could always run away, or get more information from a nearby dude, or even just rig the thing with explosives or whatever; I don't have a 'solution' in mind here, guys, so whatever you want to do is cool with me").

Some people look for ways to encourage this behavior without dropping that veil and addressing the players mano-a-mano. But sometimes it's the only way to bypass that hard-wired behavior based on years of gaming with that "The GM will only present Challenges that can be Overcome" mindset.

-Andy

QuoteI wouldn't call out d20 for that too much, the behavior that "Challenge Ratings" produces was in place way back in the days of early D&D modules: Scenarios and adventures basically reinforced the idea of "everything that is presented here Can Be Fought or Overcome, Here and Now".

I do think stuff like against the giants or Keep on the borderlands really were different. They totally depend on running and coming back, being creative, waging a guerilla war on the site-based creatures.
Sure, even in the early days CR was there in the guise of HD and  was modified by  the  special abilities,  at least it´s ther in th RC. And sure there were early adventures where every encounter was to be overcome. But there also were strategic modules, no?
Haven´t seen a Against the Giants style strategic challenge in quie some time. Have you?

Quote from: SettembriniHaven´t seen a Against the Giants style strategic challenge in quie some time. Have you?

Never played that one myself.  But... hmmm... Maybe the original Ravenloft adventure, revised for AD&D 2e then again for 3.5 recently? That one requires you to basically think tactically about how you go after Strahd, all the while collecting the McGuffins to defeat him.

But even then, the Players know (or have a good idea) that Strahd is just too powerful, which is why they need to collect the Sun Sword and other related magic items.  It would probably be more telling if the players didn't know up front that they had to collect McGuffins the first 1-2 times they encountered Strahd.

-Andy

Quote from: blakkieA straight fighter is the one class where there can be a slight difference. But at 1st level, basically none at all.  At higher level a bit, but Feats generally are in clumps because of the dependancies.  Factor in the better character creation tools and basically it's a wash. Sure the tools don't make it a 'fair' comparison of the rules, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Dude, a 1st level fighter is one of the places where 3.x is going to look the best in comparison to most other editions.  If I build a thief and you build a rogue, how much time will I spend buying skills?  A first level MU in AD&D gets his spells assigned randomly, wizards have to pick your own in 3.5.

And I dare you to open the PHB to the big feats chart and ask a newbie to pick out two or three.  Have a stopwatch ready.  I want to know how long it takes them to settle on their starting feats.

Later editions of D&D tend to make replacing dead characters a bigger pain in the ass.  These mechanical differences alter the relationship between the DM and the players.  I can run a 10th level game of Basic/Expert D&D and see completed replacement characters enter play within 20 minutes.  Starting from scratch, could most 3.x players build a solid, complete 10th level character and be up and running before the session ends?  I seriously doubt it.  I think it would be more accurate to state that if you bite it and can't get a quick raise dead, your 3.5 player is left with the following choices:

• Play a cohort or some other NPC
• Play a half-assed incomplete replacement NPC
• Sit around working on a replacement PC while everyone else gets to play

All of these are suboptimal choices for most players.

So I think my point remains.  In earlier editions DMs can kill with impunity because PC life is cheap and replaceable.  In later editions the relative investment in character creation is increased, so the value of PC life is higher.  To say that's not going to affect play is to deny the basic economics of the situation.

My players generally like to stick around and fight, they'll run when they realize that the fight is too big, but by that time it's usually too late for one or two of them resulting in a character death. I'll let them roll up a new one at the same level. I mean at least they tried to get the hell out of the situation.

Am I a big softie? A big squishy marshmallow of a DM?

Quote from: jrientsDude, a 1st level fighter is one of the places where 3.x is going to look the best in comparison to most other editions.  If I build a thief and you build a rogue, how much time will I spend buying skills?  A first level MU in AD&D gets his spells assigned randomly, wizards have to pick your own in 3.5.

DUUUDE! 1e has thief skills to buy up.  Thanks to 3e's encouragement of min/maxing of Skills it's just as quick to pick out skills for Rogues.

QuoteStarting from scratch, could most 3.x players build a solid, complete 10th level character and be up and running before the session ends?  

Using the character generator program? 10-20 minute knockoff to print, and another 5 minutes touching up for magical items. Seriously. Spell selection is by far the toughest part. Especially for mages, and that isn't really a change.

P.S.  Face it, the mechanical side of character creation remains a tiny portion of the investment in a character once that character gets into play.  Sure there are some people that pour and pour over characters and tweak and twiddle. But that isn't just the mechanical bit they are slaving over, it's coordination with other players, trying on concepts, etc. Some new people to the game will put a lot of time in trying to find that "optimal", but once you are familiar with the rules?

QuoteDUUUDE! 1e has thief skills to buy up. Thanks to 3e's encouragement of min/maxing of Skills it's just as quick to pick out skills for Rogues.

Incorrect.  All 1st edition AD&D thieves have the exact same skill set, unless you're one of those dirty hippies that uses the survival guides.  But if we're going to talk about later supplements then the Complete books come into play and again 3.x looks worse in comparison.

QuoteP.S. Face it, the mechanical side of character creation remains a tiny portion of the investment in a character once that character gets into play.

...says one obsessed message-boarding fan to another obsessed message-boarding fan.  I don't think your flip dismissal of the mechanic questions holds up with regular players.  Over the years I've spent lots of time nursemaiding people through chargen and combat and lotsa other tricky mechanical questions and I'm not even a mechanics wonk.  There's probably a hundred stonger mechanicians on this board and a thousand on EnWorld.  But for the purposes of finding the lay of the land in the realm of Actual Play those guys don't count for that much.

Quote from: jrientsIncorrect.  All 1st edition AD&D thieves have the exact same skill set, unless you're one of those dirty hippies that uses the survival guides.

You still had to calculate and set them and scratch them into the character sheet.

Quote...says one obsessed message-boarding fan to another obsessed message-boarding fan. I don't think your flip dismissal of the mechanic questions holds up with regular players. Over the years I've spent lots of time nursemaiding people through chargen and combat and lotsa other tricky mechanical questions and I'm not even a mechanics wonk. There's probably a hundred stonger mechanicians on this board and a thousand on EnWorld. But for the purposes of finding the lay of the land in the realm of Actual Play those guys don't count for that much.

....which is where the character generator program comes in. Or they just pass it off to the local munchkin who whips off a character on order. Which means the player basically has no mechanical investment in the character.

EDIT: Rolling up the character? Depending on your method of choice that's a chore in and of itself.

Quote....which is where the character generator program comes in. Or they just pass it off to the local munchkin who whips off a character on order. Which means the player basically has no mechanical investment in the character.

Of course you're right.  If I have ubermunchkin handy or a PC next to the game table the burdens of character creation are lessened.  Which means that for players who do not have those options handy you've just proved my point for me.

Quote from: jrientsOf course you're right.  If I have ubermunchkin handy or a PC next to the game table the burdens of character creation are lessened.  Which means that for players who do not have those options handy you've just proved my point for me.

:rolleyes: No, I certainly didn't. Because that's what happened before too...if it was available and the player cared about it and they hadn't bothered to learn the rules to depth. There really hasn't been any meaningful change between the systems that way.

Quote from: jrientsOf course you're right.  If I have ubermunchkin handy or a PC next to the game table the burdens of character creation are lessened.  Which means that for players who do not have those options handy you've just proved my point for me.

:rolleyes: No, I certainly didn't. Because that's what happened before too...if it was available and the player cared about it and they hadn't bothered to learn the rules to depth. There really hasn't been any meaningful change between the systems that way.

What there has been a change in is a wider range of options. But getting there isn't really harder, which I think speaks to the polish and quality of 3e.

No need to roll your eyes at me twice!