Greetings!
Yes, a very interesting idea. Evidently, SCIENCE!--has figured out that historically, we have had different species of Humans; I.e, Cro-Magnons, Neanderthals, and of recent scholarship, Denosovians. These human species were capable of interbreeding--and the scientists believe that apparently there was lots of interbreeding going on, on a constant basis, for a very long time. These different Human species each possessed distinctly *different* physical, social, and intellectual capabilities.
That all seems to be firmly established FACTS.
Human beings then, are not originally-speaking, homogenous, the same, or equal in many different aspects.
Have you developed different Human species in your campaigns?
The idea is certainly ripe with many intriguing possibilities!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It would make a lot of sense to do this in an early Paleolithic setting, maybe something like Osprey's Paleomythic https://www.amazon.com/dp/147283481X/?coliid=I3454L24FZYTR&colid=1TX4UZOED51DK&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it (https://www.amazon.com/dp/147283481X/?coliid=I3454L24FZYTR&colid=1TX4UZOED51DK&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it).
I'm not sure if that game has anything of this sort, but I can certainly see it as a possibility.
I've considered adding this a bunch of times in recent years when working on homebrewed settings, but I haven't gotten around implementing it in actual play. But I've worked on "beastmen" races related to humans, pygmy humans instead of halflings or giant human races inspired by Denisovans.
I wonder how much impact these would have, though, given the over proliferation of non-human races these past few years (decades?) and the fact that a lot of them are very human-like, or even descend or interbreedable with humans. Plus, considering a lot of fantasy world characters don't know anything about genetics, claiming that these races are really humans might be nothing but an interesting factoid from a player's point of view. But in practice, pygmies would still be regarded as "halflings", while beastmen might be indistinguishable from orcs.
Quote from: BronzeDragon on July 22, 2022, 06:44:43 PM
It would make a lot of sense to do this in an early Paleolithic setting, maybe something like Osprey's Paleomythic https://www.amazon.com/dp/147283481X/?coliid=I3454L24FZYTR&colid=1TX4UZOED51DK&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it (https://www.amazon.com/dp/147283481X/?coliid=I3454L24FZYTR&colid=1TX4UZOED51DK&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it).
I'm not sure if that game has anything of this sort, but I can certainly see it as a possibility.
Greetings!
That's an interesting book, BronzeDragon! I should get that one sometime here soon.
In the campaign, though, what if the different species of humans survive and thrive beyond the paleo times? Like into the standard ancient/medieval eras of most campaigns.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
My main science fiction setting has only humans and various sub species of humans due to purposeful mutations to let colonists survive on distant worlds and gene altering that occured during wars long winded past. Not to mention purpose built slave races by great empires to live on hostile conditions without having to invest in terraforming whole worlds.
Without living subjects, we can't know the extent of these differences. They might have been largely irrelevant. Like Star Trek's rubber forehead aliens.
Closest I've come is replacing races with different human cultures. The only "race" in the setting was human, but players picked a culture. The northern tribes were comprised of stronger, heartier people, but lacked the social grace of other "more civilized" cultures (so basically half-orcs without the stigma). Other cultures developed near anomolous magic zones, and after generations have become more magical attuned/resistant. Et cetera.
For historical early homonids to persist into modern, or even medieval, times, they'd need to have been isolated or insular. Especially if the prospect of interbreeding is a thing. Because the truth is, those species didn't vanish, they just became us. Most Europeans have neanderthal DNA; some people living in France and Spain have Cro-magnan genes; many African tribes show traces of yet another early homonid that no one else in the world does. Evidence suggests that early humans (homo sapiens) were prolific conquerers, and just out-bred /interbred with everyone else.
Alternatively, you can use the conceit of multiple realities converging, like Paladium Rifts... or Sliders.
Quote from: SHARK on July 23, 2022, 11:28:30 AM
In the campaign, though, what if the different species of humans survive and thrive beyond the paleo times? Like into the standard ancient/medieval eras of most campaigns.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Well, if we take what we know about Neanderthals, they tended to be slightly larger and more muscular, Cro-magnons are as close to identical to us as you can imagine, and Denisovans may have ended up as the Australian Aborigines, so we have a basis for what they looked like, distinctive but not really functionally different.
A Neanderthal civilization might evolve pretty much similar to Sapiens, perhaps a little more violent (though there's little to no evidence of this IRL) due to their larger size and more muscular body.
IRL it seems that we essentially fucked the Neanderthals out of existence, given the fact that we have some quantity of their genes in our own populations, as Effete pointed out.
QuoteYes, a very interesting idea. Evidently, SCIENCE!--has figured out that historically, we have had different species of Humans; I.e, Cro-Magnons, Neanderthals, and of recent scholarship, Denosovians. These human species were capable of interbreeding--and the scientists believe that apparently there was lots of interbreeding going on, on a constant basis, for a very long time. These different Human species each possessed distinctly *different* physical, social, and intellectual capabilities.
Sub-species. And Cro-Magnons were Homo sapiens sapiens - just more admixed with neanderthals than nowadays in Europe.
QuoteWell, if we take what we know about Neanderthals, they tended to be slightly larger and more muscular, Cro-magnons are as close to identical to us as you can imagine, and Denisovans may have ended up as the Australian Aborigines, so we have a basis for what they looked like, distinctive but not really functionally different.
Neanderthals were bulkier, alas IIRC not taller. Cro-Magnons were H.s.s with more H.s.n admixture - so they were generally taking correction on dietary limitations heavy, tall, muscular modern people - the kind that with proper rich diet would turn into strongmen let's say. And this paleolithic blood is strongest nowadays in Scandinavia, Northern Poland, Baltic Lands, parts of Russia - exactly where most strongmen came from. Australians lack Denisovian blood, but Papuan Melanesians have up to 10% of it - and if you watch various photos of Papuans vs Australians I think phenotypical differences may fit that.
Palladium books has the Ogre race essentially be a human race offshoot. They're bigger, just as intelligent, but more crude, and tend to be selfish to full evil on the morality alignment scale. The Ogres biggest fault is that most of the their children are born male, including when the mother is a normal human woman. So, add all that up and you get an Ogre culture based on raiding and taking human women by force.
Quote from: Wrath of God on July 24, 2022, 09:02:46 AM
QuoteWell, if we take what we know about Neanderthals, they tended to be slightly larger and more muscular, Cro-magnons are as close to identical to us as you can imagine, and Denisovans may have ended up as the Australian Aborigines, so we have a basis for what they looked like, distinctive but not really functionally different.
Neanderthals were bulkier, alas IIRC not taller. Cro-Magnons were H.s.s with more H.s.n admixture - so they were generally taking correction on dietary limitations heavy, tall, muscular modern people - the kind that with proper rich diet would turn into strongmen let's say. And this paleolithic blood is strongest nowadays in Scandinavia, Northern Poland, Baltic Lands, parts of Russia - exactly where most strongmen came from. Australians lack Denisovian blood, but Papuan Melanesians have up to 10% of it - and if you watch various photos of Papuans vs Australians I think phenotypical differences may fit that.
Denisovian were apparently also larger than even Neanderthals, probably were the legends of giants come from. So they were probably ogre sized. I'd say that would make them functionally different from humans, in that they would probably qualify as Huge creatures in terms of Size category. Neanderthals probably had a racial bonus to STR in D&D terms. Homo floresiensis were also halfling sized. All these differences set these races apart from H.S.S., enough to give them different game stats.
The first edition AD&D Monster Manual has Caveman stats, listed under Men (That word we've used for hundreds of years for all humans regardless of sex).
1e Greyhawk had multiple ethnic groups, but they were identical except for physical description and clothing. ("My character has to wear plaid because he's a f—cking Oeridian...")
2e Greyhawk gave them each slightly different ability score modifiers, which was really stupid.
This new/fake nutSR Star Frontiers knockoff has the ridiculous Eugenics study. And get this...it's a 5e clone so nutSR isn't even OSR.
The original Star Frontiers that I played when it first came out had no separate ethnic groups.
Here's an idea for a species of Homo-Superior to go along side all your Neanderthals.
QuoteDenisovian were apparently also larger than even Neanderthals, probably were the legends of giants come from. So they were probably ogre sized. I'd say that would make them functionally different from humans, in that they would probably qualify as Huge creatures in terms of Size category. Neanderthals probably had a racial bonus to STR in D&D terms. Homo floresiensis were also halfling sized. All these differences set these races apart from H.S.S., enough to give them different game stats.
I'm quite sure they were not. Both Denisovian and Neanderthal were Medium creatures (definite not Huge - come on - Huge is Hill Giant size, category above Large). They were more robust so +2 Con or +2 End depends of game. So generally no - they were not that different functionally from modern humans.
Quote2e Greyhawk gave them each slightly different ability score modifiers, which was really stupid.
It would be totally fine to use some +1/-1 between subgroups of humanity, while keeping bigger modifiers for non-humans.
Just to flip one to professional woke anti-racists.
Here your Japanese get +1 Int, this minor difference make him totally superior to -1 Int Texan, therefore making game unplayably nazi one. ;)
Quote from: Wrath of God on July 25, 2022, 08:39:12 AM
QuoteDenisovian were apparently also larger than even Neanderthals, probably were the legends of giants come from. So they were probably ogre sized. I'd say that would make them functionally different from humans, in that they would probably qualify as Huge creatures in terms of Size category. Neanderthals probably had a racial bonus to STR in D&D terms. Homo floresiensis were also halfling sized. All these differences set these races apart from H.S.S., enough to give them different game stats.
I'm quite sure they were not. Both Denisovian and Neanderthal were Medium creatures (definite not Huge - come on - Huge is Hill Giant size, category above Large). They were more robust so +2 Con or +2 End depends of game. So generally no - they were not that different functionally from modern humans.
Yeah, I messed up. I meant Large, not Huge. I sometimes get those mixed up. That's why I mentioned Ogres, which are Large creatures. But based on what they've found Denisovans had huge teeth, like twice as large as modern humans and bigger jaws, so they were probably larger homo sapiens sapiens, which should give them different stats.
Quote
Yeah, I messed up. I meant Large, not Huge. I sometimes get those mixed up. That's why I mentioned Ogres, which are Large creatures. But based on what they've found Denisovans had huge teeth, like twice as large as modern humans and bigger jaws, so they were probably larger homo sapiens sapiens, which should give them different stats.
Actually not. They had bigger molars and stronger jaws - but they were no larger than Homo sapiens sapiens. More robust, and with well big boney jaws, that rarely can be find today (though for instance among Papuans who had denisovian ancestry you will more often find strong robust jaws, than among Australians).
It's more like that
(https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/595098e9f16a201887479457/5a9346048a8346000119f054_top-10-interesting-theories-about-cavemen.jpg)
Give them +Con and better bite damage :P
That picture...Holy shit! I'm a Neanderthal!
Quote from: Wrath of God on July 25, 2022, 09:53:04 AM
Quote
Yeah, I messed up. I meant Large, not Huge. I sometimes get those mixed up. That's why I mentioned Ogres, which are Large creatures. But based on what they've found Denisovans had huge teeth, like twice as large as modern humans and bigger jaws, so they were probably larger homo sapiens sapiens, which should give them different stats.
Actually not. They had bigger molars and stronger jaws - but they were no larger than Homo sapiens sapiens. More robust, and with well big boney jaws, that rarely can be find today (though for instance among Papuans who had denisovian ancestry you will more often find strong robust jaws, than among Australians).
It's more like that
(https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/595098e9f16a201887479457/5a9346048a8346000119f054_top-10-interesting-theories-about-cavemen.jpg)
Give them +Con and better bite damage :P
IDK, that still looks larger than human. Maybe not large enough to make it to the next size category (still don't know about that, and there's not enough fossil evidence to make "absolute" determinations either way), but large enough to at least get a STR bonus on top of that CON bonus, cuz otherwise, how tha hell are they even gonna move that huge skeletal structure?
Not even close to be Large. This is still modern Homo sapiens size category.
But they were robust - average Neanderthal adult male weighted 80 kgs significantly higher than his contemporary H.s.s. (Height on average below 170 cm, though probably genetic potential for more).
So yeah I think +2 Con would be deserved modifier. Dunno about Strength as is DnD it's not only pure Weightlifting but also part of overal Agility not covered by Dex. So considering they were probably not that fast in this regard, they would not make really better melee fighters (maybe some bonus for brawling or smth).
And remember we have modern men as robust as neandies.
QuoteThat picture...Holy shit! I'm a Neanderthal!
Plenty Europeans and not only had Neanderthal ancestors, so backward chins and protruding faces are not unheard about.
As this thread is full of wrong, allow me to venture my own knowledge and opinions.
Humans feature a very unique mutation which makes interbreeding with other great apes impossible. Specifically, chromosomes 2 and 3 are fused. This is a very complex, multi-step mutation. Chromosomes have telomeres at their ends (which tell the DNA duplicator to stop) and a centomere in the middle which allows the duplicator to proceed. For the chromosome fusion mutation to happen, you have to deactivate the centomere which was in the middle to make what is effectively a new telomere, and then activate the telomere which is now in the middle so it now serves as a centomere. So this mutation has three steps (a structural mutation and two point mutations) which must occur simultaneously or else you make one or both chromosomes useless.
Now here's the stretch; this mutation is effectively God's DRM key on humanity. It completely stops all possibility of natural interbreeding with an ape or chimp which doesn't have this mutation because the DNA is formatted differently. For this mutation to not instantly die off, you need a minimum of two people (a male and a female) to have the exact same mutations (same two chromosomes fused, same orientation, same telomere and centomere alterations) and for those two to live close enough in time and space to have children.
We can infer that all that actually happened purely from the fact we are alive and our DNA has this extremely strange mutation and this mutation could not exist otherwise.
My point is that it's meaningless to call any human subspecies which can interbreed with homo sapiens anything other than another homo sapiens. You have to be on this side of this mutation to interbreed.
Quote from: Fheredin on August 08, 2022, 08:48:33 PM
As this thread is full of wrong, allow me to venture my own knowledge and opinions.
Humans feature a very unique mutation which makes interbreeding with other great apes impossible. Specifically, chromosomes 2 and 3 are fused. This is a very complex, multi-step mutation. Chromosomes have telomeres at their ends (which tell the DNA duplicator to stop) and a centomere in the middle which allows the duplicator to proceed. For the chromosome fusion mutation to happen, you have to deactivate the centomere which was in the middle to make what is effectively a new telomere, and then activate the telomere which is now in the middle so it now serves as a centomere. So this mutation has three steps (a structural mutation and two point mutations) which must occur simultaneously or else you make one or both chromosomes useless.
Now here's the stretch; this mutation is effectively God's DRM key on humanity. It completely stops all possibility of natural interbreeding with an ape or chimp which doesn't have this mutation because the DNA is formatted differently. For this mutation to not instantly die off, you need a minimum of two people (a male and a female) to have the exact same mutations (same two chromosomes fused, same orientation, same telomere and centomere alterations) and for those two to live close enough in time and space to have children.
We can infer that all that actually happened purely from the fact we are alive and our DNA has this extremely strange mutation and this mutation could not exist otherwise.
My point is that it's meaningless to call any human subspecies which can interbreed with homo sapiens anything other than another homo sapiens. You have to be on this side of this mutation to interbreed.
Greetings!
Sounds good, Fheredin!
You are aware that all of the Paleontologists, Archeologists, and Anthropologists at all of these dig sites and at the uber elite universities have all formed a *consensus* that historically, there have been different human species, and that somehow, they intermixed and interbred with each other?
*Shrugs* That I just what I have read in the academic literature, and seen in the documentaries where they interview "Professor X" and "Scholar Y". ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Funnily enough, dwarfs in my low-magic fantasy game are actually directly descended from the Neanderthals. Neanderthals are already shorter and stockier on average than Homo Sapiens, and after thousands of years within the mountains of the northern reaches this gradually became exacerbated, their brains became more developed, and they were taught the arts of metalworking by a race of giants.
Of course, none of my players know this, not even the one currently playing a dwarf, my game is largely based on early medieval (10th century-ish) eastern Europe, and quite frankly, I don't expect medieval Greeks and Russians to know jack shit about other human species.
Quote from: Fheredin on August 08, 2022, 08:48:33 PM
As this thread is full of wrong, allow me to venture my own knowledge and opinions.
Humans feature a very unique mutation which makes interbreeding with other great apes impossible. Specifically, chromosomes 2 and 3 are fused. This is a very complex, multi-step mutation. Chromosomes have telomeres at their ends (which tell the DNA duplicator to stop) and a centomere in the middle which allows the duplicator to proceed. For the chromosome fusion mutation to happen, you have to deactivate the centomere which was in the middle to make what is effectively a new telomere, and then activate the telomere which is now in the middle so it now serves as a centomere. So this mutation has three steps (a structural mutation and two point mutations) which must occur simultaneously or else you make one or both chromosomes useless.
Now here's the stretch; this mutation is effectively God's DRM key on humanity. It completely stops all possibility of natural interbreeding with an ape or chimp which doesn't have this mutation because the DNA is formatted differently. For this mutation to not instantly die off, you need a minimum of two people (a male and a female) to have the exact same mutations (same two chromosomes fused, same orientation, same telomere and centomere alterations) and for those two to live close enough in time and space to have children.
We can infer that all that actually happened purely from the fact we are alive and our DNA has this extremely strange mutation and this mutation could not exist otherwise.
My point is that it's meaningless to call any human subspecies which can interbreed with homo sapiens anything other than another homo sapiens. You have to be on this side of this mutation to interbreed.
But we're not homo sapiens, we're homo sapiens sapiens.
It's easier to understand if you think of us as humans, Neanderthal were human, just like the hobbits from that island, and since we of european descent do carr neanderthal DNA they could clearly interbreed.
Just as canis lupus familiaris and canis lupus can interbreed.
So, everyone mentioned "humans" from the past, what about the future? Morlock and Eloi would work fine in D&D games.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 28, 2022, 04:30:41 PM
So, everyone mentioned "humans" from the past, what about the future? Morlock and Eloi would work fine in D&D games.
Both are included on my Pulp OSR game.
It is kind of odd that the idea of multiple human races hasn't had that much exposure in the fantasy RPG sphere, because if you scratch the surface of fantasy literature, it's pretty common. Tolkien, of course, has the Numenoreans, who might as well be a different species from normal humans, but IIRC the Melniboneans in Michael Moorcock's universe are explained as the last survivors of a proto-human race. Pretty sure Howard and Lovecraft both flirted with the idea, too, and From Software has also engaged with it. e.g., the Pthumerians in Bloodborne, or how the Irythillians in Dark Souls III are implied to be a subtly different race, due to their long interbreeding with the Gods of Anor Londo (and the general blurring of the lines between men and gods in that series).
I've been messing with the idea a bit for a Souls-inspired setting I'm half-heartedly working on. I think it's a good addition to a human-only setting, and helps to give a setting a sense of deep time.
There's also the popular (though poorly evidenced) anthropological theory that stories of ancient humanoid races (such as the Fomorians and Tuatha De Danann in Irish mythology) represent a much-eroded memory of interaction with other human species like the Neanderthals.
EDIT: I didn't even think to mention Edgar Rice Burroughs' Mars, in which the Red, Yellow, and Black men of Mars are implied to be divided by more than just skin-tone and culture.
The only published RPG I can think of that really engages with the idea of multiple human races is Hyperborea, which does imply that certain races, such as the Hyperboreans and Amazons are quite different from other humans, but doesn't go so far as to stat them differently. Modiphius Conan has a talent which you receive if any of your stats exceed normal human limits at character creation, and which denotes that your character has some blood from a pre-human race, but that's not much.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 28, 2022, 06:56:32 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 28, 2022, 04:30:41 PM
So, everyone mentioned "humans" from the past, what about the future? Morlock and Eloi would work fine in D&D games.
Both are included on my Pulp OSR game.
Neat!
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 28, 2022, 08:20:26 PM
The only published RPG I can think of that really engages with the idea of multiple human races is Hyperborea, which does imply that certain races, such as the Hyperboreans and Amazons are quite different from other humans, but doesn't go so far as to stat them differently. Modiphius Conan has a talent which you receive if any of your stats exceed normal human limits at character creation, and which denotes that your character has some blood from a pre-human race, but that's not much.
Ancient bloodlines in Modiphius Conan are questionable.
For a more solid difference, Rolemaster has both high men and common men. So too does Against the Darkmaster. FFG Star Wars had humans, Corelli humans, and Mandalorian humans each under a different species entry. Clones were also a distinct species despite being clones of a (Mandalorian?) human.
Although I loathe the wokeness that SJG has descended into, two GURPS sourcebooks go somewhat into this: GURPS: Ice Age and GURPS: Dinosaurs (both GURPS 3rd ed) deal somewhat with this.
At any given time, there were several human species living on earth at the same time. Homo Erectus, Homo neanderthalensis, Denisova hominins, Homo floresiensis (so-called "Hobbits") and good old Homo Sapiens all existed at the same time, some even in the same geographical region. There probably were others waiting to be discovered. And earlier, there were probably some Australopithecus species at the same time as some members of the Homo genus.
Generally speaking, Neanderthals and Denosovians are physically stronger, have larger body mass, but are shorter and stockier. Socially, they seem to have lived in smaller groups than homo sapiens, which probably was a factor in us out-competing them. But there was some inter-species action--here's an interesting news item about one such individual they've found: <link>https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/nov/24/denisovan-neanderthal-hybrid-denny-dna-finder-project</link>
My son has toyed with some world-building using the various Homo species evolving into analogies of the various archetypical fantasy races in a earth setting. He was working on it some during the summer, but now that school's starting up again he's setting it aside for awhile. But an alternate history where multiple human species sounds fascinating (though probably unlikely)--maybe something like the STTNG episode where a planet had two intelligent species, but the less intelligent one were treated like second-class citizens.
Quote from: Fheredin on August 08, 2022, 08:48:33 PM
As this thread is full of wrong, allow me to venture my own knowledge and opinions.
Humans feature a very unique mutation which makes interbreeding with other great apes impossible. Specifically, chromosomes 2 and 3 are fused. This is a very complex, multi-step mutation. Chromosomes have telomeres at their ends (which tell the DNA duplicator to stop) and a centomere in the middle which allows the duplicator to proceed. For the chromosome fusion mutation to happen, you have to deactivate the centomere which was in the middle to make what is effectively a new telomere, and then activate the telomere which is now in the middle so it now serves as a centomere. So this mutation has three steps (a structural mutation and two point mutations) which must occur simultaneously or else you make one or both chromosomes useless.
Now here's the stretch; this mutation is effectively God's DRM key on humanity. It completely stops all possibility of natural interbreeding with an ape or chimp which doesn't have this mutation because the DNA is formatted differently. For this mutation to not instantly die off, you need a minimum of two people (a male and a female) to have the exact same mutations (same two chromosomes fused, same orientation, same telomere and centomere alterations) and for those two to live close enough in time and space to have children.
We can infer that all that actually happened purely from the fact we are alive and our DNA has this extremely strange mutation and this mutation could not exist otherwise.
My point is that it's meaningless to call any human subspecies which can interbreed with homo sapiens anything other than another homo sapiens. You have to be on this side of this mutation to interbreed.
You're forgetting that the fusion of these two chromosomes had already taken place. Denisovans and Neanderthals have this same mutation. See https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/science/bioscience/the-origin-of-the-human-species-a-chromosome-fusion/ (https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/science/bioscience/the-origin-of-the-human-species-a-chromosome-fusion/) I am not sure if it's been determined as of yet when this mutation took place, but (assuming you want a "crunchy" campaign with reasonable scientific plausibility), hybrid cross-breeding between hominids with this same mutation is reasonable. I'd be interested to see if they're able to get enough Australopithecine DNA to see if they have this mutation or not--my guess is that they didn't have it, but I could be wrong.
Quote from: SHARK on August 08, 2022, 08:56:01 PM
Quote from: Fheredin on August 08, 2022, 08:48:33 PM
As this thread is full of wrong, allow me to venture my own knowledge and opinions.
Humans feature a very unique mutation which makes interbreeding with other great apes impossible. Specifically, chromosomes 2 and 3 are fused. This is a very complex, multi-step mutation. Chromosomes have telomeres at their ends (which tell the DNA duplicator to stop) and a centomere in the middle which allows the duplicator to proceed. For the chromosome fusion mutation to happen, you have to deactivate the centomere which was in the middle to make what is effectively a new telomere, and then activate the telomere which is now in the middle so it now serves as a centomere. So this mutation has three steps (a structural mutation and two point mutations) which must occur simultaneously or else you make one or both chromosomes useless.
Now here's the stretch; this mutation is effectively God's DRM key on humanity. It completely stops all possibility of natural interbreeding with an ape or chimp which doesn't have this mutation because the DNA is formatted differently. For this mutation to not instantly die off, you need a minimum of two people (a male and a female) to have the exact same mutations (same two chromosomes fused, same orientation, same telomere and centomere alterations) and for those two to live close enough in time and space to have children.
We can infer that all that actually happened purely from the fact we are alive and our DNA has this extremely strange mutation and this mutation could not exist otherwise.
My point is that it's meaningless to call any human subspecies which can interbreed with homo sapiens anything other than another homo sapiens. You have to be on this side of this mutation to interbreed.
Greetings!
Sounds good, Fheredin!
You are aware that all of the Paleontologists, Archeologists, and Anthropologists at all of these dig sites and at the uber elite universities have all formed a *consensus* that historically, there have been different human species, and that somehow, they intermixed and interbred with each other?
*Shrugs* That I just what I have read in the academic literature, and seen in the documentaries where they interview "Professor X" and "Scholar Y". ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
They've been arguing for centuries whether the different hominids are separate species, like the difference between a lion (
Pantera leo) and a leopard (
Pantera pardus), or separate sub-species like the difference between an African leopard (
Pantera pardus pardus) and an Arabian leopard (
Pantera pardus nimr ).
The genus
Homo is very much like the genus
Canis because not only did different sub-species interbreed and produce fertile offspring, but different species did, too. Usually when different species interbreed, the result is sterile (like mules or ligers) but Denisovians (a hybrid of Neanderthals and our species) reproduced for many thousands of years. Both genera are taxonomical headaches.
Quotebut Denisovians (a hybrid of Neanderthals and our species) reproduced for many thousands of years. Both genera are taxonomical headaches.
I dig those old hominid bones to mention that denisovians were not hybrid of neanderthal and hss. Denisovians are sister race (or races) to Neanderthals both coming from common ancestor that left Africa way before H.s.s.
Most of boreal humans has either admixture of neanderthal or denisovian in other worlds - we all are hybrids of neanderthals and homo sapiens.
And both Neanderthals and Denisovians were very diversed as they lived for long thousands of years across whole Eurasia before Hss moved its twink butt from Africa.
Quote from: Wrath of God on October 11, 2022, 08:45:17 PM
Quotebut Denisovians (a hybrid of Neanderthals and our species) reproduced for many thousands of years. Both genera are taxonomical headaches.
I dig those old hominid bones to mention that denisovians were not hybrid of neanderthal and hss. Denisovians are sister race (or races) to Neanderthals both coming from common ancestor that left Africa way before H.s.s.
Most of boreal humans has either admixture of neanderthal or denisovian in other worlds - we all are hybrids of neanderthals and homo sapiens.
And both Neanderthals and Denisovians were very diversed as they lived for long thousands of years across whole Eurasia before Hss moved its twink butt from Africa.
My understanding is that Neanderthals and Denisovians had pretty low genetic diversity--and this probably contributed to the their disappearance. See https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0809194105 and https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/neanderthal-ancestry-in-europeans-unchanged-for-last-45-000-years-65364
The closest thing I've created is for the next campaign I'm doing in the Hyborian Age.
Each nation/kingdom has ability and weapon modifiers for those people. their are also certain classes that are available and some that aren't, depending on where you PC came from. when i get home from work, I'll post my stuff. alot of it was derived from http://hyboria.xoth.net/index.htm (http://hyboria.xoth.net/index.htm) , so I can't take 100% credit.
My setting is based on Southeast Asia in the last Ice Age and I learned that some people in the Philippines have the highest percentage of Denisovan DNA in the world:
https://sundaland-rpg-setting.blogspot.com/2021/08/real-history-ethnic-group-in.html
I haven't yet decided how they differ from Homo Sapiens. I don't want to just make them exaggerated Sapiens, e.g. they're like us but stronger/smarter/faster.
If we outcompeted them then obviously we had an advantage in some way.
I might just make a table of various interesting cultural traits and roll up variations as and when I need them.
Quote from: TimothyWestwind on October 14, 2022, 04:55:57 AM
My setting is based on Southeast Asia in the last Ice Age and I learned that some people in the Philippines have the highest percentage of Denisovan DNA in the world:
https://sundaland-rpg-setting.blogspot.com/2021/08/real-history-ethnic-group-in.html
I haven't yet decided how they differ from Homo Sapiens. I don't want to just make them exaggerated Sapiens, e.g. they're like us but stronger/smarter/faster.
If we outcompeted them then obviously we had an advantage in some way.
I might just make a table of various interesting cultural traits and roll up variations as and when I need them.
I'm not sure if it was the same case with Denisovans as with Neanderthals, but part of the advantage that homo sapiens had over Neanderthals is that we tended to live in larger groups than the Neanderthals. This allows for both (a) larger pool for genetic diversity; and (b) better chance of collaboration leading to further development of language, culture, and technology. Perhaps it was the same case as Denisovans--that perhaps they had "superior" traits as individuals, but culturally they were hampered from robust development, as well as having smaller gene pools leading to multiple problems.
ran a conan game with d6 fantasy, different human cultures essentially took the mechanical place of races; for example nemedians got a bonus to all thing horse or cavalry related while stygians got bonuses to arcane or religious related things.