Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 02:21:27 PMTolkien defines his orcs as being unruly drivers and pawns of the military-industrial complex, with their fiendish machines and scarring medicine. The popular understanding has steadily drifted away from that, though, so that now people think more of hulking green-skinned brutes - possibly even Noble Savage as Ratman_tf mentioned.

As seen in History of Middle Earth, Tolkien's conception of Orcs morphed over the decades. One constant is his view of them as beings corrupted by Morgoth, Sauron, and Saurman and bred as their servants. Whether they were constructs, mutated elves, mutated humans, or had free will, Tolkien never settled this question in his lifetime.

Furthermore, he famously disliked allegories, so for the most we should consider them as described rather than searching for some deeper meaning like pawns of a military-industrial complex. Melkor and Sauron sought to impose their will upon creation contrary to their explicit understanding of what God (Eru Iluvatar) wanted done. One aspect of that is the two of them corrupt things that Iluvatar created. As a fellow Catholic, it is clear to me where Tolkien is coming from in this regard.

Quote from: estar on February 20, 2025, 03:14:12 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 02:21:27 PMTolkien defines his orcs as being unruly drivers and pawns of the military-industrial complex, with their fiendish machines and scarring medicine. The popular understanding has steadily drifted away from that, though, so that now people think more of hulking green-skinned brutes - possibly even Noble Savage as Ratman_tf mentioned.

As seen in History of Middle Earth, Tolkien's conception of Orcs morphed over the decades. One constant is his view of them as beings corrupted by Morgoth, Sauron, and Saurman and bred as their servants. Whether they were constructs, mutated elves, mutated humans, or had free will, Tolkien never settled this question in his lifetime.

Furthermore, he famously disliked allegories, so for the most we should consider them as described rather than searching for some deeper meaning like pawns of a military-industrial complex.

I think the focus of this should be Middle Earth orcs as they are understood by Tolkien fans - and possibly different understanding especially for LotR book fans and film fans.

I don't want to go too deep into literary interpretation because it's a quagmire.

However, I also think it's important for broad strokes to understand what is the basic archetype or stereotype that a given type of orcs represents. Just cataloging individual differences in details between orcs risks missing the forest for the trees.

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 03:32:44 PMI think the focus of this should be Middle Earth orcs as they are understood by Tolkien fans - and possibly different understanding especially for LotR book fans and film fans.

Tolkien fans? All the fans I know of are aware of the points I mentioned. And by fans I mean that group who enjoy Tolkien works beyond liking just the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and/or the films.

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 03:32:44 PMI don't want to go too deep into literary interpretation because it's a quagmire.

We don't have to interpret anything his son make the primary sources available in several books. Letters, drafts, manuscripts, the works. It clear what Tolkien thought of orcs in the 1920s had different nuances than the Tolkien of the 1960s.

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 03:32:44 PMHowever, I also think it's important for broad strokes to understand what is the basic archetype or stereotype that a given type of orcs represents. Just cataloging individual differences in details between orcs risks missing the forest for the trees.

I stated what the archetype is. But perhaps I wasn't clear, the prototypical orc is a sentient being, corrupted from their original form by dark powers to be used as rank and file servants for their evil plans for the world.

This archetype diversified in major ways at three different time.

The first was Orcs as depicted in OD&D in 1974, this was reinforced by D&D rise in popularity and it ability to remain as the market leader for decades.

The second was Orcs as depicted in Warhammer in the mid-80s; this was further reinforced by Warcraft adopting a similar interpretation.

Finally, Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films marked the return of Orcs as creatures corrupted by evil powers. This was reinforced by Jackson explicitly showed Saruman creating the Uruk-hai.

https://www.tk421.net/lotr/film/fotr/27.html

All three have a foothold in the minds of today's hobbyists.

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 03:32:44 PMI think the focus of this should be Middle Earth orcs as they are understood by Tolkien fans - and possibly different understanding especially for LotR book fans and film fans.

The precise origin of orcs, whether they are redeemable or purely evil, whether or not they have a féa (soul), etc. have been topics of debate for decades, with no clear agreement from Tolkien fans anywhere. And you propose to solve it here, as an ancillary to a broader discussion?
Good luck.

QuoteI don't want to go too deep into literary interpretation because it's a quagmire.

However, I also think it's important for broad strokes to understand what is the basic archetype or stereotype that a given type of orcs represents. Just cataloging individual differences in details between orcs risks missing the forest for the trees.

Sure, but this only risks opening the discussion to the type of literary interpretation you claim you want to avoid. Why not just stick to the facts? Physical description. General backstory. Perception from the wider world. Unique traits/game mechanics...

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 03:32:44 PMI think the focus of this should be Middle Earth orcs as they are understood by Tolkien fans - and possibly different understanding especially for LotR book fans and film fans.

Well, then, it is incumbent upon you as a first step to determine how orcs "are understood by Tolkien fans."  Seems like, after you are done a decade hence, we can then move on to the specifics.  Though you'll probably have to define "Tolkien fans" first, just to narrow down your material.

Quote from: Effete on February 20, 2025, 04:02:52 PMSure, but this only risks opening the discussion to the type of literary interpretation you claim you want to avoid. Why not just stick to the facts? Physical description. General backstory. Perception from the wider world. Unique traits/game mechanics...

Because jhkim tends to put the cart before the horse.  He's not looking for the actual specifics of orcs and their portrayals.  He's looking for information that will support some idea he already has about orcs and their function in literature or gaming.  Now, I don't know what point he's trying to support (but, based off of the other thread on orcs and the MM, I have my suspicions).  But other discussions with him have led me to the conclusion that he cherry-picks his "data" based on predetermined results.  Maybe not this time (if you're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt), but I wouldn't bet on it...

Quote from: estar on February 20, 2025, 03:48:58 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 03:32:44 PMI think the focus of this should be Middle Earth orcs as they are understood by Tolkien fans - and possibly different understanding especially for LotR book fans and film fans.

Tolkien fans? All the fans I know of are aware of the points I mentioned. And by fans I mean that group who enjoy Tolkien works beyond liking just the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and/or the films.

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 03:32:44 PMI don't want to go too deep into literary interpretation because it's a quagmire.

We don't have to interpret anything his son make the primary sources available in several books. Letters, drafts, manuscripts, the works. It clear what Tolkien thought of orcs in the 1920s had different nuances than the Tolkien of the 1960s.

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 03:32:44 PMHowever, I also think it's important for broad strokes to understand what is the basic archetype or stereotype that a given type of orcs represents. Just cataloging individual differences in details between orcs risks missing the forest for the trees.

I stated what the archetype is. But perhaps I wasn't clear, the prototypical orc is a sentient being, corrupted from their original form by dark powers to be used as rank and file servants for their evil plans for the world.

This archetype diversified in major ways at three different time.

The first was Orcs as depicted in OD&D in 1974, this was reinforced by D&D rise in popularity and it ability to remain as the market leader for decades.

The second was Orcs as depicted in Warhammer in the mid-80s; this was further reinforced by Warcraft adopting a similar interpretation.

Finally, Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films marked the return of Orcs as creatures corrupted by evil powers. This was reinforced by Jackson explicitly showed Saruman creating the Uruk-hai.

https://www.tk421.net/lotr/film/fotr/27.html

All three have a foothold in the minds of today's hobbyists.

Yep.  Orcs are the stormtroopers of fantasy RPGs.  Or maybe stormtroopers are the orcs of space opera (orcs did come first)?

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 20, 2025, 05:11:41 PMYep.  Orcs are the stormtroopers of fantasy RPGs.  Or maybe stormtroopers are the orcs of space opera (orcs did come first)?

Orcs don't miss all the time.

Quote from: Shteve on February 20, 2025, 05:21:36 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 20, 2025, 05:11:41 PMYep.  Orcs are the stormtroopers of fantasy RPGs.  Or maybe stormtroopers are the orcs of space opera (orcs did come first)?

Orcs don't miss all the time.

Neither do stormtroopers... just ask Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 20, 2025, 05:11:41 PM

Quote from: estar on February 20, 2025, 03:48:58 PMI stated what the archetype is. But perhaps I wasn't clear, the prototypical orc is a sentient being, corrupted from their original form by dark powers to be used as rank and file servants for their evil plans for the world.

This archetype diversified in major ways at three different time.

The first was Orcs as depicted in OD&D in 1974, this was reinforced by D&D rise in popularity and it ability to remain as the market leader for decades.

The second was Orcs as depicted in Warhammer in the mid-80s; this was further reinforced by Warcraft adopting a similar interpretation.

Finally, Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films marked the return of Orcs as creatures corrupted by evil powers. This was reinforced by Jackson explicitly showed Saruman creating the Uruk-hai.

https://www.tk421.net/lotr/film/fotr/27.html

All three have a foothold in the minds of today's hobbyists.

Yep.  Orcs are the stormtroopers of fantasy RPGs.  Or maybe stormtroopers are the orcs of space opera (orcs did come first)?

I agree with estar that D&D, Warhammer, and Warcraft were significant splits to the archetype. Most of those did not highlight orcs as being corrupted from an original form.

In D&D, the orc background was majorly influenced by Roger Moore's creation myth in Dragon #62. That portrayed orcs not as a corruption, but as a force in themselves - seeking revenge on other races.



It also seems to me that in D&D modules, orcs were often a force in their own right - rather than henchmen of a dark lord. G1 had orc servants to the giants, say, but B2 had orcs as their own faction - with orcish leaders rather than a non-orc dark lord.

That was reinforced in The Orcs of Thar (1988), the official D&D module that made orcs and other humanoids as optional player races for BECMI. Orcs and other humanoids aren't servants - they are their own savage civilization. The tongue-in-cheek nature of this is more like Warhammer 40K's space orks.

As also introduced in the 1980s, Warcraft orcs are distinctly more like Klingons - the big powerful proud warrior race.



The more Klingon-ish orcs were folded back into D&D with 3rd edition, which re-introduced the half-orc as a player race.

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 06:12:10 PMI agree with estar that D&D, Warhammer, and Warcraft were significant splits to the archetype. Most of those did not highlight orcs as being corrupted from an original form.

In D&D, the orc background was majorly influenced by Roger Moore's creation myth in Dragon #62. That portrayed orcs not as a corruption, but as a force in themselves - seeking revenge on other races.

No, while Roger Moore's articles were fun to read but they were not influential in the sense of how Warhammer and later Warcraft depicted orcs.

What defined Orcs back in the day of classic D&D was their treatment as a tribal people painted as non-human bad guys. One of several tribal groups in this role starting with kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins, orcs, gnolls, bugbears, ogres, and giants.

Orcs were somewhat more prominent because their association with Tolkien's rank and file baddies. But for those of us back in the day, what was important was humanoids versus demi-humans situation. Orcs were one of the many types of humanoids counted as enemies thus the "bad guys", while the demi-humans can be generally counted as being allies thus "good guys".

This description of orcs in the Holmes Blue Book is typical of that view point.

QuoteOrc
Move: 90 feet/turn
Hit Dice: 1 Attacks: 1
Armor Class: 7
Treasure Type: D
Alignment: chaotic evil
Damage: 1-6 points
There are many tribes or nations of orcs. Members If different orc tribes cooperate poorly and attack
members of another tribe on sight unless under a strong commander. In large numbers, they are likely to be accompanied by more powerful creatures.

For every 100 orcs the chances are:
1-4 trolls 10%
1-6 ogres 20%
In full daylight orcs suffer a -1 off their attack dice.

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 06:12:10 PMIt also seems to me that in D&D modules, orcs were often a force in their own right - rather than henchmen of a dark lord. G1 had orc servants to the giants, say, but B2 had orcs as their own faction - with orcish leaders rather than a non-orc dark lord.

That was reinforced in The Orcs of Thar (1988), the official D&D module that made orcs and other humanoids as optional player races for BECMI. Orcs and other humanoids aren't servants - they are their own savage civilization. The tongue-in-cheek nature of this is more like Warhammer 40K's space orks.

Yes B2-Keep on the Borderlands cemented the hobby's view of the humanoids as the enemy. Deities & Demigods Gruumsh and Roger Moore's Dragon Magazine were viewed as interesting but as options not a definitive take on what a D&D orc was. Which was left undefined as it was for all the humanoids.

All that could be said in the official rules that for whatever reason the humanoids were the bad guys. The why was left to each referee to determine on their own.

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 06:12:10 PMAs also introduced in the 1980s, Warcraft orcs are distinctly more like Klingons - the big powerful proud warrior race.



The more Klingon-ish orcs were folded back into D&D with 3rd edition, which re-introduced the half-orc as a player race.

Well keep in mind the view that Klingons were honorable warriors was a TNG thing. The Orc as a vicious but honorable warrior came first in the mid 80s with Warhammer. Although, to be fair, Warcraft is the one that cemented this aspect of the orc, and the TNG honorable Klingon and Warcraft-style orc seem to have co-developed alongside each other throughout the 90s.

Greetings!

So, we have Tolkien Orcs; D&D Orcs--essentially the same; Warhammer Orcs, and World of Warcraft Orcs.

Ok, great. Some slightly different interpretations of Orcs. So what?

I'm not sure what Jhkim's point or objective here is.

I'm not interested in any kind of interpretation where Orcs are Woke, Rainbow Trannies and peace-loving, dope-smoking polyamorous Hippies.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: estar on February 20, 2025, 06:45:06 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 06:12:10 PMIt also seems to me that in D&D modules, orcs were often a force in their own right - rather than henchmen of a dark lord. G1 had orc servants to the giants, say, but B2 had orcs as their own faction - with orcish leaders rather than a non-orc dark lord.

That was reinforced in The Orcs of Thar (1988), the official D&D module that made orcs and other humanoids as optional player races for BECMI. Orcs and other humanoids aren't servants - they are their own savage civilization. The tongue-in-cheek nature of this is more like Warhammer 40K's space orks.

Yes B2-Keep on the Borderlands cemented the hobby's view of the humanoids as the enemy. Deities & Demigods Gruumsh and Roger Moore's Dragon Magazine were viewed as interesting but as options not a definitive take on what a D&D orc was. Which was left undefined as it was for all the humanoids.

All that could be said in the official rules that for whatever reason the humanoids were the bad guys. The why was left to each referee to determine on their own.

It seems to me that D&D orcs shifted significantly away from Tolkien on several points:

• Orcs being a corrupted from their original form. You suggested this was part of their archetype, estar, but it isn't mentioned in any D&D material.
• The fiendish inventiveness of orcs and their cruel war machines and scarring medicines. This is completely dropped for D&D.
• Orcs riding on wargs.
• Orcs being henchmen of a dark lord. This is mentioned in the 1E MM, but it rarely features in any of the modules or setting books, and is not in the 2E MM.
• Orcs fighting other orcs. This is mentioned in the 1E MM, but it doesn't feature in any of the modules or setting books, and also isn't mentioned in 2E.

Quote from: estar on February 20, 2025, 06:45:06 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 06:12:10 PMAs also introduced in the 1980s, Warcraft orcs are distinctly more like Klingons - the big powerful proud warrior race.



The more Klingon-ish orcs were folded back into D&D with 3rd edition, which re-introduced the half-orc as a player race.

Well keep in mind the view that Klingons were honorable warriors was a TNG thing. The Orc as a vicious but honorable warrior came first in the mid 80s with Warhammer. Although, to be fair, Warcraft is the one that cemented this aspect of the orc, and the TNG honorable Klingon and Warcraft-style orc seem to have co-developed alongside each other throughout the 90s.

I've never played Warhammer, but it seems that Warhammer orcs are somewhat comedic dumb brutes or jocks. This is similar to the take in The Orcs of Thar.

That's distinct than the honorable warrior stereotype / TNG Klingon from Warcraft.

3E sits a little in between these two, I think. Orcs and half-orcs have an Intelligence penalty, but they are portrayed more as barbarians - violent but potentially honorable.

Quote from: SHARK on February 20, 2025, 07:00:29 PMSo, we have Tolkien Orcs; D&D Orcs--essentially the same; Warhammer Orcs, and World of Warcraft Orcs.

Ok, great. Some slightly different interpretations of Orcs. So what?

In Saga of the Goblin Horde, orcs (and ogres) were genetically constructed by goblin overlords to be slave labor. The particular orcs in the setting, however, are free from this control since the nanotech controlling them malfunctioned when the goblin spaceship crashed on the human homeworld.

Maybe I'm a philistine heathen, but I don't really care what the entomology of the name is, or how Tolkien wrote it.

These days we have our own definition.

An orc is a savage race of monster men, often raping women based on the fact that half orcs are a thing, but utterly despicable so as to not create any sympathy when you encounter them.  Kill them all, and don't feel bad about it. 

weirdguy564 -- If you just want orcs to be generic bad guys and not think about any details of them, then probably this thread isn't of interest to you. It's about the different sorts of forms that orcs can be.

Ratman_tf brought up Earthdawn orcs. I only know Earthdawn by reputation, but I know Shadowrun (1989). Shadowrun first popularized orks as a core PC race in tabletop RPGs, I think.



Here, orks are an offshoot of humanity - called metahumans or specifically "homo sapiens robustus". They have big and hairy with tusks, and breed prolifically with short lifespans. They are not particularly evil, but they are a little less intelligent and charismatic than humans. They are typically seen as the underclass of the Shadowrun world.

Earthdawn is the fantasy prequel to Shadowrun.



Ratman_tf mentioned gahar earlier - this is their full description.

QuoteOrks

Much of our history and culture has been forgotten, swallowed by the jungle and lost to the Scourge. Today we are free, but we must never forget where we came from, and why we fight.
— Rogan Crossbite, rider with Asok's Armbreakers

Orks are tall and powerfully built, averaging about six feet in height and weighing over 200 pounds. They are more muscular than humans, and two large lower caninesprotrude from their mouth and cover their upper lip. Their body hair is coarse, and facial and head hair is frequently the texture of fine wire. Skin color ranges from beige to olive green, with tan, pinkish-white, or ebony possible, but less common.

Orks are impulsive and their emotions burn swift and hot, a trait they call _gahad_. They anger quickly, and are just as quick to form friendships. When an ork is driven to act, they act, and some individuals report physical discomfort when they "swallow their gahad." While this tendency can cause problems for their companions, orks generally consider gahad  as a positive thing, a spiritual fire pushing them forward.

With a lifespan averaging only 40 years, orks tend to seize life by the throat and get the most out of it they can. Given their emotional and impulsive natures, ork families tend to be sprawling affairs of half-siblings, aunts, uncles and cousins.

The most common social group is a tribe or clan, living a nomadic existence on the plains of Barsaive. Even the reborn kingdom of Cara Fahd is not much more than an affiliation of multiple tribes and clans. Still, the orks are taking to nation-building as fiercely as anything else they attempt.

While all the races have faced the prospect of slavery at the hands of the Theran Empire, the orks have a longer and deeper history with the institution. Ork legends tell that at one time, they were all slaves until they won their freedom centuries beforethe Scourge. As a result of this cultural legacy, many orks believe freedom to be one ofthe highest ideals in existence.