Quote from: crkrueger on February 23, 2025, 12:44:12 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 21, 2025, 07:52:41 PM

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Quote from: crkrueger on February 21, 2025, 04:33:03 PMThis is all I ever needed for D&D Orcs...

The Grummsh story is cute, but raises some questions about the "good" gods being dicks, and the orcs being justified in their actions due to being unfairly treated.

Well, the point is, no matter what the truth is, the Orcs' entire culture is based on destroying the other races.  Why do Orcs make war?  Because that's what Gruumsh made them for.  They're his weapons in the War against the peoples of the other Gods.  Whether their origin story is true compared to everyone else's, or whether Corellon shot out Gruumsh's eye, etc. is moot.

If Grummsh was just a chaos god of destruction, then he doesn't need an excuse. The chaos gods of 40k (for example) are unrepentant in their aspects. But the story insinuates that Grummsh does have some sense of fairness, if only to make the argument that the other gods cheated him and the orcs hatred (and his) is justified.

This was in the days when Orcs were Lawful/Evil...

Well that just makes the latter argument more likely.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 24, 2025, 02:54:12 PM

Quote from: crkrueger on February 23, 2025, 12:44:12 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 21, 2025, 07:52:41 PM

Quote from: crkrueger on February 21, 2025, 07:08:34 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 21, 2025, 06:44:16 PM

Quote from: crkrueger on February 21, 2025, 04:33:03 PMThis is all I ever needed for D&D Orcs...

The Grummsh story is cute, but raises some questions about the "good" gods being dicks, and the orcs being justified in their actions due to being unfairly treated.

Well, the point is, no matter what the truth is, the Orcs' entire culture is based on destroying the other races.  Why do Orcs make war?  Because that's what Gruumsh made them for.  They're his weapons in the War against the peoples of the other Gods.  Whether their origin story is true compared to everyone else's, or whether Corellon shot out Gruumsh's eye, etc. is moot.

If Grummsh was just a chaos god of destruction, then he doesn't need an excuse. The chaos gods of 40k (for example) are unrepentant in their aspects. But the story insinuates that Grummsh does have some sense of fairness, if only to make the argument that the other gods cheated him and the orcs hatred (and his) is justified.

This was in the days when Orcs were Lawful/Evil...

Well that just makes the latter argument more likely.

It insinuates the Shamans think vengeance and hate are a good way to get the orcs in a frenzy, anyway.

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 08:38:10 PMweirdguy564 -- If you just want orcs to be generic bad guys and not think about any details of them, then probably this thread isn't of interest to you. It's about the different sorts of forms that orcs can be.

I'll be fair.  If complex orc history and culture is what you want, go for it. 

But I do find this thread interesting, so that assumption isn't true.

I don't think the viewpoint of,  "Orcs are bad, kill them," is wrong. It goes along with why D&D is heavily connected to having undead be a main antagonist.  So much that destroying them is a main feature of a main class, the cleric and turn undead.

Sometimes good guys are good, bad guys are bad, and it's simple.  Almost like it was written for kids. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 25, 2025, 08:48:04 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2025, 08:38:10 PMweirdguy564 -- If you just want orcs to be generic bad guys and not think about any details of them, then probably this thread isn't of interest to you. It's about the different sorts of forms that orcs can be.

I'll be fair.  If complex orc history and culture is what you want, go for it. 

But I do find this thread interesting, so that assumption isn't true.

I don't think the viewpoint of,  "Orcs are bad, kill them," is wrong.

I agree that there's nothing inherently wrong with orcs being pure evil to be killed. The point of this thread is to show some of the many different ways for orcs to be in play - including different types of evil orcs as well as non-evil orcs like Shadowrun or Earthdawn.

I don't agree with people who say that having evil orcs is inherently racist.

I'm still trying to consider about the core sorts of archetypes represented.

I'm thinking something like "Minion/Goblin" ; something like "Primeval" (?); and "Warrior Race". I had called the middle one "Brute" but I'm not happy with that as a label, though it is characterized by being stupid and strong - covering a range like the Neanderthal stereotype but also like old biker gang stereotypes.

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2025, 12:31:21 AMI'm thinking something like "Minion/Goblin" ; something like "Primeval" (?); and "Warrior Race". I had called the middle one "Brute" but I'm not happy with that as a label, though it is characterized by being stupid and strong - covering a range like the Neanderthal stereotype but also like old biker gang stereotypes.

In the Age of Sigmar setting, orks are creatures of Destruction, one of the four general 'alignments' of the setting. They are not "evil" like Chaos, but rather are just dedicated to a more primal existence without the taint of Order. This makes them chaotic by D&D standards, but not evil.

Quote from: HappyDaze on February 28, 2025, 02:22:56 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2025, 12:31:21 AMI'm thinking something like "Minion/Goblin" ; something like "Primeval" (?); and "Warrior Race". I had called the middle one "Brute" but I'm not happy with that as a label, though it is characterized by being stupid and strong - covering a range like the Neanderthal stereotype but also like old biker gang stereotypes.

In the Age of Sigmar setting, orks are creatures of Destruction, one of the four general 'alignments' of the setting. They are not "evil" like Chaos, but rather are just dedicated to a more primal existence without the taint of Order. This makes them chaotic by D&D standards, but not evil.

Thanks.

I guess, for people who play orcs in games like Age of Sigmar, what's the most appealing part? And in turn, what does that mean for the fun of playing half-orcs and orcs in role-playing?

I've had a few half-orc and orc characters.

One that I liked a lot was Ufthak Draper, who was a rich orc in a GURPS Fantasy campaign. I pictured him as being like a young heir in something like The Sopranos. His family were arms merchants, who got rich making and supplying weapons. It was inherently a crooked and dangerous business - but they made at being a mainstream front, even though everyone knew that hits and backroom deals were part of how things happened. So here was an orc who grew up rich and educated - he secretly learned a bit of magic of the sort to enhance weapons, so he had a front as being a privileged merchant's heir, but he would absolutely fight for the family and the orcish cause.

I also had a D&D half-orc cleric who was a pugnacious light-domain cleric, constantly making righteous demands and ready to fight if they weren't met. His tagline was "Have you seen the light!" I think that drew on some Klingon-ish tropes, as he was rude and violent, but would fight for honor and righteousness.

Quote from: jhkim on March 01, 2025, 02:06:33 AMI guess, for people who play orcs in games like Age of Sigmar, what's the most appealing part?

It's oddly one where the characters might have the same motivation in-game that some players tend to at the table: fight and break stuff for fun (oh, and for the characters, it honors their gods too). It doesn't have to go deeper than that. The Destruction faction is often a might-makes-right band of rampaging fools so it can be a natural fit if you want to go murder hobo and not be out of place to the setting and source materials. For short-term games, it can be fun.