Greetings!
Yes, I have had to create entirely different forms of nightlife and other such entertainments for women in my campaigns, as compared to men. The women want romantic picnics with elves and fey creatures; they want shopping malls with all kinds of women's clothing, jewelry, perfumes, cosmetics, and toys for women. Stuff that women think are cute, sweet, fun, or sexy. The women want romantic balls and masquerades to attend, with groups of their girlfriends that they can coordinate matchmaking and hookups with, and enjoy endless giggling about sordid gossip amongst their girlfriends. The women want elaborate dinners and costume parties; they want to have all kinds of dances, and to know how good they are at doing dance "X". They also like upscale dance clubs, and restaurants, filled with lots of handsome men, with lots of exotic food and crazy drinks that they can get hammered with. The women also like going to theaters and artistic performances, where they can hob-knob with actors, musicians, storytellers, and performers, as well as getting hooked up with all the drama and gossip going on.
I can--and have--spent entire game sessions where the women just prance about, day and night, indulging all of this kind of stuff. The women love it, and often seem somewhat reluctant to tear themselves away from it all, to go out into the dirty, harsh wilderness, pursuing adventure. Oftentimes, the women can get into all kinds of "adventure" just by visiting a local bathhouse with some of their girlfriends. Add a rival woman or two, and a few dozen handsome men to oggle at, and the fireworks never stop.
I have a merchant district in one city, with an enormous trade center, it's like seven stories high, capable of holding like 10,000 people at once, or more, shopping. there's exotic goods there from all over the place that are available. The women often view a sight like this with huge smiles and looks of excitement--like they just found a dragon's treasure hoard! LOL.
The men, I have to say, are entirely different. They tend to indulge the above stuff out of deference to what the women want to do. Left on their own, the men want to go to a seedy bar, get drunk, have a look about for thieves or spies, or cultists, and take a trip to the local brothel. Then, they want to hurry the fuck up and get their weapons and head back into the wilderness, pursuing adventure. The men tend to be interested in hanging out in town for about an hour, maybe two--before they get chomping at being back out in the wilderness, or crawling through ruins.
You guys have different kinds of adventures or downtime like this with your groups? How elaborate do you get with various downtime activities and adventures? Doyour groups tend to meet lots of different people and seek forming various relationships? Do they ever seek out making money, or starting businesses?
Or do they also like to hit up nightclubs, go shopping, flirt, and chasing gossip? LOL.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Do you like GMing the girly stuff SHARK? I like a bit of gossip and intrigue, but I'd get bored spending an entire session on 'girl's night out'!
A lot of my female players are relatively male-brained, that's why they like D&D, so they tend to like the same stuff as the male players, though there is certainly a lot of variation. I had a gay male player who was a lot of fun as he liked both the gossip-and-intrigue AND the hacking giant monsters into kibble. :D In my current Primeval Thule game, for the players who like hanging-out stuff or gossip-and-intrigue stuff, I generally run it either at the end of the session or blue-book it via PM away from the table. Lady Aeridnis Vorzin (female player) likes gossip and intrigue with the female members of her family and the nobility of Quodeth, while Finnris of the Narthan Highlanders (male player) likes hanging around the fighting pits, drinking with manly gladiators and setting up blood matches. :)
Quote from: S'mon;1079742Do you like GMing the girly stuff SHARK? I like a bit of gossip and intrigue, but I'd get bored spending an entire session on 'girl's night out'!
A lot of my female players are relatively male-brained, that's why they like D&D, so they tend to like the same stuff as the male players, though there is certainly a lot of variation. I had a gay male player who was a lot of fun as he liked both the gossip-and-intrigue AND the hacking giant monsters into kibble. :D In my current Primeval Thule game, for the players who like hanging-out stuff or gossip-and-intrigue stuff, I generally run it either at the end of the session or blue-book it via PM away from the table. Lady Aeridnis Vorzin (female player) likes gossip and intrigue with the female members of her family and the nobility of Quodeth, while Finnris of the Narthan Highlanders (male player) likes hanging around the fighting pits, drinking with manly gladiators and setting up blood matches. :)
Greetings!
LOL! Well, like you, I enjoy a decent measure of gossip and intrigue. Like with cooking, such serves as a good "spice" to break up the steady diet of bloodfests.:) Running extended sessions of girly stuff--to be honest, it's also like spices in cooking. Specifically, much like salt. A little is fine, too much and it can get kind of trapped inside its own kind of socialized hampster wheel. Lots of socialization, lots of shopping, lots of "relationship development"--but not much actually being accomplished professionally, class-wise, or making any significant campaign developments, if that makes any sense. The other guys are a lot like myself--a little of it is fun, and can serve as a break from the constant danger, fighting, and bloodletting--as well as providing a foundation to create more depth in relationships and that kind of thing, though the guys definitely get hungry for action faster. So, having said that, I tend to allow some indulgence for it, because much like the guys look forward to the violence and action, the girls yearn for the "girly stuff." The "girly stuff" seems to satisfy something in the girls, providing them with more drama and relationship stuff, which they typically have a keen interest in. The girls are often far more interested in helping their girlfriend get hooked up with some handsome guy, and navigating a social environment with some female rival, while shopping for new, cute stuff, and developing friendships with interesting people and creatures, as opposed to mowing down more orcs. LOL. I indulge the girls with just enough, then it's time to get back to work.:) Watching the different dynamics play out between the guys and girls is interesting for certain. Then I get them all back on the same page, and progress. LOL.
I have noticed that the women tend to be more interested in particular motives or reasons for going into the Caves of X, while the men are more content with more generalized motivations--there's evil monsters and treasure there, so let's go crush them and plunder them! The women like to know they are helping "Farmer John" and saving his daughter from being plundered by the nasty, mean orcs. Toss in saving the "Strawberry Grove" and "Bruno, the Happy Unicorn", and the women go for it.
Which that all is kind of amusing, because the women can get very invested and passionate about those kinds of motivations, where, ironically, the men can often have a more casual and pragmatic approach. *That* then can blossom into some entertaining inter-party drama, as the women are less than amused by the men not taking the unicorn's feelings seriously enough, or caring about the Strawberry Grove dying, or you know, lots of that "deeper, emotional, relationship" angle. The men are more focused on slaughtering the villains, and gaining gold and treasure. Conversely, the women are more focused on the relationships and feelings involved, are their friends happy and safe, and less concerned about what kinds of treasure they get along the way.
Which is not to say I think it's bad--it's just a different set of priorities, and how those priorities are *ordered*. The men are more into developing the campaign like Lord of the Rings or a Conan novel, while the women tend to drive it more like a romance/drama novel.:) Both approaches actually contain all of the same elements, but the way in which they are ordered and prioritized is different, and the focus provided to each particular element is a bit different.
I often laugh at some of the contrasts. Guy player A can tell me his character's wife's name, she's hot, and she likes practicing magic, and she likes rubies.
Woman player B can tell me her lover's name, what preferences he has, a full description, his history, and extensive detail about his family, and the relationship web involved there, as well as a detailed chronicle of meaningful highlights of their own romantic relationship.
Your Lady Aeridnis chick sounds funny! I can just imagine it!
LOL. Crazy, I know.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I was a bit surprised that nobody has come by to lecture you on how men and women really are not different in any way. But then I remembered that this is theRPGsite.
Quote from: Trond;1079897I was a bit surprised that nobody has come by to lecture you on how men and women really are not different in any way. But then I remembered that this is theRPGsite.
Greetings!
Hey there, Trond!:) So true, huh? Yeah, in my experience, there's definitely some overlap in them having fun, and pursuing goals--but the priorities and how they approach things can be very different. Along the way, of course, I've had an occasional woman player that eschewed the "girly stuff" and was very action-focused, as well as being very competitive. Similarly, I've had a guy or two that enjoyed doing all the "girly stuff", intrigue, going to noble balls, and doing a bunch of social stuff. Definitely they were outliers though.:)
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Different in aggregate? Sure. Different individually? Not necessarily. It's not like all men (or all women) like the same things. I know more women than men who like to shop, but of the two people I know in real life who most like shopping one of them is a guy.
In regards to Shark's question…
Quote from: SHARK;1079710The women want…
I've seen female players want some of these things. Some male players too. One of the adventures in my Honor + Intrigue game that the players most liked was where their musketeer-type characters had to run all over Paris picking up special gifts (a special vintage of plum wine, bon bons from one specific shop, and the type of flower that the mistress likes, which was definitely not roses). Drunkenness, duels, house breaking, and seduction ensued during their pursuit.
QuoteI have a merchant district in one city, with an enormous trade center, it's like seven stories high, capable of holding like 10,000 people at once, or more, shopping. there's exotic goods there from all over the place that are available.
While it might sound interesting as a location in a setting, as a GM I'd quickly get tired of having to generate lots of unique, exotic jewelry and knick knacks.
QuoteLeft on their own, the men want to … take a trip to the local brothel.
I haven't really seen this in game.
QuoteYou guys have different kinds of adventures or downtime like this with your groups? How elaborate do you get with various downtime activities and adventures? Doyour groups tend to meet lots of different people and seek forming various relationships? Do they ever seek out making money, or starting businesses?
It all depends on what the players at the table are interested in. Some players like many of the things you have mentioned. Some like only a few.
It also depends on the setting. For example, if the characters are members of the Rebel Alliance in Star Wars (my current campaign), than leaving the Rebellion to set up a business doesn't fit what the game is supposed to be about. But if they are running smugglers or other fringe characters, if they want to set up a business that's OK. Of course they'll likely have to borrow money from a Hutt or a loan shark who is hooked up with Crimson Dawn or Black Sun. So at some point, some sort of trouble is highly likely to ensue .
Hmm... what if you give the female players a compelling reason to go adventuring? Present sympathetic person/creature unfairly set upon by cruel forces, and then set them loose.
Jordon Peterson has remarked that the female nervous system seems to be wired not for their own sake, but for the sake of their "offspring" - which makes sense as human babies are basically helpless. If this is true, speaking really REALLY broadly, men are "self-driven" and women are "other-driven" - which is not to say they aren't self-motivated, they just need a focal point outside themselves. Develop an emotional connection to someone else and then put that someone else in jeopardy.
It's funny, but I thought this thread would be about men and women IRL pursuing different hobbies and self-segregating by gender. In my experience this is a real thing, especially once you get married and have kids. My Sat night D&D group is definitely a guys night out thing. Just as my wife's dinner club is a girls night out. We'd definitely be breaking a social contract if she joined my D&D group, or I showed up to one of her dinners. Normal adults find this perfectly, well, normal. It's only dogmatic progressives - presumably single and/or childless - who find this sort of gendered sorting surprising or offensive.
I've been enjoying the Glass Cannon Podcast lately, and it has come under fire from the usual suspects for the group being made up of five white dudes. As if it's really so shocking or problematic that a group of good friends are the same age, gender, and background, or that one of the qualities common to a lot of RPG tables is that the players are friends.
But in terms of game content, I've noticed a difference in the kinds of content the players in my mixed campaign want vs the players in my all-guy campaign. Women who play seem to be more interested in romancing, partnering up, etc. Guys I've played with have zero interest in that stuff.
This is reflected in the way the big RPG companies write their adventures in recent years. Paizo, in particular, includes all sorts of background for NPCs about former flames, current romantic interests, couples, in-laws, step-parents, jealousy, rejection, etc. I've always been baffled by this stuff, until I ran a mixed campaign and saw that some women were actually into those elements of the setting.
Of course not every woman who plays is interested in romantic roleplay. As with all of this stuff, it's a tendency that will be noticeable at the population level.
Quote from: SHARK;1079710You guys have different kinds of adventures or downtime like this with your groups? How elaborate do you get with various downtime activities and adventures? Do your groups tend to meet lots of different people and seek forming various relationships? Do they ever seek out making money, or starting businesses?
Or do they also like to hit up nightclubs, go shopping, flirt, and chasing gossip? LOL.
My dragon apocalypse game somewhat mixed this. There was an apocalypse where the surface world was devastated by a plague of dragons, so there weren't any stores or nightclubs to hit up. However, there were a bunch of NPCs who travelled with the PCs - and so the downtime was scenes with the other survivors, and figuring out how to live. There were a pair of barmaids who were eyed by the players - and they enjoyed the idea of having them around, but none of the players were into having romantic subplots. (They were all guys, for what it's worth.)
Other player groups have been very into romantic subplots, though. Some is preference, and having the the gender of the opposing GM or player match preferred gender helps. My friend Janyce had a number of long-running Call of Cthulhu campaigns with mostly male players, who were often into romantic subplots.
I do know a number of players get into resource management which can be downtime activities - like Ars Magica research projects or Traveller merchant trading. This blends into some character creation and advancement, like building headquarters in Champions. In the book Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering, the author describes many RPGs as being essentially "fantasy shopping for guys".
I think this blends a bit into S'mon's thread
"Need for a Home Base" (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40275-Need-for-a-Home-Base). I think a lot of games benefit from having at least a token home base where there is progressive development of some sort - projects, resources, relationships, or other.
My next Sunday game currently has rsvp'd 4 gals and 1 guy - will see if they play any different than 4 guys and 1 gal!
Personally I like the romance and relationship stuff in game with anyone who's into it. I pretty much never* get the chance as a player, as GM as long as the player is comfy I am too. I did recently have a male player courting an npc (Goliath barbarian courting goliath princess) get a bit embarrassed so we quickly ended the scene with "You make out... fade to black." :)
*Except my tanuki paladin, who even recovered from a calimitous sex change to live happily ever after with his fellow racoon-dog true love. :) The female GM is one who likes romance plots and even gave me a tanuki statuette at the end of the game!
Quote from: Bren;1079903Different in aggregate? Sure. Different individually? Not necessarily. It's not like all men (or all women) like the same things. I know more women than men who like to shop, but of the two people I know in real life who most like shopping one of them is a guy.
In regards to Shark's question...
I've seen female players want some of these things. Some male players too. One of the adventures in my Honor + Intrigue game that the players most liked was where their musketeer-type characters had to run all over Paris picking up special gifts (a special vintage of plum wine, bon bons from one specific shop, and the type of flower that the mistress likes, which was definitely not roses). Drunkenness, duels, house breaking, and seduction ensued during their pursuit.
While it might sound interesting as a location in a setting, as a GM I'd quickly get tired of having to generate lots of unique, exotic jewelry and knick knacks.
Greetings!
Hey there, Bren! Man, the whole urban Musketeers thing sounds awesome! I can definitely get into urban based adventures. I watched this series, "Musketeers" I think it was called, by the BBC. It was a fantastic series. Very well acted, and very well done all the way around. I do mix in various urban adventures when possible. The whole shopping fest, yeah. LOL. Coming up with ever-new and exotic clothes, shoes, different perfumes, cosmetics, fine jewelry, and the wierd and cute knick knacks. Yeah, I have to mix in some blood and assasination and evil plots now and then to keep that stuff entertaining for *me* damn it! LOL. The girls sometimes roll their eyes at it, while at other times, they chomp on it with great enthusiasm!:)
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Brendan;1079980Hmm... what if you give the female players a compelling reason to go adventuring? Present sympathetic person/creature unfairly set upon by cruel forces, and then set them loose.
Jordon Peterson has remarked that the female nervous system seems to be wired not for their own sake, but for the sake of their "offspring" - which makes sense as human babies are basically helpless. If this is true, speaking really REALLY broadly, men are "self-driven" and women are "other-driven" - which is not to say they aren't self-motivated, they just need a focal point outside themselves. Develop an emotional connection to someone else and then put that someone else in jeopardy.
Greetings!
Excellent observations, Brendan. Indeed, I would say that is generally true with women players. They are far more motivated by some kind of emotional connection to an NPC. That isn't to say that men aren't also motivated by such--but merely to highlight the tendency towards men being far more comfortable pursuing adventures of a general nature, loosely tied to profit, loot, triumph, whatever--without leaning too much on some kind of emotional connection to an individual or group of NPC's. I've found that women really get motivated by that emotional connection. It usually means that I have to design adventures which embrace several different themes or access points, to fully engage both men and women players. I've done some more simplistic adventures, and the men are like, "Woot! Cool, brother! Let's crush them!"--whereas the women are often responding with, "Why are we going out to kill these creatures? Why do we want to take their treasure? Can we be friends with them? Can't they hunt and eat in the forest? Why must these humans have it all?"
More than once, there has been some inter-party conflict between the women players and the men players. The women often want to find ways to heal creatures, make friends with them, or intervene somehow and negotiate peaceful relationships, and listen to the different creature's and their grievances and problems, either with other creatures, or with the humans. The men are often more like, "Fuck 'em. The Lord says they are evil, they have been opposing civilization--and we get gold, too. Crush them all!" The men often accuse the women of being too emotional, too trusting, too peace-loving, and too willing to disregard the progress and wealth of the human community, in favour of being sweet and nice to the monsters or humanoid creatures. The women often get wrapped up in wanting to help the talking deer, or the band of rainbow sprites, and could give a damn about the uber wood the humans want, or the wealthy mines that the humans want to dig into. The men are like, hey, we need to crush these creatures, and secure these resources for the human community. If we don't do this, the evil orcs on the other side of the hills will get it all, and the humans will be fucked then, down the road. The women snort at the men, and say, "What about the talking deer? What about the ancient rainbow sprites that have been there forever? We need to be friends with them, and help them protect their homes and their families!" LOL. Yeah, I have been amused as they argue back and forth through all of this stuff. You'd be surprised at how passionate they can often get! LOL.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Haffrung;1079983But in terms of game content, I've noticed a difference in the kinds of content the players in my mixed campaign want vs the players in my all-guy campaign. Women who play seem to be more interested in romancing, partnering up, etc. Guys I've played with have zero interest in that stuff.
This is reflected in the way the big RPG companies write their adventures in recent years. Paizo, in particular, includes all sorts of background for NPCs about former flames, current romantic interests, couples, in-laws, step-parents, jealousy, rejection, etc. I've always been baffled by this stuff, until I ran a mixed campaign and saw that some women were actually into those elements of the setting.
Greetings!
Hello Haffrung! Yep, Totally, my friend! The party in one of my campaigns recently met an Elven Sorceress. The men were interested in what magic items does she have? What kind of skills does she have? What are her spells? What kinds of knowledge does she have about the region, and different creatures in the area?
The women? Does she have a lover right now? Who was her past lovers? How is her relationship with her parents? What kind of relationships does she have with her siblings? What is her relationship like with local sorceresses, or any sorcerer organizations? Can she get us hooked up with parties with the local elves and faeries? Would she love to go with us to the exotic bathhouse in the city, and go shopping for goodies with us? We can have so much fun getting new clothes and dressing up to go to the Peppermint Rhino together! Woot! Woot!"
The women players interest in the female elf is entirely different from what the men are concerned with. The women, largely, could care less about her magic items, skills, or what spells she knows. That all is *way down* the list of priorities for them. They have even told me, "Yeah, yeah, that's all good. What we *really* want to find out about her is A, B, and well, C, too. *giggles*"
The guys just roll their eyes at me, and shake their heads as they laugh. The women are quite ernest though, and serious. They look to me, like, well, DM! We talk to her around the campfire. What do we find out? A woman *knows* this kind of stuff, SHARK! We want to know all the good stuff!" LOL!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jhkim;1079984My dragon apocalypse game somewhat mixed this. There was an apocalypse where the surface world was devastated by a plague of dragons, so there weren't any stores or nightclubs to hit up. However, there were a bunch of NPCs who travelled with the PCs - and so the downtime was scenes with the other survivors, and figuring out how to live. There were a pair of barmaids who were eyed by the players - and they enjoyed the idea of having them around, but none of the players were into having romantic subplots. (They were all guys, for what it's worth.)
Other player groups have been very into romantic subplots, though. Some is preference, and having the the gender of the opposing GM or player match preferred gender helps. My friend Janyce had a number of long-running Call of Cthulhu campaigns with mostly male players, who were often into romantic subplots.
I do know a number of players get into resource management which can be downtime activities - like Ars Magica research projects or Traveller merchant trading. This blends into some character creation and advancement, like building headquarters in Champions. In the book Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering, the author describes many RPGs as being essentially "fantasy shopping for guys".
I think this blends a bit into S'mon's thread "Need for a Home Base" (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40275-Need-for-a-Home-Base). I think a lot of games benefit from having at least a token home base where there is progressive development of some sort - projects, resources, relationships, or other.
Greetings!
Ars Magica has some very good resources, Jhkim! I have a bunch of books for Ars Magica. Plague of Dragons sweeping the world? Sweet!:)
I imagine being a man with four women certainly helps the whole romance thing, too. The guys have a limited, but also an important interest in it as well, but how they go about it, and the priorities are different from the women. The women are usually very keen on specific details that the men are entirely oblivious to. Unless such and such actually presents itself somehow to the men, they are usually focused on other things about the relationship in general.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: S'mon;1079996My next Sunday game currently has rsvp'd 4 gals and 1 guy - will see if they play any different than 4 guys and 1 gal!
Personally I like the romance and relationship stuff in game with anyone who's into it. I pretty much never* get the chance as a player, as GM as long as the player is comfy I am too. I did recently have a male player courting an npc (Goliath barbarian courting goliath princess) get a bit embarrassed so we quickly ended the scene with "You make out... fade to black." :)
*Except my tanuki paladin, who even recovered from a calimitous sex change to live happily ever after with his fellow racoon-dog true love. :) The female GM is one who likes romance plots and even gave me a tanuki statuette at the end of the game!
Greetings!
LOL! Great stuff, my friend! I suspect it may be very different from nearly all guys. The atmosphere may also change over time also with the women. Women often want to get to know you better, and become more comfortable and intimate in the campaign, before they become more comfortable being more honest and open with their characters, and playing them in a dynamic manner. Also, the DM has to kind of be open to including all that romance and relationship stuff for the women, for them to feel comfortble in going for it, and seeking to develop those kinds of goals, plots and relationships.
I like the romance and relationship stuff as well. The women, honestly, are far superior as a group, in developing deep, meaningful relationships with different characters, and roleplaying their own characters in dynamic and complex ways. The men can eventually get there, too, but they seem to need more time to develop a awareness and comfort with it. The women, though, once they know they have a green light for it, they leap into it like hungry sharks!
I have found that the game session can't really be timed, or in the sense *hurried*. The women typically want some time to talk and interact with various NPC's, and not feel pressured like they have to hurry up so everyone else can "get on to the good stuff." For women, at least a good percentage of the time, having their characters attend a masquerade ball, socializing, dancing, flirting, romancing some stud, learning about who their girlfriend has their eye on, what noble guy or chick is jealous of them, or opposes thm for some reason--and other things like shopping, and dressing up in "X" and so on--all of THAT is the "good stuff!" Blend in knowledge of petty slights, old grudges and newly-developing rivalries and hatreds, as well as spicing it with genuine plots and wicked schemes of various kinds--yeah, it can be a lot of fun, and also develops your campaign, and the characters in it, to a deeper level.
There's sometimes I think aspects of my own campaign--with the women players especially--really does embrace romance novel and soap-opera elements. Fun stuff, my friend!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Regarding romance specifically,
Quote from: jhkimOther player groups have been very into romantic subplots, though. Some is preference, and having the the gender of the opposing GM or player match preferred gender helps. My friend Janyce had a number of long-running Call of Cthulhu campaigns with mostly male players, who were often into romantic subplots.
Quote from: SHARK;1080020I imagine being a man with four women certainly helps the whole romance thing, too. The guys have a limited, but also an important interest in it as well, but how they go about it, and the priorities are different from the women. The women are usually very keen on specific details that the men are entirely oblivious to. Unless such and such actually presents itself somehow to the men, they are usually focused on other things about the relationship in general.
Actually, I take back what I said about romance. In retrospect, the pattern of my experience is that mostly hetero male players don't want to play out romance with other hetero males. Also, slightly less so, hetero women with other hetero women. But hetero players are usually fine with romance playing off an opposite-sex GM or other player. And LGBT players tend to be comfortable playing out romance with whomever. i.e. A gay man usually has no discomfort playing out a romance plot with a woman, in my experience. It's more about stigma / discomfort than needing to be attracted. And of course, it varies a lot from player to player.
As I mentioned, my friend Jan had mostly male players in her Call of Cthulhu campaigns - but there was a ton of romantic involvement. A majority of the male players were still heavily into that side of play.
Quote from: jhkim;1080024In retrospect, the pattern of my experience is that mostly hetero male players don't want to play out romance with other hetero males. Also, slightly less so, hetero women with other hetero women. But hetero players are usually fine with romance playing off an opposite-sex GM or other player. And LGBT players tend to be comfortable playing out romance with whomever.
This is pretty much what I see, except I've not seen hetero women embarrassed at romance plots - but some women players & GMs aren't interested in romance plots, either not at all, or no more than the typical male player or GM. Off hand I can't recall any straight female GM/straight female player/romance plot situations so I don't even have any anecdotal evidence. The female GM I've had who was most interested in romance plots had all male players. I think I'm more interested in romance plots than most straight male players, though there are plenty others like me (especially among the more thespian types), while female players uninterested in romance plots are more a minority.
This site has gotten so weird about gender. There is a constant stream of kvetching about how 'those other sites' obsess about gender politics, but when I (rarely) drop in here, this is the place where there I'm sure to find active threads where frequent posters blather about what women are like, and what men are like, and how different they are, and how unfair the outside world is toward men, and so forth. It is all so predictably sexist and dopey.
Quote from: SHARK;1080016More than once, there has been some inter-party conflict between the women players and the men players. The women often want to find ways to heal creatures, make friends with them, or intervene somehow and negotiate peaceful relationships, and listen to the different creature's and their grievances and problems, either with other creatures, or with the humans. The men are often more like, "Fuck 'em. The Lord says they are evil, they have been opposing civilization--and we get gold, too. Crush them all!" The men often accuse the women of being too emotional, too trusting, too peace-loving, and too willing to disregard the progress and wealth of the human community, in favour of being sweet and nice to the monsters or humanoid creatures. The women often get wrapped up in wanting to help the talking deer, or the band of rainbow sprites, and could give a damn about the uber wood the humans want, or the wealthy mines that the humans want to dig into. The men are like, hey, we need to crush these creatures, and secure these resources for the human community. If we don't do this, the evil orcs on the other side of the hills will get it all, and the humans will be fucked then, down the road. The women snort at the men, and say, "What about the talking deer? What about the ancient rainbow sprites that have been there forever? We need to be friends with them, and help them protect their homes and their families!" LOL. Yeah, I have been amused as they argue back and forth through all of this stuff. You'd be surprised at how passionate they can often get! LOL.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Thanks Shark. "Greetings!" to you too. Yeah, that sounds familiar but you know what they say, 'Viva la difference'! I enjoy the perspective change, personally. I've always liked having a woman or two in the group to balance out the play style.
My daughters are too young, but I fully intend to introduce them when they're old enough. Between the wife and two girls, I expect I will provide many hours of talkative woodland creature dialogue and palace intrigue in the future - whether I want to or not. Cheers!
Quote from: Larsdangly;1080101but when I (rarely) drop in here, this is the place where there I'm sure to find active threads where frequent posters blather about what women are like, and what men are like, and how different they are
My God! Someone call the Purity Police! :eek:
Quote from: Brendan;1080117Yeah, that sounds familiar but you know what they say, 'Viva la difference'!
My God! Someone call the Purity Police! :eek:
Edit: Found another one for the Gulags https://quillette.com/2019/03/11/science-denial-wont-end-sexism/ This 'Debrah Soh' is probably really called something like John T Ratzenberger III. Either way, clearly in need of Re-Education.
Quote from: Brendan;1080117Thanks Shark. "Greetings!" to you too. Yeah, that sounds familiar but you know what they say, 'Viva la difference'! I enjoy the perspective change, personally. I've always liked having a woman or two in the group to balance out the play style.
My daughters are too young, but I fully intend to introduce them when they're old enough. Between the wife and two girls, I expect I will provide many hours of talkative woodland creature dialogue and palace intrigue in the future - whether I want to or not. Cheers!
Greetings!
You're very welcome, my friend. And also--welcome Brendan, to our forum here. It's good to have you here with us! I might add, we seem to have been attracting a lot of new members recently! It's very cool.:)
Indeed, the *perspective* change when dealing with one or more women that are really into roleplaying in our D&D games is quite refreshing, and fun! Their priorities and focus is different. It has inspired me to change my expectations involving the campaign, what *progress* looks like, pacing, and embracing different kindsof goals. Along with this, I have really had to dive deep into preparing and detailing all kinds of aspects of the campaign that *most* men would entirely overlook, or not be interested in whatesoever. The women players enjoy it immensely, and are very appreciative of the extra attention and details provided to all manner of things. Overall, it provides more depth, creativity, and nuance to various aspects that the women consistently find interesting and meaningful. For many women players--*most of the time*--just hacking and killing things, and gaining gold isn't terribly interesting. I always seek to add more elements that can appeal to not just the men players, but also consistently present a *buffet* of things to maintain the women's interest, and to provide a comprehensive foundation of inspiration and fun.
I think that over some time, with some practice and skill gained--from your wife and daughters--you will definitely notice a different kind of campaign, and they will make different kinds of demands on you, as the DM, creatively.:)
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1080157Their priorities and focus is different. It has inspired me to change my expectations involving the campaign, what *progress* looks like, pacing, and embracing different kindsof goals.
I definitely find that taking a more relaxed pace, with more space for 'talky stuff', is good for women & thespians. :D
It also tends to enrich the game and make for a better campaign overall IMO - the guys who like to hack things have a richer environment in which to do the hacking, and better developed enemies to hack. :D
Quote from: S'mon;1080144My God! Someone call the Purity Police! :eek:
Edit: Found another one for the Gulags https://quillette.com/2019/03/11/science-denial-wont-end-sexism/ This 'Debrah Soh' is probably really called something like John T Ratzenberger III. Either way, clearly in need of Re-Education.
It kind of bugs me that you to cite supposed science here - when you dodged debate on the subject in the political correctness thread, unable to stand having your views challenged.
For the record, I believe that genetic neurological differences exist between men and women.
However, something that Soh's article fails to address is environmental differences - which was a core point in Eliot's review. (I haven't read Rippon's book.) The bizarre assumption of many interpretations is that *any* observed difference between a population of men and women, then it *must* represent essential genetic programming rather than environment. So if we scientifically measure that women wear dresses more than men, that proves that women are genetically programmed to wear dresses. That's nonsensical, but it is routinely asserted about any number of scientific results.
Men and women absolutely differ in their behaviors and interests - which is reflected in brain activity and other scientific measurements. However, it is still an open question how much of those differences are from environment and how much are from pure genetics. Soh ignores this point, and lamely asserts that any observed brain difference contradicts Rippon.
Without addressing this, Soh's mild contesting of Rippon's scientific results comes across as weak. There may well be problems with Rippon's book and her summary of studies, but to criticize it, a critic should dig into the science and address the real scientific points.
Quote from: jhkim;1080164The bizarre assumption of many interpretations is that *any* observed difference between a population of men and women, then it *must* represent essential genetic programming rather than environment. So if we scientifically measure that women wear dresses more than men, that proves that women are genetically programmed to wear dresses. That's nonsensical, but it is routinely asserted about any number of scientific results.
I have honestly never seen that argument made by anyone. Not even once. However, I frequently come across assertion that all differences between men and women are due to socialization. There are entire political movements where this is an article of faith.
Gendered behaviour is the result of a mix of socialization and biology. This is not seriously disputed by the people who study these things, or by any reasonable person. The anti-science ideologues on this matter are almost entirely on the far left.
Quote from: jhkim;1080164It kind of bugs me that you to cite supposed science here - when you dodged debate on the subject in the political correctness thread, unable to stand having your views challenged.
Maybe I'm not sufficiently autistic to wish to argue endlessly over some silly novel series I've not read. Anyway if I'm bugging you, put me on Ignore for a bit. That's what I do when people get sufficiently annoying.
Quote from: S'mon;1080144Either way, clearly in need of Re-Education.
Hah. I do sometimes wonder how many watch-lists I'm on.
Quote from: SHARK;1080157Greetings!
You're very welcome, my friend. And also--welcome Brendan, to our forum here. It's good to have you here with us! I might add, we seem to have been attracting a lot of new members recently! It's very cool.:)
...
I think that over some time, with some practice and skill gained--from your wife and daughters--you will definitely notice a different kind of campaign, and they will make different kinds of demands on you, as the DM, creatively.:)
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Thanks. I've been lurking for a while now, but I'll take the "newbie" designation.
Yeah, it's certainly an adventure. I'm already out-numbered! :D
Quote from: jhkimThe bizarre assumption of many interpretations is that *any* observed difference between a population of men and women, then it *must* represent essential genetic programming rather than environment. So if we scientifically measure that women wear dresses more than men, that proves that women are genetically programmed to wear dresses. That's nonsensical, but it is routinely asserted about any number of scientific results.
Quote from: Haffrung;1080174I have honestly never seen that argument made by anyone. Not even once. However, I frequently come across assertion that all differences between men and women are due to socialization. There are entire political movements where this is an article of faith.
Gendered behaviour is the result of a mix of socialization and biology. This is not seriously disputed by the people who study these things, or by any reasonable person. The anti-science ideologues on this matter are almost entirely on the far left.
It happened exactly like that in S'mon's link.
1) In the book, Rippon argues that observed brain differences between sexes are either exaggerated or environmental.
2) In the article, Soh argues back that brain differences exist, claiming that this finds fault in Rippon.
From Soh's article,
QuoteHow anyone familiar with the neuroscientific literature can argue this with a straight face is puzzling. Even if we were to neglect the thousands of studies documenting the effects of prenatal testosterone on the developing brain, we can look no further than the largest neuroimaging study examining sex differences to date, published just last year in Cerebral Cortex. In a sample of 5,216 brains, the study found significant differences between the sexes. The amygdala, a region associated with appraising emotion, was larger in men, even when men's larger overall brain size was taken into consideration. Another study, published last month in Nature's very own Scientific Reports, found sex differences in grey matter volume among 2,838 participants.
Here Soh does nothing to suggest that amygdala size or grey matter volume is purely genetic rather than environmental. Maybe they are - but that needs to be demonstrated, not just assumed. If there are substantial environmental effects to them, then they do nothing to dispute Rippon's thesis.
More broadly, outside of scientific circles, there are tons of people who assert that observed differences between men and women are essential rather than environmental. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, etc.
Oh, my 31/3 game RSVPs are now at 1 male player & 5 female - I know one of the women well, one other has played a few sessions, the the other 4 players I don't know and we'll make PCs on the day. Should be interesting! *eek* :)
Quote from: jhkim;1080181It happened exactly like that in S'mon's link.
1) In the book, Rippon argues that observed brain differences between sexes are either exaggerated or environmental.
2) In the article, Soh argues back that brain differences exist, claiming that this finds fault in Rippon.
From Soh's article,
Here Soh does nothing to suggest that amygdala size or grey matter volume is purely genetic rather than environmental. Maybe they are - but that needs to be demonstrated, not just assumed. If there are substantial environmental effects to them, then they do nothing to dispute Rippon's thesis.
She does. Prenatal testosterone is highly dependent on genetics; i.e. the sex of the baby.
The thing is: There is a very substantial push-back to any study that concludes that there are biological sex differences in our brain or behavior. But Soh is correct in pointing out that this should have been settled long ago based on data we already have. It is even worse than she says; some of it is even successfully used in clinical treatments on a daily basis, but people STILL argue that there is no such thing as e.g. effect of testosterone on how we feel or behave. Because if they do, then they have to admit that we can expect substantial differences between men and women.
Quote from: jhkim;1080181More broadly, outside of scientific circles, there are tons of people who assert that observed differences between men and women are essential rather than environmental. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, etc.
This is true. And sometimes there might be something to what they are saying. I have run into students who had been told by educated people (no less) that men and women do not differ in libido. I have a feeling that their grandparents could probably have told them that this is hogwash, and they would have been right.
Greetings!
Hi, gang. Can we please refrain from doing the whole modern psuedo-science brain debates? The thread here has been going nicely about game styles, adventure styles, pacing, downtime activities, handling roleplaying with woodland creatures and romance at noble balls and celebrations. And shopping activities. :) And differences in women and male gamers expectations and different goals and priorities during campaign play.
Thank you. I think such would be appreciated by many. Keep the topic on focus, please.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: S'mon;1080183Oh, my 31/3 game RSVPs are now at 1 male player & 5 female - I know one of the women well, one other has played a few sessions, the the other 4 players I don't know and we'll make PCs on the day. Should be interesting! *eek* :)
Greetings!
That sounds like it's going to be an awesome game, my friend!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Shark man, no joke, the girl nightlife sounds super fantastic. Like, sign me up for that game. You want to drop some mad advice on how we can recreate that at our tables? Hell I'd pay for it.
Quote from: SHARK;1080202Can we please refrain from doing the whole modern psuedo-science brain debates? The thread here has been going nicely about game styles, adventure styles, pacing, downtime activities, handling roleplaying with woodland creatures and romance at noble balls and celebrations. And shopping activities. :) And differences in women and male gamers expectations and different goals and priorities during campaign play.
Thank you. I think such would be appreciated by many. Keep the topic on focus, please.
Fair enough. Sorry, SHARK.
Playing here in the Bay Area with the circles I do, I get a fair number of LGBT players, which I think clashes with some traditional male/female divides. Last session of a steampunk FATE campaign, the players all got into partying with a group of wild hookah-smoking toughs in a cliffside city on the border of a desert. The players enjoy a mix of this sort of thing and more actiony-type stuff. (Well, one of the PCs is a succubus who often has to be held back from sleeping with everything in sight - but she's also prone to just beating people up. Demon and all.) The players there are mostly LGBT.
The city is just a dungeon with its threats wearing friendly masks first. ;) And your greatest threats prefer you intimately close...
And now you know why Vampire the Masquerade was an EXPLOSION! :D
Quote from: SHARK;1080202Greetings!
Hi, gang. Can we please refrain from doing the whole modern psuedo-science brain debates? The thread here has been going nicely about game styles, adventure styles, pacing, downtime activities, handling roleplaying with woodland creatures and romance at noble balls and celebrations. And shopping activities. :) And differences in women and male gamers expectations and different goals and priorities during campaign play.
Thank you. I think such would be appreciated by many. Keep the topic on focus, please.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Never! Give me pseudoscience or give me death!
Well..... OK. (Trond tiptoes out and goes back to grinding his axe)
Quote from: Trond;1079897I was a bit surprised that nobody has come by to lecture you on how men and women really are not different in any way. But then I remembered that this is theRPGsite.
Shark, you should be ASHAMED.
You should be ashamed because there is no difference between Men and WYMMON! You are a dirty, disgusting member of the Male Patriarchy!!
How is that?
Quote from: Larsdangly;1080101This site has gotten so weird about gender. There is a constant stream of kvetching about how 'those other sites' obsess about gender politics, but when I (rarely) drop in here, this is the place where there I'm sure to find active threads where frequent posters blather about what women are like, and what men are like, and how different they are, and how unfair the outside world is toward men, and so forth. It is all so predictably sexist and dopey.
Huh-huh. Dangly. Huh-huh.
Shark,
That sound great! I bet my wife would love a game with a mix of shopping and combat! She does a LOT of that IRL (shopping, not combat. Unless you consider our arguments combat. Or if you get in her way when she is shopping.).
We used to play "Rich Merchants", as PCs, in our RQ2 game. Basically, our PCs would dress up as rich merchants, wander around the seedy part of town, spending money in bars and loudly talking about the common people, until we got mugged, then would have to "reluctantly defend ourselves", which normally involved ultra-violence on the muggers. Probably not what the OP would call a nightlife scenario, but maybe it is.
My wife like animals, so she wants there to be lots of things she can acquire as pets. She also wants places to drink, and people's faces to smash in.
One of my male players loves shopping, though, he is happy any time there is a market to visit, especially if it is full of meaningless but pretty trinkets.
My other female player wants to read books, and find libraries.
I am not convinced that any of these things are gendered. They are just individual preferences. The preferences of your players, Shark, may also be say more about how they have been raised than their genders?
Quote from: SHARK;1080011Hey there, Bren! Man, the whole urban Musketeers thing sounds awesome! I can definitely get into urban based adventures. I watched this series, "Musketeers" I think it was called, by the BBC. It was a fantastic series. Very well acted, and very well done all the way around.
It was a very fun campaign. The link to my blog has some of the information from that campaign.
Some of us were watching the BBC "Musketeers" during the same time (real world) as our campaign. It made for good inspiration. If memory serves my wife and I have the series on DVD. I thought the series lost something when Peter Capaldi (Who is he, you ask?) left for a different series.
Spain has/had a TV show based on the Captain Alatriste novels. I wish that would show up on Netflix.
Quote from: hituro;1080596I am not convinced that any of these things are gendered. They are just individual preferences.
A bunch of individual preferences can add up to gender
tendencies. Stereotypes are a lot more accurate for large groups than for individuals.