Are the differences significant? What are they?
Which version do you prefer, and why?
1e uses tables for hand-to-hand combat and skill progression, which (for me) makes it way easier to stat a NPC. Hell, I once compiled all Ninjas & Superspies martial arts forms into PFRPG 1e-like tables for ease of reference, but lost the file in a HD crash. 2e uses the same awkward "30% base + 4%/level" format for skills, and lists bonuses for each level for hand-to-hand combat, much like Rifts.
1e uses quasi-Vancian spell memorization, 2e uses PPE (spell points) for spell magic.
2e has way more world info.
I suggest you get 1e, Monsters & Animals 1e, and a few of the 1e world books (I favor Old Ones and High Seas, but the two Northern Wilderness books are supposed to be very nice sandboxes, and Island at the Edge of the World has interesting setting stuff). 2e has the Bill Coffin world books which are for the most part very, very good.
I'm not very familiar with 2nd, but only armor in 1st has SDC, while everything including characters has SDC in 2nd.
The importance of the addition of SDC to all creatures in 2nd Edition cannot be overlooked as a poor, poor design choice for Palladium Fantasy. Does it make the game more compatible with later Palladium games like RIFTS? Yes, it does. What it also accomplishes is to extend combats to an unacceptable level. In a climate where many games are adopting mook rules to deal with crowds of goblins/orcs/whatever the addition of SDC to each creature including the PCs means that without an increase in weapon damage combats now go on and on and on. Skills available that increase PC SDC and seem oddly out of place in a fantasy game just mean it becomes much more difficult to threaten the players without throwing really large numbers or really difficult creatures against them. It's possible to have a character with more SDC than his half-plate armor has at first level.
Secondary to that, I feel the loss of the individual HTH skills for the martial classes in favor of the standard Basic/Expert/Martial Arts scheme from RIFS etc. means the loss of a lot of the flavor and individuality of the various Men At Arms classes.
I'm a firm believer in Palladium Fantasy 1e or 1e Revised (funcitonally identical.)
Okay, this might be a good place to ask. I recently bought a 2nd hand edition of Palladium Fantasy 1e. I haven't had much of a chance to read it properly yet - what are the good things about it? What are the pitfalls? What kind of campaigns have you run with it?
Palladium Fantasy is one of my all-time favorite fantasy RPGs.
Here's what I think the high points are:
- Martial Classes all have a very different flavor.
- Magic classes - TONS of different types of magic and lots of differences between classes.
- Combat - possibly the only implementation of the Palladium combat system that just works well. Strikes, parrys, dodges makes combat a lot more dynamic than D20 vs AC.
- Armor can be damaged and repaired.
- "Bonus" weapons of fine quality without magic were available from the get-go, rather than waiting for third edition for "weapon of quality" or "masterwork" rules.
- GREAT races that aren't solely Tolkien riffs.
- Huge initial list of weapons, equipment, trade goods, etc...
I probably forgot some stuff... The game world itself is well done, and you'd be well served grabbing The Old Ones and Adventure on the High Seas.
What do you guys mean when you say that magic is "pseudo-Vancian" in 1e, as opposed to the spell points in 2e? Wouldn't it make sense then to just get 2e if one wants a different OS take on fantasy than D&D?
Also, any online place where I could buy a used copy of Palladium 1e? I searched the intarwebz a bit and I found tons of used copies of 2e, but didn't get any luck on the 1e front. (forget PDFs, I need a print copy to actually read the whole thing)
Quote from: colwebbsfmc;611981Palladium Fantasy is one of my all-time favorite fantasy RPGs.
Here's what I think the high points are:
- Martial Classes all have a very different flavor.
- Magic classes - TONS of different types of magic and lots of differences between classes.
- Combat - possibly the only implementation of the Palladium combat system that just works well. Strikes, parrys, dodges makes combat a lot more dynamic than D20 vs AC.
- Armor can be damaged and repaired.
- "Bonus" weapons of fine quality without magic were available from the get-go, rather than waiting for third edition for "weapon of quality" or "masterwork" rules.
- GREAT races that aren't solely Tolkien riffs.
- Huge initial list of weapons, equipment, trade goods, etc...
I probably forgot some stuff... The game world itself is well done, and you'd be well served grabbing The Old Ones and Adventure on the High Seas.
As a huge fan, would you advise me to go for 2e, or 1e Palladium fantasy?
If memory serves, the 1E spell system let you cast a certain number of spells regardless of level (so long as you were high enough level to cast them). That's different from the "so many of level X" system in D&D. I have not played 2E, but my impression is that magic points are similar to the system in the old Mechanoids trilogy.
SDC for all sorts of critters (as opposed to for armor) looks like a bizarre idea, and I wonder both what it is supposed to do and how it works. IIRC, you already get more hit points as you go up in level in 1E.
Quote from: Benoist;611999As a huge fan, would you advise me to go for 2e, or 1e Palladium fantasy?
I would heartily recommend 1e over 2e any day of the week. Better flavor on many levels with character abilities and magic types as well as faster combats due to the lack of SDC for creatures. I own 2e, but don't see myself ever running it over 1e.
I don't know that I'd use "Pseudo-Vancian" as a descriptor for magic in PFRPG1e. Basically, a Wizard can cast X number of spells per day, but the level of the spell is irrelevant. Spells are scaled by caster level, so a major-league 8th level spell cast by a first level Wizard will only be marginally effective, but can still be cast at the cost of one spell slot. Also, you don't have to prepare spells ahead of time, if you know them you can cast them until you run out of slots per day. It's more go-juice than it is "forgetting" the spell a'la Jack Vance. Warlocks and Witches (NOT gender versions of the same thing, a Warlock is an elemental spellcaster) use the same system. Mentalists use ISP or Inner Strength Points. Diabolists create magical wards, and can have X per level active at a given time. Summoners can create circle magic, all of which obeys different rules than standard Wizard magic. VERY interesting and much more flavorful than most RPGs IMHO.
In 2e all of this goes away and all magic save mentalism uses PPE, or Potential Psychic Energy like RIFTS uses. Low-level mages can no longer blast the big spells, but might be more efficient firing off small ones. YMMV, but I found the earlier version quicker and easier to teach, but a bit more limiting. Overall, I prefer the 1e version. I like low-level wizards trying to wrap their heads around the BIG spells.
Bill coffin's world info is some of the most atmospheric drag you into the setting and make you want to play stuff ive ever read...the 2nd edition rules are abit crap though so mesh 1st editions rules onto 2nds setting and jobs a good un.
Every account I've ever heard says 1e is better.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Benoist;611995Also, any online place where I could buy a used copy of Palladium 1e? I searched the intarwebz a bit and I found tons of used copies of 2e, but didn't get any luck on the 1e front. (forget PDFs, I need a print copy to actually read the whole thing)
there are 3 on ebay right now (revised). it has 2 covers, the original black one with the red dragon, the other is the blue cover with the knight flying the Pegasus attacking the green dragon.
I highly recommend the 1st over the 2nd and pick up the old ones and adventures on the high seas for more cool stuff (+ the monsters and animals book)
Universal consensus, even on Palladiums own messageboard, is that 1e is better than 2e (2e is basically the RIFTS-ification of PF, for corporate reasons; basically the same reason there's new dragons in RIFTS: Ultimate Edition).
Quote from: RPGPundit;612366Every account I've ever heard says 1e is better.
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It is. Less rules bloat overall, with diverse, playable humanoid and monstrous races, while keeping the novelty of the various magic systems intact.
Holy crap. I must say that's really something to see pretty much everyone here come out for Palladium 1e. Interesting!
Quote from: Benoist;612377Holy crap. I must say that's really something to see pretty much everyone here come out for Palladium 1e. Interesting!
Don't get me wrong, there's several 2e splatbooks that are wonderful (Bill Coffin's stuff is awesome!), but for game? Yeah, 1e all the way.
Quote from: Benoist;612377Holy crap. I must say that's really something to see pretty much everyone here come out for Palladium 1e. Interesting!
That's because 2e substituted the interesting "as close to an AD&D hack as I can get away with" 1e for the craptastic "Megaversal System" (Palladium's house engine).
Also, 1e has a certain grit and enthusiasm that 2e lacks entirely.
Knowing what I know about your own gaming inclinations I think you'll agree.
And how is the feel/tone? Is it very gritty? High magic? High fantasy? Sword & Sorcery?
The setting always struck me as a very weird kind of sword & sorcery.
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Well, it's just Palladium really. It's not your gonzo D&D dungeon crawl. It's grittier than the Princesses & Ponies 2e style. There's madness and war and death and demons with a physical foothold in the world. There's elves and dwarves but they're mostly extinct and politically irrelevant. There's an evil emperor Palpatine.
I guess swords and sorcery could work for it but I think the predominance of Knights and Paladins as the best fighting men might be the more apt clue. The Church of Light is an analog for the medieval Catholic church if, a little cleaner and purer (having active gods and magic probably accounts for that).
Really it's Medieval Fantasy more along the lines of Chivalry and Sorcery. The Western Empire is Byzantium and the Eastern Empire is Charlemage's Holy Roman Empire. The Wolfen are the Wolfen and don't quite fit the mould of Vikings or Germanic tribes, they're almost a new Roman Empire.
Quote from: David Johansen;612644Well, it's just Palladium really. It's not your gonzo D&D dungeon crawl. It's grittier than the Princesses & Ponies 2e style. There's madness and war and death and demons with a physical foothold in the world. There's elves and dwarves but they're mostly extinct and politically irrelevant. There's an evil emperor Palpatine.
I guess swords and sorcery could work for it but I think the predominance of Knights and Paladins as the best fighting men might be the more apt clue. The Church of Light is an analog for the medieval Catholic church if, a little cleaner and purer (having active gods and magic probably accounts for that).
Really it's Medieval Fantasy more along the lines of Chivalry and Sorcery. The Western Empire is Byzantium and the Eastern Empire is Charlemage's Holy Roman Empire. The Wolfen are the Wolfen and don't quite fit the mould of Vikings or Germanic tribes, they're almost a new Roman Empire.
Mostly correct but Palladium being Palladium, it's a tad more gonzo than that.
There's no Eastern Empire, just the "Eastern Territory" that's a fragmented mess of petty kingdoms and free cities.
The biggest human powers are the Timiro Kingdom (prosperous slave-owning assholes settled down south, next to the ruined Old Kingdom, under which ersatz-Cthulhu sleeps) and the Western Empire (evil Byzantium with magic up the wazoo; the setting's Elminster/Mordenkainen is actually a henchman of the Emperor and/or the power behind the throne, and they have magic flying warships and a tribe of cyclops working full-time making lightning bolts for them). There's an actual place called Byzantium, BTW, a small maritime power up north. Go figure.
The North is ruled by 8-foot-tall wolf-people called the Wolfen who are not so much "kind of like Romans" as, you know, actual ersatz-Romans, with togas and marble columns and legions and shit (it's actually suggested somewhere that a Roman centurion displaced in time and space taught the old Wolfen tribes formation fighting and Roman law). It's strongly hinted that they're maneuvering into a position to displace humans, as humans once displaced dwarves and elves, as masters of this world. But they're not painted as good guys or bad guys, just "normal people."
Oh, and the Church of Light -- you know, the ersatz-Roman Catholic Church -- worships the Egyptian gods, complete with high-ranking Church officials sometimes depicted in Pharaonic regalia. But don't worry, there's plenty of other religions to choose from, including thinly-veiled Norse gods straight out of Jack Kirby, and the Cthulhoid eldricht horrors which rules the ancient world.
That's the PFRPG setting in a nutshell. It's good stuff, "gonzo pulp fantasy" is how I usually label it, and I've used bits and pieces over some of the D&D games I've run since I've picked it up.
Most of my knowledge is from the original printing first edition. Second always stuck in my craw a bit.
Still, there was an Eastern Kingdom that was larger than Timro at that point. I had Arms of Nagash Tor at one point, which was mainly a source book on Timro.
The Church of Light does indeed worship the Egyptian pantheon but it still takes the role of the medieval Christian church. I'm not sure who's regalia is more absurd but there's still all the pomp and ceremony and political power.
It's a well conceived game world in any case. Especially with the innner portion of the continent being largely wilderness / adventure fodder and the civilization largely hanging around the coasts.
Huh, almost makes me want to take a stab at a Palladium 1e game, wish I still had a copy.
Well, the nice thing is there are plenty of copies available on Amazon for between $5-10 each:
link to PFRPG 1e on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Palladium-Role-Playing-Game-Kevin-Siembieda/dp/0916211045/ref=pd_sim_b_4)
1e Monsters & Animals (http://www.amazon.com/Monsters-Animals-Palladium-Fantasy-RPG/dp/0916211126/ref=pd_sim_b_1)
Quote from: Novastar;612375Universal consensus, even on Palladiums own messageboard, is that 1e is better than 2e (2e is basically the RIFTS-ification of PF, for corporate reasons; basically the same reason there's new dragons in RIFTS: Ultimate Edition).
I prefer 2nd myself and have said so several times on the PMB. I started out gaming with MERP so by far prefer a system like P.P.E. to cast spells from then a certain number of spells per day.
Quote from: Shawn Merrow;612741I prefer 2nd myself and have said so several times on the PMB. I started out gaming with MERP so by far prefer a system like P.P.E. to cast spells from then a certain number of spells per day.
I prefer the PPE system for spells. I just like having points providing more choice, than spell slots which just seem silly and too simplistic to me.
Other than that, I wouldn't use 2nd edition at all. And that was the first version that I ever played!
I really like 2e, but then again, I also ran Rifts for a year when I was 18. I know the system very well, and it works (even though it certainly has its own issues).
Quote from: The Butcher;612653Mostly correct but Palladium being Palladium, it's a tad more gonzo than that.
There's no Eastern Empire, just the "Eastern Territory" that's a fragmented mess of petty kingdoms and free cities.
The biggest human powers are the Timiro Kingdom (prosperous slave-owning assholes settled down south, next to the ruined Old Kingdom, under which ersatz-Cthulhu sleeps) and the Western Empire (evil Byzantium with magic up the wazoo; the setting's Elminster/Mordenkainen is actually a henchman of the Emperor and/or the power behind the throne, and they have magic flying warships and a tribe of cyclops working full-time making lightning bolts for them). There's an actual place called Byzantium, BTW, a small maritime power up north. Go figure.
The North is ruled by 8-foot-tall wolf-people called the Wolfen who are not so much "kind of like Romans" as, you know, actual ersatz-Romans, with togas and marble columns and legions and shit (it's actually suggested somewhere that a Roman centurion displaced in time and space taught the old Wolfen tribes formation fighting and Roman law). It's strongly hinted that they're maneuvering into a position to displace humans, as humans once displaced dwarves and elves, as masters of this world. But they're not painted as good guys or bad guys, just "normal people."
Oh, and the Church of Light -- you know, the ersatz-Roman Catholic Church -- worships the Egyptian gods, complete with high-ranking Church officials sometimes depicted in Pharaonic regalia. But don't worry, there's plenty of other religions to choose from, including thinly-veiled Norse gods straight out of Jack Kirby, and the Cthulhoid eldricht horrors which rules the ancient world.
That's the PFRPG setting in a nutshell. It's good stuff, "gonzo pulp fantasy" is how I usually label it, and I've used bits and pieces over some of the D&D games I've run since I've picked it up.
How could anyone read this and not think its fucking awesome?
Its what I love about Palladium: for all the shit it gets about being "immature" or the likes, pretty well all of Palladium's RPG settings are very big on having on having some very hardcore elements and very rarely have a "cormyr"-style Dominant Good Guy Kingdom. Whether in RIFTS or the Palladium Fantasy world, the dominant powers are usually Selfish at best, or Hostile at worst.
They were doing "points of light" before it was cool, and they did it way better than 4e ever did.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;612956How could anyone read this and not think its fucking awesome?
Its what I love about Palladium: for all the shit it gets about being "immature" or the likes, pretty well all of Palladium's RPG settings are very big on having on having some very hardcore elements and very rarely have a "cormyr"-style Dominant Good Guy Kingdom. Whether in RIFTS or the Palladium Fantasy world, the dominant powers are usually Selfish at best, or Hostile at worst.
They were doing "points of light" before it was cool, and they did it way better than 4e ever did.
I sure as hell can't, I felt like dusting off my old copy even as I typed this.
Accusing Palladium of immaturity makes about as much sense as accusing White Wolf of pretension; i.e. technically true but irrelevant to actual gaming. ;)
I like to think that Kevin Siembieda learned at the feet of greats like Bob Bledsaw and Erick Wujcik, but in any case, the man knows what is it that makes a setting tick. It's a huge influence on my D&D games.
Also, to be fair, everyone was doing "Points of Light" before 4e. Greyhawk, FR, Glorantha, fuck, even World of Warcraft's Azeroth is a "Points of Light" milieu. There was nothing new about it, just a buzzword for the sort of setting that's hardwired into D&D's DNA.
Nevertheless, Palladium, along with The Known World a.k.a. Mystara, remains one of my two Platonic examples of gonzo D&D-ish fantasy setting done right.
Yes, done right, but extremely different!
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