Quote from: vytzka;562840Oh, definitely, definitely. But it was a step in the right direction, inasmuch as that direction could fit in the AD&D paradigm. But then I'm also one of those weird people who REALLY like Skills & Powers (with a sufficiently paranoid GM).

See, I would think that you would prefer a game that's *not* D&D.  (And I'm not saying that's a bad thing.)  I'd think something like Rolemaster would be more to your taste.  (My "first choice" picks are OD&D/AD&D for class/level, BRP/RQ for skill-based, and Rolemaster 2nd edition for hybrid.)

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;562847See, I would think that you would prefer a game that's *not* D&D.  (And I'm not saying that's a bad thing.)

You're right But it doesn't mean I can't have fun with D&D either, or examine things that I do like.

edit in response to edit: yeah RM2 was my next favorite thing after AD&D2e but I still have a soft spot for it.

I love Non-Weapon Proficiencies. These were great for helping define character concepts (i.e. making annoying special snowflake characters ). The rules for raising them were Scroogy, and you didn't quite get enough without extras from a kit, and some of them were pretty stupid (Fire Building...) but overall I hugely preferred them, however tacked on, to the 3E system where you got a mixture of concept skills and adventuring skills strongly limited by class (i.e. get ready to be reamed hard for taking something that suits your character) or 4Es bland, purely adventuring-driven skill list.

Most skill systems are a mix of 'stat rolls' and 'specialized talent/knowledge/etc'

So, A stat roll sytem is fine, but you need a way to modify it.

For example,

A charisma roll to haggle with a merchant still need a way to give a bonus to a charcate rthat spemt ten years as a merchant. for example.

Also, some skills are hard to do without practice, etc...

I like what 5e seems to be trying by more directly linking skills to abilities like 2e nwps and then given backgrounds and classes small bonuses to areas or sets of skills that are relevant.  Looks like a variation on Castle and Crusades prime number system.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;562847See, I would think that you would prefer a game that's *not* D&D.  

Welcome to every third post about D&D on TRPGS, Phil.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;562894I love Non-Weapon Proficiencies. These were great for helping define character concepts (i.e. making annoying special snowflake characters ). The rules for raising them were Scroogy, and you didn't quite get enough without extras from a kit, and some of them were pretty stupid (Fire Building...) but overall I hugely preferred them, however tacked on, to the 3E system where you got a mixture of concept skills and adventuring skills strongly limited by class (i.e. get ready to be reamed hard for taking something that suits your character) or 4Es bland, purely adventuring-driven skill list.

I am with you here. They also (at least in the case of the phb nwp) didn't interfere with RP but still provided support. For instance etiquette was rolled to see if you knew how to behave in a situation, but wouldn't ever replace the interaction. I was very surprised when I went back to NWPs how much I prefered them to the 3E skill system.

Ultimately, I want to be able to customize and flesh out my characters.

proficiencies, skills, talents, call it what you will.

I am happy if I have plenty of options.

Not  abig fan of 'super general' skills, like 'Knowledge of everything' or 'skilled at all combat'

I like characters to have somewhat specific abilities that are tailored to the individual.

You can do skills in B/X or AD&D like HeroQuest. Write a backstory paragraph (within reason), everything in there will give a bonus on an ability check. If something happened in-story that is important enough to add to the backstory paragraph, add it at level-up.

For social interaction checks, bonuses for CHA/WIS (whatever) come from what the player says, plans, etc., in addition to anything in the backstory.

I know that there are those who lament the arrival of the DSG (Dungeoneer's Survival Guide) and the concept of non-weapon proficiencies, but I am not one of those people.  I welcomed the new non-weapon proficiency system as well as other information in that book, and it's companion the WSG (Wilderness Survival Guide).

Quote from: Drohem;562915I know that there are those who lament the arrival of the DSG (Dungeoneer's Survival Guide) and the concept of non-weapon proficiencies, but I am not one of those people.  I welcomed the new non-weapon proficiency system as well as other information in that book, and it's companion the WSG (Wilderness Survival Guide).

Those two books beyond the Manual of the Planes were my favorites as a DM.

I like having a stated character focus, myself. I still prefer taking things into attribute checks when I can, but I really liked Secondary Skills and NWP options. 3e/4e skills I didn't like so much; 3e became it's own silly minigame, and 4e had lvl inflation and tighter restrictions (I guess I really missed that general NWP table) that just sucked the wind out of it for me.

But NWP and Secondary Skills were fun, as long as they weren't adhered to like a gnat's ass. If they were loosely defined in your favor and allowed hand-waveium so you didn't have to roll an attribute check for something, I thought they were very useful. If they were interpreted to limit who could attempt to do what, then they sucked hard.

But I find myself also not liking d% v. d20. I really like the 5% increments of d20. That and unless the table reads d% as 2d10 backwards or forwards (or use an actual d100) I found it just to be a crappy 1d10 system. The tens place mattered far more with the ones place being a skill sink for real improvement. That and IME the sweet spot is around 65%, so BRPs/CoC flopped hard with multiple tables of friends -- they loved the setting, hated the system. So it was either focus hard or go home, 29% here or 37% there was often just a waste of time/points. I tried to help them through it, but I came to stop fighting it time and again and just went backwards<>forwards 2d10 or switch to d20.

Quote from: Opaopajr;562939I like having a stated character focus, myself. I still prefer taking things into attribute checks when I can, but I really liked Secondary Skills and NWP options. 3e/4e skills I didn't like so much; 3e became it's own silly minigame, and 4e had lvl inflation and tighter restrictions (I guess I really missed that general NWP table) that just sucked the wind out of it for me.

But NWP and Secondary Skills were fun, as long as they weren't adhered to like a gnat's ass. If they were loosely defined in your favor and allowed hand-waveium so you didn't have to roll an attribute check for something, I thought they were very useful. If they were interpreted to limit who could attempt to do what, then they sucked hard.

But I find myself also not liking d% v. d20. I really like the 5% increments of d20. That and unless the table reads d% as 2d10 backwards or forwards (or use an actual d100) I found it just to be a crappy 1d10 system. The tens place mattered far more with the ones place being a skill sink for real improvement. That and IME the sweet spot is around 65%, so BRPs/CoC flopped hard with multiple tables of friends -- they loved the setting, hated the system. So it was either focus hard or go home, 29% here or 37% there was often just a waste of time/points. I tried to help them through it, but I came to stop fighting it time and again and just went backwards<>forwards 2d10 or switch to d20.

With D100 systems like BRP or Warhammer you have to be ready to give modifiers.  It's not dissimilar to NWP's or secondary proficiencies it's just not hardcoded like 3/4e. I think it's a nice middle ground.

It really works well when you have said skill at 29% and you take aim and make sure you have good strategic position and maybe yell "help me with this guy" to your teammates.  Works well for me. Just sayin'.

I'm OK with skill systems in D&D as long as they don't step on other classes' toes.

My favorite is probably the AD&D 1e Secondary Skill list. Things that might be circumstantially useful, but won't have, e.g. a Magic-User outdoing the Thief at stealth or climibing or somesuch; and without a rigorous mechanic attached, allowing the DM to make rulings on the spot.