Quote from: ForgottenF on September 03, 2024, 09:57:21 PMDidn't finish the video, but I got a laugh when she said it was a scary time for all roleplayers. ...Fuckin' why? Is she seriously unaware that a lot of us stand to benefit from WOTC's failures?

Like most gamers her generation, she probably believes that if D&D fails, the entire industry fails.

Which is obviously untrue.

There are literally thousands of other games out there not dependent on WoTC for their success.

There's other stuff out there, and most of it better than D&D 5e.

Quote from: jhkim on September 04, 2024, 12:38:46 PMTons of small businesses are fly-by-night operations that are even more focused on short easy profit than big corporations. They'll have Kickstarters that fail to deliver anything, say, or not pay their partners and artists.

I'm not a fan of big corporations, but I also don't think it's as simple as saying that the guy on the corner is good and trustworthy and that big corporations are evil and short-term-profiteer.

It is very disingenuous of you to compare Hasbro/WotC to a small business. Typically disingenuous for you.

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 04, 2024, 12:53:20 PMIt is very disingenuous of you to compare Hasbro/WotC to a small business. Typically disingenuous for you.

Whatever, Jeff. Comparing a corporation with a $10b market cap to a dude writing indie zines in his basement is perfectly valid.

Quote from: Brad on September 04, 2024, 01:03:35 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 04, 2024, 12:53:20 PMIt is very disingenuous of you to compare Hasbro/WotC to a small business. Typically disingenuous for you.

Whatever, Jeff. Comparing a corporation with a $10b market cap to a dude writing indie zines in his basement is perfectly valid.

I can't tell if you are joking or not.

WotC is wholly directed by people who are video game developers, who see $ with microtransactions.

So D&D will become a MMOG essentially, probably with a mobile version, and micro buys for +2 longswords or whatever. 

And they completely miss the 50th anniversary nostalgia year, where they could have made lots of $.

And the continuing nostalgia buys that older gamers like us could be making because we have money and time to throw into gaming now.  But I dont want 5e, I want 1e or 2e stuff.  BUT you have to MAKE that stuff in order to sell it.

not to mention problems in distribution these days with few hobby stores, and games shops, and the general decline in people being sociable at all.

BTW Hasbro is sitting on hundreds of games that could be reprinted right now and sold to the nostalgia crowd as well.  They bought Avalon Hill, and also got some yaquinto and 100s of SPI titles in with them too.  theres a whole crowd of hex map wargamers that could be expanding.  but they dont know how to do that.  or dont want to.

"But this all idle speculation, Operation Grand Slam will be a success."
Auric Goldfinger

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 04, 2024, 12:53:20 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 04, 2024, 12:38:46 PMTons of small businesses are fly-by-night operations that are even more focused on short easy profit than big corporations. They'll have Kickstarters that fail to deliver anything, say, or not pay their partners and artists.

I'm not a fan of big corporations, but I also don't think it's as simple as saying that the guy on the corner is good and trustworthy and that big corporations are evil and short-term-profiteer.

It is very disingenuous of you to compare Hasbro/WotC to a small business. Typically disingenuous for you.

The Jhkim bot is being disingenuous? Must be a day that ends in Y.

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 04, 2024, 12:53:20 PMIt is very disingenuous of you to compare Hasbro/WotC to a small business. Typically disingenuous for you.

I was responding to Lurker who explicitly was comparing that. He wrote:

Quote from: Lurker on September 03, 2024, 11:19:31 PMI explained it to her like a true/pure capitalist system, a business makes mouse traps. It's job is to make money by making the best mouse trap it can, and marketing that it is the best mouse trap. People that need a mouse trap buy it and the company makes the needed profit (to pay the workers they supply the owner etc). However, in a  corporate set up the corporate owns A LOT of companies and it's job it to make the highest profit it can for the corporation and stock holders etc.  It has nothing to do with 'make the best and market it' it is 100% short easy profit decisions. So a company that saves a 5 cents on each mouse trap, and produces a cheap breakable less effective mouse trap, but sells 100k of them makes $5k profit.

His whole point is discussing the issue with corporations and how they compare to small businesses.

Quote from: jhkim on September 04, 2024, 12:38:46 PMTons of small businesses are fly-by-night operations that are even more focused on short easy profit than big corporations. They'll have Kickstarters that fail to deliver anything, say, or not pay their partners and artists.

I'm not a fan of big corporations, but I also don't think it's as simple as saying that the guy on the corner is good and trustworthy and that big corporations are evil and short-term-profiteer.

This is correct.  The fundamental difference is between the approach where you make as much profit as you can now and the approach where you build something that will provide more profit over a longer term.  The latter approach can be difficult for a public company because they are under constant pressure to keep up their stick prices.  There are also no end of folks who will dismantle and self off the long term engine for profit now if they can get a majority of the board.  Many companies that are focused on the latter approach go private for just that reason.  Either approach can be taken be any company and both are legitimate business approaches.  If you're a customer it's a good idea to know which type of company you're dealing with.

Quote from: orbitalair on September 04, 2024, 01:30:50 PMAnd they completely miss the 50th anniversary nostalgia year, where they could have made lots of $.

It's just another sign they have no concept of the nature of D&D players.

The one big 50th Anniversary thing they did, the history book with copies of early drafts and commentary by Jon Peterson (which I suspect is excellent) had to include a pair of introductions about how everything in the original game was istaphobic.

They had a $100 I was willing to buy the moment I could into something I'm sure I'd accept as a gift.

Hasbro is run by individuals who think most people aren't even NPCs but just drones, worker ants who will buy anything with a logo on it.

Quote from: orbitalair on September 04, 2024, 01:30:50 PMBTW Hasbro is sitting on hundreds of games that could be reprinted right now and sold to the nostalgia crowd as well.  They bought Avalon Hill, and also got some yaquinto and 100s of SPI titles in with them too.  theres a whole crowd of hex map wargamers that could be expanding.  but they dont know how to do that.  or dont want to.

I doubt they want to...they think the ROI on such games is too low.

Also, most of the SPI catalog was bought by Decision. I suspect the majority of SPI held by WotC/Hasbro are the ones AH bought in the mid-80s (Frederick the Great, Conquistador, Freedom in the Galaxy, and some others). They probably also have at least Metagaming Game, Hitler's War.

Quote from: Mishihari on September 04, 2024, 05:54:40 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 04, 2024, 12:38:46 PMTons of small businesses are fly-by-night operations that are even more focused on short easy profit than big corporations. They'll have Kickstarters that fail to deliver anything, say, or not pay their partners and artists.

I'm not a fan of big corporations, but I also don't think it's as simple as saying that the guy on the corner is good and trustworthy and that big corporations are evil and short-term-profiteer.

This is correct.  The fundamental difference is between the approach where you make as much profit as you can now and the approach where you build something that will provide more profit over a longer term.  The latter approach can be difficult for a public company because they are under constant pressure to keep up their stick prices.  There are also no end of folks who will dismantle and self off the long term engine for profit now if they can get a majority of the board.  Many companies that are focused on the latter approach go private for just that reason.  Either approach can be taken be any company and both are legitimate business approaches.  If you're a customer it's a good idea to know which type of company you're dealing with.

OK, now jhkim makes more sense.

I thought that the comparison was disingenuous because in a small business, every customer counts so you want to keep the customers satisfied in order to maintain a profit. A big business like Hasbro/WotC doesn't have to care if the customers are satisfied as long as they are still throwing money at the business - if the big business has the money, they think the customers are drones who will always pay them the money for their product. A small business has to care about how the customers think while a big business doesn't have to care.

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 03, 2024, 05:51:23 PMOne of the key selling points of the new D&D is complete backwards compatibility with 5th edition.

The big lie wotc wants the gullible to believe. And judging from Reddit. Theres ALOT of suckers defending how backwards compatible 6e is.

Quote from: Omega on September 04, 2024, 11:37:50 PMThe big lie wotc wants the gullible to believe. And judging from Reddit. Theres ALOT of suckers defending how backwards compatible 6e is.

D&D 2024 is as backward compatible as the latest magic the gathering card set is to the previous. Same mechanics but different lists with different exceptions.

Speaking as someone who owns the 2024 book and has done a fair amount of mucking about with customizing 5e 2014 to my sensibilities and sharing the results.

But unlike MtG, many of the 2024 lists (spells, characters classes, etc) are similar to 2014 but also different enough to trip up people, which, from my experience, is far more annoying, especially when many of the changes, like with some spells, appear to be gratuitous.

Quote from: Omega on September 04, 2024, 11:37:50 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 03, 2024, 05:51:23 PMOne of the key selling points of the new D&D is complete backwards compatibility with 5th edition.

The big lie wotc wants the gullible to believe. And judging from Reddit. Theres ALOT of suckers defending how backwards compatible 6e is.

Eh, having looked at all the changes its backwards compatible by any reasonable person's measure. It's frankly less than the 3e to 3.5e changes from to look of it and people used 3e, 3.5e, and 3.PF stuff pretty much interchangeably in my experience.

I'd rank it maybe at the 4E to 4E Essentials level of changes (there were a couple changes with Essentials that REALLY PO'd the CharOps boards... but outside of them regular players only recognized the differences as "this type of fighter has different options than that other type of fighter" and that was that).

Could I use a 2014 module for 2024 PCs without changing anything? Yes.

Could I run a 2024 module for 2014 PCs without changing anything? Yes.

Could a 2014 PC and a 2024 PC play at the same table? Yes. The math frankly isn't tight enough to make the slight differences all that noticeable.

Can you mix and match races and classes and subclasses and spells and magic items from 2014 and 2024? With the caveat that you only get attribute bonuses from your race OR background and that level 1-2 subclass options from 2014 subclasses only kick in at level 3 if you take a 2024 class... also Yes.

Will the GM have to pick a version of the rules to use in the few places there are conflicts? Yes. But I've seen house rules with bigger differences than between 2014 and 2024 versions.

Do I like 2024 D&D? No. I barely tolerate 2014 D&D because it's a good group of friends playing it. There are tons of things to dislike about 2024 D&D.

But the claim they're not compatible just undermines the more legitimate arguments against it, because only the most pedantic possible read of a system touting "rulings not rules" as part of its ethos would find such a claim credible.

Hate on for what's actually wrong with it (there's plenty), not for made up sins that will just make others discount the legitimate flaws you raise (many of which are also just core flaws with the 5e engine).

Quote from: estar on September 05, 2024, 11:59:24 AMBut unlike MtG, many of the 2024 lists (spells, characters classes, etc) are similar to 2014 but also different enough to trip up people, which, from my experience, is far more annoying, especially when many of the changes, like with some spells, appear to be gratuitous.

This was an issue in the 3e to 3.5e change too. Some got over it, some never did.