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I just got my copy of Shadow Dark in the mail today and I noticed something. The experience system uses a table that the player rolls on to determine bonuses to various attributes and abilities. My copy of Lion & Dragon uses a very similar system.

I am not aware of another RPG that uses the same or a similar system. Was Lion and Dragon the first RPG to use this? Did Kelsey Dionne "borrow" the idea for Shadowdark?

First, I've seen random tables before. They were in video games, but that's not relevant. 

Second, it's a moot point.  You cannot copyright game rules.

Still, you're not wrong by pointing out that Dionne didn't invent a single new idea.  Her game is just her favorite bits of other games welded together. 

It's very well written, though.  Lots of people don't bother with making sure all relevant information fits onto two open pages.  Her book does.

But, the general consensus seems to be that her game is good, but not great.   It was very well marketed, which is why it sold well.  This is not surprising when considering her wife (yes, lesbians, but not obnoxious about it) works in advertising.

You are aware Pundit has talked about this system before? I've presume he read it, and never once did he mention being "ripped off" or plagiarized.

Quite the opposite actually. Typically when he reviews a game and finds a mechanic he popularized he often gives it praise. the OSR is built on TSR era D&D and extrapolating it's design philosophy. plagiarism is a hard accusation to make when everyone is basically copying each other and mechanics come down to preference.

Look at the magic system with critical failure tables that is a simplified version of DCC magic system.

Shadowdark is rehashed OSR which is rehashed BECMI.  Everyone steals from everyone, you can't copyright game mechanics.

Didn't that Wonderland module by the porn guy do the random stuff on level up? IIRC, it had an Alice class (or something like that)

Green Ronin's Dragon Age RPG did this in 2010.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 27, 2025, 11:25:44 PMFirst, I've seen random tables before. They were in video games, but that's not relevant. 

To the contrary, it's very relevant. I've noticed in a lot of discussion on this forum that people like to pretend video games don't exist, but they're a much bigger industry than tabletop gaming. It's more likely that Kelsey took the idea from a video game than for her to even be aware of Pundit, let alone have taken the idea from something he wrote.

To pretend someone in the OSR doesn't know about Pundit is pretty risible.  Still, whether she came up with a given mechanic independently or used an existing known thing as a template is only important when refuting claims like "Shadowdark is totally its own thing guys with all these never-before-seen things in it!"- which is a critique of the person making the erroneous claim, not of Kelsey.

I completely disagree with the harsh, accusatory language being thrown around in here.

Quote from: AnthonyRoberson on January 27, 2025, 10:32:26 PMI just got my copy of Shadow Dark in the mail today and I noticed something. The experience system uses a table that the player rolls on to determine bonuses to various attributes and abilities. My copy of Lion & Dragon uses a very similar system.

I am not aware of another RPG that uses the same or a similar system. Was Lion and Dragon the first RPG to use this? Did Kelsey Dionne "borrow" the idea for Shadowdark?

Was Kelsey Dionne possibly inspired by something else? Sure. What about it, and how deep does one follow that rabbit hole? At what point do we accuse virtually everything of being rip-offs for using polyhedral dice? Tabletop Roleplaying is an industry built on several pillars iterated on in literally hundreds of nuanced manners, but the core concept of gathering around to imagine and verbally express actions in a fictional setting using random numbers and probability is consistent across every game I can think of. I'm not ready to cut the descendants of the old Prussian General Staff royalty checks because we "ripped-off" their tabletop wargaming.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 27, 2025, 11:25:44 PMStill, you're not wrong by pointing out that Dionne didn't invent a single new idea.  Her game is just her favorite bits of other games welded together. 

It's very well written, though.  Lots of people don't bother with making sure all relevant information fits onto two open pages.  Her book does.

But, the general consensus seems to be that her game is good, but not great.  It was very well marketed, which is why it sold well.  This is not surprising when considering her wife (yes, lesbians, but not obnoxious about it) works in advertising.

If it were so that Kelsey had no original ideas expressed in Shadowdark - and I'm not saying it is so - there would still be absolutely nothing wrong with the product, because she would have sowed it together in a unique fashion, expressed (as you point out) in a very clean, digestible format. It's not like she copypasta'd the 5e SRD and just took a butcher knife to it and added spooky art.

I generally do not appreciate the bitter jealousy I keep seeing around here for Shadowdark. It is no foul on Kelsey Dionne's part she produced a solid Core Rulebook and potentially leveraged contacts in the media to promote it. Do not blame her for being likeable and having friends, nor for her skills in producing a very neat, readable work. Do not blame her because OSR Product A48-E3 did not take off to the moon while Shadowdark did.

I don't know if she ripped off anyone, but it does seem that women have an easier time getting attention than men, even if both are equally good at game design, usually because people like seeing boobs in thumbnails.

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on January 28, 2025, 10:11:18 AMI don't know if she ripped off anyone, but it does seem that women have an easier time getting attention than men, even if both are equally good at game design, usually because people like seeing boobs in thumbnails.

I understand and agree with the gist of your statement - that men have an innate desire to provide for women - but want to point out Kelsey has never once come close to wielding sex appeal that I have ever seen.

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 28, 2025, 10:15:47 AM

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on January 28, 2025, 10:11:18 AMI don't know if she ripped off anyone, but it does seem that women have an easier time getting attention than men, even if both are equally good at game design, usually because people like seeing boobs in thumbnails.

I understand and agree with the gist of your statement - that men have an innate desire to provide for women - but want to point out Kelsey has never once come close to wielding sex appeal that I have ever seen.

There are women who abuse sex appeal to get more views, and there are women who don't,  and both types of women still benefit from appeal and algorithmic "pushing"

Quote from: Venka on January 28, 2025, 09:08:31 AMTo pretend someone in the OSR doesn't know about Pundit is pretty risible.

I don't find it even implausible, let alone risible. Kelsey Dione is relatively new entry into the OSR scene, and part of the DungeonCraft/RuneHammer/Questing Beast/DM Scotty Youtube/Nu-SR circle. Those people rarely if ever mention Pundit in their videos. I can confirm Questing Beast knows Pundit exists because he occasionally posts here, but I've never seen any of the others show a sign of being aware of him.

If I had to guess, I'd say the balance of probability is that she'd at least heard the name RPGPundit before publishing Shadowdark, but I wouldn't be surprised if all she knew was "he's that edgy right-wing guy that makes historical games".

I've started using the eggs of chickens in a square bowl, and using green sea-salt and a pinch of pepper using my thumb and ring-finger.

I beat them with a spoon.

I call it "scrambled chicken-babies". It's delicious. You should try it.

Quote from: Venka on January 28, 2025, 09:08:31 AMTo pretend someone in the OSR doesn't know about Pundit is pretty risible.  Still, whether she came up with a given mechanic independently or used an existing known thing as a template is only important when refuting claims like "Shadowdark is totally its own thing guys with all these never-before-seen things in it!"- which is a critique of the person making the erroneous claim, not of Kelsey.

Look, however influential you think Pundit is, the fact remains the entire OSR is small potatoes compared to the video game industry. Even if we restrict ourselves to just RPGs and action RPGs, we're talking about orders of magnitude in difference.

We're also talking about a mechanic that has been around in video games since at least the late 80s.

Did Kelsey rip off Pundit? Maybe, but not this mechanic. She got this one from Fire Emblem, just like she got the torch mechanic from Zork.

I don't think she specifically took it from Pundit games and it's possible Pundit borrowed it from somewhere else too.

However as I've said many times, I find it irritating how many people think that the ideas in the game are original. If you call them on it they'll backtrack (like the people in this thread are doing) and claim that no one ever said that, the game is good because of its layout, etc. but many people did in fact market it that way to 5e players who didn't know about the OSR.

Quote from: Spobo on January 28, 2025, 12:47:00 PMI don't think she specifically took it from Pundit games and it's possible Pundit borrowed it from somewhere else too.

However as I've said many times, I find it irritating how many people think that the ideas in the game are original. If you call them on it they'll backtrack (like the people in this thread are doing) and claim that no one ever said that, the game is good because of its layout, etc. but many people did in fact market it that way to 5e players who didn't know about the OSR.

But regardless of its mechanical inspiration, 1) It has always pitched itself as 5e-gone-OSR, so to speak, and 2) It is a unique tapestry of mechanics that works reasonably well for its intended purpose.

Even if every single individual element in the game has been seen somewhere else at some point in time, the act of putting them all together in a single product that is not just viable but wildy successful product is proof of creating something new that the market had a need that was not being met.  She's not "ripping off" anyone just because she's using just a similar mechanic unless she copypasted it over.     

Quote from: Corolinth on January 28, 2025, 11:29:58 AMLook, however influential you think Pundit is, the fact remains the entire OSR is small potatoes compared to the video game industry. Even if we restrict ourselves to just RPGs and action RPGs, we're talking about orders of magnitude in difference.

Sure, but she's a tabletop RPG designer, not some rando.

Quotejust like she got the torch mechanic from Zork.

Does Zork even qualify as a video game?  You can play it on like, /dev/tty or something.  Assuredly the huge cultural impact of video games does not include Zork in the same way it includes anything mainstream and from the current century.

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 28, 2025, 12:53:45 PM

Quote from: Spobo on January 28, 2025, 12:47:00 PMI don't think she specifically took it from Pundit games and it's possible Pundit borrowed it from somewhere else too.

However as I've said many times, I find it irritating how many people think that the ideas in the game are original. If you call them on it they'll backtrack (like the people in this thread are doing) and claim that no one ever said that, the game is good because of its layout, etc. but many people did in fact market it that way to 5e players who didn't know about the OSR.

But regardless of its mechanical inspiration, 1) It has always pitched itself as 5e-gone-OSR, so to speak, and 2) It is a unique tapestry of mechanics that works reasonably well for its intended purpose.

1. The tagline is specifically "Old-school gaming, modernized." Which is pretty vague and left a lot of room for the people spreading the game to act like no one had put together 5e advantage/disadvantage, b/x classes, random tables, etc. before.

2. That's highly debatable. The main thing it has is presentation and marketing.

Quote from: Spobo on January 28, 2025, 01:27:45 PM1. The tagline is specifically "Old-school gaming, modernized." Which is pretty vague and left a lot of room for the people spreading the game to act like no one had put together 5e advantage/disadvantage, b/x classes, random tables, etc. before.

2. That's highly debatable. The main thing it has is presentation and marketing.

1) No one has done such a combination of mechanics across-the-board. It is a unique product both in its composition and presentation, which leads me to 2) Indeed, presentation is half of anything, and it was well-marketed, and further, enough people concur with its quality to see the game continue to grow and thrive. The Arcane Library Discord hit 10k subs just yesterday. Kelsey has to be doing something of substance right.

wait wait wait...

Let's not get CRAZY here.

This *is* still D&D Basic here. I'm not even an OSR guy, and I can crack open Shadow Dark OR Pundits stuff and clearly see it's just D&D with different spices.

At this point this discussion is arguing about splitting the pubic-hairs of angels dancing on the end of a pin for its own sake. WTF is going on here?

Nice try LOL.

Quote from: tenbones on January 28, 2025, 01:36:23 PMwait wait wait...

Let's not get CRAZY here.

This *is* still D&D Basic here. I'm not even an OSR guy, and I can crack open Shadow Dark OR Pundits stuff and clearly see it's just D&D with different spices.

At this point this discussion is arguing about splitting the pubic-hairs of angels dancing on the end of a pin for its own sake. WTF is going on here?

Nice try LOL.

The topic was whether or not Kelsey Dionne is a "rip-off." I've defended her and the Shadowdark product, as people continue to take umbrage with its success, when in their opinion {Insert Favorite OSR Product} should've hit it big instead, and it just isn't fair because she's a girl, and she has too many friends with YouTube channels, and lol she's a lesbian, and all these other juvenile complaints.

No I get that.

I don't think anyone needs defending. I think thread is silly because *anyone* that believes *anyone* in the OSR is ripping anyone else off has other motives entirely.

The OSR IS D&D. There is nothing to "rip off".

Quote from: tenbones on January 28, 2025, 02:06:17 PMNo I get that.

I don't think anyone needs defending. I think thread is silly because *anyone* that believes *anyone* in the OSR is ripping anyone else off has other motives entirely.

The OSR IS D&D. There is nothing to "rip off".

Precisely my point earlier, sir.

Quote from: tenbones on January 28, 2025, 10:47:58 AMI've started using the eggs of chickens in a square bowl, and using green sea-salt and a pinch of pepper using my thumb and ring-finger.

I beat them with a spoon.

I call it "scrambled chicken-babies". It's delicious. You should try it.

^This^

In my opinion; ShadowDark, and Lion and Dragons similar mechanics are a great example of convergent design.

I don't think Pundit has really made that big a deal of it. He's gotten far more flak for daring to criticize the hype around the game when it was released.

That being said, if you look at the fighter listings in L&D and SD side by side; Pundit could have made a MUCH bigger deal about the similarities than he has. Any leftist rpg designer would have been crying 'ripoff' to high-heaven.

He doesn't really care. So there's no reason to be offended on his behalf.

Quote from: AnthonyRoberson on January 27, 2025, 10:32:26 PMI am not aware of another RPG that uses the same or a similar system. Was Lion and Dragon the first RPG to use this?

No.  The first edition of Gamma World did it in 1978.

Mordheim had a random benefits chart for advancement. So, it's existed in wargames for decades as well.

Quote from: Quasquetonian on January 28, 2025, 02:29:46 PM

Quote from: AnthonyRoberson on January 27, 2025, 10:32:26 PMI am not aware of another RPG that uses the same or a similar system. Was Lion and Dragon the first RPG to use this?

No.  The first edition of Gamma World did it in 1978.

Gak!  She stole it from an even older source then!   And so did the pundit!?!?   :)   Obviously not true that any of it is theft unless its directly copypasted otherwise every single RPG would have to be paying a trivial license to D&D for rolling dice that aren't d6's for a character.   It's a ridiculous standard/expectation to think that every rpg needs to reinvent the wheel when frankly a different tire tread and hubcap pattern is plenty enough differentiation.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 27, 2025, 11:30:32 PMYou are aware Pundit has talked about this system before? I've presume he read it, and never once did he mention being "ripped off" or plagiarized.

Quite the opposite actually. Typically when he reviews a game and finds a mechanic he popularized he often gives it praise. the OSR is built on TSR era D&D and extrapolating it's design philosophy. plagiarism is a hard accusation to make when everyone is basically copying each other and mechanics come down to preference.

Yes. The OSR is about creating ideas and techniques in game design that other people should then use if they are good.
The problem I had was how Shadowdark was appearing to be promoted as though all the mechanics in it were radical new concepts, when almost all of them were in my Lion & Dragon YEARS earlier, and in other OSR games.

Note: Kelsey has since stated clearly that she did in fact borrow mechanics for Shadowdark, though she continues to claim that none of them were from me

I was never able to explain the spectacular success of Shadowdark: there are much better games out there which have been released in the last 4-5 years. A re-hashed OSR game in a black-and-white book with a torch gimmick and some elements pulled from DCC would not have gotten 1000 copies sold if a guy without connections had written it

Now Shadowdark is not a *bad* game. I've played it at conventions and had some fun. But it is absolutely not some game-changing system which everyone needs to go out and purchase.

The game was heavily hyped by industry insiders, Youtube personalities, and shills on reddit and elsewhere. There was an advertising budget involved as well.

There is just NO way this product goes on to score a 1.3 million dollar Kickstarter, when even the most well-known authors with decades of experience, with more elaborate projects, earn 1/4th of that at best. And projects like Shadows of Esteren, which was gorgeous, innovative, etc. raised 129k in their very successful KS.

I suspect there was a lot going on behind the scenes with this one. And it goes beyond a bunch of thirsty gamers

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 28, 2025, 07:34:00 PMI was never able to explain the spectacular success of Shadowdark: there are much better games out there which have been released in the last 4-5 years. A re-hashed OSR game in a black-and-white book with a torch gimmick and some elements pulled from DCC would not have gotten 1000 copies sold if a guy without connections had written it

Now Shadowdark is not a *bad* game. I've played it at conventions and had some fun. But it is absolutely not some game-changing system which everyone needs to go out and purchase.

The game was heavily hyped by industry insiders, Youtube personalities, and shills on reddit and elsewhere. There was an advertising budget involved as well.

There is just NO way this product goes on to score a 1.3 million dollar Kickstarter, when even the most well-known authors with decades of experience, with more elaborate projects, earn 1/4th of that at best. And projects like Shadows of Esteren, which was gorgeous, innovative, etc. raised 129k in their very successful KS.

I suspect there was a lot going on behind the scenes with this one. And it goes beyond a bunch of thirsty gamers

A lot going on behind the scenes like asking her friends to talk about her game, like normal people do?

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 28, 2025, 06:30:48 PMNote: Kelsey has since stated clearly that she did in fact borrow mechanics for Shadowdark, though she continues to claim that none of them were from me

Good day sir, I appreciate your forum very much. Please help me understand your perspective as I suspect I'm missing context, do you require others to cite all inspiration for their works, or are you uniquely bothered by the supposed mass-perception Shadowdark is an entirely original and unique creation in a vacuum?

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 29, 2025, 08:37:41 AM

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 28, 2025, 07:34:00 PMI was never able to explain the spectacular success of Shadowdark: there are much better games out there which have been released in the last 4-5 years. A re-hashed OSR game in a black-and-white book with a torch gimmick and some elements pulled from DCC would not have gotten 1000 copies sold if a guy without connections had written it

Now Shadowdark is not a *bad* game. I've played it at conventions and had some fun. But it is absolutely not some game-changing system which everyone needs to go out and purchase.

The game was heavily hyped by industry insiders, Youtube personalities, and shills on reddit and elsewhere. There was an advertising budget involved as well.

There is just NO way this product goes on to score a 1.3 million dollar Kickstarter, when even the most well-known authors with decades of experience, with more elaborate projects, earn 1/4th of that at best. And projects like Shadows of Esteren, which was gorgeous, innovative, etc. raised 129k in their very successful KS.

I suspect there was a lot going on behind the scenes with this one. And it goes beyond a bunch of thirsty gamers

A lot going on behind the scenes like asking her friends to talk about her game, like normal people do?

QuoteI think it depends who her "friends" are. One broke-ass gamer telling another to buy his new game doesn't yield KS results like Shadowdark did

But if a gamer has friends in high places (advertising executives, major YouTube personalities who are backed by Hasbro and other companies, rich parents, etc.) it is another matter entirely

if I produce a game and go advertise it on reddit, Dragonsfoot, Enworld, etc. I will be told to fu** off, and not to pimp my product or shill my merchandise on those sites. If I am a young female, the response will be completely opposite.

but even that doesn't explain the success of Shadowdark. Kelsey is the Janet Jackson of the RPG world: a manufactured talent with a lot of great marketing, and not a whole lot of talent.

and again, doesn't mean her game is bad. Just means it is wildly overhyped and didn't deserve anywhere near the response and sales it got. Not even 1/10th

Yeah, the internet and people in general let women get away through life on easy mode, doing favors, letting posts get through without being shut down, because how many women actually write RPG games? But how many men write games?  "oh ANOTHER game written by a man, shut up, go away, you're not worth getting attention" 

Shadowdark is a fine game, its easy enough for the crayon eaters who usually play 5e to enjoy, and all the people on youtube told them to play it too, and its written by a woman! a woman who fits the demographic we want to see represented more! Not only can you support an independent creator but the socially acceptable kind of independent creator!

Peh! I've seen better RPGs for free on RPG blogs.

I'm glad she's successful, she has put a lot of work into it, but the lightning strike of success is so random and mysterious you often see people who you think deserve success not get it.

I again completely disagree with the frustrated angst being vented at Kelsey Dionne for daring to be successful and chip away at WotC's market share. There is absolutely no foul play in asking well-connected friends to help spread the word about their title (if that's even what happened), that's nothing sinister on conspiratorial. It's not Kelsey's fault {INSERT OSR TITLE} didn't take off while hers did, she has done nothing to hurt anyone else, and people should find a more worthy target to complain about.

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 29, 2025, 12:51:26 PMI again completely disagree with the frustrated angst being vented at Kelsey Dionne for daring to be successful and chip away at WotC's market share. There is absolutely no foul play in asking well-connected friends to help spread the word about their title (if that's even what happened), that's nothing sinister on conspiratorial. It's not Kelsey's fault {INSERT OSR TITLE} didn't take off while hers did, she has done nothing to hurt anyone else, and people should find a more worthy target to complain about.

Agreed.  Two things can be true at the same time.  Some industry elitists amplified it because of identity politics while genuine rpg fans simultaneously supported it en masse because it scratched an itch they had/was a quality product/struck while the OGL debacle iron was hot.

I bought a copy of the rulebook and it looks interesting, though I haven't played it. As to success and who's deserving - we can argue about it in any endeavor - some great authors never get published while terrible writers get blockbusters. Or movies, or, well pretty much anything in the arts. Sht just happens.

Not knowing anything about this author and what went into publishing it (I discovered it well after the KS was completed), she clearly put a lot of effort into picking and choosing from all the various rules to make what she wanted. She made sure she got good art. She put effort into marketing it. Sure, halo effect and all that - she's a better spokesperson for the product than probably a ton of other creators - and there was probably a timing thing related to the OGL mess.

I'm glad she was successful. I'm sure the next great successful RPG will follow a different path and a crap ton of potentially good RPGs will never become popular. C'est la vie.

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 29, 2025, 08:37:41 AM

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 28, 2025, 07:34:00 PMI was never able to explain the spectacular success of Shadowdark: there are much better games out there which have been released in the last 4-5 years. A re-hashed OSR game in a black-and-white book with a torch gimmick and some elements pulled from DCC would not have gotten 1000 copies sold if a guy without connections had written it

Now Shadowdark is not a *bad* game. I've played it at conventions and had some fun. But it is absolutely not some game-changing system which everyone needs to go out and purchase.

The game was heavily hyped by industry insiders, Youtube personalities, and shills on reddit and elsewhere. There was an advertising budget involved as well.

There is just NO way this product goes on to score a 1.3 million dollar Kickstarter, when even the most well-known authors with decades of experience, with more elaborate projects, earn 1/4th of that at best. And projects like Shadows of Esteren, which was gorgeous, innovative, etc. raised 129k in their very successful KS.

I suspect there was a lot going on behind the scenes with this one. And it goes beyond a bunch of thirsty gamers

A lot going on behind the scenes like asking her friends to talk about her game, like normal people do?

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 28, 2025, 06:30:48 PMNote: Kelsey has since stated clearly that she did in fact borrow mechanics for Shadowdark, though she continues to claim that none of them were from me

Good day sir, I appreciate your forum very much. Please help me understand your perspective as I suspect I'm missing context, do you require others to cite all inspiration for their works, or are you uniquely bothered by the supposed mass-perception Shadowdark is an entirely original and unique creation in a vacuum?

The latter. Shadowdark was largely (at least initially) sold to the 5e crowd, not the OSR. And a lot of the 5e influencers were talking about the game as if every one of the many many mechanics that have been in the OSR for in some cases over a decade were BRAND NEW and proof of Kelsey's absolute utter genius, and that therefore Shadowdark was a UNIQUE and REVOLUTIONARY game. When in fact its neither.

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 28, 2025, 07:34:00 PMI was never able to explain the spectacular success of Shadowdark: there are much better games out there which have been released in the last 4-5 years.

I think it was a mix of a few things. She had a decent size following in the 5e scene and had spent a lot of time building up mailing lists and marketing targets for those people. She wasn't starting from zero, marketing-wise. For the Kickstarter, she did some very well placed sponsorships on Youtube. I also think the Kickstarter launched around the time of the WoTC OGL scandal, people were looking for an alternative at that moment(Pathfinder 2e sales went nuts as well). And finally, I think she herself brings a bit of image for the game itself, along with being friends with some other RPG darlings. That's not something I think she cultivated intentionally, it just is what it is.

Tie that together with a pretty good, easy to pickup/run base game and it's not that big of a surprise it did so well. I actually like it, but feel like the way it was play tested(con games) makes it more suited for short lived games. Perfect for running at a store with randoms, not something you wanna run for a 5 year campaign with your friends.

Quote from: Dracones on January 30, 2025, 06:06:32 PM

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 28, 2025, 07:34:00 PMI was never able to explain the spectacular success of Shadowdark: there are much better games out there which have been released in the last 4-5 years.

I think it was a mix of a few things. She had a decent size following in the 5e scene and had spent a lot of time building up mailing lists and marketing targets for those people. She wasn't starting from zero, marketing-wise. For the Kickstarter, she did some very well placed sponsorships on Youtube. I also think the Kickstarter launched around the time of the WoTC OGL scandal, people were looking for an alternative at that moment(Pathfinder 2e sales went nuts as well). And finally, I think she herself brings a bit of image for the game itself, along with being friends with some other RPG darlings. That's not something I think she cultivated intentionally, it just is what it is.

Tie that together with a pretty good, easy to pickup/run base game and it's not that big of a surprise it did so well. I actually like it, but feel like the way it was play tested(con games) makes it more suited for short lived games. Perfect for running at a store with randoms, not something you wanna run for a 5 year campaign with your friends.

If a decent looking woman who has all of her teeth, bathes daily, has a friendly personality, and shares common interests with a whole lot of men; puts together a good product, which is well organized and presented well, succeeds? 

I'm not too surprised.  Men want to do business, with women who aren't bitches.  Another female can do likewise, tomorrow.

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 28, 2025, 01:32:34 PM

Quote from: Spobo on January 28, 2025, 01:27:45 PM1. The tagline is specifically "Old-school gaming, modernized." Which is pretty vague and left a lot of room for the people spreading the game to act like no one had put together 5e advantage/disadvantage, b/x classes, random tables, etc. before.

2. That's highly debatable. The main thing it has is presentation and marketing.

1) No one has done such a combination of mechanics across-the-board. It is a unique product both in its composition and presentation, which leads me to 2) Indeed, presentation is half of anything, and it was well-marketed, and further, enough people concur with its quality to see the game continue to grow and thrive. The Arcane Library Discord hit 10k subs just yesterday. Kelsey has to be doing something of substance right.

That's really just not true. Yes, that specific grouping of mechanics, 5e advantage/disadvantage, plus this particular version of DCC's roll to cast, plus a real time torch gimmick, may not have been placed exactly together in this way. (It may have if you look on Drivethrurpg or blogs long enough.) But there are plenty of BX/5e hybrids, there are plenty of OSR games that implement advantage/disadvantage, there are plenty of games that borrow from DCC, there are plenty of games that do combinations of these kinds of mechanics "across the board." It's not this sweeping universal old school dungeon crawler that's never been tried.

We go back to the presentation thing again. Every single time this stuff gets pointed out, people fall back on "well it was presented better. It was marketed better. All the other OSR games should have done a better job." Something something free market, something something it's popular. Okay, and?

I'm not saying they have to be original or that other games are more original, it's just really annoying when people say they're original > get called on it > go back to "the presentation is original" motte and bailey argument.

To the point of the thread, I'll actually say that the random character advancement is easily one of the weakest parts of the system. I don't like it in Pundit's games either, no offense to him.

More problems with the system no one actually talks about:
*All conditions and special rules in combat are basically handwaved away as "use advantage/disadvantage and common sense".
*Spell and monster descriptions are sparse and unhelpful. Priority was given to increasing the amount of white space on the page instead of utility for gameplay.
*PC Goblins can't be surprised. You know, a major part of the game focused on traveling into the unknown? Just ignore it. The other race abilities aren't much better.
*The real time torch gimmick is probably fun for one shots, but annoying in the long term. It's just that, it's a gimmick. It's immersion breaking and doesn't make sense in the fiction, especially given that stuff in real life, like the pace of the GM's narration or someone getting up for snacks, is going to affect it a lot. You can't have one light source, then light another one in the middle of the timer, it "rides along." I understand why, it would be an additional thing to keep track of and the game should be simple. But if the entire game is focused on the palpable darkness and lighting conditions, you would think there would be more care put into it.
*Compared to a lot of other games, the random tables are anemic. They seem to exist mostly just to hype up people who are unfamiliar with wacky random tables or to establish OSR cred.
*In general it includes watered down versions of things that other games do better. Watered down DCC 0-level funnel, watered down DCC roll to cast, watered down spell mishaps, watered down carousing table, watered down loot tables, watered down 5e stuff. It's all present but it has no depth to it. It's certainly useful at the table and probably easy to run, but there's nothing super compelling that makes me really want to dig into it and play multiple sessions, especially when the random results start to repeat.

The response to this is probably "customize the game for yourself, houserule it." Okay but you're asking me to pay 30-60 dollars for what are essentially a collection of houserules anyway, plus some nice art.

Quote from: Dracones on January 30, 2025, 06:06:32 PM

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 28, 2025, 07:34:00 PMI was never able to explain the spectacular success of Shadowdark: there are much better games out there which have been released in the last 4-5 years.

I think it was a mix of a few things. She had a decent size following in the 5e scene and had spent a lot of time building up mailing lists and marketing targets for those people. She wasn't starting from zero, marketing-wise. For the Kickstarter, she did some very well placed sponsorships on Youtube. I also think the Kickstarter launched around the time of the WoTC OGL scandal, people were looking for an alternative at that moment(Pathfinder 2e sales went nuts as well). And finally, I think she herself brings a bit of image for the game itself, along with being friends with some other RPG darlings. That's not something I think she cultivated intentionally, it just is what it is.

Tie that together with a pretty good, easy to pickup/run base game and it's not that big of a surprise it did so well. I actually like it, but feel like the way it was play tested(con games) makes it more suited for short lived games. Perfect for running at a store with randoms, not something you wanna run for a 5 year campaign with your friends.

A couple thoughts on this

1. She was selling some 5e PDFs on her site and elsewhere for a few years. I had never heard of her, but I don't travel in the 5e crowd. Nothing wrong with her stuff, it looks decent.
2. The KS generated over 1.3 million. That is roughly 30,000 people purchasing the game. I am pretty certain, based on other people I know who are selling RPGs, have much larger sites and marketplaces, that she had nowhere near 30k customers in the Arcane Library, and probably had a couple thousand people in her mailing list tops.
3. No one cared about the OGL issue within 5e circles save for a handful of creators and the OSR crowd. It was a non-factor.

She sold the game through influencer farming (see my post on this), an advertising budget that may have been supplemented by another entity, fake shill accounts on reddit and many other sites (and some no fake), and clever promotion.

None of that is illegal, but let's not pretend this game was successful on its merits: it was a big success because of marketing hype and a female author.

Quote from: Spobo on January 31, 2025, 08:32:58 AMMore problems with the system no one actually talks about:
*All conditions and special rules in combat are basically handwaved away as "use advantage/disadvantage and common sense".
*Spell and monster descriptions are sparse and unhelpful. Priority was given to increasing the amount of white space on the page instead of utility for gameplay.
*PC Goblins can't be surprised. You know, a major part of the game focused on traveling into the unknown? Just ignore it. The other race abilities aren't much better.
*The real time torch gimmick is probably fun for one shots, but annoying in the long term. It's just that, it's a gimmick. It's immersion breaking and doesn't make sense in the fiction, especially given that stuff in real life, like the pace of the GM's narration or someone getting up for snacks, is going to affect it a lot. You can't have one light source, then light another one in the middle of the timer, it "rides along." I understand why, it would be an additional thing to keep track of and the game should be simple. But if the entire game is focused on the palpable darkness and lighting conditions, you would think there would be more care put into it.
*Compared to a lot of other games, the random tables are anemic. They seem to exist mostly just to hype up people who are unfamiliar with wacky random tables or to establish OSR cred.
*In general it includes watered down versions of things that other games do better. Watered down DCC 0-level funnel, watered down DCC roll to cast, watered down spell mishaps, watered down carousing table, watered down loot tables, watered down 5e stuff. It's all present but it has no depth to it. It's certainly useful at the table and probably easy to run, but there's nothing super compelling that makes me really want to dig into it and play multiple sessions, especially when the random results start to repeat.

I mostly disagree. The game serves its purpose as a rules-lite experience for dynamic storytelling. Is it just to my taste? No, I give it a 6/10 and dislike the torch thing too, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been a well-received product for its merits. It certainly has.

Quote from: Spobo on January 31, 2025, 08:32:58 AMyou're asking me to pay 30-60 dollars for what are essentially a collection of houserules anyway, plus some nice art.

... You mean like every single non-Dungeons and Dragons product ever?

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 31, 2025, 09:56:20 AMNone of that is illegal, but let's not pretend this game was successful on its merits: it was a big success because of marketing hype and a female author.

Hard disagree. It's a fine game, and a fine-looking game, created by and promoted on behalf of a decent, well-humored woman. No matter how many times you undersell it, it's still not Kelsey's fault your favorite indie game didn't do as well.

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 31, 2025, 02:20:00 PMNo matter how many times you undersell it, it's still not Kelsey's fault your favorite indie game didn't do as well.

This kind of motivation-projection completely undercuts any kind of persuasiveness you might have been hoping to achieve.  All argument relies at least partially on good faith, and that's as bad faith an argument as anyone could make.  The sales of any other game don't affect the quality, playability, or fun of Shadowdark, nor does Shadowdark theirs.  Argue based on that.

Also, this thread reminds me that I mentioned on another that I would do a post-mortem on my group's experience with Shadowdark.  We're about 2 months in.  Might give a "preliminary" take now, then a more complete report when we're done...

Greetings!

Yeah, Geesus. I have argued Shadowdark's merits and virtues since the beginning. There are a minority of teeth-gnashing haters, but to my assessment, their arguments are weak, and always have been. The *ONLY* reasonable take I've seen for someone not loving Shadowdark is that they have already invested in OSE, and are not interested in changing to a new rule set. Ok.

By every criteria cherished by the OSR, Shadowdark has in full effect. The rationale for the hate has always to me come across as small-dick energy. Bitter, resentful, gagging with spite and jealousy that Shadowdark has been hugely successsful, while their pet game gets fucked in the ass. Whaah. That's the way the market goes. It's also neat to know that Kelsey continues to be hugely successful--she has sold out of current stock of Shadowdark at least once, and more orders always coming in for more. Kelsey is an absolute success.

Unchained & Unscripted, a YouTube channel, continues to celebrate and promote the game he runs of Shadowdark, and has done so for many conventions now, with great success. Myself, and several friends have all embraced Shadowdark, also with great success. I have seen on other websites, folks talking about solo games, new games--and Shadowdark is very often and enthusiastically mentioned and promoted. Shadowdark doesn't just have some clique of "YouTube Influencers" that enjoy the game, but a great many old school gamers as well as more recent 5E gamer converts.

Kelsey has been gaming for a very long time--most of her life. She has and continues to attend *numerous* game conventions, every year. She played old school D&D, and has been successful creating modules for 5E D&D for a solid number of years before she created Shadowdark. Kelsey loves D&D, game conventions, and gamers. She has been very friendly, gracious, and a class-act with everyone that has met her. I have spoken with her directly, and she has been absolutely fun, very sweet, and a total gaming professional. Kelsey has done verything RIGHT with Shadowdark, and worked hard to contribute to gaming, and to celebrate old school D&D. You would think all of that would mean something to the whining ingrates that seethe and chitter all the time, gnashing their teeth in unending bitterness. Oh well. As I mentioned previously, there's every good reason most anyone in the hobby should embrace and enjoy Shadowdark. If it is not to your preference, in good grace, fine. The pettiness, the bitter, seething hatred though really is just sad and pathetic.

How about instead of choking on your own bitter resentment and jealousy, how about celebrate Shadowdark's success? How about encouraging Kelsey, and anyone to embrace Shadowdark as a worthy and fun game, and an excellent OSR D&D contribution? How about being positive and encouraging?

It's also interesting to note that Kelsey has never shit on anyone, or belittled them, or disparaged anyone. Nor has she become sucked into bashing and crying about other games that she doesn't like, or those games that have been more successful than Shadowdark. She has just been a gracious, kind, and sweet person. A good game designer with a passion and joy for old school D&D and gaming in general.

Go and BUY a basic Shadowdark book, and get Kelsey's extra supplements. They are all great! I have been running Shadowdark in my own campaign for awhile now. It's a great system, simple, quick, brutal. Very easy to modify and use. A JOY to DM, as well as PLAY. I also backed Kelsey's Shadowdark Kickstarter, and got everything at the Legend level or whatever the high level was, so I got everything, including a second copy of the rulebook done up in dragonskin or something. *Laughing*

There now. I'm enjoying a fine cigar, and some fresh brewed coffee. I hope you will all enjoy Shadowdark. It is an excellent game, and great fun to play and to DM.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Sure. Shadowdark is a mediocre Game for anyone familiar with the OSR scene and it was vastly over hyped for being mediocre. Like, it's basically a homebrew of all the bits of OSR that most people agree on being good and put into a nice, easy to read package and easy to play.

But for someone not familiar with the OSR and doesn't have a set of rules tailored to their liking. It's perfect for them. It's pretty, it has done most of the hard work of finding what most people will find agreeable and it offers the core experience of what OSR is all about. Is it still over hyped? Surely. But when you are knee deep in marketing, its easy to market a product.

Shadowdark was the perfect storm of a game. It first and far most is a game. It came out during the end times of 5e. And to top it off it has great presentation and puts a bunch of good rules together that work well together.

Sure, I agree with Pundit that Kelesy should have credited the other games she lifted rules from, simply because she knows very well the audience she was marketing too and what an impact such a thing would have ment to the wider OSR space. As it was honestly gross seeing the uninformed laud her as some sort of saint of game deisgn... for reusing old ideas. Especially when she was marketing to said uninformed rather then what most in the OSR do which is market to each other.

Still. Weird people have such a hate boner for Shadowdark. Like, it's not a bad system and someone successfully marketing a product that isn't bad should be an achievement. Especially when that someone is introducing people to the "bigger" hobby outside of D&D. Like, this is no GG, it's just plain ol good marketing done by a good team. Simple as.

Quote from: Kahoona on February 01, 2025, 05:04:18 AMShadowdark was the perfect storm of a game. It first and far most is a game. It came out during the end times of 5e. And to top it off it has great presentation and puts a bunch of good rules together that work well together.

Sure, I agree with Pundit that Kelesy should have credited the other games she lifted rules from, simply because she knows very well the audience she was marketing too and what an impact such a thing would have ment to the wider OSR space. As it was honestly gross seeing the uninformed laud her as some sort of saint of game deisgn... for reusing old ideas. Especially when she was marketing to said uninformed rather then what most in the OSR do which is market to each other.

Still. Weird people have such a hate boner for Shadowdark. Like, it's not a bad system and someone successfully marketing a product that isn't bad should be an achievement. Especially when that someone is introducing people to the "bigger" hobby outside of D&D. Like, this is no GG, it's just plain ol good marketing done by a good team. Simple as.

The truest post in this entire thread IMO.  If you're already huge into OSR then this game wasn't specifically made for you... but you can benefit from it because it's bringing lots more people into the dank dungeon that is the subniche of the OSR and some of those folks will invariably fork into whatever subflavor you actually prefer.   I'm not into the OSR personally as it currently stands per se (though I don't dislike it either.. I'm simply neutral) but I appreciate some of the ideas in Shadowdark (at least from the free quickstart as I didn't back/buy it) regardless of the original source but was also impressed from a production standpoint by the whole package/presentation. 

I have no idea if she didn't explicitly credit other games as inspirations (NOT the same thing as theft) then I think that was poor form and probably the only legitimate criticism I've seen suggested in this thread.  I can't confirm whether or not or to what degree she did or didn't as, again, I don't have the final released book though but I'd have preferred if she did that.