Quote4. Polytheism is absolutely compatible with atheism - perhaps not in every variant of polytheism, but there are atheist Hindus and there are polytheist Hindus. Just as there were atheist Hellenists and polytheist Hellenists, and they live together (and lived together in the case of the Hellenists) without any friction. If you think they're incompatible, you don't understand pagan beliefs.

There are also monotheistic Hindu and it's not forced by islam. Hinduism is just well not really a religion but great mesh of various sects, philosophies, interpretations linked by common cultural heritage. Basically take any metaphysical theory - monotheism, politheism, atheism, deism, pantheism, pandeism - there are hinduists for that. I even heard that philosophically speaking there will be more monotheists than polytheists (no wonder considering whole concept of Brahman for instance). Diversity is much greater than between Abrahamic religions, and if treated simmilarily as Western religions you'd probably have to divide H. into like 200 separate religions - but well neither Westerners get it, nor Hindu care as their perspective and divisions are quite different.

QuoteSikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, Hindus - they can all live in close proximity to each other without any problems. Muslims can't live in close proximity with other - but different - Muslims without having conflict. And Christianity used to be like that. It's not that 'all religions are like that', it's specifically Abrahamic religions that are like that. Judaism used to be like that, Christianity used to be like that, and Islam still is like that.

That's gross overestimation. Muslims historically speaking commonly lived among other religions, and there were different frictions as always are. But general stance when Muslim dominated, were higher taxes for non-Muslims, so hardly drastic measure. Malaysians seems to live quite peacefully generally speaking. (And of course it's easily noted that Muslim umma was quite warlike but for most time those were not Shia-Sunni wars, but wars between various groups of same sect for... political power.)
On the other hand Hindu bigotry in India is rising with nationalist party in power and attacks against Abrahamic religions in certain states.
And historically those religions that do not fall into wide umbrella of Hinduism - that is buddhism, sikhism and jainism were persecuted by majority. And then of course buddhists persecuted others when they get to power.

Now of course dharmic religions are less spread overall, but they were totally willing to persecute in history. I'd say they are generally closer to Abrahamic religions than paganism, because they embrace higher philosophies and universalism. And it's universalism that breed conflict. Old school pagans did not cared about foreign gods. It goes totally different when you believe your religion is universal.

QuoteHow the fuck can someone be an "atheist polytheist"? Unless you're doing some weird thing where you're conflating the religion and the culture around it, which still doesn't make any sense.

There is no The God - as absolute Being constituting whole reality. However there are "gods", very powerful beings that need to be appease, however they are not philosophically theos.
Quite foreign to European Christian vision, but theoretically possible.

QuoteHow many examples do you think you can bring up of that? You know how easy it will for me to find 10 examples for every one you provide with Abrahamic religions. With non-Abrahamic religions it can be said to be an isolated incident. With Abrahamic religions it's not isolated.

Neither it was with dharmic religions. There were constant turmoil in India and Indochina about them.
Later Abrahamics moved to region and turmoil doubled - and it was quite often dharmics who were aggresive in this dealing.

China will be certain difference (but also to certain point) because when it evolved to buerocratic empire, the religions were controled to be not troublesome, all of them generally. That's the secret of co-existence of religions there - basically fascism

Quote from: Omega on April 01, 2022, 09:46:23 PM
Hence why I say we just do not have enough information to say either way. Read it one way and he did it deliberately. Read it the other and he did it as a gag.

Problem is that if it is a gag. Its a rather tasteless one unless the original book was somehow far different in tone.
Problem is that if it is serious then its a rather bland example unless the original was somehow different in tone.

I keep coming back to the first point as a problem for me that Barker was seriously considering sending it off to neo-nazis at all. And then DID! It just feels so completely crack-headed a stunt to pull for some sort of joke. And that he sat on the publication board at all. If he was researching then surely he did not need to be on the board to do that? Unless I am missing some quirk of academia access?

Another thing that bugs me is the timeline for all this. The publisher did not exist till the early 2000s. When did Barker actually write the book and how long was he submitting it to various publishers good and bad?

But if he was a neo-nazi then why was he concerned about sending the book to a Jewish publisher he knew? Why not fuck with them and submit it?

Thus why I say if you follow one path it leads to Barker being up to no good. And if you follow the other its some sort of joke. And there is information that contradicts one or the other or both. And the more you dig the stranger it gets. And not in a good way. Every time I did deeper the pendulum swings anew.

Mr Barker. Would you please stop pushing the damn pendulum back to "GUILTY"?

What are you talking about? The National Alliance has been around since the 70s, it's the same outfit that published The Turner Diaries (not surprising, since it was led by the guy who wrote that book) and Serpent's Walk was published in 1991. Where are you getting this weird  and wrong information about this?

Quote from: Blankman on April 02, 2022, 01:49:48 AM
What are you talking about? The National Alliance has been around since the 70s, it's the same outfit that published The Turner Diaries (not surprising, since it was led by the guy who wrote that book) and Serpent's Walk was published in 1991. Where are you getting this weird  and wrong information about this?

er? The publisher is National Vanguard? Not Alliance?
Aaaand... You may be right here. WTF?
I looked up Vanguard and it said it was funded in the 2000s. But the book says it was published in 91. I really should have remembered that. (but am dealing with a family emergency on the side). The one I looked up stated it was founded in 2005, and is a publishing house and is a supremacist group.

QuoteFormed in 2005 by longtime activist Kevin Strom, National Vanguard was a breakaway group from the neo-Nazi National Alliance.

Guess Vanguard existed prior and only became a fully separate entity later?

Well aside from the timeline the other points still stand.

Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2022, 04:23:36 AM

Quote from: Blankman on April 02, 2022, 01:49:48 AM
What are you talking about? The National Alliance has been around since the 70s, it's the same outfit that published The Turner Diaries (not surprising, since it was led by the guy who wrote that book) and Serpent's Walk was published in 1991. Where are you getting this weird  and wrong information about this?

er? The publisher is National Vanguard? Not Alliance?
Aaaand... You may be right here. WTF?
I looked up Vanguard and it said it was funded in the 2000s. But the book says it was published in 91. I really should have remembered that. (but am dealing with a family emergency on the side). The one I looked up stated it was founded in 2005, and is a publishing house and is a supremacist group.

QuoteFormed in 2005 by longtime activist Kevin Strom, National Vanguard was a breakaway group from the neo-Nazi National Alliance.

Guess Vanguard existed prior and only became a fully separate entity later?

Well aside from the timeline the other points still stand.

As you can see, Vanguard was a breakaway group from National Alliance, formed after a rift in the movement (similar to how communist groups tend to splinter) and all I can see is that National Alliance was the publisher.

And no, the other points don't stand. I haven't seen anything concrete about anything in your posts. Where have you seen anything hinting at it being some sort of gag? That's nowhere in the letter you've referred to. Is any of this based on anything solid, or is it just baseless speculation that could be thrown up around anything ever?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2022, 08:16:46 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 31, 2022, 07:55:44 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2022, 02:36:01 AM

Quote from: Blankman on March 30, 2022, 07:45:08 AM

Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM
1. I see, I was wrong about when he had his PhD. That doesn't change anything significantly - he was still university educated when he converted to Islam, which means he knew what he was converting to.

No, it changes rather a lot if you're not even a grad student vs if you have a PhD.

Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM2. You're simply wrong about this. It is tolerated. Louis Farrakhan is only criticised by a small portion of the right wing, his open hatred of Jews is tolerated. Linda Sarsour and Rasmea Odeh - the latter who hated Jews so much she killed them - was openly welcomed in the Women's March. You're unaware of it being tolerated because it is tolerated so much the left simply doesn't talk about it.

If it was tolerated, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And again, how you perceive things to be now (which isn't connected to roleplaying at all so I'll leave it there) is irrelevant to what was going on in 1951 when Barker converted. The Women's march happened years after Barker had died, and more than half a century after he converted to Islam. He didn't plan his conversion to Islam based on what some people were going to do more than 60 years into the future. You also stated that as a Muslim, he wouldn't need to hide his antisemitism, yet he did hide it. If he hadn't, the information in this thread wouldn't have been surprising to anyone.

Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM3. It's the Tekumel foundation that's being condemned for keeping it hidden more than Barker himself - obviously there isn't much point in condemning someone who's already dead.

No, Barker is absolutely being excoriated, but he is, as you say, dead. People don't get excoriated for hiding the bad beliefs of someone if whoever held the beliefs wouldn't get slammed for holding them.

Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM4. Polytheism is absolutely compatible with atheism - perhaps not in every variant of polytheism, but there are atheist Hindus and there are polytheist Hindus. Just as there were atheist Hellenists and polytheist Hellenists, and they live together (and lived together in the case of the Hellenists) without any friction. If you think they're incompatible, you don't understand pagan beliefs.

Atheism is the belief that no gods exist. Polytheism is the belief in many gods. You cannot be an atheist polytheist. Hinduism isn't really a religion but a term for a set of cultural beliefs shared by several different religions, but you can't actually be an adherent of a Polytheistic religion without believing in the existence of gods. You can be a spiritualist, and you can deny the existence of a creator god and believe the gods came in after the world was made, but if you don't believe in any gods, you're not a polytheist.

Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AMSikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, Hindus - they can all live in close proximity to each other without any problems. Muslims can't live in close proximity with other - but different - Muslims without having conflict. And Christianity used to be like that. It's not that 'all religions are like that', it's specifically Abrahamic religions that are like that. Judaism used to be like that, Christianity used to be like that, and Islam still is like that.

Huh, and I could have sworn that there was Sikh sectarian violence in India (see the Sikh-Nirankari clash) and a Sikh separatist movement in India that culminated in Operation Blue Star in the 1980s when Indira Gandhi ordered the army to attack the holiest Sikh site, the Golden Temple. Then Gandhi was assassinated by her Sikh bodyguards in revenge for this, after which followed riots and violence directed specifically against Sikhs. Huh, almost looks like religious tensions from here, but clearly those are impossible if an Abrahamic religion isn't involved.

Riddle me this: Why are the charges of nazi anti-semite and not of muslim anti-semite?

Because he was writing for a Neo-Nazi anti-semitic publisher and was a board member of a neo-Nazi anti-semitic holocaust denial magazine.
And not, as far as we know, writing for an anti-semitic muslim publisher.

So, him being a muslim had nothing to do with it.

Maybe or maybe not. But the fact remains he's being called a neo-nazi because he hung out with, got published by, and helped manage the magazine of Neo-Nazis. I have no idea what he did at the mosque, if indeed he even went to a mosque.

Quote from: Omega on April 01, 2022, 12:48:19 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 31, 2022, 07:55:44 PM



and was a board member of a neo-Nazi anti-semitic holocaust denial magazine.

2: Which, as has been pointed out by others, could be for reasons other than support. Research, watchdog, etc. But that works only if Barker intended the book as some sort of jab at neo-nazis.

FOR 12 YEARS?

Let me put it this way: if someone was on the board of directors of NAMBLA for a dozen years, and when confronted about it claimed "oh it's not because I like man-boy love, it's because I was keeping an eye on them!" would you believe him?


You're just being a fucking buffoon at this point. 

Occupy Tekumel is pure horseshit.  It's saying "Let's keep making money off this guy's work while condemning him."

Rob Conley didn't "Occupy The Wilderlands".  He flushed decades worth of work and investment along with Bledsaw's world and made his own setting.  He took it right in the shorts economically for his beliefs, something the Tekumel Foundation and Jeff Dee apparently won't do.  I am Jack's total lack of surprise.

Quote from: crkrueger on April 02, 2022, 03:35:31 PM
Occupy Tekumel is pure horseshit.  It's saying "Let's keep making money off this guy's work while condemning him."

Rob Conley didn't "Occupy The Wilderlands".  He flushed decades worth of work and investment along with Bledsaw's world and made his own setting.  He took it right in the shorts economically for his beliefs, something the Tekumel Foundation and Jeff Dee apparently won't do.  I am Jack's total lack of surprise.

Got to say, I get the sentiment of the "Occupy Tekumel" guys. A campaign is the DM's, not the creator's. For example, I do think Marion Zimmer Bradley was guilty of what her victims accused her - but I'm not willing to give up on my "Thieves' World" game. She doesn't sit at my gaming table. My players do.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 02, 2022, 01:38:43 PM

Quote from: Omega on April 01, 2022, 12:48:19 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 31, 2022, 07:55:44 PM



and was a board member of a neo-Nazi anti-semitic holocaust denial magazine.

2: Which, as has been pointed out by others, could be for reasons other than support. Research, watchdog, etc. But that works only if Barker intended the book as some sort of jab at neo-nazis.

FOR 12 YEARS?

Let me put it this way: if someone was on the board of directors of NAMBLA for a dozen years, and when confronted about it claimed "oh it's not because I like man-boy love, it's because I was keeping an eye on them!" would you believe him?


You're just being a fucking buffoon at this point.

Stop looking in the mirror Pundit.

I said. But that works only if Barker intended the book as some sort of jab at neo-nazis.

The longer he was on the board the less likely that is.

But thanks for again doing what the SJWs do so well.

Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2022, 06:49:31 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 02, 2022, 01:38:43 PM

Quote from: Omega on April 01, 2022, 12:48:19 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 31, 2022, 07:55:44 PM



and was a board member of a neo-Nazi anti-semitic holocaust denial magazine.

2: Which, as has been pointed out by others, could be for reasons other than support. Research, watchdog, etc. But that works only if Barker intended the book as some sort of jab at neo-nazis.

FOR 12 YEARS?

Let me put it this way: if someone was on the board of directors of NAMBLA for a dozen years, and when confronted about it claimed "oh it's not because I like man-boy love, it's because I was keeping an eye on them!" would you believe him?


You're just being a fucking buffoon at this point.

Stop looking in the mirror Pundit.

I said. But that works only if Barker intended the book as some sort of jab at neo-nazis.

The longer he was on the board the less likely that is.

But thanks for again doing what the SJWs do so well.

Your post is a perfect example of why the SJWs love this thread.

I do have to give Barker props for not murdering anyone or burning a church down. 

Quote from: Rafael on April 02, 2022, 04:10:54 PM

Quote from: crkrueger on April 02, 2022, 03:35:31 PM
Occupy Tekumel is pure horseshit.  It's saying "Let's keep making money off this guy's work while condemning him."

Rob Conley didn't "Occupy The Wilderlands".  He flushed decades worth of work and investment along with Bledsaw's world and made his own setting.  He took it right in the shorts economically for his beliefs, something the Tekumel Foundation and Jeff Dee apparently won't do.  I am Jack's total lack of surprise.

Got to say, I get the sentiment of the "Occupy Tekumel" guys. A campaign is the DM's, not the creator's. For example, I do think Marion Zimmer Bradley was guilty of what her victims accused her - but I'm not willing to give up on my "Thieves' World" game. She doesn't sit at my gaming table. My players do.

Problem is the intent was never "lets just play Tekumel".

Its been an effort to gain control over Tekumel. Or for the SJWs, destroy it. That Barker put all the tools needed into their hands is just an added bonus. That he was a neo-nazi is not even an afterthought. They were hounding the game long before any of this was revealed.

Quote from: DocJones on April 02, 2022, 08:54:09 PM
I do have to give Barker props for not murdering anyone or burning a church down. 

Considering some of the accusations tossed around. You'd think he did.

Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2022, 08:58:54 PM

Quote from: Rafael on April 02, 2022, 04:10:54 PM

Quote from: crkrueger on April 02, 2022, 03:35:31 PM
Occupy Tekumel is pure horseshit.  It's saying "Let's keep making money off this guy's work while condemning him."

Rob Conley didn't "Occupy The Wilderlands".  He flushed decades worth of work and investment along with Bledsaw's world and made his own setting.  He took it right in the shorts economically for his beliefs, something the Tekumel Foundation and Jeff Dee apparently won't do.  I am Jack's total lack of surprise.

Got to say, I get the sentiment of the "Occupy Tekumel" guys. A campaign is the DM's, not the creator's. For example, I do think Marion Zimmer Bradley was guilty of what her victims accused her - but I'm not willing to give up on my "Thieves' World" game. She doesn't sit at my gaming table. My players do.

Problem is the intent was never "lets just play Tekumel".

Its been an effort to gain control over Tekumel. Or for the SJWs, destroy it. That Barker put all the tools needed into their hands is just an added bonus. That he was a neo-nazi is not even an afterthought. They were hounding the game long before any of this was revealed.

Not wrong, and Jeff Dee is already going on about how folks are attempting to leverage this incident to take control of the franchise away from them. Though I can't imagine who would want their name associated with this hot potato at this point.

Quote from: Blankman on March 31, 2022, 02:09:04 PM


... ok, go to a college campus and do a survey of how many people have actually read the Koran. Shit, do a survey on how many have read the Bible (especially the parts in the Old Testament with really heinous and hateful stuff in it).

Non-Muslims not having read the Quran is irrelevant. What's relevant is that Barker read the Quran and then converted. He knew what was in it and thought it was acceptable.

Quote
I haven't seen this not being discussed anywhere anyone talks about rpgs online. You think this discussion is being silenced? What the hell are you talking about? How delusional are you?

Link to one other place that is talking about Islam's hatred towards Jews and Barker being Muslim being relevant to his hatred of Jews.

Quote
The Women's March is again something that happened in the past few years, what does it have to do with the past millenium, or even 70 years ago? Before modern Israel was a state, there was this thing called the holocaust, and before that there were all kinds of pogroms against Jews, off an on for hundreds of years. You're completely unhinged here.

Yes, there has always been attacks on Jews, and they have been tolerated and encouraged. Since 1945 they have still been tolerated and encouraged, but only when done by Muslims.

Quote
Your status in the community is completely different to whether or not you're a believer. No one cares if you're Christian or not in Sweden, that doesn't mean there are atheist Christians, it just means no one gives a shit.

You're looking at this from the invalid Christian perspective that is being imposed on Hindus, not from the perspective of Hindus themselves.

Quote
I don't live in India, so it will be harder for me just on that score, but yes, it will be easier to dig up examples of religious intolerance when it involves either of the two biggest religions on the planet, that's only natural. There's over 2 billion Christians, there's close to 2 billion Muslims, there's 26 million Sikhs. That's two orders of magnitude.

Muslim violence per capita is 20 times higher than all other religions. If you want to make the orders of magnitude argument, you're still not going to win.