Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:

Was Barker a nazi?

Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?

Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.

Ok, I'm confused.  Then what should go on the red list?

We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.

Quote from: dkabq on March 28, 2022, 09:19:33 AMGiven that Tekumel material is still available through DTRPG, I don't see the "brand" as having no value.

Licensing the brand from now on will be a disaster, though. And if the case could be made that the TF (or other people) willfully withheld the information from their business partners, for all the reasons imaginable, could that not theoretically constitute what English-speakers call "tort of deceit"?

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:36:01 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:

Was Barker a nazi?

Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?

Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.

Ok, I'm confused.  Then what should go on the red list?

We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.

And they are... (a foundation that publishes the back catalog of books, owns the IP of Tekumel,  publishes fan works related to the setting, what?)?  What relationship do they have to the RPG?

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:50:04 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:36:01 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:

Was Barker a nazi?

Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?

Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.

Ok, I'm confused.  Then what should go on the red list?

We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.

And they are... (a foundation that publishes the back catalog of books, owns the IP of Tekumel,  publishes fan works related to the setting, what?)?  What relationship do they have to the RPG?

You just answered your own question. They control the Tekumel IP.

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:36:01 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:

Was Barker a nazi?

Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?

Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.

Ok, I'm confused.  Then what should go on the red list?

We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.

Because putting the people who control/publish the IP on the red list doesn't mean the IP is in the red list....

It just means don't buy from these people because they are bad people...

Oh, the mental gimnastics.

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:03:07 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:50:04 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:36:01 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:

Was Barker a nazi?

Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?

Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.

Ok, I'm confused.  Then what should go on the red list?

We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.

And they are... (a foundation that publishes the back catalog of books, owns the IP of Tekumel,  publishes fan works related to the setting, what?)?  What relationship do they have to the RPG?

You just answered your own question. They control the Tekumel IP.

Actually, those were questions, not statements.  I had no idea which were correct.  So, the Tekumel Foundation "controls" the IP.  What does that mean?  Do they publish works themselves, license out the IP, approve fan works, create new material?  I'm just trying to understand exactly what products are being redlisted by redlisting the foundation.  If the foundation just licenses the IP, then how would relisting them do anything (unless we are going to redlist anything they license, which is the whole setting of Tekumel, which you said we weren't redlisting above)?  And if they do publish books, I'm just curious as to what part of the setting is still available.  For example, if I'm new to Tekumel (which I am.  Heard of it back in the day but never played it) and want to get started, can I purchase the setting books necessary to have a solid chance to run it without buying anything off the redlist?

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 05:25:21 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:03:07 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:50:04 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:36:01 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:

Was Barker a nazi?

Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?

Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.

Ok, I'm confused.  Then what should go on the red list?

We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.

And they are... (a foundation that publishes the back catalog of books, owns the IP of Tekumel,  publishes fan works related to the setting, what?)?  What relationship do they have to the RPG?

You just answered your own question. They control the Tekumel IP.

Actually, those were questions, not statements.  I had no idea which were correct.  So, the Tekumel Foundation "controls" the IP.  What does that mean?  Do they publish works themselves, license out the IP, approve fan works, create new material?  I'm just trying to understand exactly what products are being redlisted by redlisting the foundation.  If the foundation just licenses the IP, then how would relisting them do anything (unless we are going to redlist anything they license, which is the whole setting of Tekumel, which you said we weren't redlisting above)?  And if they do publish books, I'm just curious as to what part of the setting is still available.  For example, if I'm new to Tekumel (which I am.  Heard of it back in the day but never played it) and want to get started, can I purchase the setting books necessary to have a solid chance to run it without buying anything off the redlist?

They're the literary executor, i.e. they're granting the licenses on anything related to Tekumel. You'll have to ask someone else for the specifics in how they handle that, but I imagine they're making money on any new books related to Tekumel. If you want to avoid giving them money, you'll probably have to look at the second hand market.

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 05:56:11 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 05:25:21 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:03:07 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:50:04 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:36:01 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:

Was Barker a nazi?

Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?

Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.

Ok, I'm confused.  Then what should go on the red list?

We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.

And they are... (a foundation that publishes the back catalog of books, owns the IP of Tekumel,  publishes fan works related to the setting, what?)?  What relationship do they have to the RPG?

You just answered your own question. They control the Tekumel IP.

Actually, those were questions, not statements.  I had no idea which were correct.  So, the Tekumel Foundation "controls" the IP.  What does that mean?  Do they publish works themselves, license out the IP, approve fan works, create new material?  I'm just trying to understand exactly what products are being redlisted by redlisting the foundation.  If the foundation just licenses the IP, then how would relisting them do anything (unless we are going to redlist anything they license, which is the whole setting of Tekumel, which you said we weren't redlisting above)?  And if they do publish books, I'm just curious as to what part of the setting is still available.  For example, if I'm new to Tekumel (which I am.  Heard of it back in the day but never played it) and want to get started, can I purchase the setting books necessary to have a solid chance to run it without buying anything off the redlist?

They're the literary executor, i.e. they're granting the licenses on anything related to Tekumel. You'll have to ask someone else for the specifics in how they handle that, but I imagine they're making money on any new books related to Tekumel. If you want to avoid giving them money, you'll probably have to look at the second hand market.

So, basically, if I don't want to buy used/secondhand books (or they aren't available), and I want to also avoid buying from companies on the redlist, I really can't play in Tekumel (due to not being able to get setting materials).  So, by redlisting the foundation, the setting is effectively redlisted...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 09:59:43 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 05:56:11 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 05:25:21 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:03:07 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:50:04 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:36:01 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:

Was Barker a nazi?

Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?

Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.

Ok, I'm confused.  Then what should go on the red list?

We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.

And they are... (a foundation that publishes the back catalog of books, owns the IP of Tekumel,  publishes fan works related to the setting, what?)?  What relationship do they have to the RPG?

You just answered your own question. They control the Tekumel IP.

Actually, those were questions, not statements.  I had no idea which were correct.  So, the Tekumel Foundation "controls" the IP.  What does that mean?  Do they publish works themselves, license out the IP, approve fan works, create new material?  I'm just trying to understand exactly what products are being redlisted by redlisting the foundation.  If the foundation just licenses the IP, then how would relisting them do anything (unless we are going to redlist anything they license, which is the whole setting of Tekumel, which you said we weren't redlisting above)?  And if they do publish books, I'm just curious as to what part of the setting is still available.  For example, if I'm new to Tekumel (which I am.  Heard of it back in the day but never played it) and want to get started, can I purchase the setting books necessary to have a solid chance to run it without buying anything off the redlist?

They're the literary executor, i.e. they're granting the licenses on anything related to Tekumel. You'll have to ask someone else for the specifics in how they handle that, but I imagine they're making money on any new books related to Tekumel. If you want to avoid giving them money, you'll probably have to look at the second hand market.

So, basically, if I don't want to buy used/secondhand books (or they aren't available), and I want to also avoid buying from companies on the redlist, I really can't play in Tekumel (due to not being able to get setting materials).  So, by redlisting the foundation, the setting is effectively redlisted...

Exactly my point. And exactly the goal of Cocksuck Soyarmy.

I'm not too sure how that would be the "plan" of the SJWs. For starters, an awful lot of them seem to love Tekumel. Jeff Dee is an SJW and published a Tekumel book, and he's been having fits all over the internet trying to make it super clear he had no idea about Barker's other writings.

Second, how exactly is that a "plan"? Did they go back in a time machine and convince Barker to publish an SS fanboy novel with an infamous neo-nazi publishing house and serve on the board of the most notorious American holocaust-denial magazine?

Now, of course, some of them are going to happily try to somehow use this to throw shade on the whole OSR, or the entire TTRPG hobby, as though everyone knew all along or something, or there hasn't been large scale shock, anger and disappointment at discovering this now. That's a different thing. I don't think their goal is to eliminate Tekumel, and certainly not a pre-meditated one somehow.

The SJWs are always opportunists, but this isn't their fault or their doing, it's Barker's (and subsequently, the Tekumel Foundation for the cover-up).

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 09:59:43 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 05:56:11 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 05:25:21 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:03:07 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:50:04 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:36:01 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:

Was Barker a nazi?

Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?

Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.

Ok, I'm confused.  Then what should go on the red list?

We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.

And they are... (a foundation that publishes the back catalog of books, owns the IP of Tekumel,  publishes fan works related to the setting, what?)?  What relationship do they have to the RPG?

You just answered your own question. They control the Tekumel IP.

Actually, those were questions, not statements.  I had no idea which were correct.  So, the Tekumel Foundation "controls" the IP.  What does that mean?  Do they publish works themselves, license out the IP, approve fan works, create new material?  I'm just trying to understand exactly what products are being redlisted by redlisting the foundation.  If the foundation just licenses the IP, then how would relisting them do anything (unless we are going to redlist anything they license, which is the whole setting of Tekumel, which you said we weren't redlisting above)?  And if they do publish books, I'm just curious as to what part of the setting is still available.  For example, if I'm new to Tekumel (which I am.  Heard of it back in the day but never played it) and want to get started, can I purchase the setting books necessary to have a solid chance to run it without buying anything off the redlist?

They're the literary executor, i.e. they're granting the licenses on anything related to Tekumel. You'll have to ask someone else for the specifics in how they handle that, but I imagine they're making money on any new books related to Tekumel. If you want to avoid giving them money, you'll probably have to look at the second hand market.

So, basically, if I don't want to buy used/secondhand books (or they aren't available), and I want to also avoid buying from companies on the redlist, I really can't play in Tekumel (due to not being able to get setting materials).  So, by redlisting the foundation, the setting is effectively redlisted...

Is this what you were trying to build up to? The red list is for publishers, most of whom exclusive rights to some IP. This is an obvious tautology that was blindingly obvious from the start, not this logical trap you're trying to pretend it is.

It still doesn't involve putting Tekumel on the red list, or even Barker, because that's my point. That isn't the purpose of the red list. It's not about canceling abstract concepts like IPs, or people. It's about warning potential consumers of publishers who want your money but who have acted against their own fanbases in exclusionary ways.

And no, you can still play Tekumel all you like. It's your choice, nobody's forcing you to do anything. The list is not a mandate, it's a warning. It's mind boggling to me how many people have jumped in to express their outrage about an organization, who hid the fact that their IP was created by someone who wrote a pro-Nazi book, being put on a list that effectively just says hey you might not want to give them money, and gives the reason.

And if you were already a fan, you've probably got all the material you need for many lifetimes of play anyway. And if you weren't, then why jump on the bandwagon now?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 28, 2022, 11:13:34 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 09:59:43 PM

So, basically, if I don't want to buy used/secondhand books (or they aren't available), and I want to also avoid buying from companies on the redlist, I really can't play in Tekumel (due to not being able to get setting materials).  So, by redlisting the foundation, the setting is effectively redlisted...

Exactly my point. And exactly the goal of Cocksuck Soyarmy.

I don't think his goal is to get Tekumel redlisted, his goal is to have an influence on the list. And then he'll see what else he can do. I'm not sure if it will do any good from his perspective, but it does show that he's pretending when he says he's just laughing about the list - it is having an effect.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 29, 2022, 04:52:27 AM
I'm not too sure how that would be the "plan" of the SJWs. For starters, an awful lot of them seem to love Tekumel. Jeff Dee is an SJW and published a Tekumel book, and he's been having fits all over the internet trying to make it super clear he had no idea about Barker's other writings.

Second, how exactly is that a "plan"? Did they go back in a time machine and convince Barker to publish an SS fanboy novel with an infamous neo-nazi publishing house and serve on the board of the most notorious American holocaust-denial magazine?

Now, of course, some of them are going to happily try to somehow use this to throw shade on the whole OSR, or the entire TTRPG hobby, as though everyone knew all along or something, or there hasn't been large scale shock, anger and disappointment at discovering this now. That's a different thing. I don't think their goal is to eliminate Tekumel, and certainly not a pre-meditated one somehow.

The SJWs are always opportunists, but this isn't their fault or their doing, it's Barker's (and subsequently, the Tekumel Foundation for the cover-up).

Oportunistic, exactly...

Their plan doesn't involve time travel of course, nor did it include Tekumel until it became a target for cancelation. Their plan does include destroying western culture tho.

As for the fundation not disclusing Barker's book...

Seriously? Did you forget the climate we all have been living in?

To the SJWs guilt by association is a thing, there's no redemption ever, what do you honestly think they would have done to the fundation?

Maybe before they gained political, social and media power... Now? You better think of a plan to avoid being cancelled.

And they were already a power 10 years ago, don't kid yourself.

Quote from: migo on March 29, 2022, 07:38:39 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 28, 2022, 11:13:34 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 09:59:43 PM

So, basically, if I don't want to buy used/secondhand books (or they aren't available), and I want to also avoid buying from companies on the redlist, I really can't play in Tekumel (due to not being able to get setting materials).  So, by redlisting the foundation, the setting is effectively redlisted...

Exactly my point. And exactly the goal of Cocksuck Soyarmy.

I don't think his goal is to get Tekumel redlisted, his goal is to have an influence on the list. And then he'll see what else he can do. I'm not sure if it will do any good from his perspective, but it does show that he's pretending when he says he's just laughing about the list - it is having an effect.

Same difference.

His goal IS what you say, Tekumel is the means to do so.

Of course it's having an effect, now we are doing to them what they have been doing to everybody for over a decade. With the exception that we're limitinbg ourselves to boycotting their products not trying to have them thrown out of society and dying in abyect poverty in the streets along with all their loved ones (IF they are even capable of loving anyone not themselves).

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 29, 2022, 04:52:27 AM
Did they go back in a time machine and convince Barker to publish an SS fanboy novel with an infamous neo-nazi publishing house and serve on the board of the most notorious American holocaust-denial magazine?

Most are focusing on the Nazi fanfic, but the magazine is the topper for me.
It's like finding out Varg Vikernes wrote Tekumel.