Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:12:57 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:07:42 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:01:58 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:27:52 AM

   That is a very good point.   Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke.  Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.

Oh but they are. Nazis believe exactly the same things about race as the wokists. They just flip which skin colors should be segregated or condemned. Except when it comes to Israel and Jews, where their beliefs match precisely.

  Race, maybe, nationalism, transgender issues, use of violence, etc they have some pretty different beliefs.    They are not the same thing, no more than an alligator and a bear are the same animal.  Both are dangerous, but present different dangers and in different ways.   Two things both being bad do not make them the same thing.  It makes them both bad, calling  two different bad things the same bad thing is folly.

Their views on Race-based Collectivism are one and the same.

  No, they are not.   

Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 01:30:35 PMI skimmed the first dozen pages of the thread, and I can't find the link again. It might have been to an archive.org page. If anyone has the link to Serpent's Walk, please post.

Edit: Found it
https://archive.org/details/CalverhallRandolphO.SerpentsWalk/mode/2up

Thank you for this! I owe you one.

Yeah, that book looks as bad as one would imagine. I've read a few chapters, and the most damning thing is maybe that it's treating the whole topic of the nazis being the good guys in a rather casual manner. Like, no big fuzz about the setting's premise, no "spoilation" elements, no "Heavy Metal" edginess, no irony: Just an old-fashioned, badly written, 70s-style paperback sci-fi novel in which the nazis fight for law and order.

Not going to quote the book here, but around page 40, the story gets to what Barker might have considered the core of the tale: The usual '70s whitey hero - though and able, but goal or aim, starts being tutored by "the good guys" - and being educated in "real history", etc. wading through all the usual nazi talking points to the point to which the novel becomes the usual nazi textbook. And, of course, t he protagonist becomes a Memetic Badass through the process, and King of the World - just as if this book had been stuck in some 1965 gas station novel.

Mentioning the "70s" thing so often because it seems to be a theme here. This is not a novel for 1991, even if you strip away the nazi shit. It's formulaic, more than it is anything else; you could write a book like that with every possible topic in mind, and you would just have to change the names of the protagonists, and substitute the nazi background with whatever else you liked.

I'm seriously curious as to how bad this novel might still come to be, but - every line I read in there makes me feel like I should wash my hands.

Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 01:36:10 PMThe TF fb post also confirms his involvement with the journal: "We have done our due diligence to ascertain the facts regarding Serpent's Walk and Professor Barker's affiliation with The Journal of Historical Review and we believe this needs to be recognized as part of Professor Barker's past." (bold mine)

Yeah, thanks, too, for pointing that out. ...It's been a long day, I guess.

---

What a pity, this shit.

I'm a lifelong follower of the Midkemia stories and games. - And, of course, I had some great fun reading the actual Tekumel stuff. I don't think I'm going to do that again.

Wait. Now Raymond Feist and Pug and the Riftwar is involved in this?

Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 03:24:55 PM

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
-- The content and the publication history of the novel, and possible changes to the original manuscript that were made by the publisher. Who knows, for all we know, Barker might have believed he was writing a fantasy version of "Springtime For Hitler". Thing is, we don't know until we get a proper look at the material.

Working through the book I get the increasing impression that either A: they did not have an editor, or B: did not notice how Barker was framing things. The Nazis in the book are the most mild, bordering on non-nazi characters you could imagine. They spend more time complaining about the unfair treatment Germany got and trying not to get zipped by the Izzies than they do any actual Nazi-ing. The main focus is their struggle against the very aggressive Israel forces who in the book have become a major world power or darn close. And do not get me wrong here. They do talk about the Jews in the book too. But at times it is almost as if they are talking about two different people. And so far not in a derogatory manner. Weirdest stuff ever for a pro-nazi book. Even the supremacist stuff is fairly in the background or being spouted by the brits and americans so far as I am seeing. But they are creating a white only nation and removing anyone not white from that area. Mostly peacefully and again in the background so far. Mostly.

I think Barker partnered with the publisher because he had an axe to grind with Israel and gave the publisher what they wanted. But got far more of what he wanted. A statement against the Israel/Pakistan war. And to show up Israel in a negative light. If I recall right hostilities or outright war was still ongoing at the time of the writing and did not end till a year or two after its publication.

None of which excuses what he did even if any of my guesses are right.

Thanks for the short review.

Please tell me you didn't buy the book.
I'm not advocating piracy.
I'm just strongly suggesting not buying that book from that publisher.

Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 03:24:55 PM

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
-- The content and the publication history of the novel, and possible changes to the original manuscript that were made by the publisher. Who knows, for all we know, Barker might have believed he was writing a fantasy version of "Springtime For Hitler". Thing is, we don't know until we get a proper look at the material.

Working through the book I get the increasing impression that either A: they did not have an editor, or B: did not notice how Barker was framing things. The Nazis in the book are the most mild, bordering on non-nazi characters you could imagine. They spend more time complaining about the unfair treatment Germany got and trying not to get zipped by the Izzies than they do any actual Nazi-ing. The main focus is their struggle against the very aggressive Israel forces who in the book have become a major world power or darn close. And do not get me wrong here. They do talk about the Jews in the book too. But at times it is almost as if they are talking about two different people. And so far not in a derogatory manner. Weirdest stuff ever for a pro-nazi book. Even the supremacist stuff is fairly in the background or being spouted by the brits and americans so far as I am seeing. But they are creating a white only nation and removing anyone not white from that area. Mostly peacefully and again in the background so far. Mostly.

I think Barker partnered with the publisher because he had an axe to grind with Israel and gave the publisher what they wanted. But got far more of what he wanted. A statement against the Israel/Pakistan war. And to show up Israel in a negative light. If I recall right hostilities or outright war was still ongoing at the time of the writing and did not end till a year or two after its publication.

None of which excuses what he did even if any of my guesses are right.

Sorry, didn't intentionally ignore you - just was really undercafffeinated yesterday. I refuse to spend the time to read the book in its entirety, but what I've read so far matches with your observations.
It reminded me a lot of similar books from other countries in which the writers of the ruling party tried to handwave away (English?) past atrocities like Barker is doing here:
Say, according to Barker, for sure his 21st-century nazis are more removed from WWII crimes and would probably never endanger their intended utopia like their earlier generations. And, of course, (according to Barker) 20th-century-nazis have to be seen within the historical contexts of other "-ists" committing crimes. Horst Wessel is the real nazi, to Barker; Hitler was, too, but probably a bit over-the-top. ...And so on. Standard nazi talking points - reminiscent of some KKK stuff I've read over the years, actually.

The tone of the book is almost that of a modern YA novel - quite probably because that's the intention. The actual plot is not much more "sensational" than, say, the way slavery is treated in Errol Flynn's and Michael Curtiz' "The Charge of the Light Brigade" --- but that's exactly the trap:
Barker's rather mellow nazis, they don't appear to be so bad. This is exemplified by his main character, who bears the name of a classic German writer who wrote a play about racial tensions and intolerance, and appears to struggle with all these issues - before he, of course, comes to find the one true way. Take the names and contexts away and replace them by generic sci-fi, you would probably not find anything unusual there.

I'm pretty convinced now that Barker had a very clear idea of what he was doing; the way the novel is built, the way it gives the reader an initiation into nazi ideology - that's not just a misguided attempt at "Iron Sky, or some writer echoing his zeitgeist a bit too much for modern audiences. This is a nazi writing nazi stuff.


--- In sum, deeply shocking and disheartening.

Quote from: palaeomerus on March 24, 2022, 02:18:32 AM
Wait. Now Raymond Feist and Pug and the Riftwar is involved in this?

Whole 'nother kettle of worms.
The planet on the other side of the Rift was blatantly Tekemel, with the names slightly changed.  There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth over copyright, but AAUI, Feist and Barker worked something out.

"If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."

-Winston Churchill

Quote from: palaeomerus on March 24, 2022, 02:18:32 AM
Wait. Now Raymond Feist and Pug and the Riftwar is involved in this?

The Tsurani side of the Riftwar is massively taken/borrowed/inspired from Tekumel.

Edit: snaked.

Barker discussing Serpent's Walk - https://fabledlands.blogspot.com/2022/03/was-professor-m-r-barker-nazi.html?fbclid=IwAR171n73ncr7ipyBZWOIclVJ-2AlZrQS48a29aPqp3mA377dfO7Pz37FJmc&m=1

"I do have a novel that is unsold and unwanted by anybody. This is what I call my 'Nazi novel'. I did not show it to the Wollheims both because they don't do this sort of book and also because they are Jewish and would be terribly offended -- and they are nice people. I started out to write a 'near-future' thriller: young mercenary is hired to steal cannisters of germ warfare from an American stockpile in the 2040 A.D. period. This is used by a fearful Israeli government and various cronies to destroy the Soviet Union; the Soviets get in a retaliatory strike with germ warfare of their own, however, and take out many US, British, etc. cities. Out in India, where the young mercenary is employed, the descendants of the Nazi SS and other 'refugees' are quietly biding their time, building up economic resources for a come-back. With the presidency and vice-presidency of the United States open after the deaths of their incumbents, the Secretary of State takes over -- an old, reconstructed racist. He invites the Nazi movement to help in running the US. The mercenary hero, who is not a Nazi, is an employee of the Indian chemical company 'front' for the Nazis and gets into the situation as a sort of military expert for them. The Nazis manage to gain access to a giant computer with independent ideas, and they use this machine to rewrite Mein Kampf using every sales pitch and advertising trick in the book. The hero initially loves and marries an Indian girl, but later falls for a Nazi girl who is helping with publicity. The plot thickens, and various major events occur. The book ends with the Nazis taking over much of Western civilisation, and with our hero being chosen 'Second Führer' and riding into the stadium to the 'Sieg Heils!' of the masses.

"The only people I can imagine enjoying this book would be skinheads and Sir Oswald Mosley. It would probably create as much fuss as Rushdie's Satanic Verses, and could not be published under my own name. Both the author and the publisher would become the target of many rude remarks, letter-bombs, hand grenades, and visits from Mossad. I mentioned this book just to show you that I am not completely dead -- yet. Still alive and working. I don't expect you to want to publish it. Nobody will. I cannot even sell it to the Neo-Nazi presses here; they would not accept the idea of an Indian girl marrying the hero."

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:09:22 PMI have actually investigated. My conclusions are based on my own investigation.

So you have uncovered something that isnt just guesswork that points to the foundation being up to no good?

Quote from: Rafael on March 24, 2022, 01:33:23 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 01:30:35 PMI skimmed the first dozen pages of the thread, and I can't find the link again. It might have been to an archive.org page. If anyone has the link to Serpent's Walk, please post.

Edit: Found it
https://archive.org/details/CalverhallRandolphO.SerpentsWalk/mode/2up

Thank you for this! I owe you one.

Yeah, that book looks as bad as one would imagine. I've read a few chapters, and the most damning thing is maybe that it's treating the whole topic of the nazis being the good guys in a rather casual manner. Like, no big fuzz about the setting's premise, no "spoilation" elements, no "Heavy Metal" edginess, no irony: Just an old-fashioned, badly written, 70s-style paperback sci-fi novel in which the nazis fight for law and order.

Not going to quote the book here, but around page 40, the story gets to what Barker might have considered the core of the tale: The usual '70s whitey hero - though and able, but goal or aim, starts being tutored by "the good guys" - and being educated in "real history", etc. wading through all the usual nazi talking points to the point to which the novel becomes the usual nazi textbook. And, of course, t he protagonist becomes a Memetic Badass through the process, and King of the World - just as if this book had been stuck in some 1965 gas station novel.

Mentioning the "70s" thing so often because it seems to be a theme here. This is not a novel for 1991, even if you strip away the nazi shit. It's formulaic, more than it is anything else; you could write a book like that with every possible topic in mind, and you would just have to change the names of the protagonists, and substitute the nazi background with whatever else you liked.

I'm seriously curious as to how bad this novel might still come to be, but - every line I read in there makes me feel like I should wash my hands.

I am going through it from the other direction and seeing similar things. The weird toning down of the Nazi elements before and after that big outburst. After that the book more and more focuses on Israel to the point it nearly eclipses the nazi stuff. Theres a subtle tonal shift Im seeing. Theres also more later in the book of the WWII denial scattered through the rest of the book. It gets old rather fast.

That is interesting on Barkers statement.

So I am guessing at some point, after he married? he got mad about the Israel war with its neighbors (fixed my mistake!) and somehow found a publisher congruent to what he wanted to say. And probably retooled the book to focus more on that?

Unfortunately his statement there is open to being read from too many directions and he at least there gives no insight into why.

But it is exactly the sort of question mark on all this I had a feeling was going to be uncovered.

But the books tone sure as heck changed from "a fearful Israel" to "war mongering Israel". It is then entirely possible that it really did start out as some elabourate thumbing if the nose at Nazis that for reasons as yet unknown, turned dark.

If the foundation knew about the books origins and then both failed to mention that in their statements and vilified Barker, then that paints them in a less than cordial light. Unless they were, or are, worried about the anti-Israel connections.

"the Israel/Pakistan war"

That would be a really weird war, if it had ever happened. India fought Pakistan, Israel fought Egypt and other Arab countries.

Quote from: S'mon on March 24, 2022, 02:51:42 PM
"the Israel/Pakistan war"

That would be a really weird war, if it had ever happened. India fought Pakistan, Israel fought Egypt and other Arab countries.

Yeah. My goof there. What I get for reading late and fast. Palestine is whats mentioned at the end before things take an unusual sci-fi turn.
Think would have been better had I said Israel/Everyone else in the vicinity war.

Does any of this read like a joke? No.

QuoteWe'd have  preferred peaceful . . . and separate . . . and distant . . . co-existence,
but they never got the message. Now we don't care anymore."

"It's too bad " Wrench began.

"Don't waste your pity!" Lessing snapped. "They wouldn't
waste any on you. Sure, it's sad that innocent people have to suffer,
but it can't be helped. That's reality! That's Nature! You can't save
the dodo, the condors, and the other losers in the battle for survival.
Species-extinction happens over and over, like rain in the summer-
time. Forget ethics and morality and 'do-unto-others.' The Izzies
said 'never again!' about the 'Holocaust,' but then they turned
around and did to the Palestinians everything they claimed the
Germans had done to them! They called it 'self-defense': war under
the pretext of peace, oppression in the name of justice and stability!
The Arabs were weak and went under, but we're a different story.
We're going to make it, no matter who gets in our way."