Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:53:44 PM
So, if we're going to Cancell Barker after his death, and the games he wrote that have exactly ZERO nazi shit on them...

Shouldn't we also cancell ANY game based on Lovecraft's mythos regardless of who developed them?

Quote from: tenbones on March 23, 2022, 05:20:38 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:53:44 PM
So, if we're going to Cancell Barker after his death, and the games he wrote that have exactly ZERO nazi shit on them...

Shouldn't we also cancell ANY game based on Lovecraft's mythos regardless of who developed them?

I'm pretty sure that will get you labeled a Cunt for asking. Or a Nazi(sympathizer) if you press too hard.

Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 02:36:25 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 02:11:07 PM
  Why do you make some example of saying neo nazis are a problem, when that is not the subject at all of the list or the intent of the list. It is also not being debated if they are or are not a problem.  I agree they are a problem, just get them their own list. Otherwise, it sure looks like the woke list is being debated and altered by woke people, the enemy of said list.  It is always a bad first step to let an enemy define terms IMO.  I suggest let people who want to label nazis, make their nazi list.  They can in fact call it exactly that and have a green, yellow and a red.

It's not me who defined the list that way -- it's Ocule, and he's the one who originated the list and is maintaining it. I was quoting his description of the Red list. If you want your own list that is only purely about left-vs-right politics, then you're welcome to make your own. Though I think a lot of politics doesn't accurately fall on a single line of left-vs-right.

I gather that for many posters -- they want to use the lists to see which companies they don't want to buy from, and they don't want to buy from *either* neo-nazis or wokists. So for them, the current list is more functional for them.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 23, 2022, 06:33:44 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 02:36:25 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 02:11:07 PM
  Why do you make some example of saying neo nazis are a problem, when that is not the subject at all of the list or the intent of the list. It is also not being debated if they are or are not a problem.  I agree they are a problem, just get them their own list. Otherwise, it sure looks like the woke list is being debated and altered by woke people, the enemy of said list.  It is always a bad first step to let an enemy define terms IMO.  I suggest let people who want to label nazis, make their nazi list.  They can in fact call it exactly that and have a green, yellow and a red.

It's not me who defined the list that way -- it's Ocule, and he's the one who originated the list and is maintaining it. I was quoting his description of the Red list. If you want your own list that is only purely about left-vs-right politics, then you're welcome to make your own. Though I think a lot of politics doesn't accurately fall on a single line of left-vs-right.

I gather that for many posters -- they want to use the lists to see which companies they don't want to buy from, and they don't want to buy from *either* neo-nazis or wokists. So for them, the current list is more functional for them.

Then they can make their own list that caters to their preferences.
Unless the goal here is to infiltrate the woke list and change it to favor a particular "side".
Jeepers, this is all sounding so familiar...

Quote from: Krazz on March 23, 2022, 07:05:30 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 23, 2022, 06:33:44 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 02:36:25 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 02:11:07 PM
  Why do you make some example of saying neo nazis are a problem, when that is not the subject at all of the list or the intent of the list. It is also not being debated if they are or are not a problem.  I agree they are a problem, just get them their own list. Otherwise, it sure looks like the woke list is being debated and altered by woke people, the enemy of said list.  It is always a bad first step to let an enemy define terms IMO.  I suggest let people who want to label nazis, make their nazi list.  They can in fact call it exactly that and have a green, yellow and a red.

It's not me who defined the list that way -- it's Ocule, and he's the one who originated the list and is maintaining it. I was quoting his description of the Red list. If you want your own list that is only purely about left-vs-right politics, then you're welcome to make your own. Though I think a lot of politics doesn't accurately fall on a single line of left-vs-right.

I gather that for many posters -- they want to use the lists to see which companies they don't want to buy from, and they don't want to buy from *either* neo-nazis or wokists. So for them, the current list is more functional for them.

Then they can make their own list that caters to their preferences.
Unless the goal here is to infiltrate the woke list and change it to favor a particular "side".
Jeepers, this is all sounding so familiar...

I don't think the list is being changed to favour one side. To quote the very first post from the "woke list" about the Red category, from back last year:

"Entities who are categorized as Red may have engaged in anti-consumer behavior, deceptive business practices, interfered with other creators or taken a strong political stance or alienated large portions of potential customers. This also includes actual racists or sexist entities. Let the buyer beware."

Neo-nazis certainly fit into the "racists" categorisation.

Quote from: horsesoldier on March 23, 2022, 12:28:13 PM
I would say the personal views of Heinlein are far worse than these supposed personal views of Baker.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 12:54:23 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 12:51:31 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2022, 11:08:53 AM
So I have a question:

What do you DO with this?

Burn his books? Exhume Barker and try him for the crime of stupid ideology? Urinate on his bones?

Thanks to the blather of wokeists, I am indifferent to 'Nazi' accusations. I don't fucking care. I want to know what crime this dead man has committed that we must pummel ourselves for it.

The suggestion that some posters have made is that his games should be added to the Red list, like how Varg Vikernes game currently is. Then these should be treated like any of the other games in the Red list.

  I was with that initially, but that is quite specifically a woke list.  So I am not so sure nazis belong there.  There should simply be a list that goes the other way IMO, from green to red based on how far right the authors go.  That list should also be made on another forum, and by people with that concern IMO,  leftists.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 23, 2022, 09:18:21 PM

Quote from: horsesoldier on March 23, 2022, 12:28:13 PM
I would say the personal views of Heinlein are far worse than these supposed personal views of Baker.

Well, you can fuck right off about that.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 23, 2022, 09:19:38 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 12:54:23 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 12:51:31 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2022, 11:08:53 AM
So I have a question:

What do you DO with this?

Burn his books? Exhume Barker and try him for the crime of stupid ideology? Urinate on his bones?

Thanks to the blather of wokeists, I am indifferent to 'Nazi' accusations. I don't fucking care. I want to know what crime this dead man has committed that we must pummel ourselves for it.

The suggestion that some posters have made is that his games should be added to the Red list, like how Varg Vikernes game currently is. Then these should be treated like any of the other games in the Red list.

  I was with that initially, but that is quite specifically a woke list.  So I am not so sure nazis belong there.  There should simply be a list that goes the other way IMO, from green to red based on how far right the authors go.  That list should also be made on another forum, and by people with that concern IMO,  leftists.

So are you suggesting libertarians and conservatives don't hate Nazis? I'm not sure everyone is with you on that.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:27:52 AM

   That is a very good point.   Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke.  Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.

Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 01:30:35 PM

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 01:12:10 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AMIncorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.

The header I see, the link to the novel I do not. Care to point me to it? Is the text of the actual book online, yes?

The same goes for the mags BEYOND the header. What did Barker actually contribute there? Isn't this stuff supposed to be publicly available?

I skimmed the first dozen pages of the thread, and I can't find the link again. It might have been to an archive.org page. If anyone has the link to Serpent's Walk, please post.

Edit: Found it
https://archive.org/details/CalverhallRandolphO.SerpentsWalk/mode/2up

And it doesn't matter what's beyond the header. He's listed as a contributing editor.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:01:58 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:27:52 AM

   That is a very good point.   Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke.  Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.

Oh but they are. Nazis believe exactly the same things about race as the wokists. They just flip which skin colors should be segregated or condemned. Except when it comes to Israel and Jews, where their beliefs match precisely.

Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 03:50:54 PM

Quote from: Abraxus on March 23, 2022, 08:37:40 AMAgreed and seconded .

Pundits rules seem to change on if he knows you or if you are a friend. So Chrine gets a free pass because of " reasons and feels " yet the TF does not because they made money of Barkers works. How very SJW of Pundit.

@ Pundit saying you never planned to ban Tenbones then say he should leave the forum if he does not answer your questions to your utmost satisfaction is the same damn thing.

eh. That at least is understandable reaction. And hate to say it. But there is something in how the foundation has acted that feels... off. Which is why I've never said that they are innocent of wrong. Just that we should not just jump to one negative conclusion without checking the whys of what went down and looking at all the angles and eliminating as many as possible. It undermines Pundits position. And will look exponentially worse if it turns out the foundation sat on the info for valid reasons.

Pointing fingers and snap negative conclusions is what the other side does.

They also do not want anyone actually investigating because sure enough. Things arent quite what they appear. They keep egging Pundit on because they know that if he stops raging and starts examining things rationally that their whole deception will be blown away and he'll come down on them like the wrath of god.

A truth bundled in lies and insinuations. And they couldn't even get the truth right.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:53:44 PM
So, if we're going to Cancell Barker after his death, and the games he wrote that have exactly ZERO nazi shit on them...

Shouldn't we also cancell ANY game based on Lovecraft's mythos regardless of who developed them?

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:07:42 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:01:58 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:27:52 AM

   That is a very good point.   Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke.  Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.

Oh but they are. Nazis believe exactly the same things about race as the wokists. They just flip which skin colors should be segregated or condemned. Except when it comes to Israel and Jews, where their beliefs match precisely.

  Race, maybe, nationalism, transgender issues, use of violence, etc they have some pretty different beliefs.    They are not the same thing, no more than an alligator and a bear are the same animal.  Both are dangerous, but present different dangers and in different ways.   Two things both being bad do not make them the same thing.  It makes them both bad, calling  two different bad things the same bad thing is folly.