Quote from: DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay on March 23, 2022, 01:10:34 PM
The amount of "I don't care if they wrote nazi sympathizing auth-right white nationalist works" from users who post dozens of times a week crying that Sarah Michelle Gellar or whoever the fuck else is promoting a leftist targeted RPG product here is staggering, not exactly unexpected given the specific users who are doing it, but it's astounding to me that these people are actually both that transparently stupid and that they're functionally literate enough while apparently not being at ALL self-aware.

If someone cares about the political, cultural, and social stances made by game designers enough to go shitting and crying and vomiting bile all over the internet but when it's revealed that someone was an actual eugenicist and nazi sympathizer and you openly post that you don't give a flying fuck, all they are doing is showcasing exactly how deranged and broken they are as a human being.

  If I were going to call anyone stupid, I would at least double check my spelling.

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 01:12:10 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AMIncorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.

The header I see, the link to the novel I do not. Care to point me to it? Is the text of the actual book online, yes?

The same goes for the mags BEYOND the header. What did Barker actually contribute there? Isn't this stuff supposed to be publicly available?

I skimmed the first dozen pages of the thread, and I can't find the link again. It might have been to an archive.org page. If anyone has the link to Serpent's Walk, please post.

Edit: Found it
https://archive.org/details/CalverhallRandolphO.SerpentsWalk/mode/2up

And it doesn't matter what's beyond the header. He's listed as a contributing editor.

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 01:12:10 PM
But - "admitted", what exactly? Only what people already knew, which is that Barker authored the novel. No word on other details, or on his involvement with the Holcaust-denying scholarly club.

The only statement we have from them so far, at all, is a FB post, over here: https://www.facebook.com/tekumelfoundation/

The TF fb post also confirms his involvement with the journal: "We have done our due diligence to ascertain the facts regarding Serpent's Walk and Professor Barker's affiliation with The Journal of Historical Review and we believe this needs to be recognized as part of Professor Barker's past." (bold mine)

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 12:54:23 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 12:51:31 PM
The suggestion that some posters have made is that his games should be added to the Red list, like how Varg Vikernes game currently is. Then these should be treated like any of the other games in the Red list.

  I was with that initially, but that is quite specifically a woke list.  So I am not so sure nazis belong there.  There should simply be a list that goes the other way IMO, from green to red based on how far right the authors go.  That list should also be made on another forum, and by people with that concern IMO,  leftists.

The list strictly speaking is the judgement of just the curator, Ocule, though he has taken input from many people. So the thread title isn't technically correct, but that's true for a lot of thread titles. As Ocule describes the Red list, it's "Entities who are categorized as Red may have engaged in anti-consumer behavior, deceptive business practices, interfered with other creators or taken a strong political stance or alienated large portions of potential customers. This also includes actual racists or sexist entities. Let the buyer beware.".

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/


As far as the forum as a whole - a lot of posters here who are not leftists still consider genuine neo-nazis to be of concern -- not least among them Pundit himself. Pundit forbids links to neo-nazi and white supremacy sites, and has banned a number of users for expressing anti-semitic views. There are a range of views among posters here, of course, but I think a large chunk seem fine with this.

Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 02:00:41 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 12:54:23 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 12:51:31 PM
The suggestion that some posters have made is that his games should be added to the Red list, like how Varg Vikernes game currently is. Then these should be treated like any of the other games in the Red list.

  I was with that initially, but that is quite specifically a woke list.  So I am not so sure nazis belong there.  There should simply be a list that goes the other way IMO, from green to red based on how far right the authors go.  That list should also be made on another forum, and by people with that concern IMO,  leftists.

The list strictly speaking is the judgement of just the curator, Ocule, though he has taken input from many people. So the thread title isn't technically correct, but that's true for a lot of thread titles. As Ocule describes the Red list, it's "Entities who are categorized as Red may have engaged in anti-consumer behavior, deceptive business practices, interfered with other creators or taken a strong political stance or alienated large portions of potential customers. This also includes actual racists or sexist entities. Let the buyer beware.".

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/


As far as the forum as a whole - a lot of posters here who are not leftists still consider genuine neo-nazis to be of concern -- not least among them Pundit himself. Pundit forbids links to neo-nazi and white supremacy sites, and has banned a number of users for expressing anti-semitic views. There are a range of views among posters here, of course, but I think a large chunk seem fine with this.

  Why do you make some example of saying neo nazis are a problem, when that is not the subject at all of the list or the intent of the list. It is also not being debated if they are or are not a problem.  I agree they are a problem, just get them their own list. Otherwise, it sure looks like the woke list is being debated and altered by woke people, the enemy of said list.  It is always a bad first step to let an enemy define terms IMO.  I suggest let people who want to label nazis, make their nazi list.  They can in fact call it exactly that and have a green, yellow and a red. 

 Enough left leaning people here to make their own Nazi list, alt-right list, or whatever else they would like to call it.  This forum is at least the sort of place such a list alongside it's extreme polar opposite list could be presented and posted.  I am for free speech, but lumping Nazis with woke is IMO no good, since we keep finding all these Nazis, and of course folks who are somewhere between green and nazi, so just make a nazi list and put them in red there.  I am sure someone would love to make such a list.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 02:11:07 PM
  Why do you make some example of saying neo nazis are a problem, when that is not the subject at all of the list or the intent of the list. It is also not being debated if they are or are not a problem.  I agree they are a problem, just get them their own list. Otherwise, it sure looks like the woke list is being debated and altered by woke people, the enemy of said list.  It is always a bad first step to let an enemy define terms IMO.  I suggest let people who want to label nazis, make their nazi list.  They can in fact call it exactly that and have a green, yellow and a red.

It's not me who defined the list that way -- it's Ocule, and he's the one who originated the list and is maintaining it. I was quoting his description of the Red list. If you want your own list that is only purely about left-vs-right politics, then you're welcome to make your own. Though I think a lot of politics doesn't accurately fall on a single line of left-vs-right.

I gather that for many posters -- they want to use the lists to see which companies they don't want to buy from, and they don't want to buy from *either* neo-nazis or wokists. So for them, the current list is more functional for them.

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
-- The content and the publication history of the novel, and possible changes to the original manuscript that were made by the publisher. Who knows, for all we know, Barker might have believed he was writing a fantasy version of "Springtime For Hitler". Thing is, we don't know until we get a proper look at the material.

Working through the book I get the increasing impression that either A: they did not have an editor, or B: did not notice how Barker was framing things. The Nazis in the book are the most mild, bordering on non-nazi characters you could imagine. They spend more time complaining about the unfair treatment Germany got and trying not to get zipped by the Izzies than they do any actual Nazi-ing. The main focus is their struggle against the very aggressive Israel forces who in the book have become a major world power or darn close. And do not get me wrong here. They do talk about the Jews in the book too. But at times it is almost as if they are talking about two different people. And so far not in a derogatory manner. Weirdest stuff ever for a pro-nazi book. Even the supremacist stuff is fairly in the background or being spouted by the brits and americans so far as I am seeing. But they are creating a white only nation and removing anyone not white from that area. Mostly peacefully and again in the background so far. Mostly.

I think Barker partnered with the publisher because he had an axe to grind with Israel and gave the publisher what they wanted. But got far more of what he wanted. A statement against the Israel/Pakistan war. And to show up Israel in a negative light. If I recall right hostilities or outright war was still ongoing at the time of the writing and did not end till a year or two after its publication.

None of which excuses what he did even if any of my guesses are right.

Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 02:36:25 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 02:11:07 PM
  Why do you make some example of saying neo nazis are a problem, when that is not the subject at all of the list or the intent of the list. It is also not being debated if they are or are not a problem.  I agree they are a problem, just get them their own list. Otherwise, it sure looks like the woke list is being debated and altered by woke people, the enemy of said list.  It is always a bad first step to let an enemy define terms IMO.  I suggest let people who want to label nazis, make their nazi list.  They can in fact call it exactly that and have a green, yellow and a red.

It's not me who defined the list that way -- it's Ocule, and he's the one who originated the list and is maintaining it. I was quoting his description of the Red list. If you want your own list that is only purely about left-vs-right politics, then you're welcome to make your own. Though I think a lot of politics doesn't accurately fall on a single line of left-vs-right.

I gather that for many posters -- they want to use the lists to see which companies they don't want to buy from, and they don't want to buy from *either* neo-nazis or wokists. So for them, the current list is more functional for them.

Nah its a woke list.  better to keep the cashews separate from the hazel nuts IMO. It was a mistake on his part for letting people who honestly had dubious "concerns" to "help" him define the list. 

Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 02:36:25 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 02:11:07 PM
  Why do you make some example of saying neo nazis are a problem, when that is not the subject at all of the list or the intent of the list. It is also not being debated if they are or are not a problem.  I agree they are a problem, just get them their own list. Otherwise, it sure looks like the woke list is being debated and altered by woke people, the enemy of said list.  It is always a bad first step to let an enemy define terms IMO.  I suggest let people who want to label nazis, make their nazi list.  They can in fact call it exactly that and have a green, yellow and a red.

It's not me who defined the list that way -- it's Ocule, and he's the one who originated the list and is maintaining it. I was quoting his description of the Red list. If you want your own list that is only purely about left-vs-right politics, then you're welcome to make your own. Though I think a lot of politics doesn't accurately fall on a single line of left-vs-right.

I gather that for many posters -- they want to use the lists to see which companies they don't want to buy from, and they don't want to buy from *either* neo-nazis or wokists. So for them, the current list is more functional for them.

   This is not left or right, it is woke versus nazis.  I CONSTANTLY have lefties telling everyone what far right is, and righties saying what is woke, so best to let the experts define their enemies IMO.

Quote from: Abraxus on March 23, 2022, 08:37:40 AMAgreed and seconded .

Pundits rules seem to change on if he knows you or if you are a friend. So Chrine gets a free pass because of " reasons and feels " yet the TF does not because they made money of Barkers works. How very SJW of Pundit.

@ Pundit saying you never planned to ban Tenbones then say he should leave the forum if he does not answer your questions to your utmost satisfaction is the same damn thing.

eh. That at least is understandable reaction. And hate to say it. But there is something in how the foundation has acted that feels... off. Which is why I've never said that they are innocent of wrong. Just that we should not just jump to one negative conclusion without checking the whys of what went down and looking at all the angles and eliminating as many as possible. It undermines Pundits position. And will look exponentially worse if it turns out the foundation sat on the info for valid reasons.

Pointing fingers and snap negative conclusions is what the other side does.

They also do not want anyone actually investigating because sure enough. Things arent quite what they appear. They keep egging Pundit on because they know that if he stops raging and starts examining things rationally that their whole deception will be blown away and he'll come down on them like the wrath of god.

A truth bundled in lies and insinuations. And they couldn't even get the truth right.

So, if we're going to Cancell Barker after his death, and the games he wrote that have exactly ZERO nazi shit on them...

Shouldn't we also cancell ANY game based on Lovecraft's mythos regardless of who developed them?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:53:44 PM
So, if we're going to Cancell Barker after his death, and the games he wrote that have exactly ZERO nazi shit on them...

Shouldn't we also cancell ANY game based on Lovecraft's mythos regardless of who developed them?

Hey, if it gets Fantasy Wargaming the axe... 

Though honestly my axe to grind with that RPG is the arrogance and demeaning attitude of the writers and some of their fans. I'd rather not see them red-listed for what I'd like to believe is just trying to be historically accurate. (in a game that then promptly throws that out the window. ahem.) Though the author singling out the Jewish players character still feels very off.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:53:44 PM
So, if we're going to Cancell Barker after his death, and the games he wrote that have exactly ZERO nazi shit on them...

Shouldn't we also cancell ANY game based on Lovecraft's mythos regardless of who developed them?

   Well I guess on the Nazi list, he would rate a yellow.

  Nazi list: Green = almost everyone
               Yellow= Judges guild for having a loon running around making money off of them
                           MAB Barker - for writing a book with Nazis as the good guys and sitting on a board that asks questions about the holocaust that is determined to be holocaust denial.  However his actual game products never hinted at any such ideologies or ideas.
                Red = Varg.  His game is pretty much all based around nazi propaganda tropes.  He also killed a guy.  So he is a nazi.

Professor M.A.R. Baker is still only the second worst Ma Baker.