Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
1. We only have a few press releases on Barker, so far, not the respective texts.

Incorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
2. As long as we don't have more than that, the case, specifically, and not just in principle, could plausibly turn out to have a different context than the one suggested:

Incorrect. The Tekumel Foundation admitted it.

Now, there is a possibility that he's really innocent and this was some convoluted combination of deception, infiltration and/or ignorance. But there's also the chance that the Sun will go supernova tomorrow. It's just not likely. Really not likely. Ridiculously unlikely.

By the standards by which any other publisher is judged -- e.g. the entire red list -- the evidence is extraordinarily strong. If we stand by the principle that everyone should be judged by the same standards, either every Woke publisher must be exculpated, or we should stop making apologies for Barker.

Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 05:52:44 AM


So the Foundation gets hell, but Chirine gets a pass? Because... feelings? Really? Chirine has feelings and can keep quiet because hes not profiting, but the foundation cant because they cant have feelings?

Again. We do not know why they kept quiet. For all we know Chirine asked them to not talk about it. For all we know the foundation forged the manuscript and placed it somewhere Chrine could find to discredit Barker. Theres any number of reasons and just jumping to the conclusion that they did it for greed is goes directly against everything you have been fighting here on this forum against what the SJWs do to people. And what did they do about this incident. Thats right. They LIED. Just to fan the flames. And if they have lied about three things. What else is a lie? They've probably added another in the time its taken me to type this out.

What is not a lie? I am sorry Dee. But Barker did write that book. And he wrote it with not one, but two agendas. And he put his agenda ahead of the other. In a way I was right at the beginning in postulating that maybe Barker did this as a subversion. I was just dead wrong about the intent. There is nothing good intentioned in Serpent's Walk. (or at least not in the normal sane definition of good intentioned...)

Agreed and seconded .

Pundits rules seem to change on if he knows you or if you are a friend. So Chrine gets a free pass because of " reasons and feels " yet the TF does not because they made money of Barkers works. How very SJW of Pundit.

@ Pundit saying you never planned to ban Tenbones then say he should leave the forum if he does not answer your questions to your utmost satisfaction is the same damn thing.

Quote from: Abraxus on March 23, 2022, 08:37:40 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 05:52:44 AM


So the Foundation gets hell, but Chirine gets a pass? Because... feelings? Really? Chirine has feelings and can keep quiet because hes not profiting, but the foundation cant because they cant have feelings?

Again. We do not know why they kept quiet. For all we know Chirine asked them to not talk about it. For all we know the foundation forged the manuscript and placed it somewhere Chrine could find to discredit Barker. Theres any number of reasons and just jumping to the conclusion that they did it for greed is goes directly against everything you have been fighting here on this forum against what the SJWs do to people. And what did they do about this incident. Thats right. They LIED. Just to fan the flames. And if they have lied about three things. What else is a lie? They've probably added another in the time its taken me to type this out.

What is not a lie? I am sorry Dee. But Barker did write that book. And he wrote it with not one, but two agendas. And he put his agenda ahead of the other. In a way I was right at the beginning in postulating that maybe Barker did this as a subversion. I was just dead wrong about the intent. There is nothing good intentioned in Serpent's Walk. (or at least not in the normal sane definition of good intentioned...)

Agreed and seconded .

Pundits rules seem to change on if he knows you or if you are a friend. So Chrine gets a free pass because of " reasons and feels " yet the TF does not because they made money of Barkers works. How very SJW of Pundit.

@ Pundit saying you never planned to ban Tenbones then say he should leave the forum if he does not answer your questions to your utmost satisfaction is the same damn thing.

I think this may be the crux of the disagreement.

Because everything you and Omega just said about Pundit? It seems to be pure projection. From my perspective, you two are the ones who are treating people differently, apparently based on your feelings. Any other company would have been on the red list, with no question. And Chirine doesn't go on the red list, because Chirine isn't a publisher. The whole point of the red list, after all, is to warn people about publishers. For me, that's a picture perfect example of applying the same standards to everyone, regardless of whether you like them or not. Whereas your position is attempting to carve out an exception, for someone you apparently like. I can't see any rational basis at all for your stance.

Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AM

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
1. We only have a few press releases on Barker, so far, not the respective texts.

Incorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
2. As long as we don't have more than that, the case, specifically, and not just in principle, could plausibly turn out to have a different context than the one suggested:

Incorrect. The Tekumel Foundation admitted it.

Now, there is a possibility that he's really innocent and this was some convoluted combination of deception, infiltration and/or ignorance. But there's also the chance that the Sun will go supernova tomorrow. It's just not likely. Really not likely. Ridiculously unlikely.

By the standards by which any other publisher is judged -- e.g. the entire red list -- the evidence is extraordinarily strong. If we stand by the principle that everyone should be judged by the same standards, either every Woke publisher must be exculpated, or we should stop making apologies for Barker.

Is there any evidence that Barker or the Tekumel society were particularly "woke"?

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/

As the title suggests, the impetus for the thread was companies that were/are alienating some of their customers via their "woke" stances. Someone may not like that the list is partisan, but it's right there in the title from day one. A browse of the reasons why certain publishers are on the list include a lot of particular political and social stances.

Maybe if he's so concerned, Tubesock can create "A guide to neo-Nazi game companies". And put the Tekumel society on his red list.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 23, 2022, 09:20:39 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AM

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
1. We only have a few press releases on Barker, so far, not the respective texts.

Incorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
2. As long as we don't have more than that, the case, specifically, and not just in principle, could plausibly turn out to have a different context than the one suggested:

Incorrect. The Tekumel Foundation admitted it.

Now, there is a possibility that he's really innocent and this was some convoluted combination of deception, infiltration and/or ignorance. But there's also the chance that the Sun will go supernova tomorrow. It's just not likely. Really not likely. Ridiculously unlikely.

By the standards by which any other publisher is judged -- e.g. the entire red list -- the evidence is extraordinarily strong. If we stand by the principle that everyone should be judged by the same standards, either every Woke publisher must be exculpated, or we should stop making apologies for Barker.

Is there any evidence that Barker or the Tekumel society were particularly "woke"?

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/

As the title suggests, the impetus for the thread was companies that were/are alienating some of their customers via their "woke" stances. Someone may not like that the list is partisan, but it's right there in the title from day one. A browse of the reasons why certain publishers are on the list include a lot of particular political and social stances.

Maybe if he's so concerned, Tubesock can create "A guide to neo-Nazi game companies". And put the Tekumel society on his red list.

   That is a very good point.   Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke.  Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.  He should call it degrees of to far right maybe?  He could have a little too right be people who ever voted republican.  Far right be people who are concerned about their daughters having to enter a bathroom with a man.  The new nazis (because lets face it, besides Varg and M.A.R., it is going to be slim pickings on finding publishers of nazi authors, unless we put Amazon on there for still distributing Mein Kampf and up till a year ago the Turner diaries) he can let be anyone who opposes affirmative action. 

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 23, 2022, 09:20:39 AM
Is there any evidence that Barker or the Tekumel society were particularly "woke"?

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/

As the title suggests, the impetus for the thread was companies that were/are alienating some of their customers via their "woke" stances. Someone may not like that the list is partisan, but it's right there in the title from day one. A browse of the reasons why certain publishers are on the list include a lot of particular political and social stances.

Varg isn't woke, either. And is on the list.

I've argued repeatedly, with some minor success, that the list should include all bad actors. Specifically, those who practice or support exclusion. While majority are Woke, because Wokism is the largest and most bigoted group in politics, it shouldn't be partisan. Anyone who behaves that way should qualify, regardless of their political stripes.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 23, 2022, 09:20:39 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AM

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
1. We only have a few press releases on Barker, so far, not the respective texts.

Incorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
2. As long as we don't have more than that, the case, specifically, and not just in principle, could plausibly turn out to have a different context than the one suggested:

Incorrect. The Tekumel Foundation admitted it.

Now, there is a possibility that he's really innocent and this was some convoluted combination of deception, infiltration and/or ignorance. But there's also the chance that the Sun will go supernova tomorrow. It's just not likely. Really not likely. Ridiculously unlikely.

By the standards by which any other publisher is judged -- e.g. the entire red list -- the evidence is extraordinarily strong. If we stand by the principle that everyone should be judged by the same standards, either every Woke publisher must be exculpated, or we should stop making apologies for Barker.

Is there any evidence that Barker or the Tekumel society were particularly "woke"?

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/

As the title suggests, the impetus for the thread was companies that were/are alienating some of their customers via their "woke" stances. Someone may not like that the list is partisan, but it's right there in the title from day one. A browse of the reasons why certain publishers are on the list include a lot of particular political and social stances.

Maybe if he's so concerned, Tubesock can create "A guide to neo-Nazi game companies". And put the Tekumel society on his red list.

TheRPGSite: Wokies are the real nazis!!!

Also TheRPGSite: Nazis don't belong on the "red list", that's just for wokies!!!

Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 23, 2022, 10:31:20 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 23, 2022, 09:20:39 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AM

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
1. We only have a few press releases on Barker, so far, not the respective texts.

Incorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
2. As long as we don't have more than that, the case, specifically, and not just in principle, could plausibly turn out to have a different context than the one suggested:

Incorrect. The Tekumel Foundation admitted it.

Now, there is a possibility that he's really innocent and this was some convoluted combination of deception, infiltration and/or ignorance. But there's also the chance that the Sun will go supernova tomorrow. It's just not likely. Really not likely. Ridiculously unlikely.

By the standards by which any other publisher is judged -- e.g. the entire red list -- the evidence is extraordinarily strong. If we stand by the principle that everyone should be judged by the same standards, either every Woke publisher must be exculpated, or we should stop making apologies for Barker.

Is there any evidence that Barker or the Tekumel society were particularly "woke"?

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/

As the title suggests, the impetus for the thread was companies that were/are alienating some of their customers via their "woke" stances. Someone may not like that the list is partisan, but it's right there in the title from day one. A browse of the reasons why certain publishers are on the list include a lot of particular political and social stances.

Maybe if he's so concerned, Tubesock can create "A guide to neo-Nazi game companies". And put the Tekumel society on his red list.

TheRPGSite: Wokies are the real nazis!!!

Also TheRPGSite: Nazis don't belong on the "red list", that's just for wokies!!!

  They have some similar behaviors, but I know I have never even hinted they are nazis.  All non compromising totalitarian bent ideologies have similarities.  Just kick up a list of publishers you think are to the right, far right and the new iteration of "Nazis".   That seems the best solution, and can be a good guide for folks who do not agree with those thoughts.   This way we do not mix up the fasc and the antifasc. 

  It also makes better sense, as people really should not allow an enemy to decide labels for them from the enemies perspective on their own lists.

So I have a question:

What do you DO with this?

Burn his books? Exhume Barker and try him for the crime of stupid ideology? Urinate on his bones?

Thanks to the blather of wokeists, I am indifferent to 'Nazi' accusations. I don't fucking care. I want to know what crime this dead man has committed that we must pummel ourselves for it.

Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 23, 2022, 10:31:20 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 23, 2022, 09:20:39 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AM

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
1. We only have a few press releases on Barker, so far, not the respective texts.

Incorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
2. As long as we don't have more than that, the case, specifically, and not just in principle, could plausibly turn out to have a different context than the one suggested:

Incorrect. The Tekumel Foundation admitted it.

Now, there is a possibility that he's really innocent and this was some convoluted combination of deception, infiltration and/or ignorance. But there's also the chance that the Sun will go supernova tomorrow. It's just not likely. Really not likely. Ridiculously unlikely.

By the standards by which any other publisher is judged -- e.g. the entire red list -- the evidence is extraordinarily strong. If we stand by the principle that everyone should be judged by the same standards, either every Woke publisher must be exculpated, or we should stop making apologies for Barker.

Is there any evidence that Barker or the Tekumel society were particularly "woke"?

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/

As the title suggests, the impetus for the thread was companies that were/are alienating some of their customers via their "woke" stances. Someone may not like that the list is partisan, but it's right there in the title from day one. A browse of the reasons why certain publishers are on the list include a lot of particular political and social stances.

Maybe if he's so concerned, Tubesock can create "A guide to neo-Nazi game companies". And put the Tekumel society on his red list.

TheRPGSite: Wokies are the real nazis!!!

Also TheRPGSite: Nazis don't belong on the "red list", that's just for wokies!!!

Tubesock: Drat! Someone pointed out the flaw in my argument! I'd better construct a strawman as a distraction!

There is some amazingly sloppy thinking in this thread.

The guy was probably really sad the third reich turned out how it did. So what? He's a creative weirdo. Weird creative people have unorthodox opinions. The man was a creative genius and laid the groundwork for much of fantasy gaming, as has been pointed out.

By example, and I am not saying anything bad about the man, but in Current Year, Greg Stafford would be seen as highly suspect for his interest in creating a fantasy setting based on migration era Europe. Suppose he had some bad views? Do we cancel him? Or does it require him having written something under a pen name? Robert Heinlein certainly had some creative weirdo views, and he openly wrote them under his name. Is he immune, or does it just take the wrong person reading Farham's Freehold to have his corpse raked over the coals? I would say the personal views of Heinlein are far worse than these supposed personal views of Baker.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2022, 11:08:53 AM
So I have a question:

What do you DO with this?

Burn his books? Exhume Barker and try him for the crime of stupid ideology? Urinate on his bones?

Thanks to the blather of wokeists, I am indifferent to 'Nazi' accusations. I don't fucking care. I want to know what crime this dead man has committed that we must pummel ourselves for it.

The suggestion that some posters have made is that his games should be added to the Red list, like how Varg Vikernes game currently is. Then these should be treated like any of the other games in the Red list.

Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 12:51:31 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2022, 11:08:53 AM
So I have a question:

What do you DO with this?

Burn his books? Exhume Barker and try him for the crime of stupid ideology? Urinate on his bones?

Thanks to the blather of wokeists, I am indifferent to 'Nazi' accusations. I don't fucking care. I want to know what crime this dead man has committed that we must pummel ourselves for it.

The suggestion that some posters have made is that his games should be added to the Red list, like how Varg Vikernes game currently is. Then these should be treated like any of the other games in the Red list.

  I was with that initially, but that is quite specifically a woke list.  So I am not so sure nazis belong there.  There should simply be a list that goes the other way IMO, from green to red based on how far right the authors go.  That list should also be made on another forum, and by people with that concern IMO,  leftists.

The amount of "I don't care if they wrote nazi sympathizing auth-right white nationalist works" from users who post dozens of times a week crying that Sarah Michelle Gellar or whoever the fuck else is promoting a leftist targeted RPG product here is staggering, not exactly unexpected given the specific users who are doing it, but it's astounding to me that these people are actually both that transparently stupid and that they're functionally literate enough while apparently not being at ALL self-aware.

If someone cares about the political, cultural, and social stances made by game designers enough to go shitting and crying and vomiting bile all over the internet but when it's revealed that someone was an actual eugenicist and nazi sympathizer and you openly post that you don't give a flying fuck, all they are doing is showcasing exactly how deranged and broken they are as a human being.

Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AMIncorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.

The header I see, the link to the novel I do not. Care to point me to it? Is the text of the actual book online, yes?

The same goes for the mags BEYOND the header. What did Barker actually contribute there? Isn't this stuff supposed to be publicly available?

Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AMIncorrect. The Tekumel Foundation admitted it.

But - "admitted", what exactly? Only what people already knew, which is that Barker authored the novel. No word on other details, or on his involvement with the Holcaust-denying scholarly club.

The only statement we have from them so far, at all, is a FB post, over here: https://www.facebook.com/tekumelfoundation/

Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AMNow, there is a possibility that he's really innocent and this was some convoluted combination of deception, infiltration and/or ignorance. But there's also the chance that the Sun will go supernova tomorrow. It's just not likely. Really not likely. Ridiculously unlikely.

Again, I'm not defending Barker - I'm just saying, the supposed offenses are text-based, not just witnesses talking about past events.

We might never know what exactly happened in other cases - but in this one, there's a fair chance we might get a fairly clear idea of the extent of each offense.