Quote from: Pat on March 21, 2022, 11:47:40 PM

Quote from: Abraxus on March 21, 2022, 10:13:37 PM
Unfortunately I wonder if Pundit understands how Cocksuck Soyarmy has completely and throughly played him.

I wonder if he cares remotely that he might lose members of his forum. Or that he is behaving exactly like the regressive repressive Wokescolds like other forums like Rpg.net.

Personal admission I have heard of Tekumal the rpg. Came close to joining a game. It never really took off in my neck of the woods beaten soundly by D&D. I'm not a fan of Barker Anti-Semantism I won't call those who pay for or enjoy his products Nazis or those who promote anti-semantism.

Problem is Pundit is so convinced of his side to the point of not being able to see the other side.worse it's like reading one of those sarcastic comments the mods over at Rpg.net or Paizo forums. I'm not seeing any difference at this point really. Either here or on Twitter.

Then again I'm not sure if he remotely cares about chasing away the moderate elements who refuse to kiss his ass. He can surround himself with sycophants I and others like Tenbones are simply not going to do so.

Pundit isn't the one sounding like the regressives at TBP.

The evidence against Barker is pretty damning at this point.

Yeah, but "they" have to play degrees of seperation now. No one is accusing Tekumel of being pro-Nazi, and the only current "issue" is that the Tekumel society probably knew and didn't say anything.
Not great, but hardly a huge scandal. If we're going to accuse businesses of being cowardly or shady, then everybody stop associating with every business that currently exists, and possibly ever existed.
Tubesock has been trying to get under everyone's skin, and mostly succeeding. I really don't care, except Pundit has poked his nose and, and considering his reaction, I'd like to know if Tekumel is a banned topic due to it's Nazi adjacency.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:08:30 PMThe problem with all of this is that if Barker had turned out to be a supporter of Al Qaeda instead of a Nazi, you'd be calling for blood.

For my part, I am consistent in my position that I am completely and utterly indifferent to the political positions and personal lives of game writers - and musicians, etc. A search through this forum of my previous comments on similar issues will demonstrate this.

If we discovered that the first manuscript for AD&D1e had been found by Gygax on a trip to Munich where he found it lodged under the bed Hitler had slept on while incarcerated for his failed Beer Hall Putsch, I would shrug with indifference and roll up my character - 3d6 down the line, of course.

And if we looked through that warehouse the US has and found the Ark of the Covenant and under the dust of the first broken tablets of the Noahite Laws was a copy of a collection of Ron Edwards' writings, inspired by God himself, I would still have no interest whatsoever.

The license plates made are just as visible on the backs of vehicles, notwithstanding the fact that some of them will be made by imprisoned child rapists and serial killers.

The art, if it be art, stands independently of the artist.

I had no interest in Tekumel before all this nonsense, and my interest is decreased nor increased not an iota either way.

The only reason to say differently is to signal your virtue. Pffft.

Quote from: Arkansan on March 22, 2022, 12:19:39 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:32:03 PM
Hitler remarked he would have preferred the Muslims had won the Battle of Tours (732).  He said he thought Islam would have been preferable for the "German character," calling Christianity "flabby." (link for context)
Phillip Barker changed his name to Muhammad Abd-al-Rahman Barker when he converted to Islam.
The Muslim leader defeated at the Battle of Tours was Muhammad Abdul Rahman Al-Ghafiqi.
I think it's likely MAR Barker renamed himself after a statement by Hitler to indicate his agreement.

This is some next level armchair psychoanalysis of a dead man.

It's not psychoanalysis, but it is the biographical equivalent of p-hacking. With any sufficiently large data set with variables that can be controlled in different ways, you can always find a way to make the data appear to support any pre-determined conclusion. It's a close cousins to trolling social media histories to find statements that can be taken out of context to discredit someone, or another variation on the dogwhistling nonsense, where if you assume secret messages you can decode any text to mean anything you want.

Barker being on the board of a Holocaust denial journal and writing a neo-Nazi fiction is strong evidence. This is garbage.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 21, 2022, 04:11:28 PM
Ahem.

Before people start throwing around 'You're a Nazi! And YOU'RE a Nazi!'... remember that this is one of the left's pride-and-joy tactics: slapping the 'unforgiveable' label on anyone who breaks the narrative.

Remember: they've smeared everyone from Jordan Peterson to Pundit himself as a Nazi.

Ask yourself the age old question: who profits?

But this isn't a smear. This is a guy who literally wrote a neo-nazi novel and served on the board of a major  neo-nazi periodical.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 05:57:27 PM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 05:22:15 PMI 100% agree with Pundit here, and I NEVER agree with him. Y'all lookin like straight clowns.

Throughout this thread, Pundit has been strawmanning people's arguments, refusing to admit anyone might have a point, and engaging in petty name calling and accusations of transitive Nazi-ism.

Congratulations, the one time you agree with Pundit is when he's been a complete ass.

The only people making asses of themselves here are the ones so scared of SJWs that they're afraid to say "Nazis are bad".

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 22, 2022, 12:38:13 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 21, 2022, 11:47:40 PM

Quote from: Abraxus on March 21, 2022, 10:13:37 PM
Unfortunately I wonder if Pundit understands how Cocksuck Soyarmy has completely and throughly played him.

I wonder if he cares remotely that he might lose members of his forum. Or that he is behaving exactly like the regressive repressive Wokescolds like other forums like Rpg.net.

Personal admission I have heard of Tekumal the rpg. Came close to joining a game. It never really took off in my neck of the woods beaten soundly by D&D. I'm not a fan of Barker Anti-Semantism I won't call those who pay for or enjoy his products Nazis or those who promote anti-semantism.

Problem is Pundit is so convinced of his side to the point of not being able to see the other side.worse it's like reading one of those sarcastic comments the mods over at Rpg.net or Paizo forums. I'm not seeing any difference at this point really. Either here or on Twitter.

Then again I'm not sure if he remotely cares about chasing away the moderate elements who refuse to kiss his ass. He can surround himself with sycophants I and others like Tenbones are simply not going to do so.

Pundit isn't the one sounding like the regressives at TBP.

The evidence against Barker is pretty damning at this point.

Yeah, but "they" have to play degrees of seperation now. No one is accusing Tekumel of being pro-Nazi, and the only current "issue" is that the Tekumel society probably knew and didn't say anything.
Not great, but hardly a huge scandal. If we're going to accuse businesses of being cowardly or shady, then everybody stop associating with every business that currently exists, and possibly ever existed.
Tubesock has been trying to get under everyone's skin, and mostly succeeding. I really don't care, except Pundit has poked his nose and, and considering his reaction, I'd like to know if Tekumel is a banned topic due to it's Nazi adjacency.

False equivalence. An author who is the reason a foundation exists being on the board of a Holocaust-denying journal and writing neo-Nazi fiction is not "every business that currently exists, or possibly every existed".

It's fine for someone to go "eh, I like Tekumel anyway" or "this doesn't matter to me". The red list isn't a mandate, after all. But it's really bizarre how many people have gone all in denying it matters. This is a big deal, and it casts a long pall on Barker's contributions. That's why the whole thread seems like the distaff counterpart of the Woke reaction to the red list.

I do agree that Tubesock is an ass. But that doesn't change the facts.

Quote from: Abraxus on March 21, 2022, 10:13:37 PM
Unfortunately I wonder if Pundit understands how Cocksuck Soyarmy has completely and throughly played him.

I wonder if he cares remotely that he might lose members of his forum. Or that he is behaving exactly like the regressive repressive Wokescolds like other forums like Rpg.net.

If "nazis are bad" is something that causes people to leave here, good riddance.
And if people are so stupid as to think that saying "nazis are bad" means someone is a 'wokescold' they are too stupid or cowardly for me to want them on my side.

QuotePersonal admission I have heard of Tekumal the rpg. Came close to joining a game. It never really took off in my neck of the woods beaten soundly by D&D. I'm not a fan of Barker Anti-Semantism I won't call those who pay for or enjoy his products Nazis or those who promote anti-semantism.

Problem is Pundit is so convinced of his side to the point of not being able to see the other side.

The other side here is people saying "we should go easy on real nazis because if not the left somehow wins". That side is insane and dangerous.

Quote
Then again I'm not sure if he remotely cares about chasing away the moderate elements who refuse to kiss his ass. He can surround himself with sycophants I and others like Tenbones are simply not going to do so.

No one who thinks they have to go out of their way to excuse or defend Nazis is a "moderate element". They are either sympathetic to Nazi ideas, or they are so hysterically terrified of the left that they are willing to abandon all principles just to contradict "the left".  Which means that in their hysteria, they've become exactly like the left (who will, for example, defend and cover for virulent anti-semitism as long as its being done by people on their side).

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 21, 2022, 11:03:55 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 06:20:31 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 20, 2022, 06:36:58 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2022, 01:55:01 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 20, 2022, 01:23:22 PM
Which is unfortunately all the more reason to not bring this up. Or be locked in indecision. We do not know how much they knew of all this. Or for how long. Especially if Barker was as good at concealing this as it seems.

As said before. Damned if they do, damned if they dont.

This would be a different matter if the foundation was also as bad as Barker. But far as we know. They arent.

Damning them for not dragging out the skeleton in their closet is exactly what the Woke do. Beat on them if they do something wrong. Not for being afraid of the mob. Or just being indecisive about what to do.

THEY DID DO SOMETHING WRONG. They distorted history while protecting a Nazi so that they could keep on making money!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip#:~:text=Operation%20Paperclip%20was%20a%20secret,Europe%2C%20between%201945%20and%201959.

So, we going to ban Tekumel and it's publishers from being mentioned on this site because MAR Barker reportedly wrote a piece of pro-Nazi fiction? I wouldn't want to get banned for mentioning a forbidden topic.

Barker wasn't working on the space program; he was writing weird RPG books while actively concealing that he was also writing nazi novels and acting as an "editor" for their magazine of revisionist holocaust-denying history.

And the Tekumel Foundation, who claim not to be Nazis, hid that fact so they could keep profiting off his works.

That doesn't answer my question.

Have you seen anyone here being banned yet?

I mean, so long as anyone isn't actually actively promoting Nazism here, or spreading racial hatred or anti-semitic statements, I don't see bans happening.

The idea that I'm somehow the one being inconsistent is ridiculous. I literally banned an anti-semite from this forum last week. The people who are being inconsistent are the ones who complain about leftist racial politics but who would seemingly throw themselves on a grenade to try to deny the overwhelming evidence of Barker having secretly been  a piece of shit.

Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 02:25:36 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 22, 2022, 12:38:13 AM

Quote from: Pat on March 21, 2022, 11:47:40 PM

Quote from: Abraxus on March 21, 2022, 10:13:37 PM
Unfortunately I wonder if Pundit understands how Cocksuck Soyarmy has completely and throughly played him.

I wonder if he cares remotely that he might lose members of his forum. Or that he is behaving exactly like the regressive repressive Wokescolds like other forums like Rpg.net.

Personal admission I have heard of Tekumal the rpg. Came close to joining a game. It never really took off in my neck of the woods beaten soundly by D&D. I'm not a fan of Barker Anti-Semantism I won't call those who pay for or enjoy his products Nazis or those who promote anti-semantism.

Problem is Pundit is so convinced of his side to the point of not being able to see the other side.worse it's like reading one of those sarcastic comments the mods over at Rpg.net or Paizo forums. I'm not seeing any difference at this point really. Either here or on Twitter.

Then again I'm not sure if he remotely cares about chasing away the moderate elements who refuse to kiss his ass. He can surround himself with sycophants I and others like Tenbones are simply not going to do so.

Pundit isn't the one sounding like the regressives at TBP.

The evidence against Barker is pretty damning at this point.

Yeah, but "they" have to play degrees of seperation now. No one is accusing Tekumel of being pro-Nazi, and the only current "issue" is that the Tekumel society probably knew and didn't say anything.
Not great, but hardly a huge scandal. If we're going to accuse businesses of being cowardly or shady, then everybody stop associating with every business that currently exists, and possibly ever existed.
Tubesock has been trying to get under everyone's skin, and mostly succeeding. I really don't care, except Pundit has poked his nose and, and considering his reaction, I'd like to know if Tekumel is a banned topic due to it's Nazi adjacency.

False equivalence. An author who is the reason a foundation exists being on the board of a Holocaust-denying journal and writing neo-Nazi fiction is not "every business that currently exists, or possibly every existed".

You're right. The things that current businesses get up to are far more relevant and important than some internet drama over an obscure RPG setting's board hushing up the creator's piece of pro-Nazi fiction. I stand corrected.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 22, 2022, 02:40:29 AM

You're right. The things that current businesses get up to are far more relevant and important than some internet drama over an obscure RPG setting's board hushing up the creator's piece of pro-Nazi fiction. I stand corrected.

First of all, Barker isn't some obscure RPG author. Tekumel is one of the most important contributions to the hobby. Secondly, who cares if some big company like Netflix is more influential? This is an RPG board. We're here to discuss things relevant to the hobby.

Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 03:00:34 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 22, 2022, 02:40:29 AM

You're right. The things that current businesses get up to are far more relevant and important than some internet drama over an obscure RPG setting's board hushing up the creator's piece of pro-Nazi fiction. I stand corrected.

First of all, Barker isn't some obscure RPG author. Tekumel is one of the most important contributions to the hobby. Secondly, who cares if some big company like Netflix is more influential? This is an RPG board. We're here to discuss things relevant to the hobby.

One of the most obscure and near forgotten contributions to the hobby you mean. Tekumel has always been a very niche game. The density of the setting probably both helps and hinders it. Theres been tries to revive it over the years but they all seem to putter out for this or that reason. I got into it during the "Adventures on" era. But it was so obscure it was not till many a year later that I finished my collection of it.

Alot of folk have heard of Tekumel and Empire of the Petal Throne I believe. But few seem to actually know what the setting is or have played it. And even fewer know its history and connections with TSR. And probably even fewer know of the extensive side material generated for the setting. Material that far as I can tell is hard to come by.

I think only possibly Harn rivals Tekumel for being so well thought out and and detailed.

@Pundit

I am not pro-Nazi so fuck off with that shit let's be very crystal clear on that point.

Now if anyone else besides Cucksuck Soyarmy had posted this, and was a poster with a history arguing points in good faith and stirring shit on this site. Well you know how he is.

Your letting yourself be played because he did research on you and found you hate Nazi. How does he sow chaos and discord on this site between you and members. He make a list about barker being pro-Nazi.

Then again between this thread and Twitter you have shown yourself to be unwilling to be wrong on anything. Heaven forbid the grand Pundiit be wrong. Not on this topic just in general. Someone disagrees with you and the attacks against their character or in general begin. Sorry but I'm not getting paid to kiss your ass.

As for Barker yeah it's not looking good. As for those thinking that Tekumel is well known LOL you need to do the equivalent of getting out of your parent basement. As beyond a few in the hobby it's very niche and not well known at all. It's like Harn in that regard.
I heard about the rpg from Dragon magazine early back in the 1980s. Otherwise I probably would never have heard about it. Even way back then no one in my area played it. It was mostly D&D and almost nothing else.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 22, 2022, 02:39:07 AM
The idea that I'm somehow the one being inconsistent is ridiculous. I literally banned an anti-semite from this forum last week. The people who are being inconsistent are the ones who complain about leftist racial politics but who would seemingly throw themselves on a grenade to try to deny the overwhelming evidence of Barker having secretly been  a piece of shit.

No, you are being inconsistent. You are doing exactly what the group of people you rail against do by making false equivalences and compelling speech from others. You were yelling at a longtime member to declare himself a Nazi or a moronic cunt. You threatened a ban over it.

This is your button, and the trolls know it. It is common knowledge that nothing sets you off like anti-Semitism. So if I wanted to fuck with your RPG forum, I'd probably do exactly what Tubesock did which is start this topic pretending like I didn't know who/what Barker or Tekumel was, just to see if I could draw some of the community offsides. After all, I'm a feckless troll who only exists to disrupt the members.

But by in large, nobody took the bait, so he switched to the crocodile tears about the fall of a legend. Any spark to light the fire. Go back and see how quick he turned me pointing out the inconsistencies of what he said about knowing Barker into being a Nazi sympathizer. That was the goal all along.

Not a single person has sympathized with a Nazi or anti-Semite. You have surrounded yourself by free thinkers who ask questions and refuse to have their free speech compelled. They're not going to break their values for Barker, and they are not going to break them for you.

Nazis and anti-Semites are objectively bad, representing the very worst of humanity. Hearing you talk in the past, I think we share more than a few things in common on this subject, but I do not leverage my personal life and family in arguments on forums about wizards and dragons. And they do not hold power over me today. Trolls could not do to me what they have done to you.

If people leave it is not because they are Nazis, neo-Nazi, or whatever term you and your temporary bedfellows like to throw around on people they do not agree with. It will be because this place no longer talks about RPGs, or is no longer the place for free speech or ideas.

Quote from: Pat on March 21, 2022, 11:47:40 PM

Quote from: Abraxus on March 21, 2022, 10:13:37 PM
Unfortunately I wonder if Pundit understands how Cocksuck Soyarmy has completely and throughly played him.

I wonder if he cares remotely that he might lose members of his forum. Or that he is behaving exactly like the regressive repressive Wokescolds like other forums like Rpg.net.

Personal admission I have heard of Tekumal the rpg. Came close to joining a game. It never really took off in my neck of the woods beaten soundly by D&D. I'm not a fan of Barker Anti-Semantism I won't call those who pay for or enjoy his products Nazis or those who promote anti-semantism.

Problem is Pundit is so convinced of his side to the point of not being able to see the other side.worse it's like reading one of those sarcastic comments the mods over at Rpg.net or Paizo forums. I'm not seeing any difference at this point really. Either here or on Twitter.

Then again I'm not sure if he remotely cares about chasing away the moderate elements who refuse to kiss his ass. He can surround himself with sycophants I and others like Tenbones are simply not going to do so.

Pundit isn't the one sounding like the regressives at TBP.

The evidence against Barker is pretty damning at this point.

I'm not denying what is being said about Barker.

Yet Punfit very much comes off as a hypocrite imo at this point.

He does not get to play " go go anti-woke SJW  Ranger". Pokes fun at SJWs whenever he can when it's a cause he does not believe in then virtue signal from the highest rooftops about how bad Barker is.

Or to put it another way he does not get a free pass on being a hypocrite simply for who he is. If one claims to want to hear from both sides and an advocate of free speech then he loses the right to be both pissy and passive aggressive when he gets pushback. Then again seeing how he behaves here and on Twitter he is anything but.

You want to be a sycophantic and kiss Pundits ass I'm not doing that.

If he wants to be played by Soyarmy like thrift store Banjo that's on him.

Quote from: Abraxus on March 22, 2022, 07:28:34 AM
@Pundit

I am not pro-Nazi so fuck off with that shit let's be very crystal clear on that point.

Now if anyone else besides Cucksuck Soyarmy had posted this, and was a poster with a history arguing points in good faith and stirring shit on this site. Well you know how he is.

Your letting yourself be played because he did research on you and found you hate Nazi. How does he sow chaos and discord on this site between you and members. He make a list about barker being pro-Nazi.

Then again between this thread and Twitter you have shown yourself to be unwilling to be wrong on anything. Heaven forbid the grand Pundiit be wrong. Not on this topic just in general. Someone disagrees with you and the attacks against their character or in general begin. Sorry but I'm not getting paid to kiss your ass.

As for Barker yeah it's not looking good. As for those thinking that Tekumel is well known LOL you need to do the equivalent of getting out of your parent basement. As beyond a few in the hobby it's very niche and not well known at all. It's like Harn in that regard.
I heard about the rpg from Dragon magazine early back in the 1980s. Otherwise I probably would never have heard about it. Even way back then no one in my area played it. It was mostly D&D and almost nothing else.

"Did research and found out you hate nazis"

Holy lol, I didn't think you guys could make yourselves look stupider than "Barker's fingerprints are all over the murder weapon, we've got to figure out how he didn't do this", but "Pundit has disagreed with me, therefore he has obviously been duped by a long con perpetrated by that devious mastermind known as Tubesock Army" is orders of magnitude stupider. Congratulations, I guess?