Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 04:38:23 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 04:08:53 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 03:56:12 PM
Pundit hasn't called anyone a Nazi.

Some forum posters seem intent on portraying themselves as Nazi sympathizers. Which is a choice, I guess.

  No, they are not portraying that, unless that is what you want to see.  They would have to be pointing out how they agree with things Barker did or wrote on the matter to be that.  I think they are taking being contrarian and skeptical of reporting to the fence, but sympathizer?  No.

If being contrarian puts you on the side of Nazis, you lack an understanding of what two reasonable poles of opinion are.

I am still mulling over Spinachcat's assertion that the white people are the real victims here, and that in light of the revelation that Barker was a Nazi, what we really need is a new publisher for Tekumel.

  The problem with seeing discussions as a binary, means you have to be on a side.  I can see clear as day that was never a thing.  People like you do all they can to paint a narrative non stop.  People wanting to know more, seem skeptical, etc are not on the side of Nazis.  That is the point of view of a child.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:43:25 PM
FACT: Barker wrote a fan-fiction novel about the SS being incredible heroes who will come back to take over the world because the aryans are the master race, and go on to exterminate the non-aryan vermin especially the evil jews.

Fantasy writers must be held to account for their works of fiction!

To do anything else would be madness

Yeah, what the world really needs is a new publisher for Book of Ebon Bindings, and a reprint of Swords & Glory Vol. 1.

The world is crying out for these things right now like it never has before, and without a new publisher, we'll all be on 'the wrong side of history.'

Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 04:42:08 PM


Fantasy writers must be held to account for their works of fiction!

To do anything else would be madness

M.A.R. Barker should be held to account that nothing he wrote after Flamesong was popular enough to be downloaded easily and for free. Because I'd sort of like to read 'Lords of Tsámra' just to see how bad it is, but I refuse to pay more than $0.00.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 04:42:02 PM
  The problem with seeing discussions as a binary, means you have to be on a side.  I can see clear as day that was never a thing.  People like you do all they can to paint a narrative non stop.  People wanting to know more, seem skeptical, etc are not on the side of Nazis.  That is the point of view of a child.

I didn't tell anyone that they had to pick a side. I'm saying, if you picked a side, and it's the Nazi side, you done fucked up. I used the phrase reasonable poles of opinion; people can have opposing views, different degrees of opposing views. You can choose different poles to disagree over. But if you find yourself defending Nazis, you are not good at having opinions.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 04:51:03 PM

I didn't tell anyone that they had to pick a side. I'm saying, if you picked a side, and it's the Nazi side, you done fucked up.

What's your opinion on the literary worth of Flamesong? Or the 'deep role play value' of Book of Ebon Bindings? Or the overall 'gaming experience' presented by Swords & Glory?

I need to know if you're truly on the right side of history here before we can discuss the political worth of Serpent's Walk or whatever the fuck is supposedly being discussed in this thread.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 04:51:03 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 04:42:02 PM
  The problem with seeing discussions as a binary, means you have to be on a side.  I can see clear as day that was never a thing.  People like you do all they can to paint a narrative non stop.  People wanting to know more, seem skeptical, etc are not on the side of Nazis.  That is the point of view of a child.

I didn't tell anyone that they had to pick a side. I'm saying, if you picked a side, and it's the Nazi side, you done fucked up. I used the phrase reasonable poles of opinion; people can have opposing views, different degrees of opposing views. You can choose different poles to disagree over. But if you find yourself defending Nazis, you are not good at having opinions.

  No one defended the guy.  All I saw was some people who did not care to ban a dead dude horrible as he may be.  Others who wanted more info (I suspect because they were fans and wanted the proof to be absolute before they judged).  A couple, who I suspect had a hard time believing he was a nazi wanted to know if he had some other motivation than what appeared obvious.  No one defended him.  At least in no way beyond what would be asking for evidence in court.   No one picked a Nazi side.  You keep saying it as if it happened. 

You pick the Arduin Grimoire side, you on the wrong side of history

Quote from: SHARK on March 21, 2022, 04:34:32 PMThe correct response to this all would have been "I don't care about Barker. Tekumel is great! GTFO."

I don't care about Barker, but Tekumel is a terrible setting. It is so complicated that there are less than ten people on Earth who can actually run it correctly. All these new Nazis that rush to pick up Tekumel will be sorely disappointed.

OTOH, searches for Serpent's Walk are up.

Quote from: yancy on March 21, 2022, 04:29:30 PM
But why is any of this important, or even worth looking into? Was M.A.R. Barker a weirdo and probably a creep? Even just reading his books you know the answer is yes, and that he was probably pretty crazy, and if this is the worst anyone could do, it's not really worse than whatever the fuck he wrote openly.

I know 'writing weird shit about Nazis' is somehow supposed to be worse than 'writing weird shit about sacrificing kids to insect demons in strangely elaborate rituals written with voyeuristic detail,' but I can't really see how or why.

Breaking News: John Norman was a Nazi

1: Its worth looking into because the woke are involved and that makes anything possibly suspect until shown to be not. I do not believe in blindly believing a claim. And I've been guilty of that before myself when I failed to investigate myself.

Bakers writing is actually fairly tame. He draws heavily on historical data and presents it in a surprisingly bland manner. Even the nudity and such is presented in the blandest and mundane ways predominantly. Barker draws well from say John Carter of Mars which does exactly the same. If anything his writing tends to be the exact opposite of weird or even creepy. Least what all I have seen so far which comprises the Adventures series and part of the boxed set that backed it. Which I am still missing parts of I think. So if he was writing about sacrificing kids to demons in lurid grotesque details. I missed it?

2: its not that he wrote a "What if" story. Its that he wrote a "what if" story published by a supremacist group. We'd be in the same conundrum if say Man of Gold had been published by them as well. It puts an unpleasant spin on things. Had he gotten it published by anyone else it would be just one amidst dozens of these "what if" books. But Barker did not.

3: You monster! 

x: The weird thing is that all this feels so at odds with Tekumel which is just short of an anti-white supremacist setting.

LMAO @ anyone trynna blame me for their own stupid posts

I 100% agree with Pundit here, and I NEVER agree with him. Y'all lookin like straight clowns.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 04:42:02 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 04:38:23 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 04:08:53 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 03:56:12 PM
Pundit hasn't called anyone a Nazi.

Some forum posters seem intent on portraying themselves as Nazi sympathizers. Which is a choice, I guess.

  No, they are not portraying that, unless that is what you want to see.  They would have to be pointing out how they agree with things Barker did or wrote on the matter to be that.  I think they are taking being contrarian and skeptical of reporting to the fence, but sympathizer?  No.

If being contrarian puts you on the side of Nazis, you lack an understanding of what two reasonable poles of opinion are.

I am still mulling over Spinachcat's assertion that the white people are the real victims here, and that in light of the revelation that Barker was a Nazi, what we really need is a new publisher for Tekumel.

  The problem with seeing discussions as a binary, means you have to be on a side.  I can see clear as day that was never a thing.  People like you do all they can to paint a narrative non stop.  People wanting to know more, seem skeptical, etc are not on the side of Nazis.  That is the point of view of a child.

While I can see what you're getting at, I would say there is a binary distinction; you either believe in individual human rights or you don't.

I mean, sure there are differences between Nazism, Fascism, Communism, and Oligarchy, but these all boil down to valuing unrestrained political power over emphasizing human rights. The only real difference between them is rhetoric, with anti-semitism being a Nazi favorite. And there's a reason for that, too, I suppose; Nazism worships the ethnic state, and the Jewish diaspora exists as a usually successful community with a unique identity while not having an ethnic state.

Jews drive Nazis nuts because they are literally the glitch in the Matrix which breaks the illusion that Nationalism solves all problems.

Otherwise, I confess almost complete ignorance of Barker's work. That said, I think that the "controversy" around it can't possibly manage to do good. His work has already basically been flushed down the toilet bowl of time. If he was a Nazi, bringing this up has the potential to revive his work for all the wrong reasons. If he wasn't a Nazi, then this is defaming the legacy of a dead man who can't defend himself.

Either way, the correct course of action is to let the legacy of a dead man be. I have no respect for the man--I think he was a frothing moron--but I also have no desire to condone anyone pissing on his grave for the vapid adulation of their peers. Let dead and irrelevant men remain dead and irrelevant.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 05:02:00 PM
  No one defended the guy.  All I saw was some people who did not care to ban a dead dude horrible as he may be.  Others who wanted more info (I suspect because they were fans and wanted the proof to be absolute before they judged).  A couple, who I suspect had a hard time believing he was a nazi wanted to know if he had some other motivation than what appeared obvious.  No one defended him.  At least in no way beyond what would be asking for evidence in court.   No one picked a Nazi side.  You keep saying it as if it happened.

No one defending the guy:

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 20, 2022, 08:54:54 PM
Remember kids, the only allowable bigotry is the non-stop hatred of the White race. For equality!
...
As for MAR Barker, Tekumel truly deserves a resurgence, but that would require a new IP owner and a top author to champion the IP.

C'mon, oggshmash. Just give hatred of non-white peoples a chance, for equality. So that's "as for MAR Barker." Make of that what you will.

Quote from: Fheredin on March 21, 2022, 05:31:27 PM
Either way, the correct course of action is to let the legacy of a dead man be. I have no respect for the man--I think he was a frothing moron--but I also have no desire to condone anyone pissing on his grave for the vapid adulation of their peers. Let dead and irrelevant men remain dead and irrelevant.

I just started delving into my POD copy of Empire of the Petal Throne last year, so for me, this is a personal and immediate challenge. If it's irrelevant to you, so be it. But don't become part of the crowd intent on hiding the ugly truth.

Quote from: Fheredin on March 21, 2022, 05:31:27 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 04:42:02 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 04:38:23 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 04:08:53 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 03:56:12 PM
Pundit hasn't called anyone a Nazi.

Some forum posters seem intent on portraying themselves as Nazi sympathizers. Which is a choice, I guess.

  No, they are not portraying that, unless that is what you want to see.  They would have to be pointing out how they agree with things Barker did or wrote on the matter to be that.  I think they are taking being contrarian and skeptical of reporting to the fence, but sympathizer?  No.

If being contrarian puts you on the side of Nazis, you lack an understanding of what two reasonable poles of opinion are.

I am still mulling over Spinachcat's assertion that the white people are the real victims here, and that in light of the revelation that Barker was a Nazi, what we really need is a new publisher for Tekumel.

  The problem with seeing discussions as a binary, means you have to be on a side.  I can see clear as day that was never a thing.  People like you do all they can to paint a narrative non stop.  People wanting to know more, seem skeptical, etc are not on the side of Nazis.  That is the point of view of a child.

While I can see what you're getting at, I would say there is a binary distinction; you either believe in individual human rights or you don't.

I mean, sure there are differences between Nazism, Fascism, Communism, and Oligarchy, but these all boil down to valuing unrestrained political power over emphasizing human rights. The only real difference between them is rhetoric, with anti-semitism being a Nazi favorite. And there's a reason for that, too, I suppose; Nazism worships the ethnic state, and the Jewish diaspora exists as a usually successful community with a unique identity while not having an ethnic state.

Jews drive Nazis nuts because they are literally the glitch in the Matrix which breaks the illusion that Nationalism solves all problems.

Otherwise, I confess almost complete ignorance of Barker's work. That said, I think that the "controversy" around it can't possibly manage to do good. His work has already basically been flushed down the toilet bowl of time. If he was a Nazi, bringing this up has the potential to revive his work for all the wrong reasons. If he wasn't a Nazi, then this is defaming the legacy of a dead man who can't defend himself.

Either way, the correct course of action is to let the legacy of a dead man be. I have no respect for the man--I think he was a frothing moron--but I also have no desire to condone anyone pissing on his grave for the vapid adulation of their peers. Let dead and irrelevant men remain dead and irrelevant.

  The thing is...there has been NO DISCUSSION on nazism as a binary.  That was my point.  There were people all over the place about how to take the reported info and discussions around that, and they were in several different directions.   I agree that individual rights or not is a binary...but that has not been the topic people have been going back and forth here about, at all.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 05:35:33 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 05:02:00 PM
  No one defended the guy.  All I saw was some people who did not care to ban a dead dude horrible as he may be.  Others who wanted more info (I suspect because they were fans and wanted the proof to be absolute before they judged).  A couple, who I suspect had a hard time believing he was a nazi wanted to know if he had some other motivation than what appeared obvious.  No one defended him.  At least in no way beyond what would be asking for evidence in court.   No one picked a Nazi side.  You keep saying it as if it happened.

No one defending the guy:

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 20, 2022, 08:54:54 PM
Remember kids, the only allowable bigotry is the non-stop hatred of the White race. For equality!
...
As for MAR Barker, Tekumel truly deserves a resurgence, but that would require a new IP owner and a top author to champion the IP.

C'mon, oggshmash. Just give hatred of non-white peoples a chance, for equality. So that's "as for MAR Barker." Make of that what you will.

Quote from: Fheredin on March 21, 2022, 05:31:27 PM
Either way, the correct course of action is to let the legacy of a dead man be. I have no respect for the man--I think he was a frothing moron--but I also have no desire to condone anyone pissing on his grave for the vapid adulation of their peers. Let dead and irrelevant men remain dead and irrelevant.

I just started delving into my POD copy of Empire of the Petal Throne last year, so for me, this is a personal and immediate challenge. If it's irrelevant to you, so be it. But don't become part of the crowd intent on hiding the ugly truth.

   So that was a defense of his Nazi ways?   But sorry you seem to be a actual financial supporter of a nazi.