Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2022, 01:57:14 PM

Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 01:35:32 PM
That is LITERALLY not what you said. You said people that might not agree with your point might be, among other things, Holocaust Deniers. This is your game of insinuation.

That is what he implied when I simply pointed out he went from not knowing much about Barker and Tekumel to being sad about the fall of a legend, and owning a book or two, around five pages later.

But the mask always slips. And now I know he was just projecting his own anti-Asian beliefs and core values on me. I hope he gets help.

I do too. Racism (especially Anti-Asian racism if I'm being a bit self-centered) needs to end. This hobby seems rife with it. Rife I tell you. Hopefully Tubesock will apologize and see the error of his ways, we can move past this.

But alas, I think the stranglehold of White Privilege is too strong in him. I'll be a good ally to those that want help - all he has to do is ask.

Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 01:18:23 PMSeriously - pretend the worst case scenario: The Tekumel Foundation knew everything from the start and hid it.

Then what?

It is the Tekumel Foundation, not the MAR Barker Foundation. The Tekumel Foundation doesn't promote Islam even though Barker was a Muslim. Neither does the foundation promote Nazi-ism.

I don't buy the argument that they are "profiting" off of Barker as they aren't making any money in the first place. They exist solely to promote a fictional game world. That's it. Putting them on the red list is wrong and distorts the entire purpose of why the Woke List was created in the first place.

Wokeness is an ideology that has political, cultural, and economic power. Nazi-ism has none of those things.

I doubt the Tekumel Foundation makes much money. But people like clout. Sometimes they do bad things to hang onto it. Whether you did it for $1 million or just to be the cool Tekumel guys, there is moral weight to the decision.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 02:09:14 PM

Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 01:18:23 PMSeriously - pretend the worst case scenario: The Tekumel Foundation knew everything from the start and hid it.

Then what?

It is the Tekumel Foundation, not the MAR Barker Foundation. The Tekumel Foundation doesn't promote Islam even though Barker was a Muslim. Neither does the foundation promote Nazi-ism.

I don't buy the argument that they are "profiting" off of Barker as they aren't making any money in the first place. They exist solely to promote a fictional game world. That's it. Putting them on the red list is wrong and distorts the entire purpose of why the Woke List was created in the first place.

Wokeness is an ideology that has political, cultural, and economic power. Nazi-ism has none of those things.

I agree.

I need to Steel-Man my own position and take ownership that despitet I'm against my own ideological enemies, the Golden Horde, and admit that  I'm likely descended from them. I'm taking full responsibility like Aaron Paul, for the actions of my genetic ancestors.

I apologize to the millions of Russians, Ukrainians, Kazakstani, Moldovans, and Caucasians, that my ancestors raped, pillaged and extorted for treasure and territory. I take responsibility.

Thank you for listening to me.

Damn... that was morally weighing on me. I feel relieved now.

Okay - Tubesock, and anyone else, your turn. This thread is starting to turn out some good!

Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 01:59:49 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 01:40:42 PM
And so fucking what? I wouldn't take a single dime from a Nazi publisher. Someone willing to write a Nazi book and make money for Nazis is a bad person even if they did it for the lulz.

Stop. And Re-read whats been said on this.

That being that there is a remote possibility that Barker was involved to spy on the enemy as it was. Or as part of some plan to actually subvert them somehow?

Seems unlikely. But it is possible. Hence why we need to investigate.

*FBI Headquarters*

Agent 1: "Dammit, we need someone to infiltrate this group of Holocaust deniers... but who?"

Agent 2: "I know a Muslim with a Pakistani wife..."

Agent 1: "That's BRILLIANT, Ed!"

Agent 2: "What do we need him to do?

Agent 1: "Write books and edit journals for them."

Agent 2: "And give us information that leads to arrests?"

Agent 1: "No, just write books and edit journals."

Agent 2: "..."

Anyone seriously entertaining this scenario needs their head examined lol.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 02:11:37 PM
I doubt the Tekumel Foundation makes much money. But people like clout. Sometimes they do bad things to hang onto it. Whether you did it for $1 million or just to be the cool Tekumel guys, there is moral weight to the decision.

There is only "moral weight" if you feel that people are under a moral obligation to immediately inform the internet if they ever find out that someone they know has a wrong thought. I'd rather not live in a world where that is the standard.

Who were they supposed to inform anyway? Should they have put a warning on their webpage? Taken an ad in the New York Times? Notified the RPG Committee? Deleted their account on DriveThruRPG? The fact is that nothing they could have done would have ever been enough.

Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 02:16:47 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 01:59:49 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 01:40:42 PM
And so fucking what? I wouldn't take a single dime from a Nazi publisher. Someone willing to write a Nazi book and make money for Nazis is a bad person even if they did it for the lulz.

Stop. And Re-read whats been said on this.

That being that there is a remote possibility that Barker was involved to spy on the enemy as it was. Or as part of some plan to actually subvert them somehow?

Seems unlikely. But it is possible. Hence why we need to investigate.

*FBI Headquarters*

Agent 1: "Dammit, we need someone to infiltrate this group of Holocaust deniers... but who?"

Agent 2: "I know a Muslim with a Pakistani wife..."

Agent 1: "That's BRILLIANT, Ed!"

Agent 2: "What do we need him to do?

Agent 1: "Write books and edit journals for them."

Agent 2: "And give us information that leads to arrests?"

Agent 1: "No, just write books and edit journals."

Agent 2: "..."

Anyone seriously entertaining this scenario needs their head examined lol.

  If you think that sounds outlandish, you apparently do not know any FBI agents.  I think that is not what happened, but your example of "outlandish" is divorced from reality of the sorts of dumb shit the FBI gets rolling.

Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:05:29 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 06:17:06 AM
[
It in no way "undermines my position" to condemn real Nazis. It does undermine theirs. And apparently yours, for some reason...

/Sigh okay let's play.

SO how much of a problem IS IT, Pundit? You tell me. This is what Tubesock wants you to answer. So since you want to deflect to me like *I* am the problem let's get to the point of your failure to see you're operating from their framework.

TELL US HOW MUCH OF A PROBLEM IS IT?

Then when you're done telling us how much the Tekumel Foundation is culpable of the thoughts of Barker in other works of fiction - what should be done about it?

Unless you think you're scoring points on me (you're not, I'm pointing out how you are now virtue signaling out of fear of appearing of being a "Nazi sympathizer" to people that don't give a shit, because Barker is no more a Nazi than SJW's are Anti-Nazis). They want YOU to give a shit. And since you do - you're playing their game.

But by all means, lecture me (and the rest of us) how much of an anti-Nazi you are. Then I'm sure he'll find some other hoop for you to jump through. And then shall we stop talking about Tekumel here? Shall we ban Chirine since he played with Barker? etc. etc.

IF NOT - then why are you pontificating at me about it? I don't give a shit about his framing. YOU DO.

(unless you hate Asians... LOLOLOL)

Barker was clearly a very literal Nazi. No one writes for the pre-internet equivalent of Stormfront who is not a FUCKING NAZI.

And it is beyond pathetic to see all you hysterics freaking out that Barker being a Nazi somehow "wins points for the left" and worrying that if you don't try to defend Barker's masturbatory SS-Fanfiction as something other than what it clearly is.

Why the fuck do you give a shit what the Left's "motives" are in all of this, when it is very clear the motives don't change the fucking facts? Are you going to change your principles and start denying facts to "own the libs"? Because that's actually what plays right into their hands.

As for me, I don't give a twopenny fuck what the left thinks; I'm worried about what my grandfather would think. The left will call me a nazi no matter what. The difference is I only go after REAL nazis while they end up providing cover to people who want to defend Nazis by claiming that "when they attack (Obvious Real Nazi) the left are just telling their usual lies like they did about (person who's obviously not a nazi)".

Fuck all of you who are more scared of "liberal tactics" than about condemning a turner-diary level Nazi writer.

Oh I wouldn't put such shenanigans past the FBI, but so far, there isn't anything but hopeful speculation that points in that direction...

Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:10:00 AM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 10:59:25 AM

Imagine being so desperate to excuse anti-Semitism that you look for a reason - any reason - why someone would sit on the board of a Holocaust-denying publication. Other than, y'know, being a Holocaust denier.

I haven't seen cope of this magnitude since Trump lost the election.

Imagine being so desperate to try and label people as being Holocaust deniers that you had to prey upon their fears of being labeled holocaust -deniers by using the bad fiction of a dead game-author to transfer those bad sentiments to their players,

Where did tubesock actually do that?? Or are you so pissing your pants with fear of the libs "scoring" that you're seeing imaginary things now?

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 02:20:39 PM

Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:05:29 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 06:17:06 AM
[
It in no way "undermines my position" to condemn real Nazis. It does undermine theirs. And apparently yours, for some reason...

/Sigh okay let's play.

SO how much of a problem IS IT, Pundit? You tell me. This is what Tubesock wants you to answer. So since you want to deflect to me like *I* am the problem let's get to the point of your failure to see you're operating from their framework.

TELL US HOW MUCH OF A PROBLEM IS IT?

Then when you're done telling us how much the Tekumel Foundation is culpable of the thoughts of Barker in other works of fiction - what should be done about it?

Unless you think you're scoring points on me (you're not, I'm pointing out how you are now virtue signaling out of fear of appearing of being a "Nazi sympathizer" to people that don't give a shit, because Barker is no more a Nazi than SJW's are Anti-Nazis). They want YOU to give a shit. And since you do - you're playing their game.

But by all means, lecture me (and the rest of us) how much of an anti-Nazi you are. Then I'm sure he'll find some other hoop for you to jump through. And then shall we stop talking about Tekumel here? Shall we ban Chirine since he played with Barker? etc. etc.

IF NOT - then why are you pontificating at me about it? I don't give a shit about his framing. YOU DO.

(unless you hate Asians... LOLOLOL)

Barker was clearly a very literal Nazi. No one writes for the pre-internet equivalent of Stormfront who is not a FUCKING NAZI.

And it is beyond pathetic to see all you hysterics freaking out that Barker being a Nazi somehow "wins points for the left" and worrying that if you don't try to defend Barker's masturbatory SS-Fanfiction as something other than what it clearly is.

Why the fuck do you give a shit what the Left's "motives" are in all of this, when it is very clear the motives don't change the fucking facts? Are you going to change your principles and start denying facts to "own the libs"? Because that's actually what plays right into their hands.

As for me, I don't give a twopenny fuck what the left thinks; I'm worried about what my grandfather would think. The left will call me a nazi no matter what. The difference is I only go after REAL nazis while they end up providing cover to people who want to defend Nazis by claiming that "when they attack (Obvious Real Nazi) the left are just telling their usual lies like they did about (person who's obviously not a nazi)".

Fuck all of you who are more scared of "liberal tactics" than about condemning a turner-diary level Nazi writer.

When he's right, he's right.

Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:27:06 AM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 11:17:39 AM
The only person I've labelled a Holocaust denier is Barker. Nice try, though.

Well who are the "you" in your own quote?

Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 11:17:39 AMyou look for a reason - any reason - why someone would sit on the board of a Holocaust-denying publication. Other than, y'know, being a Holocaust denier.

I haven't seen cope of this magnitude since Trump lost the election.

I don't have to try. You have an obvious agenda of trying to label people "Holocaust deniers" from what presumption? That they don't "care enough" as you pretend to about Barker's fiction?

No - you are a disingenuous jackass. Barker is no more a Nazi for being Anti-Semitic, than you're are. Let's play that game with you - why not tell us that all Middle-Eastern people are Nazi's for being Muslim? No one should probably deny Barker is anti-Semitic - but then how anti-Semitic are you? Prove it to *me*.

Because you sound Anti-Asian for speaking to me in those tones. My Truth(tm) is that it appears you're trying to Orientalize me.

What kind of fucking gibberish have you been reduced to?! "barker is no more a nazi for being anti-semitic than you are"?  What about for writing an entire SS-fanfic novel about how the wrong side lost but neo-nazis could still make it right and retake the world? What about being on the board of one of the biggest pre-internet pseudo-academic Nazi journals?

I get that you're scared of the left but becoming a liar because of that is not the way you get over that. You get over that by just being a man.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter on March 21, 2022, 11:31:19 AM
I don't think the TF is making and real profits off their publications. I noticed that they are not even the publisher according to Drivethru (I recall that they were in the past). Been listed since 2005 and a platinum bestseller does not seem to be huge sales and money.

First, I think there's multiple tekumel products in print. Second, they are making money off of all of them. Third, while I doubt the foundation is making a lot of cash, even a single platinum bestseller can represent thousands in total profits.

Quote
The only thing I can see being threatened is a perception of self-importance.

Based on everything we know about the Tekumel Foundation, that alone, even if they were each paying money monthly to keep things up, would probably be enough to justify a long-time cover up for them.  These people always smacked of being absolutely desperate to seem important, and I wouldn't doubt if it was up to the point of trying to help hide a nazi.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 12:14:13 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 06:17:06 AMIt in no way "undermines my position" to condemn real Nazis. It does undermine theirs. And apparently yours, for some reason...

Watching Pundit condemn "real Nazis" is hilarious. His lack of self awareness is staggering.

What the fuck are you actually suggesting? Are you trying to imply Barker isn't a Nazi? Or that SJWs are being honest when they say I am one?

Don't pussyfoot around like a fucking coward, say what you think!