Quote from: Jaeger on March 18, 2022, 02:06:02 PM
The difference here is the founder's son still owns and profits from Judges Guild as far as I know.
Baker has been dead for years.
Lovecraft has been dead for decades.

So I'll be able to buy Wilderlands stuff again when someone decent owns the IP? 

OK I think I understand how it works, what the distinction is - baddies should not profit from RPG stuff, but it's ok if their estate profits once they've passed on. Unless the material itself is bad.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 02:52:53 PM
I don't know why this would bother wokeists anyways. They're all anti-Semitic as fuck when you let them talk for too long.

They have this incredible sense of irony in that they can rail on and on about "right wing anti-semitism" being evil, while two seconds later they're covering for black activists brutally assaulting elderly Jews in NYC and cheering for "palestinian" groups whose stated public goals include the murder of every last Jew in Israel.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 03:12:43 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 02:52:53 PM
I don't know why this would bother wokeists anyways. They're all anti-Semitic as fuck when you let them talk for too long.

They have this incredible sense of irony in that they can rail on and on about "right wing anti-semitism" being evil, while two seconds later they're covering for black activists brutally assaulting elderly Jews in NYC and cheering for "palestinian" groups whose stated public goals include the murder of every last Jew in Israel.

Its just the hierarchy of wokeness, Jewish people are ranked below Black people.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 03:09:17 PM
So the real question here is: did the Tekumel Foundation know about this the entire time and choose to cover it up for their own profit?

More likely they either
A: Didnt mention it due to fear of the woke mob going after them. Which is valid as the SJWs have been targeting Tekumel since nearly the start of the current iteration.
B: Due to its obscurity or just the passage of time and a desire to forget the issue, they forgot about it. Out of sight, out of mind. Or even disbelief this was real. Especially if Barker was really good at keeping this out of the public. I met him way back around when that book was written and Barker never displayed any unusual behavior.
C: They may not have known what to do about it and been locked in indecision. Especially as the woke threat grows. Especially since they push heavily "guilt by association".

Probably A or C. Both were potentially bad ideas if they were aware the SJWs were gunning for them. Because sooner or later this stuff was bound to come to light. But they might not have been aware. Though I find that unlikely. Its not outside the range of probability.
B is possible if Barker was being discreet about his dealings. Which may be the case as no one who gamed with or even worked with him has ever mentioned this that I know of?

Quote from: Jaeger on March 18, 2022, 02:06:02 PMBut If Bakers works are to be purged from elfgame land then everything derived from Lovecraft ought to meet a similar fate.

Unless we are now saying that some types of racism are more vile than others...

Lovecraft's stories and creatures are largely in the public domain and SJWs can profit from them. Hence Lovecraft gets off with a warning.

Tekumel is not, so Barker gets the full cancel treatment.

It's a simple as that.

Hate the Artist, Not the Art.

I can live with that.  I couldn't give 2 shits about Barker's personal hangups and still would buy Tekumel again if I didn't have it already in the same way I still buy Judges Guild stuff if I don't have it.

The art is greater than the artist for it's content and usefulness.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 03:09:17 PM

Quote from: tenbones on March 18, 2022, 01:18:09 PM
So by this standard are all Cthulu products to be put on the "Red List" because of H.P. Lovecrafts bad thoughts?

The transitive qualities of EEEEEVIL!!!

Woo I love this.

That's a stupid comparison.
First, there's no reason in particular why people shouldn't be able to keep enjoying Tekumel if they did before. The setting itself has no ideological aspects to it.
But Barker was not some distant author someone else made an RPG about, like Lovecraft. It was Barker's game. So the closer allegory would not be "should Chaosium be put on the redlist because Lovecraft was a racist", it is "should Chaosium be put on the redlist if we find out the entire production team of the Call of Cthulhu RPG attended weekly klan rallies"?

However, Barker will not profit from his products anymore anyways, he's been dead for a decade.
So the real question here is: did the Tekumel Foundation know about this the entire time and choose to cover it up for their own profit?

It's called sarcasm, dingbat.

This whole thread was created to watch people like you, and everyone else suddenly feel defensive when you shouldn't be.

You're explaining something to someone that does not require it.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 03:09:17 PMSo the real question here is: did the Tekumel Foundation know about this the entire time and choose to cover it up for their own profit?

If you find out that someone you work with said some bad things, are you really morally obligated to broadcast that fact all over the internet immediately?

This ratting out of your friends and family to the state is something I've always condemned Communist regimes for doing.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 03:12:43 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 02:52:53 PM
I don't know why this would bother wokeists anyways. They're all anti-Semitic as fuck when you let them talk for too long.

They have this incredible sense of irony in that they can rail on and on about "right wing anti-semitism" being evil, while two seconds later they're covering for black activists brutally assaulting elderly Jews in NYC and cheering for "palestinian" groups whose stated public goals include the murder of every last Jew in Israel.

This has already been answered - by me - in this thread. Yes, they knew. According to Chirine, when he discovered the manuscript and alerted the Foundation, two members were already aware. And, perhaps less reliably, one member of the Petalheads Discord says that there are several members of Barker's circle of friends who have known for quite some time.



And, no, I don't think the hobby I have engaged in for over four decades is "evil". I take no pleasure in a seminal and legendary figure of the hobby falling from grace. it saddens me, as an admirer of Barker's work and a lifelong gamer. I also feel for his many fans, who feel betrayed by Barker, and then again by the Tekumel Foundation. But whether I enjoy someone's work, or like them as a person, all Holocaust deniers (and their enablers) can get fucked.

IF you agree that Tekumel has nothing to do with Neo-Nazism (however you want to define that)... then why the fuck does it matter if the Tekumel Foundation knew or didn't know about Barker's Bad Ideas in written form elsewhere?

My suggestion is not to accept the framing of your ideological adversaries and play their games.

"Those who play with the devil's toys will be brought by degrees to wield his sword."

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 18, 2022, 05:02:12 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 03:09:17 PMSo the real question here is: did the Tekumel Foundation know about this the entire time and choose to cover it up for their own profit?

If you find out that someone you work with said some bad things, are you really morally obligated to broadcast that fact all over the internet immediately?

This ratting out of your friends and family to the state is something I've always condemned Communist regimes for doing.

I'm pretty sure RPG writers/publishers/contributors are NOT mandatory reporters, despite how much some might want them to be,

You...

Quote from: Tubesock Army
I take no pleasure in a seminal and legendary figure of the hobby falling from grace. it saddens me, as an admirer of Barker's work and a lifelong gamer.

Also you...

Quote from: Tubesock Army
I don't really know that much about Barker or Tekumel, and I don't know enough about the people involved to make a judgment call on its being true or not.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 18, 2022, 05:20:15 PM
You...

Quote from: Tubesock Army
I take no pleasure in a seminal and legendary figure of the hobby falling from grace. it saddens me, as an admirer of Barker's work and a lifelong gamer.

Also you...

Quote from: Tubesock Army
I don't really know that much about Barker or Tekumel, and I don't know enough about the people involved to make a judgment call on its being true or not.

I admire his impact on the hobby, don't know much about him personally. I have a passing familiarity with Tekumel, and even own some EPT stuff. I found it quite interesting, if too dense for my tastes. Given the breadth of Tekumel material available, I don't consider myself to know all that much about it, any more than I consider myself an expert on any game for which I own a book or two, and have read some or all of, but not played. I respect his footprint, as well as the incredible time, effort and detail he put into his work. The two statements are not at odds with one another. Nice try, though.

Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 18, 2022, 05:29:35 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 18, 2022, 05:20:15 PM
You...

Quote from: Tubesock Army
I take no pleasure in a seminal and legendary figure of the hobby falling from grace. it saddens me, as an admirer of Barker's work and a lifelong gamer.

Also you...

Quote from: Tubesock Army
I don't really know that much about Barker or Tekumel, and I don't know enough about the people involved to make a judgment call on its being true or not.

I admire his impact on the hobby, don't know much about him personally. I have a passing familiarity with Tekumel, and even own some EPT stuff. I found it quite interesting, if too dense for my tastes. Given the breadth of Tekumel material available, I don't consider myself to know all that much about it, any more than I consider myself an expert on any game for which I own a book or two, and have read some or all of, but not played. I respect his footprint, as well as the incredible time, effort and detail he put into his work. The two statements are not at odds with one another. Nice try, though.

Ahhh...much clearer now. You don't know that much about Barker or Tekumel. You are sad to see a seminal and legendary figure fall from grace. You own some EPT stuff, a book or two. You do not know much about it. You have read some or all of it. You respect the footprint, time, effort and detail he put into his work. The same work, if we go back to the top, you do not know much about. Roger that.

I draw a distinction between "being aware of/exposed to" and "knowing a lot about". It's cool though, I see that reading comprehension, let alone nuance, is not your strong suit.

If you're mad about nazis being exposed, just say you love nazis. It's not like anyone on this forum's gonna care.