Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 18, 2022, 10:30:59 AM
Unless there was more than one Holocaust-denying Professor Philip Barker from Minneapolis, our boy also sat on the editorial board of a Holocaust-denying periodical for thirteen years.



Probably just a big coincidence, though, right guys?

  You own his stuff or something?  You seem extra butthurt about it.

So by this standard are all Cthulu products to be put on the "Red List" because of H.P. Lovecrafts bad thoughts?

The transitive qualities of EEEEEVIL!!!

Woo I love this.

Quote from: S'mon on March 18, 2022, 07:28:10 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 18, 2022, 04:38:04 AM
This seems at odds with his professed beliefs unless I am mission something here.

This (kind of statement) to me is the weirdest thing - what are those professed beliefs of MAR that are incompatible with Neo-Nazism? The real Nazis always had a very high regard for Islam; Himmler regarded Islam as much superior to Christianity. Islam has often been a vehicle for anti-Semitic (anti-Jewish) beliefs.

huh. Ok. Then yeah. That makes sense then. Well as much sense as people throwing out any common sense can make any sense.
I knew Islam was oft used as a anti-Semitic platform. Just not that the the nazis had any interest. Or at least that some within did.

Still. We do not know that Barker wrote the book. Or that he did not. So far it is still just connecting dots. And without evidence to back it up. The foundations claims he did have to be suspect as well. Companies have admitted to stuff that wasnt true before. But apparently there is a manuscript in their hands so if that is true then...

Sadly it is though looking very unfavourable for Barker.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 18, 2022, 07:34:56 AM

Yeah, most of what we have are claims. The problem is that a lot of those claims sound credible and are coming straight from his foundation, which doesn't benefit from making these claims, and in fact apparently sat on them for at least a decade before bringing it to public light. Supposedly one of his archivists even found the book's manuscript among his things.

Of course the SJW cult is going to be all over this. Problem is they aren't the only ones saying it's true.

If the foundation says they have a manuscript then that changes quite alot.

I have my CENSOR pen ready.
Can anyone point to the page(s) in Empire of the Petal Throne where anti-Semitic or Neo-Nazi views can be found printed, so I can blank them out?

Quote from: S'mon on March 18, 2022, 07:28:10 AM
...
Anyway, if Judges Guild is Red because of the founder's son's trailer park racist sh*tposting, I don't see how Tekumel can not be put in Red also. This seems to me more like a Varg Vikernes type situation of an actual Neo-Nazi-authored RPG.

The difference here is the founder's son still owns and profits from Judges Guild as far as I know.

Baker has been dead for years.

Lovecraft has been dead for decades.

Yes, Bakers Nazi Larping book is not a good look on his legacy...

But he's dead.

What is there to cancel at this point?

I'm not a fan of his setting.

But If Bakers works are to be purged from elfgame land then everything derived from Lovecraft ought to meet a similar fate.

Unless we are now saying that some types of racism are more vile than others...

Quote from: Omega on March 18, 2022, 07:14:07 AM

Quote from: Murphy78 on March 18, 2022, 06:38:54 AM
Are there any actual proof of this?

Well, if Barker was an asshole, too bad for him.

Anyway, I don't see what it have to do with Tekumel.
The world is full of assholes that happens to be good artists or writers. You can buy the game and not the sour closet ideology.

So far. No there is no proof. And the foundation saying he did write it is not proof.

Chirine, a guy who adores tekumel and venerated Barker, saying he found the manuscript in Barker's garage is not enough proof?

The Tekumel Foundation owning it, even though they hate Chirine and have been feuding with him for decades? And even though it will literally ruin them?  That's not enough proof?

Quote from: S'mon on March 18, 2022, 07:28:10 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 18, 2022, 04:38:04 AM
This seems at odds with his professed beliefs unless I am mission something here.

This (kind of statement) to me is the weirdest thing - what are those professed beliefs of MAR that are incompatible with Neo-Nazism? The real Nazis always had a very high regard for Islam; Himmler regarded Islam as much superior to Christianity. Islam has often been a vehicle for anti-Semitic (anti-Jewish) beliefs.

Anyway, if Judges Guild is Red because of the founder's son's trailer park racist sh*tposting, I don't see how Tekumel can not be put in Red also. This seems to me more like a Varg Vikernes type situation of an actual Neo-Nazi-authored RPG.

The differences are: Barker has been dead for a decade, and there's nothing in Tekumel itself that's anti-semitic or racist. Whereas Vikernes is very much alive and his book is an overtly racist RPG.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 18, 2022, 09:22:44 AM

Quote from: S'mon on March 18, 2022, 07:28:10 AMAnyway, if Judges Guild is Red because of the founder's son's trailer park racist sh*tposting, I don't see how Tekumel can not be put in Red also.

And putting Judges Guild on the red list was a mistake as well. This list has just turned into a generic wrongthinker list.

If we are going to put every company on the list if any of their employees, contractors, or owners says anything at any point in their lives that can be construed as racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, anti-Semitic, and whatever new istaphobia they invent in 2022, then you might as well put every company on the red list and save yourself some time.

I don't see any contradiction. Vikernes is on the list for promoting CRT, just like many of the left-wing members of the redlist do.

I don't know why this would bother wokeists anyways. They're all anti-Semitic as fuck when you let them talk for too long.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 02:48:40 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 18, 2022, 07:14:07 AM

Quote from: Murphy78 on March 18, 2022, 06:38:54 AM
Are there any actual proof of this?

Well, if Barker was an asshole, too bad for him.

Anyway, I don't see what it have to do with Tekumel.
The world is full of assholes that happens to be good artists or writers. You can buy the game and not the sour closet ideology.

So far. No there is no proof. And the foundation saying he did write it is not proof.

Chirine, a guy who adores tekumel and venerated Barker, saying he found the manuscript in Barker's garage is not enough proof?

The Tekumel Foundation owning it, even though they hate Chirine and have been feuding with him for decades? And even though it will literally ruin them?  That's not enough proof?

See my comments later about that. An actual manuscript rather than just finger pointing changes quite a bit.
And theres other connections piling up that put things in an even darker light if thats Barker as well. And at this point odds are it is.

Quote from: Jaeger on March 18, 2022, 02:06:02 PM

Quote from: S'mon on March 18, 2022, 07:28:10 AM
...
Anyway, if Judges Guild is Red because of the founder's son's trailer park racist sh*tposting, I don't see how Tekumel can not be put in Red also. This seems to me more like a Varg Vikernes type situation of an actual Neo-Nazi-authored RPG.

The difference here is the founder's son still owns and profits from Judges Guild as far as I know.

Baker has been dead for years.

Lovecraft has been dead for decades.

Yes, Bakers Nazi Larping book is not a good look on his legacy...

But he's dead.

What is there to cancel at this point?

I'm not a fan of his setting.

But If Bakers works are to be purged from elfgame land then everything derived from Lovecraft ought to meet a similar fate.

Unless we are now saying that some types of racism are more vile than others...

I think everyone realizes that Barker is beyond caring. But, even though he is dead, The Tekumel Foundation is still run (and possibly profited from) by people who knew about, and concealed, the truth about Barker for decades. People are justifiably angry.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 18, 2022, 01:17:47 PM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 18, 2022, 10:30:59 AM
Unless there was more than one Holocaust-denying Professor Philip Barker from Minneapolis, our boy also sat on the editorial board of a Holocaust-denying periodical for thirteen years.



Probably just a big coincidence, though, right guys?

  You own his stuff or something?  You seem extra butthurt about it.

No, he just clearly revels in glee at the fall of a legendary figure of the hobby, because like all leftists he thinks the entire hobby is evil.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 02:50:07 PM
The differences are: Barker has been dead for a decade, and there's nothing in Tekumel itself that's anti-semitic or racist. Whereas Vikernes is very much alive and his book is an overtly racist RPG.

If anything is not Tekumel is a bit anti-white supremacist as if I recall right standard white people are just short of extinct? Wasnt there some sort of stigma for having blue eyes for example? I'd have to dig out my Adventures books to see if its in those as well. (Though I think the Adventures set just points you to the boxed set and gives only the bare bones of the setting.)

Quote from: tenbones on March 18, 2022, 01:18:09 PM
So by this standard are all Cthulu products to be put on the "Red List" because of H.P. Lovecrafts bad thoughts?

The transitive qualities of EEEEEVIL!!!

Woo I love this.

That's a stupid comparison.
First, there's no reason in particular why people shouldn't be able to keep enjoying Tekumel if they did before. The setting itself has no ideological aspects to it.
But Barker was not some distant author someone else made an RPG about, like Lovecraft. It was Barker's game. So the closer allegory would not be "should Chaosium be put on the redlist because Lovecraft was a racist", it is "should Chaosium be put on the redlist if we find out the entire production team of the Call of Cthulhu RPG attended weekly klan rallies"?

However, Barker will not profit from his products anymore anyways, he's been dead for a decade.
So the real question here is: did the Tekumel Foundation know about this the entire time and choose to cover it up for their own profit?