According to this reddit post, he did:
https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/tg316v/mar_barker_creator_of_t%C3%A9kumel_and_empire_of_the/
I don't really know that much about Barker or Tekumel, and I don't know enough about the people involved to make a judgment call on its being true or not. Maybe someone else here does.
I know he was a convert to Islam. Seems there is some friction between Islam and Judaism....who knew?
Why are you asking us? LOL
I don't know. Did he?
And am I supposed to care?
Quote from: oggsmash on March 17, 2022, 09:46:59 AM
I know he was a convert to Islam.
In that case, that is a very probable 'yes' right there.
Perhaps this belongs in the TTRPG Consumer Guide thread.
People are not perfect and on our daily news water is wet and grass is green.
What an train wreck some of the comments in the Reddit are " what do you mean an rpg author I liked is not perfect. How dare he not be"
Get over it we are flaws and imperfect as human beings.
Note not a fan of any one who supports anything related to anti-Semitism.
If I worried about every author political leanings I would never read anything.
Quote from: Abraxus on March 17, 2022, 11:02:49 AM
If I worried about every author political leanings I would never read anything.
Yeah, that's how I generally am. But a lot of people do care about the politics of RPG creators, as evidenced in the "TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies".
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/
So this seems like it's relevant. The Tekumel forum post linked has some more context on Serpent's Walk. Pundit doesn't like posting to white supremacy sites, but I see some discussion of Serpent's Walk on Stormfront - below is a sample.
QuoteI bought a used copy of Serpents Walk off Amazon in 2008. The seller wanted $35, a bit pricey for a fictional novel but I could not find it anywhere else, so I paid the $35. I can honestly say it was worth every penny -- one of the best pro-white, NS fictional novels I have ever read! Better than Hunter and The Turner Diaries in my opinion. Although, I thoroughly enjoyed both of those novels as well.
It was not written by Dr. Pierce, but indeed a long-time National Alliance member. There is a distinct difference in writing styles between the two.
Quote from: Abraxus on March 17, 2022, 11:02:49 AM
People are not perfect and on our daily news water is wet and grass is green.
What an train wreck some of the comments in the Reddit are " what do you mean an rpg author I liked is not perfect. How dare he not be"
Get over it we are flaws and imperfect as human beings.
Note not a fan of any one who supports anything related to anti-Semitism.
If I worried about every author political leanings I would never read anything.
This is the forum where a new outrage thread gets made everytime an RPG writer supports (or reportely supports) something in any way leaning liberal/progressive/socialist/whatever abhorrent, so this thread is really just as appropriate as those unless...
Quote from: jhkim on March 17, 2022, 12:28:04 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 17, 2022, 11:02:49 AM
If I worried about every author political leanings I would never read anything.
Yeah, that's how I generally am. But a lot of people do care about the politics of RPG creators, as evidenced in the "TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies".
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/
There's a difference between genuinely carrying about a creator's politics, and refusing to give your money to people not merely having political opinions in their own time, but actively trying to hurt you and work against you back in the real world and/or injecting those views into their work. I believe the latter is more in line with the spirit of that thread than the former.
Many people here strongly disagree with Pedro Pascal's politics, but still praise the Mandalorian (cuz it has nothing to do with his politics).
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 17, 2022, 12:29:12 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 17, 2022, 11:02:49 AM
People are not perfect and on our daily news water is wet and grass is green.
What an train wreck some of the comments in the Reddit are " what do you mean an rpg author I liked is not perfect. How dare he not be"
Get over it we are flaws and imperfect as human beings.
Note not a fan of any one who supports anything related to anti-Semitism.
If I worried about every author political leanings I would never read anything.
This is the forum where a new outrage thread gets made everytime an RPG writer supports (or reportely supports) something in any way leaning liberal/progressive/socialist/whatever abhorrent, so this thread is really just as appropriate as those unless...
See above. Not that I'm claiming this thread is inappropriate somehow or that people don't complain about at least some of this stuff. I still think that it falls under RPG discussions. But false equivalences are a thing.
so? and?
Aren't you the one proclaiming to not hate the art for the artist?
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 17, 2022, 12:53:03 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 17, 2022, 12:28:04 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 17, 2022, 11:02:49 AM
If I worried about every author political leanings I would never read anything.
Yeah, that's how I generally am. But a lot of people do care about the politics of RPG creators, as evidenced in the "TTRPG Guide to Woke Companies".
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/
There's a difference between genuinely carrying about a creator's politics, and refusing to give your money to people not merely having political opinions in their own time, but actively trying to hurt you and work against you back in the real world and/or injecting those views into their work. I believe the latter is more in line with the spirit of that thread than the former.
Many people here strongly disagree with Pedro Pascal's politics, but still praise the Mandalorian (cuz it has nothing to do with his politics).
Some posters may think that way and only judge on content, but I know there are posters who have rejected all new Star Wars work because of the politics of the current creators.
Note that this isn't about Barker's privately held beliefs. It's about his published work by which he actively spread his views. His published books are at least as relevant as, say, social media postings. A lot of the Woke guide is about social media and marketing language - not about the gaming content itself.
Crying shame ain't more people whining about the anti-white stuff from things like ADL and SPLC and MURDER bigotry from BLM. What, some kinds of bigotry okay but not others?
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 17, 2022, 08:50:03 AMhttps://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/tg316v/mar_barker_creator_of_t%C3%A9kumel_and_empire_of_the/
I read that thread but there wasn't in much in the way of concrete evidence other than "It's the publisher of the Turner Diaries" (as if any normal human being knows what that is). Lots of "I skimmed a chapter" and "I googled it." But that's /r/OSR for you. The main reason I avoid association with the OSR.
And the most pro-nazi book I've ever read was written by a jewish dude, Norman Spinrad's The Iron Dream.
Quote from: tenbones on March 17, 2022, 10:27:17 AM
Why are you asking us? LOL
I don't know. Did he?
And am I supposed to care?
Unless I'm grossly mistaken M.A.R. Baker has been dead for years.
Can't get more cancelled than that.
But it's never too late to beat a dead horse.
I'm sure places like Drive-thru, and the various websites carrying on and profiting from his work will pull it all down just like they did for all material related to H.P. Lovecraft's Mythos...
This is absolutely shocking. And the question was whether Barker's heirs, the "tekumel foundation" had any knowledge of it, and brushed it under the carpet?
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 17, 2022, 07:44:18 PM
This is absolutely shocking. And the question was whether Barker's heirs, the "tekumel foundation" had any knowledge of it, and brushed it under the carpet?
It would seem so.
(https://img.fae.ro/14de8e.png)
From the Petalheads Discord:
(https://img.fae.ro/09bf2a.png)
Educated white guy converts to Islam as an adult...and people are shocked he had a few antisemetic thoughts? IME, the late converts trend towards the slightly radical.
But Straight to the red list for him if true I guess.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 17, 2022, 09:06:29 PM
But Straight to the red list for him if true I guess.
Yep.
A major scholarly article on MAR Barker suggests he wrote a pseudonymous novel with "inflammatory political viewpoints":
Quote"Barker released five formal editions of the Empire of the Petal Throne (in 1975, 1976, 1983, 1987, and 2000) as well as about 50 game supplements; Tekumel enthusiasts have also produced variations on the rules, Tekumel encyclopaedias, fanzines, and similar materials.24 Additionally, Barker published five novels set in his game world: The Man of Gold (1984), Flamesong (1987), Lords of Tsamra (2003), Prince of Skulls (2002), and A Death of Kings (2003), as well as a pseudonymous novel (see footnote 25)."
What does Footnote 25 say?
Quote"Discussing this novel posed an ethical dilemma. The work is clearly Barker's – not only does his share his writing style and interests, but it is published in the name of one of his ancestors. (It is also attributed to him in at least one library catalogue.) It refers extensively to the Muslim and South Asian heritage, including a quotation from an eleventh-century Arabic tome on warfare, and dialogue about the esoteric cosmology of Ibn Arabi and the theory of the "divine attributes of majesty and beauty" (asma¯) al-jala¯l wa al-jama¯l). Hence, any discussion of the intersection of Barker's beliefs and writing should include this work. This novel has actually been discussed more extensively in academic literature than his Tekumel novels, and, in my view, the writing is superior. However, the novel explores potentially inflammatory political viewpoints, and it was impressed upon me that it was best to preserve the façade of anonymity. I thus will leave it to the interested reader to dig it up – as Barker himself said, "Dig, dig, dig!"
Source: "Muhammad Abd al-Rahman (Phillip) Barker: Bridging Cultural Divides through Fantasy/ Science-Fiction Role-Playing Games and Fictional Religion", by Amina Inloes in "The Muslim World"
Since the book has been covered in academic literature, I decided to do review of Google Scholar. I found this article:
"The Turner Legacy: The Storied Origins and Enduring Impact of White Nationalism's Deadly Bible," by J.M. Berger, for International Centre for Counter-Terrorism (2016)
That article states:
Quote"In 1991, the National Alliance returned to the dystopian well with Serpent's Walk, by Randolph D. Calverhall, believed by some to be another pseudonym for Pierce, although the book is not attributed to him in his authorized biography.61 Serpent's Walk is a much more ambitious novel than The Turner Diaries, with a heavier focus on science fiction and a much more sophisticated writing style."
Meanwhile, it seems that Randolph Calverhall was an ancestor of MAR Barker:
https://www.geni.com/people/Randulf-de-Calverhall/6000000007151112815
QuoteIt seems probable that at this time, the undertenants shared in the disgrace of their lord, and that one of them, WILLIAM DE CALVERHALL, fled from the north of the county, and reappeared at HALLON under the assumed name of WILLIAM LE BARKER. At all events this person is found in possession of the Manor of Hallon, and was succeeded in the early part of the reign of Edward III. by his son, 'ROGER LE BARKER, who died in the year 1368...
Given:
1) MARB wrote a novel under a pseudonym, named for an ancestor, that had "inflammatory political viewpoints" that has been discussed in academic literature.
2) There is a novel called "Serpent's Walk" written by a "Randolph Calverhall" that is, in the extremity of its Neo-Nazi rhetoric, comparable to the "Turner Diaries", according to the International Centre for Counter-Terrorism.
3) While "Randolph Calverhall" was at first thought to have been the same author as that of the Turner Diaries, it is "much more ambitious" "more sophisticated" "science fiction" than Turner diaries, and the author didn't claim to write it in his biography.
4) A man named "Randolph du Calverhall" was an ancestor of a family named "Barker".
I'd conclude MARB wrote "Serpent's Walk" based on the above, unless the Tekumel Foundation expressly disclaims it and says what his actual book is.
Quote from: amacris on March 17, 2022, 09:43:14 PM
A major scholarly article on MAR Barker suggests he wrote a pseudonymous novel with "inflammatory political viewpoints":
Quote"Barker released five formal editions of the Empire of the Petal Throne (in 1975, 1976, 1983, 1987, and 2000) as well as about 50 game supplements; Tekumel enthusiasts have also produced variations on the rules, Tekumel encyclopaedias, fanzines, and similar materials.24 Additionally, Barker published five novels set in his game world: The Man of Gold (1984), Flamesong (1987), Lords of Tsamra (2003), Prince of Skulls (2002), and A Death of Kings (2003), as well as a pseudonymous novel (see footnote 25)."
What does Footnote 25 say?
Quote"Discussing this novel posed an ethical dilemma. The work is clearly Barker's – not only does his share his writing style and interests, but it is published in the name of one of his ancestors. (It is also attributed to him in at least one library catalogue.) It refers extensively to the Muslim and South Asian heritage, including a quotation from an eleventh-century Arabic tome on warfare, and dialogue about the esoteric cosmology of Ibn Arabi and the theory of the "divine attributes of majesty and beauty" (asma¯) al-jala¯l wa al-jama¯l). Hence, any discussion of the intersection of Barker's beliefs and writing should include this work. This novel has actually been discussed more extensively in academic literature than his Tekumel novels, and, in my view, the writing is superior. However, the novel explores potentially inflammatory political viewpoints, and it was impressed upon me that it was best to preserve the façade of anonymity. I thus will leave it to the interested reader to dig it up – as Barker himself said, "Dig, dig, dig!"
Source: "Muhammad Abd al-Rahman (Phillip) Barker: Bridging Cultural Divides through Fantasy/ Science-Fiction Role-Playing Games and Fictional Religion", by Amina Inloes in "The Muslim World"
Since the book has been covered in academic literature, I decided to do review of Google Scholar. I found this article:
"The Turner Legacy: The Storied Origins and Enduring Impact of White Nationalism's Deadly Bible," by J.M. Berger, for International Centre for Counter-Terrorism (2016)
That article states:
Quote"In 1991, the National Alliance returned to the dystopian well with Serpent's Walk, by Randolph D. Calverhall, believed by some to be another pseudonym for Pierce, although the book is not attributed to him in his authorized biography.61 Serpent's Walk is a much more ambitious novel than The Turner Diaries, with a heavier focus on science fiction and a much more sophisticated writing style."
Meanwhile, it seems that Randolph Calverhall was an ancestor of MAR Barker:
https://www.geni.com/people/Randulf-de-Calverhall/6000000007151112815
QuoteIt seems probable that at this time, the undertenants shared in the disgrace of their lord, and that one of them, WILLIAM DE CALVERHALL, fled from the north of the county, and reappeared at HALLON under the assumed name of WILLIAM LE BARKER. At all events this person is found in possession of the Manor of Hallon, and was succeeded in the early part of the reign of Edward III. by his son, 'ROGER LE BARKER, who died in the year 1368...
Given:
1) MARB wrote a novel under a pseudonym, named for an ancestor, that had "inflammatory political viewpoints" that has been discussed in academic literature.
2) There is a novel called "Serpent's Walk" written by a "Randolph Calverhall" that is, in the extremity of its Neo-Nazi rhetoric, comparable to the "Turner Diaries", according to the International Centre for Counter-Terrorism.
3) While "Randolph Calverhall" was at first thought to have been the same author as that of the Turner Diaries, it is "much more ambitious" "more sophisticated" "science fiction" than Turner diaries, and the author didn't claim to write it in his biography.
4) A man named "Randolph du Calverhall" was an ancestor of a family named "Barker".
I'd conclude MARB wrote "Serpent's Walk" based on the above, unless the Tekumel Foundation expressly disclaims it and says what his actual book is.
Actually, the President of the Tekumel Foundation has confirmed it.
(https://img.fae.ro/cfe5eb.png)
Oh, wow. That's...that, then.
I guess I could have saved myself an hour of Google.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 17, 2022, 09:06:29 PMBut Straight to the red list for him if true I guess.
The guy's dead. What are you actually putting on the red list here?
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 17, 2022, 10:05:35 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 17, 2022, 09:06:29 PMBut Straight to the red list for him if true I guess.
The guy's dead. What are you actually putting on the red list here?
I'd argue that not giving money to the Tekumel Foundation via, say, drivethrurpg (who sells Barker's stuff, at least for now), since they apparently covered this all up for at least a decade, is exactly what the list is ostensibly supposed to do.
Next Tubesock is going to break the news that Gygax wasted all his ADnD money on Hookers and Blow.
Who?
Edit: Oh, the author of Empire of the Petal Throne.
I thought the "red list" was for woke companies. Is anti-Semitisim woke?
Quote from: Trinculoisdead on March 17, 2022, 11:15:55 PM
I thought the "red list" was for woke companies. Is anti-Semitisim woke?
Nope, and often yes.
Quote from: Trinculoisdead on March 17, 2022, 11:15:55 PMI thought the "red list" was for woke companies. Is anti-Semitisim woke?
The red list is for companies whose founders/primary content generators practice politics so objectionable (or, as is apparently the case with the Tekumel Foundation, assist in concealing such politics for their own protection) that people may choose not to reward those companies with their money, even if particular works don't promulgate those politics in their content. In this day and age Wokism accounts for most such politics, but pro-fascist anti-Semitism is still one example of it.
I admit to being of two minds myself. On the one hand, I agree that if this was a sincere expression of Barker's politics (instead of, as has been suggested, intended by Barker as an obscure practical joke on publishers whom he looked down on as dumber than him), then some criticism and censure is due the Foundation for covering it up. On the other hand, Barker himself is ten years dead and the book itself is so obscure I'd wager odds nobody's heard of it except people who were already bigots; besides, if taken to its logical extreme, this position forbids one from ever attending any orchestra or opera troupe again if they ever once played any Wagner (who was a notorious anti-Semite). So the virtue involved in punishing people for the rather understandable desire not to lose their jobs over one man's forgotten outburst of awfulness, which was beyond correction by the time they discovered it anyway, seems provisional to me at best.
Quote from: amacris on March 17, 2022, 10:05:04 PM
I guess I could have saved myself an hour of Google.
Never regret doing your own homework...unless you get it wrong.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 17, 2022, 10:11:08 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 17, 2022, 10:05:35 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 17, 2022, 09:06:29 PMBut Straight to the red list for him if true I guess.
The guy's dead. What are you actually putting on the red list here?
I'd argue that not giving money to the Tekumel Foundation via, say, drivethrurpg (who sells Barker's stuff, at least for now), since they apparently covered this all up for at least a decade, is exactly what the list is ostensibly supposed to do.
Eh. People and organizations have been argued over to the yellow list for not being actively awful, just passively awful.
Ok. So why exactly are the usual suspects calling for Tekumel or the Tekimel Foundation to be attacked?
They did not announce that Barker did something stupid once. Likely for fear of being attacked by the SJW cult. And rightfully so.
Unfortunately this is a damned of you do, damned if you done situation as SJWs are involved and they can just hallucinate a reason to be outraged.
As for Barker. Does this really surprise anyone? Assuming he really wrote the book. And we have no idea if the TF is telling the truth, or at this point just admitting guilt because they dont know? I assume yes Barker did write it though. But could be an unusual coincidence.
I find it more interesting that someone was so determined to dig up dirt on Barker that they had to make the required leaps of logic to connect Barker to an ancestor and then to a book with connected names. But unfortunately. Saw this coming as the SJW cults been gunning for Barker.
As for damning the dead. Instead lets wonder who the hell put these ideas in his head. And what compelled him to write that book. Again, assuming he wrote it. And again, I have to assume yes he did.
Next question is. How anti-Semitic is it? Are we talking relatively low level like Fantasy Wargaming? Or up the scale like that white supremacist game that doesnt deserve to be named.
ADDENDUM: Actually... on reading the notes so far. This reads more like a bunch of assumptions. But no proof? The connections are though very interesting. But "writing style and ideals are similar" does not necessarily mean they are the same. But does help re-inforce the other connections if true.
ADDENDUM 2: Found the book. ahhhh. Well that is... peculiar to say the least.
For the curious.
What Serpent Walks is about is a Nazi SS cell that goes into hiding and begins a long term plan to recover and rise. Coming to power in 2049.
Published in 1991 by National Vanguard who are apparently not nice people at all.
Which begs the question. If Barker wrote this. Then why? This seems at odds with his professed beliefs unless I am mission something here.
Are there any actual proof of this?
Well, if Barker was an asshole, too bad for him.
Anyway, I don't see what it have to do with Tekumel.
The world is full of assholes that happens to be good artists or writers. You can buy the game and not the sour closet ideology.
Quote from: Murphy78 on March 18, 2022, 06:38:54 AM
Are there any actual proof of this?
Well, if Barker was an asshole, too bad for him.
Anyway, I don't see what it have to do with Tekumel.
The world is full of assholes that happens to be good artists or writers. You can buy the game and not the sour closet ideology.
So far. No there is no proof. And the foundation saying he did write it is not proof.
What we have is some some unusual connections, and claimed connections. But nothing concrete. Just some hoop-jumping to connect the name of the author to Barker. And claimed the style and ideals match. But do they? Also the anti-semetic elements in the book make sense considering who the characters are. If you are writing a story about Nazis or descendants of. Then of course they are going to say alot of unpleasant things most likely.
I can see why the publishers picked it up. Considering who they are. But all that means is that a neo-Nazi group liked the book enough to publish it.
This things a cypher. And since its the SJW cult trumping out the 'proof' the accusations become very suspect. But the connections really are funky enough that it is anyones guess at this point.
Quote from: amacris on March 17, 2022, 10:05:04 PM
Oh, wow. That's...that, then.
I guess I could have saved myself an hour of Google.
At least you provided a detailed break down.
This sounds pretty damning and even the foundation is saying it's so. Good thing I never became a fan of Tekumel, I guess.
Quote from: Omega on March 18, 2022, 04:38:04 AM
This seems at odds with his professed beliefs unless I am mission something here.
This (kind of statement) to me is the weirdest thing - what are those professed beliefs of MAR that are incompatible with Neo-Nazism? The real Nazis always had a very high regard for Islam; Himmler regarded Islam as much superior to Christianity. Islam has often been a vehicle for anti-Semitic (anti-Jewish) beliefs.
Anyway, if Judges Guild is Red because of the founder's son's trailer park racist sh*tposting, I don't see how Tekumel can not be put in Red also. This seems to me more like a Varg Vikernes type situation of an actual Neo-Nazi-authored RPG.
Quote from: Omega on March 18, 2022, 07:14:07 AM
Quote from: Murphy78 on March 18, 2022, 06:38:54 AM
Are there any actual proof of this?
Well, if Barker was an asshole, too bad for him.
Anyway, I don't see what it have to do with Tekumel.
The world is full of assholes that happens to be good artists or writers. You can buy the game and not the sour closet ideology.
So far. No there is no proof. And the foundation saying he did write it is not proof.
What we have is some some unusual connections, and claimed connections. But nothing concrete. Just some hoop-jumping to connect the name of the author to Barker. And claimed the style and ideals match. But do they? Also the anti-semetic elements in the book make sense considering who the characters are. If you are writing a story about Nazis or descendants of. Then of course they are going to say alot of unpleasant things most likely.
I can see why the publishers picked it up. Considering who they are. But all that means is that a neo-Nazi group liked the book enough to publish it.
This things a cypher. And since its the SJW cult trumping out the 'proof' the accusations become very suspect. But the connections really are funky enough that it is anyones guess at this point.
Yeah, most of what we have are claims. The problem is that a lot of those claims sound credible and are coming straight from his foundation, which doesn't benefit from making these claims, and in fact apparently sat on them for at least a decade before bringing it to public light. Supposedly one of his archivists even found the book's manuscript among his things.
Of course the SJW cult is going to be all over this. Problem is they aren't the only ones saying it's true.
Quote from: Omega on March 18, 2022, 04:38:04 AM
For the curious.
What Serpent Walks is about is a Nazi SS cell that goes into hiding and begins a long term plan to recover and rise. Coming to power in 2049.
Published in 1991 by National Vanguard who are apparently not nice people at all.
Which begs the question. If Barker wrote this. Then why? This seems at odds with his professed beliefs unless I am mission something here.
Sounds like Marvel's HYDRA.
Quote from: S'mon on March 18, 2022, 07:28:10 AMAnyway, if Judges Guild is Red because of the founder's son's trailer park racist sh*tposting, I don't see how Tekumel can not be put in Red also.
And putting Judges Guild on the red list was a mistake as well. This list has just turned into a generic wrongthinker list.
If we are going to put every company on the list if any of their employees, contractors, or owners says anything at any point in their lives that can be construed as racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, anti-Semitic, and whatever new istaphobia they invent in 2022, then you might as well put every company on the red list and save yourself some time.
Unless there was more than one Holocaust-denying Professor Philip Barker from Minneapolis, our boy also sat on the editorial board of a Holocaust-denying periodical for thirteen years.
(https://img.fae.ro/7e634a.png)
Probably just a big coincidence, though, right guys?
Quote from: S'mon on March 18, 2022, 07:28:10 AM
Anyway, if Judges Guild is Red because of the founder's son's trailer park racist sh*tposting, I don't see how Tekumel can not be put in Red also. This seems to me more like a Varg Vikernes type situation of an actual Neo-Nazi-authored RPG.
The planet where the colonists (and the setting) are descended from Central American and Persian stock? The planet where someone with blue eyes is considered cursed by the gods? That one? Color me skeptical.
The "List" is stupid. I've come full circle on it. Play what you want. Buy what you want.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 07:35:50 PM
Unless I'm grossly mistaken M.A.R. Baker has been dead for years.
Can't get more cancelled than that.
But it's never too late to beat a dead horse.
I'm sure places like Drive-thru, and the various websites carrying on and profiting from his work will pull it all down just like they did for all material related to H.P. Lovecraft's Mythos...
Yep. Just like I can never find anything by MZ Bradley (Deceased), or the Eddings (also RIP). AAMOF, I can't find anything by Rowling or OS Card either. Rushdie (donno his current body temperature)?
(The following link is aimed at the Outrage Brigade, not @Jaeger)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mv09BwHGayM
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 18, 2022, 11:51:35 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 07:35:50 PM
Unless I'm grossly mistaken M.A.R. Baker has been dead for years.
Can't get more cancelled than that.
But it's never too late to beat a dead horse.
I'm sure places like Drive-thru, and the various websites carrying on and profiting from his work will pull it all down just like they did for all material related to H.P. Lovecraft's Mythos...
Yep. Just like I can never find anything by MZ Bradley (Deceased), or the Eddings (also RIP). AAMOF, I can't find anything by Rowling or OS Card either. Rushdie (donno his current body temperature)?
(The following link is aimed at the Outrage Brigade, not @Jaeger)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mv09BwHGayM
Was Eddings non-woke? I hadn't heard anything about his sociopolitical views (and the guy's dead, so it's a little late to complain).
I know the wokeists have been half-assedly trying to beat on HPL for a while, but I suspect it's been somewhat hampered by the very real prospect that the guy was honest-to-God mentally ill, not just 'I hate anyone with a skin tone darker than milk'.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 12:08:55 PM
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 18, 2022, 11:51:35 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 17, 2022, 07:35:50 PM
Unless I'm grossly mistaken M.A.R. Baker has been dead for years.
Can't get more cancelled than that.
But it's never too late to beat a dead horse.
I'm sure places like Drive-thru, and the various websites carrying on and profiting from his work will pull it all down just like they did for all material related to H.P. Lovecraft's Mythos...
Yep. Just like I can never find anything by MZ Bradley (Deceased), or the Eddings (also RIP). AAMOF, I can't find anything by Rowling or OS Card either. Rushdie (donno his current body temperature)?
(The following link is aimed at the Outrage Brigade, not @Jaeger)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mv09BwHGayM
Was Eddings non-woke? I hadn't heard anything about his sociopolitical views (and the guy's dead, so it's a little late to complain).
I know the wokeists have been half-assedly trying to beat on HPL for a while, but I suspect it's been somewhat hampered by the very real prospect that the guy was honest-to-God mentally ill, not just 'I hate anyone with a skin tone darker than milk'.
Don't know the truth of the story, but the Eddings were accused of having a foster child or adoptee taken back by Social Services.
Lovecraft is ...complicated. The man had a horrible childhood, and probably never recovered from the shocks. From the description by people who knew him, I see him as a slightly more charismatic Sheldon Cooper.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 12:08:55 PM
Was Eddings non-woke? I hadn't heard anything about his sociopolitical views (and the guy's dead, so it's a little late to complain).
I know the wokeists have been half-assedly trying to beat on HPL for a while, but I suspect it's been somewhat hampered by the very real prospect that the guy was honest-to-God mentally ill, not just 'I hate anyone with a skin tone darker than milk'.
Eddings did a stint for child abuse.
As for Barker - I'm not sure what to think. The foundation admitted to the neo-nazi book years after they knew about it. That looks suspicious.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 18, 2022, 10:30:59 AM
Unless there was more than one Holocaust-denying Professor Philip Barker from Minneapolis, our boy also sat on the editorial board of a Holocaust-denying periodical for thirteen years.
(https://img.fae.ro/7e634a.png)
Probably just a big coincidence, though, right guys?
You own his stuff or something? You seem extra butthurt about it.
So by this standard are all Cthulu products to be put on the "Red List" because of H.P. Lovecrafts bad thoughts?
The transitive qualities of EEEEEVIL!!!
Woo I love this.
Quote from: S'mon on March 18, 2022, 07:28:10 AM
Quote from: Omega on March 18, 2022, 04:38:04 AM
This seems at odds with his professed beliefs unless I am mission something here.
This (kind of statement) to me is the weirdest thing - what are those professed beliefs of MAR that are incompatible with Neo-Nazism? The real Nazis always had a very high regard for Islam; Himmler regarded Islam as much superior to Christianity. Islam has often been a vehicle for anti-Semitic (anti-Jewish) beliefs.
huh. Ok. Then yeah. That makes sense then. Well as much sense as people throwing out any common sense can make any sense.
I knew Islam was oft used as a anti-Semitic platform. Just not that the the nazis had any interest. Or at least that some within did.
Still. We do not know that Barker wrote the book. Or that he did not. So far it is still just connecting dots. And without evidence to back it up. The foundations claims he did have to be suspect as well. Companies have admitted to stuff that wasnt true before. But apparently there is a manuscript in their hands so if that is true then...
Sadly it is though looking
very unfavourable for Barker.
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 18, 2022, 07:34:56 AM
Yeah, most of what we have are claims. The problem is that a lot of those claims sound credible and are coming straight from his foundation, which doesn't benefit from making these claims, and in fact apparently sat on them for at least a decade before bringing it to public light. Supposedly one of his archivists even found the book's manuscript among his things.
Of course the SJW cult is going to be all over this. Problem is they aren't the only ones saying it's true.
If the foundation says they have a manuscript then that changes quite alot.
I have my CENSOR pen ready.
Can anyone point to the page(s) in Empire of the Petal Throne where anti-Semitic or Neo-Nazi views can be found printed, so I can blank them out?
Quote from: S'mon on March 18, 2022, 07:28:10 AM
...
Anyway, if Judges Guild is Red because of the founder's son's trailer park racist sh*tposting, I don't see how Tekumel can not be put in Red also. This seems to me more like a Varg Vikernes type situation of an actual Neo-Nazi-authored RPG.
The difference here is the founder's son still owns and profits from Judges Guild as far as I know.
Baker has been dead for years.
Lovecraft has been dead for decades.
Yes, Bakers Nazi Larping book is not a good look on his legacy...
But he's dead.
What is there to cancel at this point?
I'm not a fan of his setting.
But If Bakers works are to be purged from elfgame land then everything derived from Lovecraft ought to meet a similar fate.
Unless we are now saying that some types of racism are more vile than others...
Quote from: Omega on March 18, 2022, 07:14:07 AM
Quote from: Murphy78 on March 18, 2022, 06:38:54 AM
Are there any actual proof of this?
Well, if Barker was an asshole, too bad for him.
Anyway, I don't see what it have to do with Tekumel.
The world is full of assholes that happens to be good artists or writers. You can buy the game and not the sour closet ideology.
So far. No there is no proof. And the foundation saying he did write it is not proof.
Chirine, a guy who adores tekumel and venerated Barker, saying he found the manuscript in Barker's garage is not enough proof?
The Tekumel Foundation owning it, even though they hate Chirine and have been feuding with him for decades? And even though it will literally ruin them? That's not enough proof?
Quote from: S'mon on March 18, 2022, 07:28:10 AM
Quote from: Omega on March 18, 2022, 04:38:04 AM
This seems at odds with his professed beliefs unless I am mission something here.
This (kind of statement) to me is the weirdest thing - what are those professed beliefs of MAR that are incompatible with Neo-Nazism? The real Nazis always had a very high regard for Islam; Himmler regarded Islam as much superior to Christianity. Islam has often been a vehicle for anti-Semitic (anti-Jewish) beliefs.
Anyway, if Judges Guild is Red because of the founder's son's trailer park racist sh*tposting, I don't see how Tekumel can not be put in Red also. This seems to me more like a Varg Vikernes type situation of an actual Neo-Nazi-authored RPG.
The differences are: Barker has been dead for a decade, and there's nothing in Tekumel itself that's anti-semitic or racist. Whereas Vikernes is very much alive and his book is an overtly racist RPG.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 18, 2022, 09:22:44 AM
Quote from: S'mon on March 18, 2022, 07:28:10 AMAnyway, if Judges Guild is Red because of the founder's son's trailer park racist sh*tposting, I don't see how Tekumel can not be put in Red also.
And putting Judges Guild on the red list was a mistake as well. This list has just turned into a generic wrongthinker list.
If we are going to put every company on the list if any of their employees, contractors, or owners says anything at any point in their lives that can be construed as racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, anti-Semitic, and whatever new istaphobia they invent in 2022, then you might as well put every company on the red list and save yourself some time.
I don't see any contradiction. Vikernes is on the list for promoting CRT, just like many of the left-wing members of the redlist do.
I don't know why this would bother wokeists anyways. They're all anti-Semitic as fuck when you let them talk for too long.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 02:48:40 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 18, 2022, 07:14:07 AM
Quote from: Murphy78 on March 18, 2022, 06:38:54 AM
Are there any actual proof of this?
Well, if Barker was an asshole, too bad for him.
Anyway, I don't see what it have to do with Tekumel.
The world is full of assholes that happens to be good artists or writers. You can buy the game and not the sour closet ideology.
So far. No there is no proof. And the foundation saying he did write it is not proof.
Chirine, a guy who adores tekumel and venerated Barker, saying he found the manuscript in Barker's garage is not enough proof?
The Tekumel Foundation owning it, even though they hate Chirine and have been feuding with him for decades? And even though it will literally ruin them? That's not enough proof?
See my comments later about that. An actual manuscript rather than just finger pointing changes quite a bit.
And theres other connections piling up that put things in an even darker light if thats Barker as well. And at this point odds are it is.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 18, 2022, 02:06:02 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 18, 2022, 07:28:10 AM
...
Anyway, if Judges Guild is Red because of the founder's son's trailer park racist sh*tposting, I don't see how Tekumel can not be put in Red also. This seems to me more like a Varg Vikernes type situation of an actual Neo-Nazi-authored RPG.
The difference here is the founder's son still owns and profits from Judges Guild as far as I know.
Baker has been dead for years.
Lovecraft has been dead for decades.
Yes, Bakers Nazi Larping book is not a good look on his legacy...
But he's dead.
What is there to cancel at this point?
I'm not a fan of his setting.
But If Bakers works are to be purged from elfgame land then everything derived from Lovecraft ought to meet a similar fate.
Unless we are now saying that some types of racism are more vile than others...
I think everyone realizes that Barker is beyond caring. But, even though he is dead, The Tekumel Foundation is still run (and possibly profited from) by people who knew about, and concealed, the truth about Barker for decades. People are justifiably angry.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 18, 2022, 01:17:47 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 18, 2022, 10:30:59 AM
Unless there was more than one Holocaust-denying Professor Philip Barker from Minneapolis, our boy also sat on the editorial board of a Holocaust-denying periodical for thirteen years.
(https://img.fae.ro/7e634a.png)
Probably just a big coincidence, though, right guys?
You own his stuff or something? You seem extra butthurt about it.
No, he just clearly revels in glee at the fall of a legendary figure of the hobby, because like all leftists he thinks the entire hobby is evil.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 02:50:07 PM
The differences are: Barker has been dead for a decade, and there's nothing in Tekumel itself that's anti-semitic or racist. Whereas Vikernes is very much alive and his book is an overtly racist RPG.
If anything is not Tekumel is a bit anti-white supremacist as if I recall right standard white people are just short of extinct? Wasnt there some sort of stigma for having blue eyes for example? I'd have to dig out my Adventures books to see if its in those as well. (Though I think the Adventures set just points you to the boxed set and gives only the bare bones of the setting.)
Quote from: tenbones on March 18, 2022, 01:18:09 PM
So by this standard are all Cthulu products to be put on the "Red List" because of H.P. Lovecrafts bad thoughts?
The transitive qualities of EEEEEVIL!!!
Woo I love this.
That's a stupid comparison.
First, there's no reason in particular why people shouldn't be able to keep enjoying Tekumel if they did before. The setting itself has no ideological aspects to it.
But Barker was not some distant author someone else made an RPG about, like Lovecraft. It was Barker's game. So the closer allegory would not be "should Chaosium be put on the redlist because Lovecraft was a racist", it is "should Chaosium be put on the redlist if we find out the entire production team of the Call of Cthulhu RPG attended weekly klan rallies"?
However, Barker will not profit from his products anymore anyways, he's been dead for a decade.
So the real question here is: did the Tekumel Foundation know about this the entire time and choose to cover it up for their own profit?
Quote from: Jaeger on March 18, 2022, 02:06:02 PM
The difference here is the founder's son still owns and profits from Judges Guild as far as I know.
Baker has been dead for years.
Lovecraft has been dead for decades.
So I'll be able to buy Wilderlands stuff again when someone decent owns the IP? ;D
OK I think I understand how it works, what the distinction is - baddies should not profit from RPG stuff, but it's ok if their estate profits once they've passed on. Unless the material itself is bad.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 02:52:53 PM
I don't know why this would bother wokeists anyways. They're all anti-Semitic as fuck when you let them talk for too long.
They have this incredible sense of irony in that they can rail on and on about "right wing anti-semitism" being evil, while two seconds later they're covering for black activists brutally assaulting elderly Jews in NYC and cheering for "palestinian" groups whose stated public goals include the murder of every last Jew in Israel.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 03:12:43 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 02:52:53 PM
I don't know why this would bother wokeists anyways. They're all anti-Semitic as fuck when you let them talk for too long.
They have this incredible sense of irony in that they can rail on and on about "right wing anti-semitism" being evil, while two seconds later they're covering for black activists brutally assaulting elderly Jews in NYC and cheering for "palestinian" groups whose stated public goals include the murder of every last Jew in Israel.
Its just the hierarchy of wokeness, Jewish people are ranked below Black people.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 03:09:17 PM
So the real question here is: did the Tekumel Foundation know about this the entire time and choose to cover it up for their own profit?
More likely they either
A: Didnt mention it due to fear of the woke mob going after them. Which is valid as the SJWs have been targeting Tekumel since nearly the start of the current iteration.
B: Due to its obscurity or just the passage of time and a desire to forget the issue, they forgot about it. Out of sight, out of mind. Or even disbelief this was real. Especially if Barker was really good at keeping this out of the public. I met him way back around when that book was written and Barker never displayed any unusual behavior.
C: They may not have known what to do about it and been locked in indecision. Especially as the woke threat grows. Especially since they push heavily "guilt by association".
Probably A or C. Both were potentially bad ideas if they were aware the SJWs were gunning for them. Because sooner or later this stuff was bound to come to light. But they might not have been aware. Though I find that unlikely. Its not outside the range of probability.
B is possible if Barker was being discreet about his dealings. Which may be the case as no one who gamed with or even worked with him has ever mentioned this that I know of?
Quote from: Jaeger on March 18, 2022, 02:06:02 PMBut If Bakers works are to be purged from elfgame land then everything derived from Lovecraft ought to meet a similar fate.
Unless we are now saying that some types of racism are more vile than others...
Lovecraft's stories and creatures are largely in the public domain and SJWs can profit from them. Hence Lovecraft gets off with a warning.
Tekumel is not, so Barker gets the full cancel treatment.
It's a simple as that.
Hate the Artist, Not the Art.
I can live with that. I couldn't give 2 shits about Barker's personal hangups and still would buy Tekumel again if I didn't have it already in the same way I still buy Judges Guild stuff if I don't have it.
The art is greater than the artist for it's content and usefulness.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 03:09:17 PM
Quote from: tenbones on March 18, 2022, 01:18:09 PM
So by this standard are all Cthulu products to be put on the "Red List" because of H.P. Lovecrafts bad thoughts?
The transitive qualities of EEEEEVIL!!!
Woo I love this.
That's a stupid comparison.
First, there's no reason in particular why people shouldn't be able to keep enjoying Tekumel if they did before. The setting itself has no ideological aspects to it.
But Barker was not some distant author someone else made an RPG about, like Lovecraft. It was Barker's game. So the closer allegory would not be "should Chaosium be put on the redlist because Lovecraft was a racist", it is "should Chaosium be put on the redlist if we find out the entire production team of the Call of Cthulhu RPG attended weekly klan rallies"?
However, Barker will not profit from his products anymore anyways, he's been dead for a decade.
So the real question here is: did the Tekumel Foundation know about this the entire time and choose to cover it up for their own profit?
It's called sarcasm, dingbat.
This whole thread was created to watch people like you, and everyone else suddenly feel defensive when you shouldn't be.
You're explaining something to someone that does not require it.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 03:09:17 PMSo the real question here is: did the Tekumel Foundation know about this the entire time and choose to cover it up for their own profit?
If you find out that someone you work with said some bad things, are you really morally obligated to broadcast that fact all over the internet immediately?
This ratting out of your friends and family to the state is something I've always condemned Communist regimes for doing.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 03:12:43 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 02:52:53 PM
I don't know why this would bother wokeists anyways. They're all anti-Semitic as fuck when you let them talk for too long.
They have this incredible sense of irony in that they can rail on and on about "right wing anti-semitism" being evil, while two seconds later they're covering for black activists brutally assaulting elderly Jews in NYC and cheering for "palestinian" groups whose stated public goals include the murder of every last Jew in Israel.
This has already been answered - by me - in this thread. Yes, they knew. According to Chirine, when he discovered the manuscript and alerted the Foundation, two members were already aware. And, perhaps less reliably, one member of the Petalheads Discord says that there are several members of Barker's circle of friends who have known for quite some time.
(https://img.fae.ro/09bf2a.png)
And, no, I don't think the hobby I have engaged in for over four decades is "evil". I take no pleasure in a seminal and legendary figure of the hobby falling from grace. it saddens me, as an admirer of Barker's work and a lifelong gamer. I also feel for his many fans, who feel betrayed by Barker, and then again by the Tekumel Foundation. But whether I enjoy someone's work, or like them as a person, all Holocaust deniers (and their enablers) can get fucked.
IF you agree that Tekumel has nothing to do with Neo-Nazism (however you want to define that)... then why the fuck does it matter if the Tekumel Foundation knew or didn't know about Barker's Bad Ideas in written form elsewhere?
My suggestion is not to accept the framing of your ideological adversaries and play their games.
"Those who play with the devil's toys will be brought by degrees to wield his sword."
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 18, 2022, 05:02:12 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 03:09:17 PMSo the real question here is: did the Tekumel Foundation know about this the entire time and choose to cover it up for their own profit?
If you find out that someone you work with said some bad things, are you really morally obligated to broadcast that fact all over the internet immediately?
This ratting out of your friends and family to the state is something I've always condemned Communist regimes for doing.
I'm pretty sure RPG writers/publishers/contributors are NOT mandatory reporters, despite how much some might want them to be,
You...
Quote from: Tubesock Army
I take no pleasure in a seminal and legendary figure of the hobby falling from grace. it saddens me, as an admirer of Barker's work and a lifelong gamer.
Also you...
Quote from: Tubesock Army
I don't really know that much about Barker or Tekumel, and I don't know enough about the people involved to make a judgment call on its being true or not.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 18, 2022, 05:20:15 PM
You...
Quote from: Tubesock Army
I take no pleasure in a seminal and legendary figure of the hobby falling from grace. it saddens me, as an admirer of Barker's work and a lifelong gamer.
Also you...
Quote from: Tubesock Army
I don't really know that much about Barker or Tekumel, and I don't know enough about the people involved to make a judgment call on its being true or not.
I admire his impact on the hobby, don't know much about him personally. I have a passing familiarity with Tekumel, and even own some EPT stuff. I found it quite interesting, if too dense for my tastes. Given the breadth of Tekumel material available, I don't consider myself to know all that much about it, any more than I consider myself an expert on any game for which I own a book or two, and have read some or all of, but not played. I respect his footprint, as well as the incredible time, effort and detail he put into his work. The two statements are not at odds with one another. Nice try, though.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 18, 2022, 05:29:35 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 18, 2022, 05:20:15 PM
You...
Quote from: Tubesock Army
I take no pleasure in a seminal and legendary figure of the hobby falling from grace. it saddens me, as an admirer of Barker's work and a lifelong gamer.
Also you...
Quote from: Tubesock Army
I don't really know that much about Barker or Tekumel, and I don't know enough about the people involved to make a judgment call on its being true or not.
I admire his impact on the hobby, don't know much about him personally. I have a passing familiarity with Tekumel, and even own some EPT stuff. I found it quite interesting, if too dense for my tastes. Given the breadth of Tekumel material available, I don't consider myself to know all that much about it, any more than I consider myself an expert on any game for which I own a book or two, and have read some or all of, but not played. I respect his footprint, as well as the incredible time, effort and detail he put into his work. The two statements are not at odds with one another. Nice try, though.
Ahhh...much clearer now. You don't know that much about Barker or Tekumel. You are sad to see a seminal and legendary figure fall from grace. You own some EPT stuff, a book or two. You do not know much about it. You have read some or all of it. You respect the footprint, time, effort and detail he put into his work. The same work, if we go back to the top, you do not know much about. Roger that.
I draw a distinction between "being aware of/exposed to" and "knowing a lot about". It's cool though, I see that reading comprehension, let alone nuance, is not your strong suit.
If you're mad about nazis being exposed, just say you love nazis. It's not like anyone on this forum's gonna care.
Quote from: S'mon on March 18, 2022, 03:11:00 PM
...
So I'll be able to buy Wilderlands stuff again when someone decent owns the IP? ;D
...
I think we're talking past each other a bit here.
My digs were at the inconsistency of the wokeosos standards with their newfound outrage at Baker.
hedgehobbit hit the nail on the head far better than me:
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 18, 2022, 04:54:04 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 18, 2022, 02:06:02 PMBut If Bakers works are to be purged from elfgame land then everything derived from Lovecraft ought to meet a similar fate.
Unless we are now saying that some types of racism are more vile than others...
Lovecraft's stories and creatures are largely in the public domain and SJWs can profit from them. Hence Lovecraft gets off with a warning.
Tekumel is not, so Barker gets the full cancel treatment.
It's a simple as that.
The mad on they have for Judges Guild
would be more consistent since that is still owned by a living person.
But when it comes to creators who have passed their sell-by date; they really need to make up their minds...
The only consistency wokeoso's prove themselves to have is that they are perpetually inconsistent.
So one can't even take their hate on for Judges guild seriously. (Pundits post in Reply #61 shows why.)
It is all about what points they can score in the moment, however they can score them.
Tenbones is correct - this is just Tubesock getting his: "Golly, gee, did you know guys..." happy dance on.
As for Wilderlands... I don't care, buy whatever. I certainly can't throw stones.
I own Conan books, still watch Mel Gibson movies, and while I'm
not a fan of her work; J.K. Rowling said nothing wrong.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 18, 2022, 04:30:59 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 03:12:43 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 02:52:53 PM
I don't know why this would bother wokeists anyways. They're all anti-Semitic as fuck when you let them talk for too long.
They have this incredible sense of irony in that they can rail on and on about "right wing anti-semitism" being evil, while two seconds later they're covering for black activists brutally assaulting elderly Jews in NYC and cheering for "palestinian" groups whose stated public goals include the murder of every last Jew in Israel.
Its just the hierarchy of wokeness, Jewish people are ranked below Black people.
Whoopi disagrees with that.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 18, 2022, 06:23:05 PM
I draw a distinction between "being aware of/exposed to" and "knowing a lot about". It's cool though, I see that reading comprehension, let alone nuance, is not your strong suit.
If you're mad about nazis being exposed, just say you love nazis. It's not like anyone on this forum's gonna care.
I missed where he said he was mad about Nazi's being exposed. I did notice where he pointed out you using language that was pretty slimy and deceptive when it is all taken as a whole. You know, I have noticed the super feminist dudes are always very interested in tracking down men behaving badly, then....bam!!! Skeletons come tumbling out of the closet. I hope that does not happen with you and your nazi hunting.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 18, 2022, 07:27:37 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 18, 2022, 06:23:05 PM
I draw a distinction between "being aware of/exposed to" and "knowing a lot about". It's cool though, I see that reading comprehension, let alone nuance, is not your strong suit.
If you're mad about nazis being exposed, just say you love nazis. It's not like anyone on this forum's gonna care.
I missed where he said he was mad about Nazi's being exposed. I did notice where he pointed out you using language that was pretty slimy and deceptive when it is all taken as a whole. You know, I have noticed the super feminist dudes are always very interested in tracking down men behaving badly, then....bam!!! Skeletons come tumbling out of the closet. I hope that does not happen with you and your nazi hunting.
I missed the part where I said anything feminist
Your lack of reading comprehension =/= slimy and deceptive
Greetings!
I don't care what obscure book Barker wrote under some pseudonym, with "allegations" that it was "Politically Problematic". The guy is dead and gone. Meanwhile, he was a giant in the RPG hobby, and contributed greatly to the hobby's intellectual and creative landscape. End of story. Buy his game books if you want. If you don't want to buy his books, oh well. That's fine too. All of this bullshit and crying 35 years and more after he created hi RPG books--and a decade or more after the man has been dead. God knows whenever he published his weird political book. Who cares? It is entirely obscure, ad has few fans, let alone many people that even know about it or have read it.
Having said that, fuck anti-Semitism.
You know what else? Fuck all these Liberal, cock-sucking parasites and grifting jackasses and "Community Activists". All of this bullshit,yes, again, has its roots in Marxism, and Marxist strategies forcorrupting and overthrowing a society and culture. It's all about "Erasing History". These Liberal Marxist jacksses love digging up anything, no matter how obscure, so as to "enlighten" everyone else about how evil and racist everyone has been.
I have news for you. Most everyone, everywhere, fifry years ago was racist and bigoted--about some flavour at any rate--everywhere, and likely everyone. Including people in your neighbirhood, your community, your own family.
And you know what else? Much of the wider world beyond your doorstep are also deeply racist, bigoted, and whatever else. China, Africa, the Middle East, South America, for example. Some also too in Europe and America, though less so than many others. Ultimately, though, who cares? People prefer their own tribe, and don't like other tribes. That's what it boils down to. People change and grow when they feel like it.
AS for the Liberal, cock-sucking crybabies here, instead of sobbing about the terrible wrong-think crimes of HP Lovecraft and Barker, why not focus on the fucking hordes of young college students, often led and supported by their professors, in having public, on-campus rallies where they call for the death and extermination of Jews everywhere, and especially the domination and subjection of the nation of Israel? They also often scream about how Christians are evil as well, and need to also be killed. Furthermore, these scum also screech about how evil capitalism is, and how great and wonderful Communism and Islam are.
How about actually getting angry and worked up about people, right here, right now, in our communities, that are actively working to impoverish, hurt, and oppress Jews and Christians, and garden-variety patriot Capitalists alike? How about getting worked up into a froth about the Liberal whore politicians of "The Squad" that pander to these hordes, and whip them into frenzies, and inspire them to become even more radical, insane, and full of hatred?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Jeez, people, smarten up here! Tenbones is right. This is straight out of Alinsky's Rules for Radicals: "Make the enemy live up to his own book of rules."
What is the most vexing thing (to the left) that this site has done in a long time? The red list of companies. It ended up on websites all over the net, social media, etc. So what does Tubesoock do? Present a situation to try and discredit the list via distortion and doubt. He even mentioned the list while presenting the accusations! He doesn't care about anti-semitism. I guarantee he follows all sorts of people (on the left, of course) who are just as anti-semitic as Barker. He's just trying to sow division.
This is what you gullible dupes need to learn. This isn't a battles of principles. The left has no fucking principles. Just tactics. Stop accepting their framing of the issues and stop believing that they are arguing in good faith. Do you think this same guy is as opposed to present BDS movements as he is some dead guy's book nobody has read? He can't and won't demonstrate the same dedication to"principles" as he demands of you. So stop letting him lead you by the nose. I thought some of you were smarter than that.
As for Tubesock, how about you provide a little context for your "disagreement" with Barker. He was a convert to Islam, which has anti-semitism written directly in its holy books. Do you object to the role Islam played in his anti-semitism? In fact, is Islam right about Jews, the role of women, gays? Why are you focusing on the symptom (Barker) rather than the disease (Islamic teachings)? Should we hold all Islamic writers of RPGs to the same standard as you are Barker?
Folks, watch the dodging start. This whole thread isn't about anti-semitism, its roots, or Barker. It's about attacking the premise of the red games list. And you dolts fell for it...
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 02:50:07 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 18, 2022, 07:28:10 AM
Quote from: Omega on March 18, 2022, 04:38:04 AM
This seems at odds with his professed beliefs unless I am mission something here.
This (kind of statement) to me is the weirdest thing - what are those professed beliefs of MAR that are incompatible with Neo-Nazism? The real Nazis always had a very high regard for Islam; Himmler regarded Islam as much superior to Christianity. Islam has often been a vehicle for anti-Semitic (anti-Jewish) beliefs.
Anyway, if Judges Guild is Red because of the founder's son's trailer park racist sh*tposting, I don't see how Tekumel can not be put in Red also. This seems to me more like a Varg Vikernes type situation of an actual Neo-Nazi-authored RPG.
The differences are: Barker has been dead for a decade, and there's nothing in Tekumel itself that's anti-semitic or racist. Whereas Vikernes is very much alive and his book is an overtly racist RPG.
THIS.
IMHO the list is for either games promoting the ideology or companies/people with anti-consumer practices.
Isn't Tekumel a setting where the whites are seen as leser? Or am I mistaken?
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 18, 2022, 11:26:47 PM
Jeez, people, smarten up here! Tenbones is right. This is straight out of Alinsky's Rules for Radicals: "Make the enemy live up to his own book of rules."
What is the most vexing thing (to the left) that this site has done in a long time? The red list of companies. It ended up on websites all over the net, social media, etc. So what does Tubesoock do? Present a situation to try and discredit the list via distortion and doubt. He even mentioned the list while presenting the accusations! He doesn't care about anti-semitism. I guarantee he follows all sorts of people (on the left, of course) who are just as anti-semitic as Barker. He's just trying to sow division.
This is what you gullible dupes need to learn. This isn't a battles of principles. The left has no fucking principles. Just tactics. Stop accepting their framing of the issues and stop believing that they are arguing in good faith. Do you think this same guy is as opposed to present BDS movements as he is some dead guy's book nobody has read? He can't and won't demonstrate the same dedication to"principles" as he demands of you. So stop letting him lead you by the nose. I thought some of you were smarter than that.
As for Tubesock, how about you provide a little context for your "disagreement" with Barker. He was a convert to Islam, which has anti-semitism written directly in its holy books. Do you object to the role Islam played in his anti-semitism? In fact, is Islam right about Jews, the role of women, gays? Why are you focusing on the symptom (Barker) rather than the disease (Islamic teachings)? Should we hold all Islamic writers of RPGs to the same standard as you are Barker?
Folks, watch the dodging start. This whole thread isn't about anti-semitism, its roots, or Barker. It's about attacking the premise of the red games list. And you dolts fell for it...
Yep, Cocksuck Soyarmy has a long while trying to make us put who HE deems as evul in the list.
But even Varg's game is there BECAUSE the game is racist. Just like Coyote & Crow and other examples.
Point me where in Tekumel is the anti-semitism.
I'm wondering when ya'll are going to just start ignoring a guy who has, "I'M JUST HERE TO LAUGH AT YOU" printed underneath his avatar. 'Cause, ya'know, Tubesock Amy couldn't be any more obvious about his trolling.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 17, 2022, 10:43:48 PM
Next Tubesock is going to break the news that Gygax wasted all his ADnD money on Hookers and Blow.
Well, you say
wasted...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 19, 2022, 01:34:17 AM
IMHO the list is for either games promoting the ideology or companies/people with anti-consumer practices.
If that's the case then Judges Guild should be taken off. Along with any leftist publishers with nasty opinions that aren't expressed in the game.
Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 02:39:26 AM
I'm wondering when ya'll are going to just start ignoring a guy who has, "I'M JUST HERE TO LAUGH AT YOU" printed underneath his avatar. 'Cause, ya'know, Tubesock Amy couldn't be any more obvious about his trolling.
Yeah, it's pretty much self-inflicted misery on both ends. That shit hurts your brain and changes the way it operates. That's why everyone here seems so on edge a lot of the time.
Quote from: S'mon on March 19, 2022, 03:48:41 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 19, 2022, 01:34:17 AM
IMHO the list is for either games promoting the ideology or companies/people with anti-consumer practices.
If that's the case then Judges Guild should be taken off. Along with any leftist publishers with nasty opinions that aren't expressed in the game.
I believe that the bolded part is why they're there (leftist publishers at least, IDK about Judges Guild).
Quote from: SHARK on March 18, 2022, 10:01:27 PM
... Ultimately, though, who cares? People prefer their own tribe, and don't like other tribes. That's what it boils down to. People change and grow when they feel like it.
The methods used to create "The Third Wave" are not limited to "Nazis". Anything can be used to unify and tribalize.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave_(experiment)
Reporting those that don't confirm gives a feeling of power to those that otherwise feel they don't have any.
"Nazi Lover" is such an easy smear.
Quote from: jeff37923 on March 19, 2022, 02:39:26 AM
I'm wondering when ya'll are going to just start ignoring a guy who has, "I'M JUST HERE TO LAUGH AT YOU" printed underneath his avatar. 'Cause, ya'know, Tubesock Amy couldn't be any more obvious about his trolling.
I started ignoring him months ago. He joined the elite group of "people I actually find distasteful enough to bother with the ignore list" that, including him, is all of three entries.
Now if you'd all just stop quoting him (as if his statements had any value), I could finally ignore him entirely.
Quote from: SHARK on March 18, 2022, 10:01:27 PM
Greetings!
I don't care what obscure book Barker wrote under some pseudonym, with "allegations" that it was "Politically Problematic". The guy is dead and gone. Meanwhile, he was a giant in the RPG hobby, and contributed greatly to the hobby's intellectual and creative landscape. End of story.
Unfortunately not end of story as it turns out Barker was backing a hate group and a member of said group. That puts a notable stain on everything hes written irrespective of if its got any of his agenda in it or not.
But as said above. Apparently he was really good at concealing this? This is quite a Jekyll and Hyde situation if so.
But then alot of designers and publishers are really good at hiding their dirty dealings or even bloody skeletons in their closets. And I refuse to do business with these people. I am not going to reward them for being scum and treating other people like dirt. In alot of ways they are far more wretched than the ones that stand out and proudly brag about their hateful acts.
Will I keep playing Adventures on Tekumel when in the mood? Yes. I already bought it and I'll be go to hell if the woke cult is going to tell me to stop. Moreso because they are involved in this mess and that involvement casts doubt on anything uncovered.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 18, 2022, 09:26:58 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 18, 2022, 07:27:37 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 18, 2022, 06:23:05 PM
I draw a distinction between "being aware of/exposed to" and "knowing a lot about". It's cool though, I see that reading comprehension, let alone nuance, is not your strong suit.
If you're mad about nazis being exposed, just say you love nazis. It's not like anyone on this forum's gonna care.
I missed where he said he was mad about Nazi's being exposed. I did notice where he pointed out you using language that was pretty slimy and deceptive when it is all taken as a whole. You know, I have noticed the super feminist dudes are always very interested in tracking down men behaving badly, then....bam!!! Skeletons come tumbling out of the closet. I hope that does not happen with you and your nazi hunting.
I missed the part where I said anything feminist
Your lack of reading comprehension =/= slimy and deceptive
Speaking of reading comprehension...the ability to see a parallel being drawn rather than an explicit statement is beyond some folks. Good luck with those skeletons.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 19, 2022, 09:06:17 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 18, 2022, 09:26:58 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 18, 2022, 07:27:37 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 18, 2022, 06:23:05 PM
I draw a distinction between "being aware of/exposed to" and "knowing a lot about". It's cool though, I see that reading comprehension, let alone nuance, is not your strong suit.
If you're mad about nazis being exposed, just say you love nazis. It's not like anyone on this forum's gonna care.
I missed where he said he was mad about Nazi's being exposed. I did notice where he pointed out you using language that was pretty slimy and deceptive when it is all taken as a whole. You know, I have noticed the super feminist dudes are always very interested in tracking down men behaving badly, then....bam!!! Skeletons come tumbling out of the closet. I hope that does not happen with you and your nazi hunting.
I missed the part where I said anything feminist
Your lack of reading comprehension =/= slimy and deceptive
Speaking of reading comprehension...the ability to see a parallel being drawn rather than an explicit statement is beyond some folks. Good luck with those skeletons.
Keep suckling that hypothetical, nerd.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 19, 2022, 01:34:17 AM
Isn't Tekumel a setting where the whites are seen as leser? Or am I mistaken?
There are not any white people at all, aside from albinos.
From the Tekumel Sourcebook it says the following bits.
QuoteThe original settlers of Tekumel were racially homogeneous. Ancient physical differences had been more or less eradicated and blended together during the centuries between the atomic Armageddon and man's expansion to the stars.
Complexions range from coppery brown to a golden tan. Noses are aquiline or straight ; hair is fine and straight, always a glossy black; and there is relatively little body hair.
Curly or brown-streaked hair is considered unbeautiful, and light-coloured eyes are thought to be a sign of inherent dishonesty.
There are, however, neither blonds nor very dark peoples in this part of Telumel.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 18, 2022, 05:02:12 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 03:09:17 PMSo the real question here is: did the Tekumel Foundation know about this the entire time and choose to cover it up for their own profit?
If you find out that someone you work with said some bad things, are you really morally obligated to broadcast that fact all over the internet immediately?
This ratting out of your friends and family to the state is something I've always condemned Communist regimes for doing.
You are morally obligated if the person in question is a Nazi and the "work with" means you are solely making money from his products, which you now own.
I mean for fucks sake, if it turned out that Barker had actually been affiliated with Al Qaeda and wrote some of their propaganda praising the overthrow of America and the killing of Christian infidels, would you be rushing to his fucking defense?
Quote from: tenbones on March 18, 2022, 05:07:36 PM
IF you agree that Tekumel has nothing to do with Neo-Nazism (however you want to define that)... then why the fuck does it matter if the Tekumel Foundation knew or didn't know about Barker's Bad Ideas in written form elsewhere?
My suggestion is not to accept the framing of your ideological adversaries and play their games.
"Those who play with the devil's toys will be brought by degrees to wield his sword."
Neo-Nazis ARE my "ideological adversaries".
The CRT-Right are no better than the CRT-Left. Barker, the Judges Guild Guy and Varg Vikernes are just as evil as the Swordsfall guy or the Coyote & Crow people. They're all Race-Based Collectivist Totalitarians.
Which is unfortunately all the more reason to not bring this up. Or be locked in indecision. We do not know how much they knew of all this. Or for how long. Especially if Barker was as good at concealing this as it seems.
As said before. Damned if they do, damned if they dont.
This would be a different matter if the foundation was also as bad as Barker. But far as we know. They arent.
Damning them for not dragging out the skeleton in their closet is exactly what the Woke do. Beat on them if they do something wrong. Not for being afraid of the mob. Or just being indecisive about what to do.
Quote from: Omega on March 20, 2022, 01:23:22 PM
Which is unfortunately all the more reason to not bring this up. Or be locked in indecision. We do not know how much they knew of all this. Or for how long. Especially if Barker was as good at concealing this as it seems.
As said before. Damned if they do, damned if they dont.
This would be a different matter if the foundation was also as bad as Barker. But far as we know. They arent.
Damning them for not dragging out the skeleton in their closet is exactly what the Woke do. Beat on them if they do something wrong. Not for being afraid of the mob. Or just being indecisive about what to do.
THEY DID DO SOMETHING WRONG. They distorted history while protecting a Nazi so that they could keep on making money!
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2022, 01:55:01 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 20, 2022, 01:23:22 PM
Which is unfortunately all the more reason to not bring this up. Or be locked in indecision. We do not know how much they knew of all this. Or for how long. Especially if Barker was as good at concealing this as it seems.
As said before. Damned if they do, damned if they dont.
This would be a different matter if the foundation was also as bad as Barker. But far as we know. They arent.
Damning them for not dragging out the skeleton in their closet is exactly what the Woke do. Beat on them if they do something wrong. Not for being afraid of the mob. Or just being indecisive about what to do.
THEY DID DO SOMETHING WRONG. They distorted history while protecting a Nazi so that they could keep on making money!
Greetings!
That is sad and disgusting that they would protect a Nazi.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2022, 12:44:14 AM
Quote from: tenbones on March 18, 2022, 05:07:36 PM
IF you agree that Tekumel has nothing to do with Neo-Nazism (however you want to define that)... then why the fuck does it matter if the Tekumel Foundation knew or didn't know about Barker's Bad Ideas in written form elsewhere?
My suggestion is not to accept the framing of your ideological adversaries and play their games.
"Those who play with the devil's toys will be brought by degrees to wield his sword."
Neo-Nazis ARE my "ideological adversaries".
The CRT-Right are no better than the CRT-Left. Barker, the Judges Guild Guy and Varg Vikernes are just as evil as the Swordsfall guy or the Coyote & Crow people. They're all Race-Based Collectivist Totalitarians.
And so what? By degrees and by inches you're going to engage in whatever they corner you into becoming *because* the ideology of "Neo-Nazis" can be mechanized for *any* belief. Replace (((Tribes))) with whatever fits your fancy - you will be playing the exact same game.
The POINT is you're playing the GAME. And you're doing it right now. If Tekumel is the product of someone that has "Neo-Nazi" thoughts in his dead head, and wrote a work of fiction about it, that happened to be published by like-minded people, you tell me exactly how far in evil is that from Lovecraft's views on blacks, jews or whomever he felt antipathy towards?
If the judgement is based upon degrees of "badness" - then that is arbitrary. That's why this thread exists. It's not to get you discussing with me what those degrees actually are, or even why they matter. ITS TO GET YOU TO PLAY THEIR GAME.
Because now they can simply point at the inconsistency of the application of your beliefs as being arbitrary and therefore no more of value than what they believe: which is NOTHING. The goal is to undermine your position without admitting to any position of their own.
And you do that immediately by defending a principle that exists simultaneously different only by slight degrees THAT NO ONE REALLY GIVES A SHIT ABOUT. That is how they operate.
Meanwhile - you're in the shit-pit slinging it out with bad actors who only want to see you covered with shit. They do not believe or care about what you believe, they do not care about what they say they believe. And you're playing their game.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 18, 2022, 07:22:49 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 18, 2022, 04:30:59 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 03:12:43 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 02:52:53 PM
I don't know why this would bother wokeists anyways. They're all anti-Semitic as fuck when you let them talk for too long.
They have this incredible sense of irony in that they can rail on and on about "right wing anti-semitism" being evil, while two seconds later they're covering for black activists brutally assaulting elderly Jews in NYC and cheering for "palestinian" groups whose stated public goals include the murder of every last Jew in Israel.
Its just the hierarchy of wokeness, Jewish people are ranked below Black people.
Whoopi disagrees with that.
Whoopi think that Jews are more precious then Blacks?
Quote from: Fighterboy on March 19, 2022, 03:41:31 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 17, 2022, 10:43:48 PM
Next Tubesock is going to break the news that Gygax wasted all his ADnD money on Hookers and Blow.
Well, you say wasted...
In the hypothetical it was Tubesock that said wasted
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2022, 01:55:01 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 20, 2022, 01:23:22 PM
Which is unfortunately all the more reason to not bring this up. Or be locked in indecision. We do not know how much they knew of all this. Or for how long. Especially if Barker was as good at concealing this as it seems.
As said before. Damned if they do, damned if they dont.
This would be a different matter if the foundation was also as bad as Barker. But far as we know. They arent.
Damning them for not dragging out the skeleton in their closet is exactly what the Woke do. Beat on them if they do something wrong. Not for being afraid of the mob. Or just being indecisive about what to do.
THEY DID DO SOMETHING WRONG. They distorted history while protecting a Nazi so that they could keep on making money!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip#:~:text=Operation%20Paperclip%20was%20a%20secret,Europe%2C%20between%201945%20and%201959.
So, we going to ban Tekumel and it's publishers from being mentioned on this site because MAR Barker reportedly wrote a piece of pro-Nazi fiction? I wouldn't want to get banned for mentioning a forbidden topic.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 20, 2022, 05:00:07 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 18, 2022, 07:22:49 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 18, 2022, 04:30:59 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 18, 2022, 03:12:43 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2022, 02:52:53 PM
I don't know why this would bother wokeists anyways. They're all anti-Semitic as fuck when you let them talk for too long.
They have this incredible sense of irony in that they can rail on and on about "right wing anti-semitism" being evil, while two seconds later they're covering for black activists brutally assaulting elderly Jews in NYC and cheering for "palestinian" groups whose stated public goals include the murder of every last Jew in Israel.
Its just the hierarchy of wokeness, Jewish people are ranked below Black people.
Whoopi disagrees with that.
Whoopi think that Jews are more precious then Blacks?
She got a suspension for saying something, and it was not about Black people.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 19, 2022, 10:19:07 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 19, 2022, 09:06:17 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 18, 2022, 09:26:58 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 18, 2022, 07:27:37 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 18, 2022, 06:23:05 PM
I draw a distinction between "being aware of/exposed to" and "knowing a lot about". It's cool though, I see that reading comprehension, let alone nuance, is not your strong suit.
If you're mad about nazis being exposed, just say you love nazis. It's not like anyone on this forum's gonna care.
I missed where he said he was mad about Nazi's being exposed. I did notice where he pointed out you using language that was pretty slimy and deceptive when it is all taken as a whole. You know, I have noticed the super feminist dudes are always very interested in tracking down men behaving badly, then....bam!!! Skeletons come tumbling out of the closet. I hope that does not happen with you and your nazi hunting.
I missed the part where I said anything feminist
Your lack of reading comprehension =/= slimy and deceptive
Speaking of reading comprehension...the ability to see a parallel being drawn rather than an explicit statement is beyond some folks. Good luck with those skeletons.
Keep suckling that hypothetical, nerd.
Unlikely to give it a second thought. Keep the nazi hunt going bro, you are changing the world one dead guy at a time.
Hitler remarked he would have preferred the Muslims had won the Battle of Tours (732). He said he thought Islam would have been preferable for the "German character," calling Christianity "flabby." (link for context (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours#Adolf_Hitler_on_the_Battle_of_Tours))
Phillip Barker changed his name to Muhammad Abd-al-Rahman Barker when he converted to Islam.
The Muslim leader defeated at the Battle of Tours was Muhammad Abdul Rahman Al-Ghafiqi.
I think it's likely MAR Barker renamed himself after a statement by Hitler to indicate his agreement.
Remember kids, the only allowable bigotry is the non-stop hatred of the White race. For equality!
Quick, everyone who's non-White, remember you're allowed to have PRIDE in your history and your people. Fuck those honkies!
Of course, as the anti-White movement continues to ramp up in Western civilization, Jews are going to find out they're waaaaaay too pale skinned to dodge the hate of the next generation of SJWs who haven't been properly indoctrinated to shit themselves silly when they hear the words "anti-Semitic" or "Holocaust".
And just like that, the contributions of the Jewish people will be tossed aside by the SJWs in the name of equity! Or diversity! Or inclusion!
Heck, based on the amount of black-on-Asian crime, apparently Asians (especially their women) have already been made honorary honkies!
Whatever.
Clown world is gonna clown.
As for MAR Barker, Tekumel truly deserves a resurgence, but that would require a new IP owner and a top author to champion the IP.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 18, 2022, 11:26:47 PM
Jeez, people, smarten up here! Tenbones is right. This is straight out of Alinsky's Rules for Radicals: "Make the enemy live up to his own book of rules."
What is the most vexing thing (to the left) that this site has done in a long time? The red list of companies. It ended up on websites all over the net, social media, etc. So what does Tubesoock do? Present a situation to try and discredit the list via distortion and doubt. He even mentioned the list while presenting the accusations! He doesn't care about anti-semitism. I guarantee he follows all sorts of people (on the left, of course) who are just as anti-semitic as Barker. He's just trying to sow division.
This is what you gullible dupes need to learn. This isn't a battles of principles. The left has no fucking principles. Just tactics. Stop accepting their framing of the issues and stop believing that they are arguing in good faith. Do you think this same guy is as opposed to present BDS movements as he is some dead guy's book nobody has read? He can't and won't demonstrate the same dedication to"principles" as he demands of you. So stop letting him lead you by the nose. I thought some of you were smarter than that.
As for Tubesock, how about you provide a little context for your "disagreement" with Barker. He was a convert to Islam, which has anti-semitism written directly in its holy books. Do you object to the role Islam played in his anti-semitism? In fact, is Islam right about Jews, the role of women, gays? Why are you focusing on the symptom (Barker) rather than the disease (Islamic teachings)? Should we hold all Islamic writers of RPGs to the same standard as you are Barker?
Folks, watch the dodging start. This whole thread isn't about anti-semitism, its roots, or Barker. It's about attacking the premise of the red games list. And you dolts fell for it...
I'll agree with about half of this. (And for the math-challenged that means I disagree with the other half)
TA is obviously here as a troll. To be fair he's made some actual contributions to nonpolitical RPG topics, but for the most part he's just stirring up trouble. And that's not all bad. It helps keep the righteous energized in opposition to his positions. So he posted his bit of info expecting that many here would reflexively disagree (which is normally safe, as 90%+ of what he posts is drek) in the hopes of sowing confusion and making folks look bad. And the kicker of course, is that what he posted this time appears to be actually, unexpectedly true so he can deliver some smug gotchas. And yes, he's targeting the credibility of this community.
And Eirikrauth is very correct in that arguing with the left in their framework and on their terms is foolish. Even a military novice knows not to let the enemy choose the battlefield. If you want to argue a point, it's wise to reframe it in accordance to your own worldview before doing so, so that the ecology of ideas supporting your thesis reinforces your point rather than detracting from it.
The part I disagree with is that Eirikrauth seems to be arguing that we need to abandon our own principles to combat the SJWs because they ignore their own professed values if they think it will help them win and that gives them an edge. Sincerely believing and following one's own principles is one of the things that makes communities like this one objectively better than the SJW communities. And it attracts quality people. Even if my ideology was congruent to today's SJWs their hypocrisy would repulse me.
So for my own view on the matter, I will not purchase products if that results in supporting the cause of SJW's or their right-wing equivalents, which includes neo-nazis and various other bad actors. Such a purchase can support the cause in two ways, either the media may propound their views, or the funds may go towards supporting the cause. I'm not familiar with Tekumel, but those who are said that it doesn't support nazi themes. And no one has suggested, much less given proof, that the current owners of the IP are supporting such causes. As such I would have no particular qualm with buying their products if such was my inclination, and I don't think they particularly belong on the red list. The association may be uncomfortable for some, but no harm is actually being done.
I actually didn't expect anyone here to disagree that Holocaust denial is bad lmao. Did you?
I also didn't expect the Tekumel Foundation to try to downlplay their knowledge of all of this, but they definitely are.
Hell, Jeff Dee is all but claiming that the former archivist is lying...
(https://img.fae.ro/5adf3b.png)
I'd have posted this is cubesock didn't beat me to it. I am no SJW. The inability of many to not address the issue because of hate for cubesteak shows me some people need to step back and breathe. Y'all are way into killing the messenger while discarding the message. Barker's true colors have come out with the same applying to the Tekumel society who tried covering it up - instead of standing up and telling everyone the professor was fucked in the head and they seek to distance themselves from him, they milked his name for whatever money they could get.
Tekumel is not a Nazi tract. But it's not hard to find white supremacy embedded in the setting.
The inimical enemies are the original natives of the planet, displaced by humans. It's the humans job to stamp them out and complete the colonization process. The enemies aren't evil, per se, they are simply so different that no harmony is possible, so one side must win and the other must perish. I.e. lebensraum.
Orientalism. You don't have to do much digging to find Nazis, colonizers, and others who loved spending time in India, Egypt, Turkey, and so forth. Heck, a bunch of racist Dutch guys colonized South Africa they loved it so much. Loving ethnic color is not the same thing as treating people with respect. In a similar fashion, in the USA, western settlers loved to trade with natives and adopted many of their cultural arts, which didn't stop them from coming back a generation later and wiping them out to the last man, woman, and child if they refused to assimilate.
There are no truly humanlike species on the planet besides humans. All the other alien races are depicted as vastly different, which makes sense from a certain science-fiction viewpoint. By the same token, it reinforces the theme that humans are humans, and no true friendship is really possible between the races. Members of some more acceptable species are able to become *cough* honorary members of human clans. If you know anything about the phrase "honorary Aryan" then I don't have to say any more about that.
So yeah, this is a setting, created by a linguist and wargamer, that borrows heavily from Mesoamerican, Indian, Egyptian, and other histories. It's not Neo-Nazi fic in the sense that Serpent's Walk is. But it is the product of the man. And while previously I would interpreted some of these themes generously, perhaps toward an eye of moral ambiguity, it is now clear to me that the setting to some extent reflects the actual politics of MAR Barker.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on March 20, 2022, 10:35:10 PM
I'd have posted this is cubesock didn't beat me to it. I am no SJW. The inability of many to not address the issue because of hate for cubesteak shows me some people need to step back and breathe. Y'all are way into killing the messenger while discarding the message. Barker's true colors have come out with the same applying to the Tekumel society who tried covering it up - instead of standing up and telling everyone the professor was fucked in the head and they seek to distance themselves from him, they milked his name for whatever money they could get.
If Call of Cthulhu has taught us anything it is that you can make a lot of money off of a dead racist.
Joining this tea pot tempest a bit late, but honestly, I don't give a shit. I'll continue to do the same thing to Tekumel that I've always done, pilfer it for ideas from time to time, without feeling any guilt. The man is 10 years in the ground. I see no evidence that anyone with current publishing rights is funneling money to the klan or the like.
Personally I find it a bit ironic that people are going to raise hell over this but will still gobble up content from various champagne socialists and honest to god communists.
Anyone who is a careful reader and researches Islam is aware of Islam's anti-Semitism (really Islam's anti-Judaism as Arabs are Semites too). As Professor Barker was highly educated and certainly a careful reader (you don't create a world as detailed and deep as Tekumel if you aren't, and you probably don't get a doctorate either), the only plausible conclusion is that he was at least aware of Islam's hostility towards Jews and that at a minimum he was OK with it.
And that is giving him the benefit of the doubt. Not because he converted to Islam he had an extreme hatred of Jews - maybe he didn't. But an extreme hatred of Jews certainly didn't bother him enough for him to not convert to Islam.
So is this claim that he wrote something like Turner Diaries, but targeting Jews, is not inconsistent at all. When I read the headline I wasn't surprised in the least. Is the evidence conclusive? No.
But if anti-Semitism is something that bothers you, and you don't like people passively accepting anti-Semitism either - does it make sense to boycott Tekumel? I would say yes. This is purely entertainment, and nobody has any right to your money. The threshold of evidence to boycott based on your personal beliefs doesn't have to be very high.
Should Tekumel be on the red list? It doesn't matter if it's red or yellow, but it's definitely noteworthy, and people should be aware of it and then be able to decide for themselves.
Quote from: tenbones on March 20, 2022, 04:11:28 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2022, 12:44:14 AM
Quote from: tenbones on March 18, 2022, 05:07:36 PM
IF you agree that Tekumel has nothing to do with Neo-Nazism (however you want to define that)... then why the fuck does it matter if the Tekumel Foundation knew or didn't know about Barker's Bad Ideas in written form elsewhere?
My suggestion is not to accept the framing of your ideological adversaries and play their games.
"Those who play with the devil's toys will be brought by degrees to wield his sword."
Neo-Nazis ARE my "ideological adversaries".
The CRT-Right are no better than the CRT-Left. Barker, the Judges Guild Guy and Varg Vikernes are just as evil as the Swordsfall guy or the Coyote & Crow people. They're all Race-Based Collectivist Totalitarians.
And so what? By degrees and by inches you're going to engage in whatever they corner you into becoming *because* the ideology of "Neo-Nazis" can be mechanized for *any* belief. Replace (((Tribes))) with whatever fits your fancy - you will be playing the exact same game.
The POINT is you're playing the GAME. And you're doing it right now. If Tekumel is the product of someone that has "Neo-Nazi" thoughts in his dead head, and wrote a work of fiction about it, that happened to be published by like-minded people, you tell me exactly how far in evil is that from Lovecraft's views on blacks, jews or whomever he felt antipathy towards?
If the judgement is based upon degrees of "badness" - then that is arbitrary. That's why this thread exists. It's not to get you discussing with me what those degrees actually are, or even why they matter. ITS TO GET YOU TO PLAY THEIR GAME.
Because now they can simply point at the inconsistency of the application of your beliefs as being arbitrary and therefore no more of value than what they believe: which is NOTHING. The goal is to undermine your position without admitting to any position of their own.
And you do that immediately by defending a principle that exists simultaneously different only by slight degrees THAT NO ONE REALLY GIVES A SHIT ABOUT. That is how they operate.
Meanwhile - you're in the shit-pit slinging it out with bad actors who only want to see you covered with shit. They do not believe or care about what you believe, they do not care about what they say they believe. And you're playing their game.
It in no way "undermines my position" to condemn real Nazis. It does undermine theirs. And apparently yours, for some reason...
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 20, 2022, 06:36:58 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2022, 01:55:01 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 20, 2022, 01:23:22 PM
Which is unfortunately all the more reason to not bring this up. Or be locked in indecision. We do not know how much they knew of all this. Or for how long. Especially if Barker was as good at concealing this as it seems.
As said before. Damned if they do, damned if they dont.
This would be a different matter if the foundation was also as bad as Barker. But far as we know. They arent.
Damning them for not dragging out the skeleton in their closet is exactly what the Woke do. Beat on them if they do something wrong. Not for being afraid of the mob. Or just being indecisive about what to do.
THEY DID DO SOMETHING WRONG. They distorted history while protecting a Nazi so that they could keep on making money!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip#:~:text=Operation%20Paperclip%20was%20a%20secret,Europe%2C%20between%201945%20and%201959.
So, we going to ban Tekumel and it's publishers from being mentioned on this site because MAR Barker reportedly wrote a piece of pro-Nazi fiction? I wouldn't want to get banned for mentioning a forbidden topic.
Barker wasn't working on the space program; he was writing weird RPG books while actively concealing that he was also writing nazi novels and acting as an "editor" for their magazine of revisionist holocaust-denying history.
And the Tekumel Foundation, who claim not to be Nazis, hid that fact so they could keep profiting off his works.
The problem is...
We know he wrote The Serpent Walks, but we don't know WHY.
I've seen people who have seen excerpts without reading the whole say it didn't seem satirical to them. Well to be brutally frank, I've studied enough literature to know that frequently, grasping satire requires a certain level of intelligence and education. If you're going to go "intent of the author" hunting, you also have to take into account his relationship with his father, which Chirine says was not amicable at all, and his father held some Nazi-ish views.
We know he sat on the Editorial Advisory Committee of that Journal, but we don't know how active he was.
I know several professors who sit on various boards and committees and don't do a thing, ever. It looks good for the Journal to have more letters attached to the people on "Advisory" Committees and also looks good for the professor's CV when they write a book.
Unfortunately, "Anti-Semitic" has no actual value as a descriptor, these days, it's meaningless.
Concern over the actions of Israel is Anti-Semitic.
Saying that the Nazi's also wanted to clear Poland of all the Poles, and get rid of other groups besides Jews is Anti-Semitic.
He's a Muslim, married to a Pakistani, specializing in Southeast Asian cultures and languages. Unless the whole thing was about trying to find the original Aryans (of which I've seen zero evidence), such studies don't scream "Nazi" to me.
Was he so fed up by his father's bullshit that he wrote a better book than anyone else out of that arena to prove himself superior? From the shenanigans Chirine said he used to get up to, this seems extremely probable.
As a Muslim, was he so concerned with the narrative of Israel/Judaism as hero/victim that he sat on the committee of a historical review journal so he could fact check what was being put out? Again, this seems extremely probable.
If he was an anti-semite in the Bob Bledsaw mold (which is what people will want to cast him in), then that will have to come out somewhere academically or in correspondence. I'm sure we'll be seeing micro-slices of Barker's life now(if enough people care), so we'll know for sure eventually.
I do not see how it can not just boil down to it goes on the red list. I also understand the list is a guide, not a code of laws or ethics. I have not looked over the list in a while, but I am certain I have a few things from the red on the bookshelf, and likely a few after I knew they were in the red. Yes, I do not love giving money to people who profess to "hate" me. I also know not a single one of the queefs on the red list would ever lift a finger to do me harm in person, or to anyone else they "hate". So I am OK with some coloring outside the lines for some things I buy, the vast majority will be buys made where I have little or no idea as to the author's political hates or loves, and honestly, if it is a product I have great interest in, there small chance I am going to check those things before I buy the product.
I would have to say the list doesn't mean much for me (I am older, and like most of the posters on this forum, fall into the GM/collector side of the player base of RPGs) and the only time I make a conscious decision to cut a publisher/artist off from me every buying things is when they go nuts and put out insanity so often I can not help but know their thoughts (that should IMO stay private) and they piss me off. I have no interest digging around for proof on their standing, or knowing about the one time they said that one thing. It is when the stuff turns into literal activist movements...we are done.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 20, 2022, 10:07:07 PM
Hell, Jeff Dee is all but claiming that the former archivist is lying...
(https://img.fae.ro/5adf3b.png)
Hey you lay off Jeff, he's in shock dude!
QuoteAnd the Tekumel Foundation, who claim not to be Nazis, hid that fact so they could keep profiting off his works.
You think the TF is a profit making company? Lol.
Quote from: crkrueger on March 21, 2022, 09:39:17 AM
The problem is...
We know he wrote The Serpent Walks, but we don't know WHY.
I've seen people who have seen excerpts without reading the whole say it didn't seem satirical to them. Well to be brutally frank, I've studied enough literature to know that frequently, grasping satire requires a certain level of intelligence and education. If you're going to go "intent of the author" hunting, you also have to take into account his relationship with his father, which Chirine says was not amicable at all, and his father held some Nazi-ish views.
We know he sat on the Editorial Advisory Committee of that Journal, but we don't know how active he was.
I know several professors who sit on various boards and committees and don't do a thing, ever. It looks good for the Journal to have more letters attached to the people on "Advisory" Committees and also looks good for the professor's CV when they write a book.
Unfortunately, "Anti-Semitic" has no actual value as a descriptor, these days, it's meaningless.
Concern over the actions of Israel is Anti-Semitic.
Saying that the Nazi's also wanted to clear Poland of all the Poles, and get rid of other groups besides Jews is Anti-Semitic.
He's a Muslim, married to a Pakistani, specializing in Southeast Asian cultures and languages. Unless the whole thing was about trying to find the original Aryans (of which I've seen zero evidence), such studies don't scream "Nazi" to me.
Was he so fed up by his father's bullshit that he wrote a better book than anyone else out of that arena to prove himself superior? From the shenanigans Chirine said he used to get up to, this seems extremely probable.
As a Muslim, was he so concerned with the narrative of Israel/Judaism as hero/victim that he sat on the committee of a historical review journal so he could fact check what was being put out? Again, this seems extremely probable.
If he was an anti-semite in the Bob Bledsaw mold (which is what people will want to cast him in), then that will have to come out somewhere academically or in correspondence. I'm sure we'll be seeing micro-slices of Barker's life now(if enough people care), so we'll know for sure eventually.
Imagine being so desperate to excuse anti-Semitism that you look for a reason - any reason - why someone would sit on the board of a Holocaust-denying publication. Other than, y'know, being a Holocaust denier.
I haven't seen cope of this magnitude since Trump lost the election.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 03:10:07 AM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on March 20, 2022, 10:35:10 PM
I'd have posted this is cubesock didn't beat me to it. I am no SJW. The inability of many to not address the issue because of hate for cubesteak shows me some people need to step back and breathe. Y'all are way into killing the messenger while discarding the message. Barker's true colors have come out with the same applying to the Tekumel society who tried covering it up - instead of standing up and telling everyone the professor was fucked in the head and they seek to distance themselves from him, they milked his name for whatever money they could get.
If Call of Cthulhu has taught us anything it is that you can make a lot of money off of a dead racist.
Touche
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 06:17:06 AM
[
It in no way "undermines my position" to condemn real Nazis. It does undermine theirs. And apparently yours, for some reason...
/Sigh okay let's play.
SO how much of a problem IS IT, Pundit? You tell me. This is what Tubesock wants you to answer. So since you want to deflect to me like *I* am the problem let's get to the point of your failure to see you're operating from their framework.
TELL US HOW MUCH OF A PROBLEM IS IT?
Then when you're done telling us how much the Tekumel Foundation is culpable of the thoughts of Barker in other works of fiction - what should be done about it?
Unless you think you're scoring points on me (you're not, I'm pointing out how you are now virtue signaling out of fear of appearing of being a "Nazi sympathizer" to people that don't give a shit, because Barker is no more a Nazi than SJW's are Anti-Nazis). They want YOU to give a shit. And since you do - you're playing their game.
But by all means, lecture me (and the rest of us) how much of an anti-Nazi you are. Then I'm sure he'll find some other hoop for you to jump through. And then shall we stop talking about Tekumel here? Shall we ban Chirine since he played with Barker? etc. etc.
IF NOT - then why are you pontificating at me about it? I don't give a shit about his framing. YOU DO.
(unless you hate Asians... LOLOLOL)
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 10:59:25 AM
Imagine being so desperate to excuse anti-Semitism that you look for a reason - any reason - why someone would sit on the board of a Holocaust-denying publication. Other than, y'know, being a Holocaust denier.
I haven't seen cope of this magnitude since Trump lost the election.
Imagine being so desperate to try and label people as being Holocaust deniers that you had to prey upon their fears of being labeled holocaust -deniers by using the bad fiction of a dead game-author to transfer those bad sentiments to their players, by posting one's false horror at those sentiments on a forum for unspoken agendas.
Imagine the non-surprise at people falling for it.
The only person I've labelled a Holocaust denier is Barker. Nice try, though.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 11:17:39 AM
The only person I've labelled a Holocaust denier is Barker. Nice try, though.
Well who are the "you" in your own quote?
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 11:17:39 AMyou look for a reason - any reason - why someone would sit on the board of a Holocaust-denying publication. Other than, y'know, being a Holocaust denier.
I haven't seen cope of this magnitude since Trump lost the election.
I don't have to try. You have an obvious agenda of trying to label people "Holocaust deniers" from what presumption? That they don't "care enough" as you pretend to about Barker's fiction?
No - you are a disingenuous jackass. Barker is no more a Nazi for being Anti-Semitic, than you're are. Let's play that game with you - why not tell us that all Middle-Eastern people are Nazi's for being Muslim? No one should probably deny Barker is anti-Semitic - but then how anti-Semitic are you? Prove it to *me*.
Because you sound Anti-Asian for speaking to me in those tones. My Truth(tm) is that it appears you're trying to Orientalize me.
Excusing Holocaust denial doesn't necessarily make somebody one (though they might be, but that would not be the only possible reason for excusing such behavior). Sorry for your lack of reading comprehension. I have not called anyone a Holocaust denier here except for Barker. If I thought anyone else in this thread was denying the Holocaust, I would plainly say so.
Not all Muslims are anti-Semites, this shouldn't even need saying lol.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 10:36:48 AM
I do not see how it can not just boil down to it goes on the red list.
Same here. The defenses being mounted in the thread seem to be exactly the same as SJ types defending Woke games. Barker would be red if he was still around, and the Tekumel Foundation is red for covering it up and profiting from it. Open and shut.
That doesn't mean you can't still like his other stuff, nor does it erase his contributions to the hobby. But it does add a stain.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 11:28:46 AM
Excusing Holocaust denial doesn't necessarily make somebody one. Sorry for your lack of reading comprehension. I have not called anyone a Holocaust denier here except for Barker. If I thought anyone else in this thread was denying the Holocaust, I would plainly say so.
Then you're denying your own statement? Who is the YOU? This sounds like something a racist would say to try to gaslight poor POC's and white people that don't' understand their own privilege's. Are you implying Asians can't understand English?
That's something exactly that a white-supremacist would say. It's problematic.
I don't think the TF is making and real profits off their publications. I noticed that they are not even the publisher according to Drivethru (I recall that they were in the past). Been listed since 2005 and a platinum bestseller does not seem to be huge sales and money.
The main impetus for keeping the game going has been from people that played in the original campaigns and knew the professor. Having met several of them over the years, it seems to be based on nostalgia and memories of friendship from those times.
The only thing I can see being threatened is a perception of self-importance. The same I have seen from others who participated in original games from the original authors. For many people, especially in our hobby, this is something they really would cling to. MAR Barker's original letters and such have been looked through and published. I find it a real leap to go to them having Neo-Nazi letters and just burying them. I certainly find the "we only had 2.5 years" claim to be funny, but just look at the publishing track record of the TF. Everything takes forever and they even use the older style and horrible typesetting to be as pure as possible. Super easy to assume in good faith that this time lag is normal for the glacial pace they move at.
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:31:11 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 11:28:46 AM
Excusing Holocaust denial doesn't necessarily make somebody one. Sorry for your lack of reading comprehension. I have not called anyone a Holocaust denier here except for Barker. If I thought anyone else in this thread was denying the Holocaust, I would plainly say so.
So you're then you're denying your own statement? Who is the YOU? This sounds like something a racist would say to try to gaslight poor POC's and white people that don't' understand their own privilege's. Are you implying Asians can't understand English?
That's something exactly that a white-supremacist would say. It's problematic.
You're really reaching here. My statement said someone was desperate to excuse Holocaust denial, not that they were a Holocaust denier. It's quite clear, despite your frenzied attempts to obfuscate it by flooding the zone with shit.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 11:33:05 AM
You're really reaching here. My statement said someone was desperate to excuse Holocaust denial, not that they were a Holocaust denier. It's quite clear, despite your frenzied attempts to obfuscate it by flooding the zone with shit.
That's a blanket statement of EVERYONE that doesn't agree with your claim. That could be everyone here, no? And you said I was too stupid to understand what you were saying, now you're backtracking on trying to explain what you *really* meant - so clearly my understanding of what you were saying has some merit?
You are *def-facto* calling people that don't agree with you - Holocaust Deniers.
It would appear that since you think I'm stupid, by the same logic you apply to Barker's writing and anything he's written, those that don't agree with you, being Holocaust deniers, you at minimum think Asians are stupid (since you're clearly backtracking) And Muslims must be Anti-Semitic because they practice the same religion that practiced predominately by large swath of anti-Semites, and transitive properties of evil which you're ascribing, goes both ways. It might be you that is the racist bigot you're pretending everyone else is?
Is that possible?
As for my opinion on the book that came to light, I am not going to burn my existing purchases, but I certainly am not going to make more or participate in games.
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:35:40 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 11:33:05 AM
You're really reaching here. My statement said someone was desperate to excuse Holocaust denial, not that they were a Holocaust denier. It's quite clear, despite your frenzied attempts to obfuscate it by flooding the zone with shit.
That's a blanket statement of EVERYONE that doesn't agree with your claim. That could be everyone here, no? And you said I was too stupid to understand what you were saying, now you're backtracking on trying to explain what you *really* meant - so clearly my understanding of what you were saying has some merit?
You are *def-facto* calling people that don't agree with you - Holocaust Deniers.
No matter how desperately you type this, that doesn't make it true. Sorry, lil' fella. Also, my original statement was quite clearly aimed at CRKreuger. Maybe don't post until AFTER you've had your morning coffee?
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 11:37:00 AM
No matter how desperately you type this, that doesn't make it true. Sorry, lil' fella. Also, my original statement was quite clearly aimed at CRKreuger. Maybe don't post until AFTER you've had your morning coffee?
Oh, so CRKreugur might be the Holocaust Denier? Then I wasn't wrong - you *weren't* talking about Barker ONLY.
Where is my apology then?
Which is it? You keep flip-flopping. Which makes you more suspect as the White Supremacist. Because that's exactly what a White Supremacist would do.
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:42:58 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 11:37:00 AM
No matter how desperately you type this, that doesn't make it true. Sorry, lil' fella. Also, my original statement was quite clearly aimed at CRKreuger. Maybe don't post until AFTER you've had your morning coffee?
Oh, so CRKreugur might be the Holocaust Denier? Then I wasn't wrong - you *weren't* talking about Barker ONLY.
Where is my apology then?
Up your ass, next to your head, apparently. Because, for the third or fourth time, I never said CRKrueger was a Holocaust denier, only that he was desperate to excuse Barker's Holocaust denial.
Interesting side note regarding authors and bad takes. Mein Kampf is still sold in the USA, and for years Houghton Mifflin brought in lots of money in sales (they say the profits were all donated to charity...but I didnt check the books, so who knows). So should they be boycotted? Should the current version of the book (I think published through createspace) have its publisher boycotted?
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 11:44:13 AM
Up your ass, next to your head, apparently. Because, for the third or fourth time, I never said CRKrueger was a Holocaust denier, only that he was desperate to excuse Barker's Holocaust denial.
Remember that part where you said I had no reading comprehension? Why would we believe someone that can't even get their own story right? Then, besmirch an entire forum, and single out me, the Lone Asian, for being unable to read - when CLEARLY I read and inferred correctly what you meant, and now you can't even own up to it?
LOL. Up my ass? How diverse of you. So you're a homophobe too?
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 11:45:18 AM
Interesting side note regarding authors and bad takes. Mein Kampf is still sold in the USA, and for years Houghton Mifflin brought in lots of money in sales (they say the profits were all donated to charity...but I didnt check the books, so who knows). So should they be boycotted? Should the current version of the book (I think published through createspace) have its publisher boycotted?
Let's put Houghton Mifflin on the Red List.
Yay we're playing the The Game!
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:47:31 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 11:45:18 AM
Interesting side note regarding authors and bad takes. Mein Kampf is still sold in the USA, and for years Houghton Mifflin brought in lots of money in sales (they say the profits were all donated to charity...but I didnt check the books, so who knows). So should they be boycotted? Should the current version of the book (I think published through createspace) have its publisher boycotted?
Let's put Houghton Mifflin on the Red List.
Yay we're playing the The Game!
We can add Amazon for distributing the digital version, and Harper Collins for being the publisher there as well.
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:46:48 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 11:44:13 AM
Up your ass, next to your head, apparently. Because, for the third or fourth time, I never said CRKrueger was a Holocaust denier, only that he was desperate to excuse Barker's Holocaust denial.
Remember that part where you said I had no reading comprehension? Why would we believe someone that can't even get their own story right? Then, besmirch an entire forum, and single out me, the Lone Asian, for being unable to read - when CLEARLY I read and inferred correctly what you meant, and now you can't even own up to it?
LOL. Up my ass? How diverse of you. So you're a homophobe too?
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/018/510/858.gif)
And Wonder Woman for being an Amazon...
and whole country of Brazil because now Wonder Woman is Brazilian...
and all women because women get Brazilian wax-jobs.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 11:50:07 AM
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/018/510/858.gif)
Dang you really got me! Typical white-male privilege. This is why you called me lil-fella, because I'm Asian. I get it. I get it. I see you for what you are.
Imperializing all over me.
You couldn't even do me the decency of getting an Asian triggered GIF. Instead you had to white-wash me as a caucasian. Cauc being the operative term. But that what racists like Tubesock Army do. They just do RACIST THINGS.
I neither know nor care about your ID politics
sorry snowflake
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 11:59:03 AM
I neither know nor care about your ID politics
sorry snowflake
But you know us all enough to call CRKrueger and anyone that disagrees with you an Anti-Semite. And you care enough to call me a little, non-English comprehending Asian with homosexual projections (whether that means I like caucs, or sticking things up my own ass such as my head, or YOU DO and don't realize you're projecting is besides the point).
I think you are the one with racee/sex/gender problem. Can we talk about it? I really want to hug this out.
For someone that says they don't care about ID Politics you certainly talk a LOT about them. I mean... this thread... Maybe you are the one that is not fully comprehending the words on the screen? Certainly the sub-text.
"Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth"
-tenbones, probably
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 12:07:34 PM
"Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth"
-tenbones, probably
That's literally a quote from a Racist.
The Meta cannot be understated enough.
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 12:08:55 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 12:07:34 PM
"Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth"
-tenbones, probably
That's literally a quote from a Racist.
The Meta cannot be understated enough.
Did you just call tenbones a racist? Whoa, dude, that IS meta!
You know another casual example of your game is the penchant for insinuation. As I've pointed out your homo-erotic insults at me, also makes me question your projecting of self-loathing.
You're called Tubesock. I think you're in denial.
Admit it - "Tenbones" sounds pretty good, doesn't it... Tubesock.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 12:10:51 PM
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 12:08:55 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 12:07:34 PM
"Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth"
-tenbones, probably
That's literally a quote from a Racist.
The Meta cannot be understated enough.
Did you just call tenbones a racist? Whoa, dude, that IS meta!
Asian is apparently a new difficulty level. Yes, Tubesock - read the quote very carefully.
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 12:11:41 PM
You know another casual example of your game is the penchant for insinuation. As I've pointed out your homo-erotic insults at me, also makes me question your projecting of self-loathing.
You're called Tubesock. I think you're in denial.
Admit it - "Tenbones" sounds pretty good, doesn't it... Tubesock.
Someone's head being "up their ass" is a common phrase, and not in any way linked to sexuality. THE PROJECTION IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!
I'm surprised we're not allies, since literally everyone on this forum knows what a raging SJW I am.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 06:17:06 AMIt in no way "undermines my position" to condemn real Nazis. It does undermine theirs. And apparently yours, for some reason...
Watching Pundit condemn "real Nazis" is hilarious. His lack of self awareness is staggering.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 12:13:35 PM
Someone's head being "up their ass" is a common phrase, and not in any way linked to sexuality. THE PROJECTION IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!
But it's the totality of your claims, all of it reeks of a disdain of homosexualness that is rivalled only by your hatred of Asians. Your online handle, all of it. Denigrating me for my height. Whitewashing me in your own GIF.
There are a lot of unspoken problems here.
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 12:16:05 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 12:13:35 PM
Someone's head being "up their ass" is a common phrase, and not in any way linked to sexuality. THE PROJECTION IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!
But it's the totality of your claims, all of it reeks of a disdain of homosexualness that is rivalled only by your hatred of Asians. Your online handle, all of it. Denigrating me for my height. Whitewashing me in your own GIF.
There are a lot of unspoken problems here.
(https://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/grasping-at-straws-gif.gif)
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 12:14:13 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 06:17:06 AMIt in no way "undermines my position" to condemn real Nazis. It does undermine theirs. And apparently yours, for some reason...
Watching Pundit condemn real Nazis is hilarious. His lack of self awareness is staggering.
Yeah, all the actual real Nazis are fucked. I hold the same position against members of the Golden Horde. Fuck those guys.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 12:17:12 PM
...
How many times can you white-wash me? It's becoming unfunny. Unless you're projecting again - a white man reaching desperately for a box of tiny phallic symbols...
Wait a minute, are you implying Asians have small caucs? Dude... how can you not say you're a racist?
in your defense - they're small white phallic symbols. So maybe this is self-loathing?
I'm just messing with you Tubesock.
I'm just here to laugh at you.
I can laugh with and at repressed homosexual homophobe racists. We can all get along!
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 12:21:34 PM
I'm just messing with you Tubesock.
I'm just here to laugh at you.
Yeah... "Joke's on them..."
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 12:22:29 PM
Yeah... "Joke's on them..."
"Them" meaning non-white homosexuals.
There's the quote for you. See, the first step in recovery is admitting your own homophobic racist views. Now we need to address that repression.
Hey look! We're still playing The Game - only it's my game now.
so trivial and easy.
I hope people are taking notes.
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 12:25:01 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 12:22:29 PM
Yeah... "Joke's on them..."
"Them" meaning non-white homosexuals.
There's the quote for you. See, the first step in recovery is admitting your own homophobic racist views. Now we need to address that repression.
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 12:26:02 PM
Hey look! We're still playing The Game - only it's my game now.
so trivial and easy.
I hope people are taking notes.
(https://i0.wp.com/gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Boxer-Punch-Himself-in-Head.gif?resize=350%2C187&ssl=1)
White self-loathing. That is a problem. We're making progress.
Keep it coming.
Dig deeper brother! DEEPER.
Quote from: crkrueger on March 21, 2022, 09:39:17 AM
We know he sat on the Editorial Advisory Committee of that Journal, but we don't know how active he was.
I know several professors who sit on various boards and committees and don't do a thing, ever. It looks good for the Journal to have more letters attached to the people on "Advisory" Committees and also looks good for the professor's CV when they write a book.
Unfortunately, "Anti-Semitic" has no actual value as a descriptor, these days, it's meaningless.
Quick question.
What the fuck?
Because you can call anyone Anti-Semitic over nearly anything - including nothing, as this thread shows. It's there to trot out a litany of terms that end in Nazi/Racist/Holocaust denier etc. whatever is in vogue for the purpose of shutting down a discussion/removing people from position of power/undermining institutions based on guilt for perceived sins, mostly imaginary.
or... The Game(tm)
Let me know if my English is bad, I'm just an Asian.
Ok, but in this case it means sitting in an an advisory position on a journal of Holocaust deniers. Like, we can argue about whether lots of other things are anti-Semitic, but I think that should be an easy one.
And I guess we're just going to ignore Spinachcat defending ironic Nazism, ignoring the fact that Barker's book was printed by actual neo-Nazis who profit from its sales. That's fine and not at all concerning.
Barker's publisher (https://cosmotheistchurch.org/product-category/books/fiction/)
The organization (https://nationalvanguard.org/)
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2022, 01:55:01 PM
THEY DID DO SOMETHING WRONG. They distorted history while protecting a Nazi so that they could keep on making money!
Except we do not know that is what happened. All we know is that nothing was said of this. And the only reason anyone has any clue is when someone dug through Barkers stuff and found a manuscript.
Now here is where we need to ask the questions instead of playing Woke Mob.
How long ago was the manuscript found?
Did anyone think it was anything other than a sci-fi novel in similar vein to The High Tower? And a few others where Germany never fell or some other historical "What if someone else won". Because without that publisher attached to the book its just one more of these. If the manuscript does not have anything about the publisher on it then they might have never made the connection.
All that assumes that Barker kept everyone in the dark about any of his other dealings. Monard, Kask, Arneson just to name a few apparently never knew as none of them have ever mentioned even suspecting. And they worked closely with Barker or gamed with him extensively.
So till we know more the foundation could be victims of Barkers deception as well.
Or not.
I am saying we need to do what the woke cult does not. Dig more. Learn more. Before blindly believing just one story and attacking someone.
Personally I am already trying to get ahold of a few people I know who might shed some light on this.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:32:03 PM
Hitler remarked he would have preferred the Muslims had won the Battle of Tours (732). He said he thought Islam would have been preferable for the "German character," calling Christianity "flabby." (link for context (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours#Adolf_Hitler_on_the_Battle_of_Tours))
Phillip Barker changed his name to Muhammad Abd-al-Rahman Barker when he converted to Islam.
The Muslim leader defeated at the Battle of Tours was Muhammad Abdul Rahman Al-Ghafiqi.
I think it's likely MAR Barker renamed himself after a statement by Hitler to indicate his agreement.
Good lord that is a fucked up connection.
And it mirrors his pseudonym for Serpent Walks which is another historical ref.
How deep does the rabbit hole go...
A more salient and important question is:
To what end does this rabbit hole exist?
Seriously - pretend the worst case scenario: The Tekumel Foundation knew everything from the start and hid it.
Then what? You put them on the Red List? What else? Or is the suggestion that anyone that has arbitrary "bad thoughts" also go on the bad list? Being an anti-ANYTHING is then grounds for it - unless you're making the argument that some categories of people are *better* than others.
SJW's like Tubesock get you trapped in this game because they deny what they're really saying: that groups of people are WORSE. And mostly it's white people they're talking about, but it has nothing to do with race at all. It's to get you unmoored from their real goal.
This is why I scoff at Pundit trying to dismiss my Lovecraft remark. Even back in his day he was an outier in his general opinion of Semites and non-whites (in varying degrees) but that transitive sin seems to not measure up to not printing his books, playing games about his works, etc. The same standard should apply for Tekumel.
The goal of this thread is to drive that idea into people's heads that they are in fact problematic. My question is WHY? Tubesock tells you straight out - you *might* be a Holocaust Denier if you don't agree with his claim about them. If you accept that framing, welcome to the Rabbit Hole.
I mean... it's clear Tubesock himself is a racist. Isn't it? He literally belittled me as a small Asian and implied I had a small dick. I know Orientalism when I see it, because I'm Oriental and I played Oriental Adventures, and was raised there.
All I'm gonna say is that if you find yourself on the same side of an argument as Tubesnake?
Do a quick review. I'm not saying you MUST rethink your position, but it might not hurt to run a diagnostic.
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 01:18:23 PM
A more salient and important question is:
To what end does this rabbit hole exist?
Seriously - pretend the worst case scenario: The Tekumel Foundation knew everything from the start and hid it.
Then what? You put them on the Red List? What else? Or is the suggestion that anyone that has arbitrary "bad thoughts" also go on the bad list? Being an anti-ANYTHING is then grounds for it - unless you're making the argument that some categories of people are *better* than others.
SJW's like Tubesock get you trapped in this game because they deny what they're really saying: that groups of people are WORSE. And mostly it's white people they're talking about, but it has nothing to do with race at all. It's to get you unmoored from their real goal.
This is why I scoff at Pundit trying to dismiss my Lovecraft remark. Even back in his day he was an outier in his general opinion of Semites and non-whites (in varying degrees) but that transitive sin seems to not measure up to not printing his books, playing games about his works, etc. The same standard should apply for Tekumel.
The goal of this thread is to drive that idea into people's heads that they are in fact problematic. My question is WHY? Tubesock tells you straight out - you *might* be a Holocaust Denier if you don't agree with his claim about them. If you accept that framing, welcome to the Rabbit Hole.
I mean... it's clear Tubesock himself is a racist. Isn't it? He literally belittled me as a small Asian and implied I had a small dick. I know Orientalism when I see it, because I'm Oriental and I played Oriental Adventures, and was raised there.
Raised in Kara-tur? Impressive. We need to ban amazon for distributing mein kampf as well.
Goddamn right. And as further proof of my non-racism, I acknowledge the God of Kara-tur is black - Mikeru Pondusmisu!
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:50:29 PM
Ok, but in this case it means sitting in an an advisory position on a journal of Holocaust deniers. Like, we can argue about whether lots of other things are anti-Semitic, but I think that should be an easy one.
And I guess we're just going to ignore Spinachcat defending ironic Nazism, ignoring the fact that Barker's book was printed by actual neo-Nazis who profit from its sales. That's fine and not at all concerning.
Barker's publisher (https://cosmotheistchurch.org/product-category/books/fiction/)
The organization (https://nationalvanguard.org/)
That is one of the hard points in this mess.
But.
If Barker was pulling an infiltration/subversion gig. Then would make sense. Its not the first time someones done this. But that fits only if Serpent Walks presents the SS cell in a less than admirable light. The little I have seen so far reads like any other "what if" book.
I doubt that was the case considering some of the other connections. But instead of just blindly taking the woke mobs word. I am investigating. Moreso because the timing of all this is suspect.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 21, 2022, 01:20:01 PM
All I'm gonna say is that if you find yourself on the same side of an argument as Tubesnake?
Do a quick review. I'm not saying you MUST rethink your position, but it might not hurt to run a diagnostic.
My side of the argument is that anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial are objectively bad things
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 01:18:23 PM
A more salient and important question is:
To what end does this rabbit hole exist?
Your Bad Wrong Thought will be exposed if you dabble in things that are
Not Approved!
Those in "My Group" will be proven superior to the "Impure". Those will be identified and labeled so their "Impure" thinking cannot taint "My Group".
:p
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 01:31:16 PM
My side of the argument is that anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial are objectively bad things
That is LITERALLY not what you said. You said people that might not agree with your point might be, among other things, Holocaust Deniers. This is your game of insinuation.
You DID say I have reading comprehension problems. And since I'm pretty certain I don't, and I do understand the real subtext of your insinuations - I merely point it back to you, that your claims about me being "little" and "lacking reading comprehension" might be due to my being Asian. Which holds about as much water mechanically as your own claims. And sounds, by your own standards, racist.
Now tell me how racist you exactly are? Or prove to me you're not.
Edit: I will accept an apology given in earnest as long as we're playing The Game(tm). Otherwise I'll hold you to your own standard and call you a Racist.
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 01:18:23 PM
A more salient and important question is:
To what end does this rabbit hole exist?
Seriously - pretend the worst case scenario: The Tekumel Foundation knew everything from the start and hid it.
Well we know that one reason the rabbit hole exists is because the cult is desperate to destroy Tekumel.
If they were not involved I'd be more inclined to believe all this. But they are. And we know they lie then lie about the lies and so on.
But they have Pundit dancing to their tune. Which is likely the end to which the rabbit hole really exists.
And that is why I'm here. I'm the motherfucker with the red flares in his hands telling Pundit and everyone else to listen to Akbar.
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 01:28:42 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:50:29 PM
Ok, but in this case it means sitting in an an advisory position on a journal of Holocaust deniers. Like, we can argue about whether lots of other things are anti-Semitic, but I think that should be an easy one.
And I guess we're just going to ignore Spinachcat defending ironic Nazism, ignoring the fact that Barker's book was printed by actual neo-Nazis who profit from its sales. That's fine and not at all concerning.
Barker's publisher (https://cosmotheistchurch.org/product-category/books/fiction/)
The organization (https://nationalvanguard.org/)
That is one of the hard points in this mess.
But.
If Barker was pulling an infiltration/subversion gig. Then would make sense. Its not the first time someones done this. But that fits only if Serpent Walks presents the SS cell in a less than admirable light. The little I have seen so far reads like any other "what if" book.
I doubt that was the case considering some of the other connections. But instead of just blindly taking the woke mobs word. I am investigating. Moreso because the timing of all this is suspect.
And so fucking what? I wouldn't take a single dime from a Nazi publisher. Someone willing to write a Nazi book and make money for Nazis is a bad person even if they did it for the lulz. News flash, a lot of Hitler's actual government didn't take all their horseshit all that seriously. Hitler made Japanese into Honorary Aryans and did the same for some of his Jewish allies and friends, and talked about God and Christianity but despised it, and so on and so forth. And Barker knew all that about Hitler and decided he was of a like mind. Hitler was a political firebrand and a personal bully, Barker was a detached academic, but Barker was all like, "Setting much of the specifics aside, you had to admit Hitler had a point" but apparently that is not a bridge too far for some people on this forum. Demagoguery and insincerity doesn't make Nazi less bad, it makes it worse, it's actually fundamental to how Nazism under Hitler functioned.
So which is worse - identifying with tribalism like a Nazi?
Or BEING an actual Nazi?
Because the former is LEGION.
The latter doesn't exist.
Example: I am a member of the PC Master Race. Fuck all you console plebs.
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 01:35:32 PM
That is LITERALLY not what you said. You said people that might not agree with your point might be, among other things, Holocaust Deniers. This is your game of insinuation.
That is what he implied when I simply pointed out he went from not knowing much about Barker and Tekumel to being sad about the fall of a legend, and owning a book or two, around five pages later.
But the mask always slips. And now I know he was just projecting his own anti-Asian beliefs and core values on me. I hope he gets help.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 01:40:42 PM
And so fucking what? I wouldn't take a single dime from a Nazi publisher. Someone willing to write a Nazi book and make money for Nazis is a bad person even if they did it for the lulz.
Stop. And Re-read whats been said on this.
That being that there is a remote possibility that Barker was involved to spy on the enemy as it was. Or as part of some plan to actually subvert them somehow?
Seems unlikely. But it is possible. Hence why we need to investigate.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2022, 01:57:14 PM
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 01:35:32 PM
That is LITERALLY not what you said. You said people that might not agree with your point might be, among other things, Holocaust Deniers. This is your game of insinuation.
That is what he implied when I simply pointed out he went from not knowing much about Barker and Tekumel to being sad about the fall of a legend, and owning a book or two, around five pages later.
But the mask always slips. And now I know he was just projecting his own anti-Asian beliefs and core values on me. I hope he gets help.
I do too. Racism (especially Anti-Asian racism if I'm being a bit self-centered) needs to end. This hobby seems rife with it. Rife I tell you. Hopefully Tubesock will apologize and see the error of his ways, we can move past this.
But alas, I think the stranglehold of White Privilege is too strong in him. I'll be a good ally to those that want help - all he has to do is ask.
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 01:18:23 PMSeriously - pretend the worst case scenario: The Tekumel Foundation knew everything from the start and hid it.
Then what?
It is the Tekumel Foundation, not the MAR Barker Foundation. The Tekumel Foundation doesn't promote Islam even though Barker was a Muslim. Neither does the foundation promote Nazi-ism.
I don't buy the argument that they are "profiting" off of Barker as they aren't making any money in the first place. They exist solely to promote a fictional game world. That's it. Putting them on the red list is wrong and distorts the entire purpose of why the Woke List was created in the first place.
Wokeness is an ideology that has political, cultural, and economic power. Nazi-ism has none of those things.
I doubt the Tekumel Foundation makes much money. But people like clout. Sometimes they do bad things to hang onto it. Whether you did it for $1 million or just to be the cool Tekumel guys, there is moral weight to the decision.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 02:09:14 PM
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 01:18:23 PMSeriously - pretend the worst case scenario: The Tekumel Foundation knew everything from the start and hid it.
Then what?
It is the Tekumel Foundation, not the MAR Barker Foundation. The Tekumel Foundation doesn't promote Islam even though Barker was a Muslim. Neither does the foundation promote Nazi-ism.
I don't buy the argument that they are "profiting" off of Barker as they aren't making any money in the first place. They exist solely to promote a fictional game world. That's it. Putting them on the red list is wrong and distorts the entire purpose of why the Woke List was created in the first place.
Wokeness is an ideology that has political, cultural, and economic power. Nazi-ism has none of those things.
I agree.
I need to Steel-Man my own position and take ownership that despitet I'm against my own ideological enemies, the Golden Horde, and admit that I'm likely descended from them. I'm taking full responsibility like Aaron Paul, for the actions of my genetic ancestors.
I apologize to the millions of Russians, Ukrainians, Kazakstani, Moldovans, and Caucasians, that my ancestors raped, pillaged and extorted for treasure and territory. I take responsibility.
Thank you for listening to me.
Damn... that was morally weighing on me. I feel relieved now.
Okay - Tubesock, and anyone else, your turn. This thread is starting to turn out some good!
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 01:59:49 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 01:40:42 PM
And so fucking what? I wouldn't take a single dime from a Nazi publisher. Someone willing to write a Nazi book and make money for Nazis is a bad person even if they did it for the lulz.
Stop. And Re-read whats been said on this.
That being that there is a remote possibility that Barker was involved to spy on the enemy as it was. Or as part of some plan to actually subvert them somehow?
Seems unlikely. But it is possible. Hence why we need to investigate.
*FBI Headquarters*
Agent 1: "Dammit, we need someone to infiltrate this group of Holocaust deniers... but who?"
Agent 2: "I know a Muslim with a Pakistani wife..."
Agent 1: "That's BRILLIANT, Ed!"
Agent 2: "What do we need him to do?
Agent 1: "Write books and edit journals for them."
Agent 2: "And give us information that leads to arrests?"
Agent 1: "No, just write books and edit journals."
Agent 2: "..."
Anyone seriously entertaining this scenario needs their head examined lol.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 02:11:37 PM
I doubt the Tekumel Foundation makes much money. But people like clout. Sometimes they do bad things to hang onto it. Whether you did it for $1 million or just to be the cool Tekumel guys, there is moral weight to the decision.
There is only "moral weight" if you feel that people are under a moral obligation to immediately inform the internet if they ever find out that someone they know has a wrong thought. I'd rather not live in a world where that is the standard.
Who were they supposed to inform anyway? Should they have put a warning on their webpage? Taken an ad in the New York Times? Notified the RPG Committee? Deleted their account on DriveThruRPG? The fact is that nothing they could have done would have ever been enough.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 02:16:47 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 01:59:49 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 01:40:42 PM
And so fucking what? I wouldn't take a single dime from a Nazi publisher. Someone willing to write a Nazi book and make money for Nazis is a bad person even if they did it for the lulz.
Stop. And Re-read whats been said on this.
That being that there is a remote possibility that Barker was involved to spy on the enemy as it was. Or as part of some plan to actually subvert them somehow?
Seems unlikely. But it is possible. Hence why we need to investigate.
*FBI Headquarters*
Agent 1: "Dammit, we need someone to infiltrate this group of Holocaust deniers... but who?"
Agent 2: "I know a Muslim with a Pakistani wife..."
Agent 1: "That's BRILLIANT, Ed!"
Agent 2: "What do we need him to do?
Agent 1: "Write books and edit journals for them."
Agent 2: "And give us information that leads to arrests?"
Agent 1: "No, just write books and edit journals."
Agent 2: "..."
Anyone seriously entertaining this scenario needs their head examined lol.
If you think that sounds outlandish, you apparently do not know any FBI agents. I think that is not what happened, but your example of "outlandish" is divorced from reality of the sorts of dumb shit the FBI gets rolling.
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:05:29 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 06:17:06 AM
[
It in no way "undermines my position" to condemn real Nazis. It does undermine theirs. And apparently yours, for some reason...
/Sigh okay let's play.
SO how much of a problem IS IT, Pundit? You tell me. This is what Tubesock wants you to answer. So since you want to deflect to me like *I* am the problem let's get to the point of your failure to see you're operating from their framework.
TELL US HOW MUCH OF A PROBLEM IS IT?
Then when you're done telling us how much the Tekumel Foundation is culpable of the thoughts of Barker in other works of fiction - what should be done about it?
Unless you think you're scoring points on me (you're not, I'm pointing out how you are now virtue signaling out of fear of appearing of being a "Nazi sympathizer" to people that don't give a shit, because Barker is no more a Nazi than SJW's are Anti-Nazis). They want YOU to give a shit. And since you do - you're playing their game.
But by all means, lecture me (and the rest of us) how much of an anti-Nazi you are. Then I'm sure he'll find some other hoop for you to jump through. And then shall we stop talking about Tekumel here? Shall we ban Chirine since he played with Barker? etc. etc.
IF NOT - then why are you pontificating at me about it? I don't give a shit about his framing. YOU DO.
(unless you hate Asians... LOLOLOL)
Barker was clearly a very literal Nazi. No one writes for the pre-internet equivalent of Stormfront who is not a FUCKING NAZI.
And it is beyond pathetic to see all you hysterics freaking out that Barker being a Nazi somehow "wins points for the left" and worrying that if you don't try to defend Barker's masturbatory SS-Fanfiction as something other than what it clearly is.
Why the fuck do you give a shit what the Left's "motives" are in all of this, when it is very clear the motives don't change the fucking facts? Are you going to change your principles and start denying facts to "own the libs"? Because that's actually what plays right into their hands.
As for me,
I don't give a twopenny fuck what the left thinks; I'm worried about what my grandfather would think. The left will call me a nazi no matter what. The difference is I only go after REAL nazis while they end up providing cover to people who want to defend Nazis by claiming that "when they attack (Obvious Real Nazi) the left are just telling their usual lies like they did about (person who's obviously not a nazi)".
Fuck all of you who are more scared of "liberal tactics" than about condemning a turner-diary level Nazi writer.
Oh I wouldn't put such shenanigans past the FBI, but so far, there isn't anything but hopeful speculation that points in that direction...
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:10:00 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 10:59:25 AM
Imagine being so desperate to excuse anti-Semitism that you look for a reason - any reason - why someone would sit on the board of a Holocaust-denying publication. Other than, y'know, being a Holocaust denier.
I haven't seen cope of this magnitude since Trump lost the election.
Imagine being so desperate to try and label people as being Holocaust deniers that you had to prey upon their fears of being labeled holocaust -deniers by using the bad fiction of a dead game-author to transfer those bad sentiments to their players,
Where did tubesock actually do that?? Or are you so pissing your pants with fear of the libs "scoring" that you're seeing imaginary things now?
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 02:20:39 PM
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:05:29 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 06:17:06 AM
[
It in no way "undermines my position" to condemn real Nazis. It does undermine theirs. And apparently yours, for some reason...
/Sigh okay let's play.
SO how much of a problem IS IT, Pundit? You tell me. This is what Tubesock wants you to answer. So since you want to deflect to me like *I* am the problem let's get to the point of your failure to see you're operating from their framework.
TELL US HOW MUCH OF A PROBLEM IS IT?
Then when you're done telling us how much the Tekumel Foundation is culpable of the thoughts of Barker in other works of fiction - what should be done about it?
Unless you think you're scoring points on me (you're not, I'm pointing out how you are now virtue signaling out of fear of appearing of being a "Nazi sympathizer" to people that don't give a shit, because Barker is no more a Nazi than SJW's are Anti-Nazis). They want YOU to give a shit. And since you do - you're playing their game.
But by all means, lecture me (and the rest of us) how much of an anti-Nazi you are. Then I'm sure he'll find some other hoop for you to jump through. And then shall we stop talking about Tekumel here? Shall we ban Chirine since he played with Barker? etc. etc.
IF NOT - then why are you pontificating at me about it? I don't give a shit about his framing. YOU DO.
(unless you hate Asians... LOLOLOL)
Barker was clearly a very literal Nazi. No one writes for the pre-internet equivalent of Stormfront who is not a FUCKING NAZI.
And it is beyond pathetic to see all you hysterics freaking out that Barker being a Nazi somehow "wins points for the left" and worrying that if you don't try to defend Barker's masturbatory SS-Fanfiction as something other than what it clearly is.
Why the fuck do you give a shit what the Left's "motives" are in all of this, when it is very clear the motives don't change the fucking facts? Are you going to change your principles and start denying facts to "own the libs"? Because that's actually what plays right into their hands.
As for me, I don't give a twopenny fuck what the left thinks; I'm worried about what my grandfather would think. The left will call me a nazi no matter what. The difference is I only go after REAL nazis while they end up providing cover to people who want to defend Nazis by claiming that "when they attack (Obvious Real Nazi) the left are just telling their usual lies like they did about (person who's obviously not a nazi)".
Fuck all of you who are more scared of "liberal tactics" than about condemning a turner-diary level Nazi writer.
When he's right, he's right.
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 11:27:06 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 11:17:39 AM
The only person I've labelled a Holocaust denier is Barker. Nice try, though.
Well who are the "you" in your own quote?
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 11:17:39 AMyou look for a reason - any reason - why someone would sit on the board of a Holocaust-denying publication. Other than, y'know, being a Holocaust denier.
I haven't seen cope of this magnitude since Trump lost the election.
I don't have to try. You have an obvious agenda of trying to label people "Holocaust deniers" from what presumption? That they don't "care enough" as you pretend to about Barker's fiction?
No - you are a disingenuous jackass. Barker is no more a Nazi for being Anti-Semitic, than you're are. Let's play that game with you - why not tell us that all Middle-Eastern people are Nazi's for being Muslim? No one should probably deny Barker is anti-Semitic - but then how anti-Semitic are you? Prove it to *me*.
Because you sound Anti-Asian for speaking to me in those tones. My Truth(tm) is that it appears you're trying to Orientalize me.
What kind of fucking gibberish have you been reduced to?! "barker is no more a nazi for being anti-semitic than you are"? What about for writing an entire SS-fanfic novel about how the wrong side lost but neo-nazis could still make it right and retake the world? What about being on the board of one of the biggest pre-internet pseudo-academic Nazi journals?
I get that you're scared of the left but becoming a liar because of that is not the way you get over that. You get over that by just being a man.
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on March 21, 2022, 11:31:19 AM
I don't think the TF is making and real profits off their publications. I noticed that they are not even the publisher according to Drivethru (I recall that they were in the past). Been listed since 2005 and a platinum bestseller does not seem to be huge sales and money.
First, I think there's multiple tekumel products in print. Second, they are making money off of all of them. Third, while I doubt the foundation is making a lot of cash, even a single platinum bestseller can represent thousands in total profits.
Quote
The only thing I can see being threatened is a perception of self-importance.
Based on everything we know about the Tekumel Foundation, that alone, even if they were each paying money monthly to keep things up, would probably be enough to justify a long-time cover up for them. These people always smacked of being absolutely desperate to seem important, and I wouldn't doubt if it was up to the point of trying to help hide a nazi.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 12:14:13 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 06:17:06 AMIt in no way "undermines my position" to condemn real Nazis. It does undermine theirs. And apparently yours, for some reason...
Watching Pundit condemn "real Nazis" is hilarious. His lack of self awareness is staggering.
What the fuck are you actually suggesting? Are you trying to imply Barker isn't a Nazi? Or that SJWs are being honest when they say I am one?
Don't pussyfoot around like a fucking coward, say what you think!
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 02:20:39 PM
Barker was clearly a very literal Nazi. No one writes for the pre-internet equivalent of Stormfront who is not a FUCKING NAZI.
Literal Nazi? As in he was part of the actual Nazi Party and fought in WWII and did all the nasty things that the Nazi did? Or does he just share some of their ideas towards specific people? So since Neo-Nazi's love Warhammer 40k - for very obvious reasons, is that a LITERAL Nazi thing? Yes, let's continue to play that game of conflation ad absurdum. It will not end well for you.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 02:20:39 PMAnd it is beyond pathetic to see all you hysterics freaking out that Barker being a Nazi somehow "wins points for the left" and worrying that if you don't try to defend Barker's masturbatory SS-Fanfiction as something other than what it clearly is.
I'm not hysteric. I'm laughing at the stupidity of this whole thread. You are dancing to their tune - your so-called "Ideological Enemies" - you know the Reverse Nazi's, but using your own magical beliefs (No Barker wasn't to my knowledge OR YOURS an actual Card-Carrying Nazi. That he was an anti-Semite is not really debatable - but has other implications about YOU and your positions on "things" that is the entire point of why this thread was created. And you're doing your "ideological enemies" job for them, like a complete fool.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 02:20:39 PMWhy the fuck do you give a shit what the Left's "motives" are in all of this, when it is very clear the motives don't change the fucking facts? Are you going to change your principles and start denying facts to "own the libs"? Because that's actually what plays right into their hands.
What facts have I denied? That Barker was an anti-Semite? Nope. But since you're playing stupid on this - the reason why I care is because you're doing what THEY DO. You're accepting their narratives about YOU. You're larping being some kind of 1st Amendement Activist and pretending that while facts are facts, you're conflating the purpose of the use of those facts to mean things that matter - when they don't. Following that bait is exactly the problem and you're doing it.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 02:20:39 PMAs for me, I don't give a twopenny fuck what the left thinks; I'm worried about what my grandfather would think. The left will call me a nazi no matter what. The difference is I only go after REAL nazis while they end up providing cover to people who want to defend Nazis by claiming that "when they attack (Obvious Real Nazi) the left are just telling their usual lies like they did about (person who's obviously not a nazi)".
Well bully for you. I'm sure you're really threatened by all the ACTUAL GERMAN NAZI's in Uruguay that are coming to gas you. You want to virtue signal for your grandfather's efforts? What do you want? Some kind of medal? You're doing the same shit they are. Except you're conflating the importance of "REAL NAZI'S" with anyone that is Anti-Semite. That's what they do too. They call people Nazi's to justify their bad behavior - when the point of it is to cause people LIKE YOU to rise up in self-righteous bullshit indignation to attack their own community.
This is how THEY GOT HERE. You're playing their game.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 02:20:39 PMFuck all of you who are more scared of "liberal tactics" than about condemning a turner-diary level Nazi writer.
No, fuck you that you'll accept
their standards to lower your own on this forum under the pretense that you would even entertain ANYONE here is a Nazi sympathizer in order to play the Virtue Signal game. You have some fucking nerve. How many other people on this forum have Hero-Stories of their forebears to bring to this thread, you fucking twat? I could regale you on my own - survivors of the Battle of the Bulge, CMH holders, four-fucking generations of Marines that have bled and died for causes, that you wanna co-opt for a fucking discussion about TTRPG's and Nazis?
And that's just me - I can guarantee others here can do the same. We could have an entire sub-forum on it. And you presume to lecture us about your virtue on it in this thread? Dude you really need to step back and smell the bullshit coming from your posts. You get NOTHING for being Anti-NAZI. NOTHING.
So fucking brave.
Edit: And lets be REAL CLEAR HERE - you're already calling them "Actual Nazi's" and YOU DON'T KNOW DICK if it's true and neither do WE. And meanwhile you're going to attack us? Yeah - smooth fucking move, asshole.
I am absolutely certain the Pundit is not a Nazi nor a Holocaust denier.
I may disagree with 75% of his politics and his dreadful manners, but he's no Nazi.
He even writes pretty good RPGs.
In other news being an anti-Semite doesn't make you a Nazi.
Being a fascist doesn't make you an anti-Semite.
Being a fascist doesn't make you a Nazi.
However I think you can be a Nazi without a membership card of the NSDAP, but for careful reasons let's go with neo-Nazi.
It really really looks 95% certain that Barker was an anti-Semitic fascist neo-Nazi.
He also created a great fantasy world and inspired a lot of role-players.
Let's now with out what that means to our elf games.
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 01:00:36 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2022, 01:55:01 PM
THEY DID DO SOMETHING WRONG. They distorted history while protecting a Nazi so that they could keep on making money!
Except we do not know that is what happened.
The Tekumel foundation LITERALLY ADMITS that this is exactly what they did. If that's not enough, that the people accused are admitting it, I'm pretty sure you've just decided that no proof ever would be enough. You could see a literal taping of Barker saying "yeah I wrote it, and I'd write it again" and you'd be saying "that might be a deepfake/how do we know that's the REAL barker and not a lookalike?" etc.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOPz1o6XMAAj6g_?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOPz1o3WUAESczJ?format=jpg&name=large)
And???
So......??
By the transitive powers of EVIL they must also be Anti-Semitic?
Edit: If so, how are Lovecraft fans supposed to enjoy his work when he also had Anti-Semitic thoughts? And since you dug this fucking stupid hole of idiocy for yourself - do you only draw the line at Anti-Semitism? But other forms of racism are not "as bad"? Go on... we're still playing this stupid game.
I wonder why it is called anti-semitism, when it means anti Jewish? Arabs are Semitic as well, but NO ONE ever thinks anti-semitism is about hating Arabs, and if many Arabs are accused of Antisemitism all the time...doesn't it get a little confusing? Why not just say racism?
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 01:37:30 PM
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 01:18:23 PM
A more salient and important question is:
To what end does this rabbit hole exist?
Seriously - pretend the worst case scenario: The Tekumel Foundation knew everything from the start and hid it.
Well we know that one reason the rabbit hole exists is because the cult is desperate to destroy Tekumel.
So your argument is that it's all a hoax? Barker did not write a pro-SS book published by the biggest Nazi publishing house of its age, and serve years on the board of the biggest holocaust-denial Nazi pseudo-academic journal for years? And the Tekumel Foundation didn't cover it up, and the post of them apologizing for covering it up is also a hoax?
Or are you arguing that none of those things matter? And if so is it because you think all those things are good things? Or is it just because you think it's more important to "own the libs" even if it means defending and protecting a literal neo-nazi and the people who profiteered off his work?
Speaking of Nazi publishing houses, didnt Amazon still carry the Turner diaries up until a little over a year ago? They also still carry Mein Kampf. Is it time to put all of Amazon on the red list?
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 02:17:12 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 02:11:37 PM
I doubt the Tekumel Foundation makes much money. But people like clout. Sometimes they do bad things to hang onto it. Whether you did it for $1 million or just to be the cool Tekumel guys, there is moral weight to the decision.
There is only "moral weight" if you feel that people are under a moral obligation to immediately inform the internet if they ever find out that someone they know has a wrong thought. I'd rather not live in a world where that is the standard.
Who were they supposed to inform anyway? Should they have put a warning on their webpage? Taken an ad in the New York Times? Notified the RPG Committee? Deleted their account on DriveThruRPG? The fact is that nothing they could have done would have ever been enough.
The problem with all of this is that if Barker had turned out to be a supporter of Al Qaeda instead of a Nazi, you'd be calling for blood. You're just another collectivist, and you are willing to give covering fire to the SS if it helps "your side". Fuck that.
Yes, it's pretty specific isn't it?
It makes poor POC's like me feel left out in the rain. Awwwwwww...
Because apparently no one else is allowed to have trademark atrocities of equal stature. Once again... Asians, the Invisible People. Hazards of all being ninja with excellent math-skills to calculate Stealth checks, and small penises to not distract us from the task at hand.
Does this make me Anti-Semitic for pointing it out? What are the current SJW rules in the Identity Politics Index. I know Asians stock prices have fallen to the floor, like non-SJW white people.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:08:30 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 02:17:12 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 02:11:37 PM
I doubt the Tekumel Foundation makes much money. But people like clout. Sometimes they do bad things to hang onto it. Whether you did it for $1 million or just to be the cool Tekumel guys, there is moral weight to the decision.
There is only "moral weight" if you feel that people are under a moral obligation to immediately inform the internet if they ever find out that someone they know has a wrong thought. I'd rather not live in a world where that is the standard.
Who were they supposed to inform anyway? Should they have put a warning on their webpage? Taken an ad in the New York Times? Notified the RPG Committee? Deleted their account on DriveThruRPG? The fact is that nothing they could have done would have ever been enough.
The problem with all of this is that if Barker had turned out to be a supporter of Al Qaeda instead of a Nazi, you'd be calling for blood. You're just another collectivist, and you are willing to give covering fire to the SS if it helps "your side". Fuck that.
Well...I would be willing to bet 100 bucks he did support Al Qaeda. Everything about what we have seen of his personal life points strongly in that direction, he just did not bother writing a book where they took over the world with their nazi ray guns or what not.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 02:41:27 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 12:14:13 PMWatching Pundit condemn "real Nazis" is hilarious. His lack of self awareness is staggering.
What the fuck are you actually suggesting? Are you trying to imply Barker isn't a Nazi? Or that SJWs are being honest when they say I am one?
Don't pussyfoot around like a fucking coward, say what you think!
The SJWs are not lying, they believe that you are a literal Nazi. Yet you throw around the exact same accusation and then expect everyone to believe you but not believe them.
And I'm not saying that Barker wasn't a Nazi, I'm just saying that you shouldn't be so quick and eager to make that accusation considering how many have done the same thing to you.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 02:50:20 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 01:00:36 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2022, 01:55:01 PM
THEY DID DO SOMETHING WRONG. They distorted history while protecting a Nazi so that they could keep on making money!
Except we do not know that is what happened.
The Tekumel foundation LITERALLY ADMITS that this is exactly what they did. If that's not enough, that the people accused are admitting it, I'm pretty sure you've just decided that no proof ever would be enough. You could see a literal taping of Barker saying "yeah I wrote it, and I'd write it again" and you'd be saying "that might be a deepfake/how do we know that's the REAL barker and not a lookalike?" etc.
Reading their statement. Then glancing at the book in question... This all reads like they took someones word on it rather than looking for themselves.
But.
Assuming they did check themselves then current statements seems to indicate that they did not know until relatively recently. Assuming the timeline is that the manuscript was discovered some years ago. But the foundation was not informed until a year or two ago?
Re-read what I have said so far.
I am not saying Baker did not do these things. I am saying that we need to investigate ourselves rather than just blindly believe one source and some connections that could be read multiple ways.
Currently I believe everything is pointing to Barker being both up to something seriously wrong. But I am also seeing falsehoods being tossed around which starts to make me doubt this. So I am doing some digging of my own.
In fact it is the things that have been done to
you that inspire me to stop and question any accusations leveled at anyone.
Unfortunately in this case the pieces are pointing to Baker being guilty.
TL:DR
All I want to know is, is Empire of the Petal Throne now badwrongfun or not?
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 02:44:41 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 02:20:39 PMAs for me, I don't give a twopenny fuck what the left thinks; I'm worried about what my grandfather would think. The left will call me a nazi no matter what. The difference is I only go after REAL nazis while they end up providing cover to people who want to defend Nazis by claiming that "when they attack (Obvious Real Nazi) the left are just telling their usual lies like they did about (person who's obviously not a nazi)".
Well bully for you. I'm sure you're really threatened by all the ACTUAL GERMAN NAZI's in Uruguay that are coming to gas you. You want to virtue signal for your grandfather's efforts? What do you want? Some kind of medal? You're doing the same shit they are. Except you're conflating the importance of "REAL NAZI'S" with anyone that is Anti-Semite. That's what they do too. They call people Nazi's to justify their bad behavior - when the point of it is to cause people LIKE YOU to rise up in self-righteous bullshit indignation to attack their own community.
This is how THEY GOT HERE. You're playing their game.
Let's start by saying I would drink a toast to every anti-semite being shot in the face. But you saying "he's an anti-semite" is retarded; you're trying to pretend as if Barker didn't want Jews in his country club or thought there were too many Jews in hollywood, when in fact he wrote a book about exterminating the Jewish people. He wasn't JUST an "anti-semite". He was a Nazi.
Any community that tolerates people who write fanfic novels about how great and mighty and large-dicked the heroic geniuses of the SS were is NOT "my own community". FUCK ANYONE who supports that, or in fact who supports any kind of racial collectivism.
YOU are the one playing any game the left might be making here. They desperately want to be able to say 'see? the OSR is full of nazis and the proof is how they're defending Barker'. That's not the reason to condemn Barker though, the reason is because HE WAS A FUCKING NAZI.
Quote
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 02:20:39 PMFuck all of you who are more scared of "liberal tactics" than about condemning a turner-diary level Nazi writer.
No, fuck you that you'll accept their standards to lower your own on this forum under the pretense that you would even entertain ANYONE here is a Nazi sympathizer in order to play the Virtue Signal game.
As you know, I ban anyone who is an open Nazi sympathizer here. What made you think I would now start standing up for the memory of a dead nazi, or for a bunch of profiteering fucks who would rather keep being the gatekeepers of the tekumel community (and whatever pittance of profit that represents) to the point of covering up said Nazism?
I did not believe, and still do not believe, that almost anyone in the OSR is a real neo-nazi. But I have to say that the vigorous desperation some people have shown on this thread to try to PROTECT A NAZI is fucking shocking. Anyone who is doing so is either a fellow Nazi using "but there's some leftists who are condemning this so we should be for it" as cover, or a shit-headed moron collectivist who is exactly the type of cunt that the first guy benefits from.
So which one are you: Nazi, or moronic cunt?
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 02:51:53 PM
And???
So......??
By the transitive powers of EVIL they must also be Anti-Semitic?
No. They're profiteers.
Now, are you a Nazi, or a moronic cunt?
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:03:48 PM
So your argument is that it's all a hoax? Barker did not write a pro-SS book published by the biggest Nazi publishing house of its age, and serve years on the board of the biggest holocaust-denial Nazi pseudo-academic journal for years? And the Tekumel Foundation didn't cover it up, and the post of them apologizing for covering it up is also a hoax?
I literally never said that. In fact I'll steel-man you: I BELIEVE IT'S TRUE. My question to you is: SO NOW WHAT?
You're acting as if they're all literal Nazi's. YOU don't know the facts - but again, let's pretend they did know. Are they responsible now for the bad-actions of a guy who wrote a book of fiction about being an Anti-Semite and Anti-Semitic material? Are they guilty by association for their shepherding a foundational part of the TTRPG hobby, because the primary author had these beliefs? Are you privy to the inner-thoughts of Barker as to WHY he's an Anti-Semite? I'm not excusing it - I'm saying that he IS an Anti-Semite, but I'm more likely to believe it's because of his Muslim indoctrination, (if I had to guess - and yes it's ONLY a guess), but surely you can see that the Tekumel Foundation had very real reasons to not speak about it.
The problem is you're doing what SJW's do and presume the ABSOLUTE WORST in people and passing judgement on them before you have all the facts. And worse you're trying to score virtue signal points to make sure everyone knows you're *anti-Nazi*. Gee... really?
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:03:48 PMOr are you arguing that none of those things matter? And if so is it because you think all those things are good things? Or is it just because you think it's more important to "own the libs" even if it means defending and protecting a literal neo-nazi and the people who profiteered off his work?
I'm arguing that YOU, jeopardize your own position by accepting their framing - look at you, you're already doing it. You do the hurr-hurr "Owning the Libs" - who the fuck does that but them? I don't need to "own" anyone. I don't accept other peoples framing of reality that doesn't have consistency. I'm trying to protect you from yourself.
Because as I pointed out - you make this grandiose and magnimous gesture of of being "Anti-Nazi" but don't get riled up at the implications of your own words.
Which is WHY I told you to stop playing their game - they don't care about this "issue" - because they know you *do*. And if you go down this road, like you are, you're going to alienate yourself and others because this is the hill they want you to die on. And yes - they want you to DIE both figuratively, economically, and likely literally.
The correct response is:
Who fucking cares, he's dead. Tekumel rocks. GTFO.It's only because you want to play their game for reasons I can only guess, that you feel inclined to join with them in the bullshit hand-wringing chorus and pearl-clutching "Oh my, Barker was an anti-semite... however can we trust the Tekumel Foundation? And therefore..." what exactly? You know precisely what comes next because you're already doing it - you find every point where someone takes exception and label them a fucking Nazi/sympathizer etc. etc.
Because that's what they do.
You called my posts to outline these mechanics "hysterics" - yet it worked... and you didn't understand a goddamn thing.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 03:17:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 02:41:27 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 12:14:13 PMWatching Pundit condemn "real Nazis" is hilarious. His lack of self awareness is staggering.
What the fuck are you actually suggesting? Are you trying to imply Barker isn't a Nazi? Or that SJWs are being honest when they say I am one?
Don't pussyfoot around like a fucking coward, say what you think!
The SJWs are not lying, they believe that you are a literal Nazi. Yet you throw around the exact same accusation and then expect everyone to believe you but not believe them.
And I'm not saying that Barker wasn't a Nazi, I'm just saying that you shouldn't be so quick and eager to make that accusation considering how many have done the same thing to you.
I've provided proof that Barker was a Nazi. The proof is beyond incontrovertible at this point. Anyone pretending that "it could all be a hoax" is either a moron or a Nazi.
Which one are you?
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 02:17:12 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 02:11:37 PM
I doubt the Tekumel Foundation makes much money. But people like clout. Sometimes they do bad things to hang onto it. Whether you did it for $1 million or just to be the cool Tekumel guys, there is moral weight to the decision.
There is only "moral weight" if you feel that people are under a moral obligation to immediately inform the internet if they ever find out that someone they know has a wrong thought. I'd rather not live in a world where that is the standard.
Who were they supposed to inform anyway? Should they have put a warning on their webpage? Taken an ad in the New York Times? Notified the RPG Committee? Deleted their account on DriveThruRPG? The fact is that nothing they could have done would have ever been enough.
We're not talking about "people." We are talking about people who decided it was their job to preserve Barker's legacy and promote his work. Well, when you do that, you get the whole enchilada. So they should have been forthcoming with the information as soon as they figured out what the hell to say about it.
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 03:20:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 02:50:20 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 01:00:36 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2022, 01:55:01 PM
THEY DID DO SOMETHING WRONG. They distorted history while protecting a Nazi so that they could keep on making money!
Except we do not know that is what happened.
The Tekumel foundation LITERALLY ADMITS that this is exactly what they did. If that's not enough, that the people accused are admitting it, I'm pretty sure you've just decided that no proof ever would be enough. You could see a literal taping of Barker saying "yeah I wrote it, and I'd write it again" and you'd be saying "that might be a deepfake/how do we know that's the REAL barker and not a lookalike?" etc.
Reading their statement. Then glancing at the book in question... This all reads like they took someones word on it rather than looking for themselves.
WHERE? WHERE DOES IT SEEM TO SAY THAT?? They are LITERALLY talking about their own research. The MANUSCRIPT OF THE BOOK WAS FOUND. The style is incontrovertibly his. THE PEN NAME IS ONE OF HIS ANCESTORS. He WAS ON THE FUCKING BOARD OF THE LARGEST NAZI PSEUDO-ACADEMIC JOURNAL OF ITS TIME.
WHAT FUCKING EVIDENCE IS STILL MISSING YOU FUCKING BUFFOON?!
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:08:30 PMThe problem with all of this is that if Barker had turned out to be a supporter of Al Qaeda instead of a Nazi, you'd be calling for blood. You're just another collectivist, and you are willing to give covering fire to the SS if it helps "your side". Fuck that.
When have I ever called for blood? I was one of the few people that spoke out against the cancellation of Zak S, even though he has previously attacked me for being "part of the problem", and I was against the cancellation of Judges Guild. I'm just generally anti-cancellation and anti-witch hunt.
Besides, Barker was a convert and converts are almost always more radical. So I wouldn't have been surprised if MAR Barker was pro-Al Qaeda just like I'm not surprised that he's anti-Semitic. Neither of those fact would have affected my belief that none of those things have anything to do with Tekumel or the Tekumel Foundation.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:22:33 PM
Let's start with how if I would drink a toast to every anti-semite being shot in the face. But you saying "he's an anti-semite" is retarded; you're trying to pretend as if Barker didn't want Jews in his country club or thought there were too many Jews in hollywood, when in fact he wrote a book about exterminating the Jewish people. He wasn't JUST an "anti-semite". He was a Nazi.
So are we banning Tekumel? Put your fucking money where your mouth is. Are you banning Chirine too? He played with Barker for years - clearly he's infected with your magical telepathy. Are you going to ban Talislanta - hugely influenced by Tekumel. Clearly the work of Nazis. Yes - keep playing their game see the interesting ways you too can witch-hunt people.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:22:33 PMAny community that tolerates people who write fanfic novels about how great and mighty and large-dicked the heroic geniuses of the SS were is NOT "my own community". FUCK ANYONE who supports that, or in fact who supports any kind of racial collectivism.
YOU are the one playing any game the left might be making here. They desperately want to be able to say 'see? the OSR is full of nazis and the proof is how they're defending Barker'. That's not the reason to condemn Barker though, the reason is because HE WAS A FUCKING NAZI.
But you then, are a Nazi too. Because you play fast and loose with the term. I don't even know what it means TO YOU. Anti-Semites are Nazis? What about Anti-Asians? Are they Nazis? Anti-Blacks? Are they Nazi's? Anti-Gays? Or are you only stipulating Jews?
Go on - keep jumping through the hoops until you come full circle and see what you've become: Them. YOU are them. Precisely NO ONE here is supporting Anti-Semitism, you keep conflating that notion with this desire to be seen as "stridently anti-Nazi" and playing fast and loose with what a Nazi is vs. what it isn't. And that's the whole point. Because wherever you fall on what it isn't is where you get called out on being a racist for not including others in your nifty bullshit term.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 02:20:39 PMFuck all of you who are more scared of "liberal tactics" than about condemning a turner-diary level Nazi writer.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:22:33 PM
As you know, I ban anyone who is an open Nazi sympathizer here. What made you think I would now start standing up for the memory of a dead nazi, or for a bunch of profiteering fucks who would rather keep being the gatekeepers of the tekumel community (and whatever pittance of profit that represents) to the point of covering up said Nazism?
I did not believe, and still do not believe, that almost anyone in the OSR is a real neo-nazi. But I have to say that the vigorous desperation some people have shown on this thread to try to PROTECT A NAZI is fucking shocking. Anyone who is doing so is either a fellow Nazi using "but there's some leftists who are condemning this so we should be for it" as cover, or a shit-headed moron collectivist who is exactly the type of cunt that the first guy benefits from.
So then you're saying you know for an absolute fact why they kept it hidden? And it had nothing to do with anything remotely possible other than them being Nazis. Wow this sounds remarkably like Tubesock... (only he had the good graces to not actually claim to know the truth).
And if you want to conflate *everyone* that disagrees with your retarded take on the purpose of this thread which has brought us exactly to this moment BECAUSE OF YOUR CHOICE and call them a Neo-Nazi/sympathizer - then 'Hats the fuck off to Tubesock, he and the RPGNet crew have won.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:22:33 PMSo which one are you: Nazi, or moronic cunt?
YOU DECIDE, MR. Telepathy. Show me what kind of bitch you really are. You take the easy way out and call me a Cunt and leave me on this forum. Or you ban me as a Nazi and show everyone how fucking stupid you actually are.
I await my martyrdom!
BANNZAAAIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 03:24:18 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:03:48 PM
So your argument is that it's all a hoax? Barker did not write a pro-SS book published by the biggest Nazi publishing house of its age, and serve years on the board of the biggest holocaust-denial Nazi pseudo-academic journal for years? And the Tekumel Foundation didn't cover it up, and the post of them apologizing for covering it up is also a hoax?
I literally never said that. In fact I'll steel-man you: I BELIEVE IT'S TRUE. My question to you is: SO NOW WHAT?
You're acting as if they're all literal Nazi's. YOU don't know the facts -
I DO know the facts. None of the facts are in dispute.
FACT: Barker wrote a fan-fiction novel about the SS being incredible heroes who will come back to take over the world because the aryans are the master race, and go on to exterminate the non-aryan vermin especially the evil jews.
FACT: he also served for years on the board of the most important neo-nazi pseudo-academic journal of its time
FACT: the Tekumel Foundation knew about this for a time period of at least two years and possibly as long as ten years, but kept it covered up because their own clout was more important.
Quote
Are you privy to the inner-thoughts of Barker as to WHY he's an Anti-Semite? I'm not excusing it - I'm saying that he IS an Anti-Semite, but I'm more likely to believe it's because of his Muslim indoctrination, (if I had to guess - and yes it's ONLY a guess),
I'm pretty sure that the main reason someone would be on the board of a major Nazi journal for years and would write a big book about how dreamy the SS are is because HE WAS A FUCKING NAZI.
Quotebut surely you can see that the Tekumel Foundation had very real reasons to not speak about it.
Yes, their own ongoing profit and personal largesse.
Quote
The problem is you're doing what SJW's do and presume the ABSOLUTE WORST in people and passing judgement on them before you have all the facts. And worse you're trying to score virtue signal points to make sure everyone knows you're *anti-Nazi*. Gee... really?
There is ZERO 'best case scenario' of why someone spends decades of his life involved in Nazi causes, serving on the board of a Nazi journal and writes a masturbatory wank-fantasy about how awesome Nazis are. ZERO.
Quote
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:03:48 PMOr are you arguing that none of those things matter? And if so is it because you think all those things are good things? Or is it just because you think it's more important to "own the libs" even if it means defending and protecting a literal neo-nazi and the people who profiteered off his work?
I'm arguing that YOU, jeopardize your own position by accepting their framing - look at you, you're already doing it. You do the hurr-hurr "Owning the Libs" - who the fuck does that but them? I don't need to "own" anyone. I don't accept other peoples framing of reality that doesn't have consistency. I'm trying to protect you from yourself.
You're either a fucking moron or a collectivist cunt. Either way you don't have the ability to protect anyone. You are pissing your pants in fear about some imaginary thing that you're willing to embrace Neo-nazis.
Tell me, Einstein: WHAT THE FUCK ARE THE SJWs GOING TO DO??
"The RPGPundit has condemned a fucking Nazi therefore the sjws will..." - COMPLETE THAT SENTENCE TO MY SATISFACTION OR DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD AGAIN
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:43:25 PM
Tell me, Einstein: WHAT THE FUCK ARE THE SJWs GOING TO DO??
"The RPGPundit has condemned a fucking Nazi therefore the sjws will..." - COMPLETE THAT SENTENCE TO MY SATISFACTION OR DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD AGAIN
... have succeeded in getting RPGPundit to call his own forum regulars Nazis and or sympathizers at the behest of one of their own as planned and start banning people, or discussion around the intended target.
How'd I do?
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 03:38:45 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:22:33 PM
Let's start with how if I would drink a toast to every anti-semite being shot in the face. But you saying "he's an anti-semite" is retarded; you're trying to pretend as if Barker didn't want Jews in his country club or thought there were too many Jews in hollywood, when in fact he wrote a book about exterminating the Jewish people. He wasn't JUST an "anti-semite". He was a Nazi.
So are we banning Tekumel? Put your fucking money where your mouth is. Are you banning Chirine too? He played with Barker for years - clearly he's infected with your magical telepathy. Are you going to ban Talislanta - hugely influenced by Tekumel. Clearly the work of Nazis. Yes - keep playing their game see the interesting ways you too can witch-hunt people.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:22:33 PMAny community that tolerates people who write fanfic novels about how great and mighty and large-dicked the heroic geniuses of the SS were is NOT "my own community". FUCK ANYONE who supports that, or in fact who supports any kind of racial collectivism.
YOU are the one playing any game the left might be making here. They desperately want to be able to say 'see? the OSR is full of nazis and the proof is how they're defending Barker'. That's not the reason to condemn Barker though, the reason is because HE WAS A FUCKING NAZI.
But you then, are a Nazi too. Because you play fast and loose with the term. I don't even know what it means TO YOU. Anti-Semites are Nazis? What about Anti-Asians? Are they Nazis? Anti-Blacks? Are they Nazi's? Anti-Gays? Or are you only stipulating Jews?
You don't know what a Nazi is? Congratulations, you're an SJW.
Someone who writes SS jerk-off fanfic and sits on the board of nazi publications IS A NAZI.
Last chance:
"The RPGPundit has condemned a fucking Nazi therefore the sjws will..." - COMPLETE THAT SENTENCE TO MY SATISFACTION OR DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD AGAIN
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 03:47:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:43:25 PM
Tell me, Einstein: WHAT THE FUCK ARE THE SJWs GOING TO DO??
"The RPGPundit has condemned a fucking Nazi therefore the sjws will..." - COMPLETE THAT SENTENCE TO MY SATISFACTION OR DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD AGAIN
... have succeeded in getting RPGPundit to call his own forum regulars Nazis and or sympathizers at the behest of one of their own as planned and start banning people, or discussion around the intended target.
How the fuck does me calling Barker, who was a NAZI, a Nazi get me to call people on my own forum Nazis, unless they're being nazis? Or Sympathizers, unless they're being sympathizers?
Who the fuck needs to simp for the dude who spent decades of his life secretly writing for and assisting Nazi publications?
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:26:44 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 03:17:42 PMThe SJWs are not lying, they believe that you are a literal Nazi. Yet you throw around the exact same accusation and then expect everyone to believe you but not believe them.
And I'm not saying that Barker wasn't a Nazi, I'm just saying that you shouldn't be so quick and eager to make that accusation considering how many have done the same thing to you.
I've provided proof that Barker was a Nazi. The proof is beyond incontrovertible at this point. Anyone pretending that "it could all be a hoax" is either a moron or a Nazi.
Which one are you?
You think Barker is a Nazi because he fulfills the criteria that you have for what a Nazi is.
The SJWs believe you are a Nazi because you fulfills the criteria that they have for what a Nazi is.
All I've been saying is that calling someone a Nazi is pointless because the term has different meanings for different people. That fact that you are so completely sure that your definition is incontrovertibly the true definition is what I mean when I say you have a lack of self awareness.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:50:17 PM
Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2022, 03:47:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:43:25 PM
Tell me, Einstein: WHAT THE FUCK ARE THE SJWs GOING TO DO??
"The RPGPundit has condemned a fucking Nazi therefore the sjws will..." - COMPLETE THAT SENTENCE TO MY SATISFACTION OR DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD AGAIN
... have succeeded in getting RPGPundit to call his own forum regulars Nazis and or sympathizers at the behest of one of their own as planned and start banning people, or discussion around the intended target.
How the fuck does me calling Barker, who was a NAZI, a Nazi get me to call people on my own forum Nazis, unless they're being nazis? Or Sympathizers, unless they're being sympathizers?
Who the fuck needs to simp for the dude who spent decades of his life secretly writing for and assisting Nazi publications?
Your entire argument is pathetic. It's based on the idea that I'll do things because the SJWs want me to do something. It ignores that I've had an anti-Nazi position on this forum SINCE DAY 1.
So try again, dipshit: what do they accomplish by me standing up for my own principles and taking the shocking position of "nazis bad"?
Because I can definitely see what they gain from manipulating half-globed morons to say "no maybe nazis aren't bad!! not if the left likes them".
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:48:12 PM
Or are you only stipulating Jews?
You don't know what a Nazi is? Congratulations, you're an SJW.
Someone who writes SS jerk-off fanfic and sits on the board of nazi publications IS A NAZI.[/quote]
I literally listed a bunch of people the Nazi's didn't like for a reason. And yet... you're the one calling people *literal* Nazis but only applying it for Anti-Semites. You are the one calling people Nazis for some transitive notion of evil. You are the one doing exactly what they do on RPGNet. Again the whole point of this thread is to ignite YOU on this basis.
Now you're calling me an SJW (which is pretty bad in an of itself). Who here is talking in Good faith? If you wanna Ban me, that's on you, Mr. Free Speech. I'm not a Nazi, I'm not Anti-Semitic. I'm *am* Anti-SJW...
SO if you're gonna ban me - you're doing it for YOUR personal issues.
Pundit hasn't called anyone a Nazi.
Some forum posters seem intent on portraying themselves as Nazi sympathizers. Which is a choice, I guess.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 03:51:25 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:26:44 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 03:17:42 PMThe SJWs are not lying, they believe that you are a literal Nazi. Yet you throw around the exact same accusation and then expect everyone to believe you but not believe them.
And I'm not saying that Barker wasn't a Nazi, I'm just saying that you shouldn't be so quick and eager to make that accusation considering how many have done the same thing to you.
I've provided proof that Barker was a Nazi. The proof is beyond incontrovertible at this point. Anyone pretending that "it could all be a hoax" is either a moron or a Nazi.
Which one are you?
You think Barker is a Nazi because he fulfills the criteria that you have for what a Nazi is.
The SJWs believe you are a Nazi because you fulfills the criteria that they have for what a Nazi is.
Yes, correct. And someone who isn't retarded could look at those criteria in each case, and judge which one REALLY qualifies for the definition of a Nazi, and thus condemn one while ridiculing the people making the other accusation. Shall we look at the evidence, cretin?
RPGPundit evidence for barker: he was a member of the board of a major Nazi pseudo-academic holocaust-denial publication. He wrote an epic novel about how awesome nazis are and how he wishes nazis would take over the world, which he then published with the biggest Nazi publishing house in America at the time.
SJWs evidence for Pundit: he sometimes says mean words on the internet! He routinely stands up for Israel, but right-wing people standing up for israel doesn't mean they aren't nazis! He likes the US Founding fathers and they were all nazis.
Go on, little boy: look at the evidence of each, and determine which one is a good definition and which is a bad definition. Instead of, you know, saying "well we can't possibly know so WELCOME TO THE HOBBY TO OUR NEW NAZI ALLIES"?
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:52:42 PM
How the fuck does me calling Barker, who was a NAZI, a Nazi get me to call people on my own forum Nazis, unless they're being nazis? Or Sympathizers, unless they're being sympathizers?
Who the fuck needs to simp for the dude who spent decades of his life secretly writing for and assisting Nazi publications?
Your entire argument is pathetic. It's based on the idea that I'll do things because the SJWs want me to do something. It ignores that I've had an anti-Nazi position on this forum SINCE DAY 1.
So try again, dipshit: what do they accomplish by me standing up for my own principles and taking the shocking position of "nazis bad"?
Because I can definitely see what they gain from manipulating half-globed morons to say "no maybe nazis aren't bad!! not if the left likes them".
They accomplish exactly this point right here - where you play their pussy-ass Insinuation Game for the purpose of Virtue Signalling.
YOU'RE DOING IT RIGHT NOW. My DM's are blowing up RIGHT NOW because of this impass and your accusations because you won't simply say - "Yeah he's an Anti-Semite. Now go fuck yourself." to the actual SJW's that want you to argue this Nazi bullshit thing.
But you're so dick-hard about calling him a Nazi then doing the SJW Transitive Evil Manuever - you're sitting there willing to call other people who see nuance in there. You call me a simp? FOR WHO? Barker is dead. I don't play Tekumel. I don't know anyone from the Tekumel Foundation. I'm merely calling out Tubesock for the intentional creation of this thread to do what's happening right now.
So again - do what you feel you need to do. I'm not a Nazi, I'm not an Anti-Semite. But I sure as fuck ain't going to stand by and not answer to those kinds of insinuations. SO YOU need to define what a Nazi is and stick to your fucking gun's, son. If I resemble that to you - then do what you gotta do.
Otherwise my suggestion you see Tubesock and this for what it is before you play the insinuation game. That's their rabbit hole. If you're down with that, then you know what you have to do. But hey, I get it, I'm part Japanese... we have a history with the Nazi's. LOL.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 03:56:12 PM
Pundit hasn't called anyone a Nazi.
Some forum posters seem intent on portraying themselves as Nazi sympathizers. Which is a choice, I guess.
No, they are not portraying that, unless that is what you want to see. They would have to be pointing out how they agree with things Barker did or wrote on the matter to be that. I think they are taking being contrarian and skeptical of reporting to the fence, but sympathizer? No.
Yeah I think there's some nuance here for people who are familiar with M.A.R. Barker's work from way back, which is, that we probably all thought he was a bit of a crazy weirdo who let loose a lot of antisocial ideas in his writing, and that possibly his personal life was a little or a lot fucked up as well.
I never heard about this pseudonymous work before today, but without looking into it myself at all, I'd immediately believe 'well this is the guy who wrote about sex sacrificing kids to insect demon gods, of course he'd write something fetishizing Nazis.'
I don't even understand why this is eyebrow-raising, but inasmuch as this thread was started by a dumb and predictable leftist troll, I guess it's produced desirable and unexpected results.
Thank you! You said that very clearly.
Ahem.
Before people start throwing around 'You're a Nazi! And YOU'RE a Nazi!'... remember that this is one of the left's pride-and-joy tactics: slapping the 'unforgiveable' label on anyone who breaks the narrative.
Remember: they've smeared everyone from Jordan Peterson to Pundit himself as a Nazi.
Ask yourself the age old question: who profits?
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 12:50:29 PM
Ok, but in this case it means sitting in an an advisory position on a journal of Holocaust deniers. Like, we can argue about whether lots of other things are anti-Semitic, but I think that should be an easy one.
And I guess we're just going to ignore Spinachcat defending ironic Nazism, ignoring the fact that Barker's book was printed by actual neo-Nazis who profit from its sales. That's fine and not at all concerning.
Neo-Nazis are fighting Russians now who, as we all know, are literally worse then Nazis.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 21, 2022, 04:11:28 PM
Ahem.
Before people start throwing around 'You're a Nazi! And YOU'RE a Nazi!'... remember that this is one of the left's pride-and-joy tactics: slapping the 'unforgiveable' label on anyone who breaks the narrative.
Remember: they've smeared everyone from Jordan Peterson to Pundit himself as a Nazi.
Ask yourself the age old question: who profits?
AMAZON!!!! Because they were still selling Turner Diaries till a year ago, and are still selling Mein Kampf. All these newly minted Nazis will need something to read.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:03:48 PM
So your argument is that it's all a hoax? Barker did not write a pro-SS book published by the biggest Nazi publishing house of its age, and serve years on the board of the biggest holocaust-denial Nazi pseudo-academic journal for years? And the Tekumel Foundation didn't cover it up, and the post of them apologizing for covering it up is also a hoax?
Or are you arguing that none of those things matter? And if so is it because you think all those things are good things? Or is it just because you think it's more important to "own the libs" even if it means defending and protecting a literal neo-nazi and the people who profiteered off his work?
I am arguing that the timing is suspect and that we need to look into this rather than just taking it at face value. Non-woke sources and my own digging so far are pointing to very unpleasant connections. But others digging are coming up with slightly different conclusions. I may not agree with those conclusions. But I do not yet discount them.
Here is what we know so far.
Baker sat on a board overseeing some sort of supremacist groups academic papers.
Baker wrote a "what if" sci-fi book that not only follows the ideals of the above group. But was published by that group or an affiliate.
The manuscript was unearthed by someone I see no reason to suspect they are being dishonest or faked it. The pseudonym used for Serpent Walks also fits a small pattern of Baker using historic names. Which makes sense considering his scholarly background.
There are some who keep saying the book is anti-Semitic. But so far glancing through looking for any of this I am not seeing it past the usual depictions of nazi viewpoints you'd expect them to express. So far no different from any other book with nazis in them. But those other books were not published by a supremacist group. (that I know of) But this is rather dry reading so far and it is not a small book.
The foundation apparently did not know about this till a year or three ago. There are valid reasons to not bring it to light once it was known. But there are also valid reasons to air it. Personally I suspect they were stuck in an indecision loop. Especially once they came under attack by the SJWs. All this depends though on the timeline of the foundation learning of the discovery.
Had it been Fox or someone else trotting out this then we both know we'd all be questioning it to Hell and back.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 04:19:04 PM
AMAZON!!!! Because they were still selling Turner Diaries till a year ago, and are still selling Mein Kampf. All these newly minted Nazis will need something to read.
Bet they're still selling Book of Ebon Bindings too, in whatever godawful reprinted versions. Now that M.A.R. Barker is 'important reading' those young Nazis gonna be getting awful confused about how the fuck to go about their Nazi-dom.
And who the fuck would pay $18.95 for a Man of Gold reprint? I bet you can still get the paperback somewhere for a dollar :/
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 04:24:27 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:03:48 PM
So your argument is that it's all a hoax? Barker did not write a pro-SS book published by the biggest Nazi publishing house of its age, and serve years on the board of the biggest holocaust-denial Nazi pseudo-academic journal for years? And the Tekumel Foundation didn't cover it up, and the post of them apologizing for covering it up is also a hoax?
Or are you arguing that none of those things matter? And if so is it because you think all those things are good things? Or is it just because you think it's more important to "own the libs" even if it means defending and protecting a literal neo-nazi and the people who profiteered off his work?
I am arguing that the timing is suspect and that we need to look into this rather than just taking it at face value. Non-woke sources and my own digging so far are pointing to very unpleasant connections. But others digging are coming up with slightly different conclusions. I may not agree with those conclusions. But I do not yet discount them.
Here is what we know so far.
Baker sat on a board overseeing some sort of supremacist groups academic papers.
Baker wrote a "what if" sci-fi book that not only follows the ideals of the above group. But was published by that group or an affiliate.
The manuscript was unearthed by someone I see no reason to suspect they are being dishonest or faked it. The pseudonym used for Serpent Walks also fits a small pattern of Baker using historic names. Which makes sense considering his scholarly background.
There are some who keep saying the book is anti-Semitic. But so far glancing through looking for any of this I am not seeing it past the usual depictions of nazi viewpoints you'd expect them to express. So far no different from any other book with nazis in them. But those other books were not published by a supremacist group. (that I know of) But this is rather dry reading so far and it is not a small book.
The foundation apparently did not know about this till a year or three ago. There are valid reasons to not bring it to light once it was known. But there are also valid reasons to air it. Personally I suspect they were stuck in an indecision loop. Especially once they came under attack by the SJWs. All this depends though on the timeline of the foundation learning of the discovery.
Had it been Fox or someone else trotting out this then we both know we'd all be questioning it to Hell and back.
But why is any of this important, or even worth looking into? Was M.A.R. Barker a weirdo and probably a creep? Even just reading his books you know the answer is yes, and that he was probably pretty crazy, and if this is the worst anyone could do, it's not really worse than whatever the fuck he wrote openly.
I know 'writing weird shit about Nazis' is somehow supposed to be worse than 'writing weird shit about sacrificing kids to insect demons in strangely elaborate rituals written with voyeuristic detail,' but I can't really see how or why.
Breaking News: John Norman was a Nazi :(
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on March 21, 2022, 03:22:23 PM
TL:DR
All I want to know is, is Empire of the Petal Throne now badwrongfun or not?
Its been that for the 90s and current iterations of the moral outrage brigade... so... yes? 8)
Greetings!
The correct response to this all would have been "I don't care about Barker. Tekumel is great! GTFO."
This whole thread would have died quickly.
It is interesting and laughable how fucking Tubesock's little postings here have prodded and incited such drama and tension between Pundit himself and other members here like Tenbones, Hedgehobbit, and others.
It is pretty sad that few here--perhaps especially Pundit himself--can't see that sowing division and conflict is exactly what the SJW's like to do--and exactly what they enjoy doing to a board like this. Tenbones definitely sees this. This is exactly the SJW's fucking game.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 04:24:27 PM
The foundation apparently did not know about this till a year or three ago. There are valid reasons to not bring it to light once it was known. But there are also valid reasons to air it. Personally I suspect they were stuck in an indecision loop. Especially once they came under attack by the SJWs. All this depends though on the timeline of the foundation learning of the discovery.
Had it been Fox or someone else trotting out this then we both know we'd all be questioning it to Hell and back.
If this thread were designed to be discussed in good-faith, which I do *not* believe for a moment it was, then this is my position without knowing or pretending to know any specifics.
It takes no effort from me to presume that the only intention of not airing based on the timeline was "awww fuck, now what?" Because it's my general opinion no one wants to be associated with Nazis/Al-Qaeda/Dogs in the Vinyard players etc. I'm TOTALLY open to someone putting in the time and effort to prove me wrong.
Again the stipulation to all this is the intent of the thread is to put shade on Tekumel and anything associated with it - to cause drama. We should call those attempts out for what they are. We can all have discussions about whether Barker is Al-Qaeda or Nazi or a Dogs in the Vinyard enthusiast (maybe all three)... but ultimately the real question which I asked a long time ago - to what end other than the purposes of discussion? Is the goal here punitive?
Because at that rate - there will be a lot of other things that could go on the Red List - which for me has always served for the purposes of SJW stuff. Not for whatever bad-thing an author has done. But I will further stipulate that I have no say in how that Red List is handled or to what ultimate purpose it exists beyond my own subjective use.
Which ultimately why it becomes a weapon for SJW's to use... as many pointed out long before me.
Quote from: SHARK on March 21, 2022, 04:34:32 PM
Greetings!
The correct response to this all would have been "I don't care about Barker. Tekumel is great! GTFO."
This whole thread would have died quickly.
It is interesting and laughable how fucking Tubesock's little postings here have prodded and incited such drama and tension between Pundit himself and other members here like Tenbones, Hedgehobbit, and others.
It is pretty sad that few here--perhaps especially Pundit himself--can't see that sowing division and conflict is exactly what the SJW's like to do--and exactly what they enjoy doing to a board like this. Tenbones definitely sees this. This is exactly the SJW's fucking game.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Thank you - that was the point of my demonstration.
/bows graciously.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 04:08:53 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 03:56:12 PM
Pundit hasn't called anyone a Nazi.
Some forum posters seem intent on portraying themselves as Nazi sympathizers. Which is a choice, I guess.
No, they are not portraying that, unless that is what you want to see. They would have to be pointing out how they agree with things Barker did or wrote on the matter to be that. I think they are taking being contrarian and skeptical of reporting to the fence, but sympathizer? No.
If being contrarian puts you on the side of Nazis, you lack an understanding of what two reasonable poles of opinion are.
I am still mulling over Spinachcat's assertion that the white people are the real victims here, and that in light of the revelation that Barker was a Nazi, what we really need is a new publisher for Tekumel.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 04:38:23 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 04:08:53 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 03:56:12 PM
Pundit hasn't called anyone a Nazi.
Some forum posters seem intent on portraying themselves as Nazi sympathizers. Which is a choice, I guess.
No, they are not portraying that, unless that is what you want to see. They would have to be pointing out how they agree with things Barker did or wrote on the matter to be that. I think they are taking being contrarian and skeptical of reporting to the fence, but sympathizer? No.
If being contrarian puts you on the side of Nazis, you lack an understanding of what two reasonable poles of opinion are.
I am still mulling over Spinachcat's assertion that the white people are the real victims here, and that in light of the revelation that Barker was a Nazi, what we really need is a new publisher for Tekumel.
The problem with seeing discussions as a binary, means you have to be on a side. I can see clear as day that was never a thing. People like you do all they can to paint a narrative non stop. People wanting to know more, seem skeptical, etc are not on the side of Nazis. That is the point of view of a child.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:43:25 PM
FACT: Barker wrote a fan-fiction novel about the SS being incredible heroes who will come back to take over the world because the aryans are the master race, and go on to exterminate the non-aryan vermin especially the evil jews.
Fantasy writers must be held to account for their works of fiction!
To do anything else would be madness
Yeah, what the world really needs is a new publisher for Book of Ebon Bindings, and a reprint of Swords & Glory Vol. 1.
The world is crying out for these things right now like it never has before, and without a new publisher, we'll all be on 'the wrong side of history.'
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2022, 04:42:08 PM
Fantasy writers must be held to account for their works of fiction!
To do anything else would be madness
M.A.R. Barker should be held to account that nothing he wrote after Flamesong was popular enough to be downloaded easily and for free. Because I'd sort of like to read 'Lords of Tsámra' just to see how bad it is, but I refuse to pay more than $0.00.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 04:42:02 PM
The problem with seeing discussions as a binary, means you have to be on a side. I can see clear as day that was never a thing. People like you do all they can to paint a narrative non stop. People wanting to know more, seem skeptical, etc are not on the side of Nazis. That is the point of view of a child.
I didn't tell anyone that they had to pick a side. I'm saying, if you picked a side, and it's the Nazi side, you done fucked up. I used the phrase reasonable poles of opinion; people can have opposing views, different degrees of opposing views. You can choose different poles to disagree over. But if you find yourself defending Nazis, you are not good at having opinions.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 04:51:03 PM
I didn't tell anyone that they had to pick a side. I'm saying, if you picked a side, and it's the Nazi side, you done fucked up.
What's your opinion on the literary worth of Flamesong? Or the 'deep role play value' of Book of Ebon Bindings? Or the overall 'gaming experience' presented by Swords & Glory?
I need to know if you're truly on the right side of history here before we can discuss the political worth of Serpent's Walk or whatever the fuck is supposedly being discussed in this thread.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 04:51:03 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 04:42:02 PM
The problem with seeing discussions as a binary, means you have to be on a side. I can see clear as day that was never a thing. People like you do all they can to paint a narrative non stop. People wanting to know more, seem skeptical, etc are not on the side of Nazis. That is the point of view of a child.
I didn't tell anyone that they had to pick a side. I'm saying, if you picked a side, and it's the Nazi side, you done fucked up. I used the phrase reasonable poles of opinion; people can have opposing views, different degrees of opposing views. You can choose different poles to disagree over. But if you find yourself defending Nazis, you are not good at having opinions.
No one defended the guy. All I saw was some people who did not care to ban a dead dude horrible as he may be. Others who wanted more info (I suspect because they were fans and wanted the proof to be absolute before they judged). A couple, who I suspect had a hard time believing he was a nazi wanted to know if he had some other motivation than what appeared obvious. No one defended him. At least in no way beyond what would be asking for evidence in court. No one picked a Nazi side. You keep saying it as if it happened.
You pick the Arduin Grimoire side, you on the wrong side of history :(
Quote from: SHARK on March 21, 2022, 04:34:32 PMThe correct response to this all would have been "I don't care about Barker. Tekumel is great! GTFO."
I don't care about Barker, but Tekumel is a terrible setting. It is so complicated that there are less than ten people on Earth who can actually run it correctly. All these new Nazis that rush to pick up Tekumel will be sorely disappointed.
OTOH, searches for Serpent's Walk are up.
Quote from: yancy on March 21, 2022, 04:29:30 PM
But why is any of this important, or even worth looking into? Was M.A.R. Barker a weirdo and probably a creep? Even just reading his books you know the answer is yes, and that he was probably pretty crazy, and if this is the worst anyone could do, it's not really worse than whatever the fuck he wrote openly.
I know 'writing weird shit about Nazis' is somehow supposed to be worse than 'writing weird shit about sacrificing kids to insect demons in strangely elaborate rituals written with voyeuristic detail,' but I can't really see how or why.
Breaking News: John Norman was a Nazi :(
1: Its worth looking into because the woke are involved and that makes anything possibly suspect until shown to be not. I do not believe in blindly believing a claim. And I've been guilty of that before myself when I failed to investigate myself.
Bakers writing is actually fairly tame. He draws heavily on historical data and presents it in a surprisingly bland manner. Even the nudity and such is presented in the blandest and mundane ways predominantly. Barker draws well from say John Carter of Mars which does exactly the same. If anything his writing tends to be the exact opposite of weird or even creepy. Least what all I have seen so far which comprises the Adventures series and part of the boxed set that backed it. Which I am still missing parts of I think. So if he was writing about sacrificing kids to demons in lurid grotesque details. I missed it?
2: its not that he wrote a "What if" story. Its that he wrote a "what if" story published by a supremacist group. We'd be in the same conundrum if say Man of Gold had been published by them as well. It puts an unpleasant spin on things. Had he gotten it published by anyone else it would be just one amidst dozens of these "what if" books. But Barker did not.
3: You monster! 8)
x: The weird thing is that all this feels so at odds with Tekumel which is just short of an anti-white supremacist setting.
LMAO @ anyone trynna blame me for their own stupid posts
I 100% agree with Pundit here, and I NEVER agree with him. Y'all lookin like straight clowns.
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/LJemLPJs6dBhm/giphy.gif?cid=790b761193e3ac37baa579e73f0b1a8234836c0b12694f37&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 04:42:02 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 04:38:23 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 04:08:53 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 03:56:12 PM
Pundit hasn't called anyone a Nazi.
Some forum posters seem intent on portraying themselves as Nazi sympathizers. Which is a choice, I guess.
No, they are not portraying that, unless that is what you want to see. They would have to be pointing out how they agree with things Barker did or wrote on the matter to be that. I think they are taking being contrarian and skeptical of reporting to the fence, but sympathizer? No.
If being contrarian puts you on the side of Nazis, you lack an understanding of what two reasonable poles of opinion are.
I am still mulling over Spinachcat's assertion that the white people are the real victims here, and that in light of the revelation that Barker was a Nazi, what we really need is a new publisher for Tekumel.
The problem with seeing discussions as a binary, means you have to be on a side. I can see clear as day that was never a thing. People like you do all they can to paint a narrative non stop. People wanting to know more, seem skeptical, etc are not on the side of Nazis. That is the point of view of a child.
While I can see what you're getting at, I would say there is a binary distinction; you either believe in individual human rights or you don't.
I mean, sure there are differences between Nazism, Fascism, Communism, and Oligarchy, but these all boil down to valuing unrestrained political power over emphasizing human rights. The only real difference between them is rhetoric, with anti-semitism being a Nazi favorite. And there's a reason for that, too, I suppose; Nazism worships the ethnic state, and the Jewish diaspora exists as a usually successful community with a unique identity while not having an ethnic state.
Jews drive Nazis nuts because they are literally the glitch in the Matrix which breaks the illusion that Nationalism solves all problems.
Otherwise, I confess almost complete ignorance of Barker's work. That said, I think that the "controversy" around it can't possibly manage to do good. His work has already basically been flushed down the toilet bowl of time. If he was a Nazi, bringing this up has the potential to revive his work for all the wrong reasons. If he wasn't a Nazi, then this is defaming the legacy of a dead man who can't defend himself.
Either way, the correct course of action is to let the legacy of a dead man be. I have no respect for the man--I think he was a frothing moron--but I also have no desire to condone anyone pissing on his grave for the vapid adulation of their peers. Let dead and irrelevant men remain dead and irrelevant.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 05:02:00 PM
No one defended the guy. All I saw was some people who did not care to ban a dead dude horrible as he may be. Others who wanted more info (I suspect because they were fans and wanted the proof to be absolute before they judged). A couple, who I suspect had a hard time believing he was a nazi wanted to know if he had some other motivation than what appeared obvious. No one defended him. At least in no way beyond what would be asking for evidence in court. No one picked a Nazi side. You keep saying it as if it happened.
No one defending the guy:
Quote from: Spinachcat on March 20, 2022, 08:54:54 PM
Remember kids, the only allowable bigotry is the non-stop hatred of the White race. For equality!
...
As for MAR Barker, Tekumel truly deserves a resurgence, but that would require a new IP owner and a top author to champion the IP.
C'mon, oggshmash. Just give hatred of non-white peoples a chance, for equality. So that's "as for MAR Barker." Make of that what you will.
Quote from: Fheredin on March 21, 2022, 05:31:27 PM
Either way, the correct course of action is to let the legacy of a dead man be. I have no respect for the man--I think he was a frothing moron--but I also have no desire to condone anyone pissing on his grave for the vapid adulation of their peers. Let dead and irrelevant men remain dead and irrelevant.
I just started delving into my POD copy of Empire of the Petal Throne last year, so for me, this is a personal and immediate challenge. If it's irrelevant to you, so be it. But don't become part of the crowd intent on hiding the ugly truth.
Quote from: Fheredin on March 21, 2022, 05:31:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 04:42:02 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 04:38:23 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 04:08:53 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 03:56:12 PM
Pundit hasn't called anyone a Nazi.
Some forum posters seem intent on portraying themselves as Nazi sympathizers. Which is a choice, I guess.
No, they are not portraying that, unless that is what you want to see. They would have to be pointing out how they agree with things Barker did or wrote on the matter to be that. I think they are taking being contrarian and skeptical of reporting to the fence, but sympathizer? No.
If being contrarian puts you on the side of Nazis, you lack an understanding of what two reasonable poles of opinion are.
I am still mulling over Spinachcat's assertion that the white people are the real victims here, and that in light of the revelation that Barker was a Nazi, what we really need is a new publisher for Tekumel.
The problem with seeing discussions as a binary, means you have to be on a side. I can see clear as day that was never a thing. People like you do all they can to paint a narrative non stop. People wanting to know more, seem skeptical, etc are not on the side of Nazis. That is the point of view of a child.
While I can see what you're getting at, I would say there is a binary distinction; you either believe in individual human rights or you don't.
I mean, sure there are differences between Nazism, Fascism, Communism, and Oligarchy, but these all boil down to valuing unrestrained political power over emphasizing human rights. The only real difference between them is rhetoric, with anti-semitism being a Nazi favorite. And there's a reason for that, too, I suppose; Nazism worships the ethnic state, and the Jewish diaspora exists as a usually successful community with a unique identity while not having an ethnic state.
Jews drive Nazis nuts because they are literally the glitch in the Matrix which breaks the illusion that Nationalism solves all problems.
Otherwise, I confess almost complete ignorance of Barker's work. That said, I think that the "controversy" around it can't possibly manage to do good. His work has already basically been flushed down the toilet bowl of time. If he was a Nazi, bringing this up has the potential to revive his work for all the wrong reasons. If he wasn't a Nazi, then this is defaming the legacy of a dead man who can't defend himself.
Either way, the correct course of action is to let the legacy of a dead man be. I have no respect for the man--I think he was a frothing moron--but I also have no desire to condone anyone pissing on his grave for the vapid adulation of their peers. Let dead and irrelevant men remain dead and irrelevant.
The thing is...there has been NO DISCUSSION on nazism as a binary. That was my point. There were people all over the place about how to take the reported info and discussions around that, and they were in several different directions. I agree that individual rights or not is a binary...but that has not been the topic people have been going back and forth here about, at all.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 05:35:33 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 05:02:00 PM
No one defended the guy. All I saw was some people who did not care to ban a dead dude horrible as he may be. Others who wanted more info (I suspect because they were fans and wanted the proof to be absolute before they judged). A couple, who I suspect had a hard time believing he was a nazi wanted to know if he had some other motivation than what appeared obvious. No one defended him. At least in no way beyond what would be asking for evidence in court. No one picked a Nazi side. You keep saying it as if it happened.
No one defending the guy:
Quote from: Spinachcat on March 20, 2022, 08:54:54 PM
Remember kids, the only allowable bigotry is the non-stop hatred of the White race. For equality!
...
As for MAR Barker, Tekumel truly deserves a resurgence, but that would require a new IP owner and a top author to champion the IP.
C'mon, oggshmash. Just give hatred of non-white peoples a chance, for equality. So that's "as for MAR Barker." Make of that what you will.
Quote from: Fheredin on March 21, 2022, 05:31:27 PM
Either way, the correct course of action is to let the legacy of a dead man be. I have no respect for the man--I think he was a frothing moron--but I also have no desire to condone anyone pissing on his grave for the vapid adulation of their peers. Let dead and irrelevant men remain dead and irrelevant.
I just started delving into my POD copy of Empire of the Petal Throne last year, so for me, this is a personal and immediate challenge. If it's irrelevant to you, so be it. But don't become part of the crowd intent on hiding the ugly truth.
So that was a defense of his Nazi ways? But sorry you seem to be a actual financial supporter of a nazi.
I simply noted that there is a threshold of support Nazism one does not cross, and then the Sorites paradox was fallaciously invoked and then a further implication was made that I was engaging in a false dichotomy. Yet the dichotomy in question was posed by my critic, not by me.
I can't say what the exact, mathematical balance point of "too Nazi" is, but ignoring bald evidence that MAR Barker was a Nazi sympathizer and then defending him as some kind of flood dam against woke-ism is clearly over the fence. He was not an FBI agent, he was a Nazi who wrote Nazi stories about Nazis , published by Nazis. He sat in an advisory position on a journal of Holocaust denial, which makes him personally instrumental in advancing Holocaust denial. When he became Muslim, he probably named himself as a nod to Hitler's lament about the Battle of Tours and its effect on the Christianization and de-Islamification of Europe. Looking for nuance here is like trying to find the coolest spot to sit on the Sun.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 05:43:35 PM
But sorry you seem to be a actual financial supporter of a nazi.
Well, a cover-upper of a Nazi, but yes. As I said already, this is immediate and personal to me. I am not pleased.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 05:22:15 PM
LMAO @ anyone trynna blame me for their own stupid posts
I 100% agree with Pundit here, and I NEVER agree with him. Y'all lookin like straight clowns.
Well thankfully we're not gay clowns. But in context you're meaning that being a straight is bad... which further underscores my belief in your unconscious bias towards homoeroticism.
Or are you saying my reading comprehension is still bad?
I'm still waiting for your apology for you being racist to me.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 05:45:35 PM
I simply noted that there is a threshold of support Nazism one does not cross, and then the Sorites paradox was fallaciously invoked and then a further implication was made that I was engaging in a false dichotomy. Yet the dichotomy in question was posed by my critic, not by me.
I can't say what the exact, mathematical balance point of "too Nazi" is, but ignoring bald evidence that MAR Barker was a Nazi sympathizer and then defending him as some kind of flood dam against woke-ism is clearly over the fence. He was not an FBI agent, he was a Nazi who wrote Nazi stories about Nazis , published by Nazis. He sat in an advisory position on a journal of Holocaust denial, which makes him personally instrumental in advancing Holocaust denial. When he became Muslim, he probably named himself as a nod to Hitler's lament about the Battle of Tours and its effect on the Christianization and de-Islamification of Europe. Looking for nuance here is like trying to find the coolest spot to sit on the Sun.
No need to explain to me, I was sold back on page one with a educated white dude converting to Islam as an adult, and put him in the red on page 2. I just did not see too much support of his position as much as people wanting more proof (this is the frigging internet) that he was a nazi, and some in denial about him being a nazi. Others who were more or less meh about the dead dude. No one suggested the FBI had him doing it other than Tuber. If not rushing to condemn a dead man makes some of these dudes nazi sympathizers to you, so be it.
QuoteWell, a cover-upper of a Nazi, but yes. As I said already, this is immediate and personal to me. I am not pleased.
That sucks. I know next to nothing about his work, but I was under the impression that setting was from a very non euro perspective. It seems this guy was an absolute master of disguise.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 05:50:44 PM
No need to explain to me, I was sold back on page one with a educated white dude converting to Islam as an adult, and put him in the red on page 2. I just did not see too much support of his position as much as people wanting more proof (this is the frigging internet) that he was a nazi, and some in denial about him being a nazi. Others who were more or less meh about the dead dude. No one suggested the FBI had him doing it other than Tuber. If not rushing to condemn a dead man makes some of these dudes nazi sympathizers to you, so be it.
Omega also suggested MAR Barker may have been involved in some kind of deep undercover... something.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 05:45:35 PM
Well, a cover-upper of a Nazi, but yes. As I said already, this is immediate and personal to me. I am not pleased.
Well don't read your 'POD copy' of Empire of the Petal Throne then, your challenge will be overcome, or dodged, depending on whether you prefer to view yourself as a conscientious objector, or sniveling coward. If you had a book, I guess you could take the extra step and burn it, but in this case, formatting the hard drive containing it should suffice.
I guess another way to look at things is, if you have the perception that people rather side with Nazis over woke folks, you might want to start to worry. I never got that vibe, more the hesitant to cancel anyone for anything vibe. But perception is reality for who ever has a that point of view I guess.
God damn this thread has levels of dumb that I no longer have levels of beer to keep up with :(
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 05:53:19 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 05:50:44 PM
No need to explain to me, I was sold back on page one with a educated white dude converting to Islam as an adult, and put him in the red on page 2. I just did not see too much support of his position as much as people wanting more proof (this is the frigging internet) that he was a nazi, and some in denial about him being a nazi. Others who were more or less meh about the dead dude. No one suggested the FBI had him doing it other than Tuber. If not rushing to condemn a dead man makes some of these dudes nazi sympathizers to you, so be it.
Omega also suggested MAR Barker may have been involved in some kind of deep undercover... something.
He never implied the FBI or outside influence, I imagine, like you he probably had some of the dude's work in his possession and was looking for some reason a guy with that outward image would do such a thing. Obviously it was not the FBI, because they did not try to get him to buy or sell an illegal firearm to anyone. Or kidnap people. Or plan bombings.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 05:22:15 PMI 100% agree with Pundit here, and I NEVER agree with him. Y'all lookin like straight clowns.
Throughout this thread, Pundit has been strawmanning people's arguments, refusing to admit anyone might have a point, and engaging in petty name calling and accusations of transitive Nazi-ism.
Congratulations, the one time you agree with Pundit is when he's been a complete ass.
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 05:06:23 PM
So if he was writing about sacrificing kids to demons in lurid grotesque details. I missed it?
I haven't read the actual role-playing games in many years, but I don't recall there being much of that there at all. There's hints of weirdness in the DAW paperbacks, but the most concentrated distillation of that sort of shit is in Book of Ebon Bindings, which is all descriptions of demon worship and rituals.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 05:57:27 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 05:22:15 PMI 100% agree with Pundit here, and I NEVER agree with him. Y'all lookin like straight clowns.
Throughout this thread, Pundit has been strawmanning people's arguments, refusing to admit anyone might have a point, and engaging in petty name calling and accusations of transitive Nazi-ism.
Congratulations, the one time you agree with Pundit is when he's been a complete ass.
Bet Pundit will feel pretty proud to be in such exquisite company \o/
Quote from: yancy on March 21, 2022, 05:59:47 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 05:06:23 PM
So if he was writing about sacrificing kids to demons in lurid grotesque details. I missed it?
I haven't read the actual role-playing games in many years, but I don't recall there being much of that there at all. There's hints of weirdness in the DAW paperbacks, but the most concentrated distillation of that sort of shit is in Book of Ebon Bindings, which is all descriptions of demon worship and rituals.
I am guessing these descriptions were lurid and shocking (as in make you think a full on oddjob must have cooked it up)?
Quote from: pawsplay on March 21, 2022, 05:53:19 PM
Omega also suggested MAR Barker may have been involved in some kind of deep undercover... something.
Its within the realm of possibility as it has been done before. Even if only to keep tabs on a group.
Vanishingly unlikely in this case.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 05:56:52 PM
He never implied the FBI or outside influence, I imagine, like you he probably had some of the dude's work in his possession and was looking for some reason a guy with that outward image would do such a thing. Obviously it was not the FBI, because they did not try to get him to buy or sell an illegal firearm to anyone. Or kidnap people. Or plan bombings.
I thought of the infiltration/subversion angle because I've seen it before. Sometimes for altruistic reasons. More often for very not good reasons.
I do not think it likely. But it was worth considering as the data came in and because this whole revelation of his supremacist background is at odds with what I knew of Barker and his writings up to that point.
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 06:40:07 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 05:56:52 PM
He never implied the FBI or outside influence, I imagine, like you he probably had some of the dude's work in his possession and was looking for some reason a guy with that outward image would do such a thing. Obviously it was not the FBI, because they did not try to get him to buy or sell an illegal firearm to anyone. Or kidnap people. Or plan bombings.
I thought of the infiltration/subversion angle because I've seen it before. Sometimes for altruistic reasons. More often for very not good reasons.
I do not think it likely. But it was worth considering as the data came in and because this whole revelation of his supremacist background is at odds with what I knew of Barker and his writings up to that point.
I took your suggestion to mean he was trying some sort of "look under the rug" on his own, sort of like the lady who wrote the book nickled and dimed, walk with the proles and see what was going on. So oops on me I guess, though I did get from that you were casting out any sort of explanation for what looked to be inexplicable behavior (well other than what it was anyway).
Quote from: yancy on March 21, 2022, 05:59:47 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 05:06:23 PM
So if he was writing about sacrificing kids to demons in lurid grotesque details. I missed it?
I haven't read the actual role-playing games in many years, but I don't recall there being much of that there at all. There's hints of weirdness in the DAW paperbacks, but the most concentrated distillation of that sort of shit is in Book of Ebon Bindings, which is all descriptions of demon worship and rituals.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 06:01:51 PM
I am guessing these descriptions were lurid and shocking (as in make you think a full on oddjob must have cooked it up)?
One of my players had a copy of Ebon Bindings. If recall correctly the very first of the gods mentioned. Orogob? That one was mildly lurid. But tame in comparison to whats gone before or after. Gereshmal? Has the sacrifice of a baby. A bit gruesome. Here and there the term youth is used. But the ages seem to range from just into adulthood to just into puberty and so on. Overall the book does not go into as much detail on the sacrifices other than a few spots of note on the method of death required. Though these are not as prevalent as one would expect.
YMMV of course but having read Lovecraft, Ashton, Howard, Bloch and others Barkers stuff is mild overall and would fit right in.
The one thing I find of particular interest is just how hard it is to summon these beings. That and how consistent and in character tone the writing maintains overall. No easy task. I've used that technique myself in my own books.
Greetings!
Very real Nazis being *crushed* by the Red Army, marching victoriously on Berlin.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 06:45:21 PM
I took your suggestion to mean he was trying some sort of "look under the rug" on his own, sort of like the lady who wrote the book nickled and dimed, walk with the proles and see what was going on. So oops on me I guess, though I did get from that you were casting out any sort of explanation for what looked to be inexplicable behavior (well other than what it was anyway).
That is an angle I actually had not considered. Like researching for a book. But considering everything else that just does not seem likely either. Unless he did the research and after used the group to publish as some sort of irony or in-joke. Or the bitter irony that this was the only people he could find to publish the book. Maybe if he was desperate for cash?
Much like the infiltration angle. Not likely.
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2022, 07:51:48 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 06:45:21 PM
I took your suggestion to mean he was trying some sort of "look under the rug" on his own, sort of like the lady who wrote the book nickled and dimed, walk with the proles and see what was going on. So oops on me I guess, though I did get from that you were casting out any sort of explanation for what looked to be inexplicable behavior (well other than what it was anyway).
That is an angle I actually had not considered. Like researching for a book. But considering everything else that just does not seem likely either. Unless he did the research and after used the group to publish as some sort of irony or in-joke. Or the bitter irony that this was the only people he could find to publish the book. Maybe if he was desperate for cash?
Much like the infiltration angle. Not likely.
Oh, I think the guy was just a Nazi. But all I know about him is the bit I read about him and the stuff around this controversy. I am sure if I had used his stuff and liked it for years, I might look for reasons he did what he did. The lady who wrote nickeled and Dimed was not exactly presenting the entire story any way, and I have a suspicion her point of view was the same one she started with and just "went under cover" to give her predetermined opinion more validity.
He was still a sitting professor wasn't he? I have doubts a full time professor needed the cash. But that would be quite the angle, sort of like the famous author writing porn and gay porn to pay the bills between book deals (made the mistake of going down a Joe Rogan Rabbit hole around the Utah housewife who made a mint in her spare time writing big foot porn), but I just can not see anyone writing a nazi good guys novel without having lots of the same ideas they had.
Jesus Christ is this train wreck still going on? He's dead, no one publishing his work is giving that money to your local group of neo-nazi dip shits. Oh some people may have sat on this information for a while? And? Who's surprised. I can think of far worse things.
Everyone that has ever produced any interesting work has been some sort of bastard or another. Sky blue, water wet, news at 10.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 05:57:27 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 05:22:15 PMI 100% agree with Pundit here, and I NEVER agree with him. Y'all lookin like straight clowns.
Throughout this thread, Pundit has been strawmanning people's arguments, refusing to admit anyone might have a point, and engaging in petty name calling and accusations of transitive Nazi-ism.
Congratulations, the one time you agree with Pundit is when he's been a complete ass.
Its another Tuesday at therpgsite
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 08:11:40 PMbut I just can not see anyone writing a nazi good guys novel without having lots of the same ideas they had.
Thought experiments are the most often ones. What if the south won the Civil War? What if Japan and Germany defeated the US, What if Rome never fell. They pop up quite often in comics too for alternate history excursions. They have the same appeal as extrapolating say what if War of the Worlds happened and the world that would develop after. Heraclea is one I read in school, also by a famous scholar. Presenting that all the deeds that became the legends of Hercules were really done by a girl.
In Barkers book so far I am not sure if they are presented as the good guys yet. The initial presentation has no hints of it. The main characters are just mercenaries. But by the end. Yes. They win. Or more aptly are well on the way to that. The characters outlook on Jews is not what was expecting. At the end its more like disgust or dissapointment that the Jews did not live up to their own ideals and ended up treating Palestine as badly as Germany did them. Least that is what Im seeing from an exerp of the last chapter. Yet they seem ok with working with Jewish mercs long as they dont turn on them. Which they do apparently.
I may dig more to see what else is said in it. Also the prose reads like something written in the 60s or 70s. Not 1991... Maybe that was deliberate. Or maybe just Barkers style.
Im not sure there is much pint in digging any further though. Serpent's Walk is very obviously an agenda piece - and weirdly mild as it feels - it is still an agenda piece.
Unfortunately I wonder if Pundit understands how Cocksuck Soyarmy has completely and throughly played him.
I wonder if he cares remotely that he might lose members of his forum. Or that he is behaving exactly like the regressive repressive Wokescolds like other forums like Rpg.net.
Personal admission I have heard of Tekumal the rpg. Came close to joining a game. It never really took off in my neck of the woods beaten soundly by D&D. I'm not a fan of Barker Anti-Semantism I won't call those who pay for or enjoy his products Nazis or those who promote anti-semantism.
Problem is Pundit is so convinced of his side to the point of not being able to see the other side.worse it's like reading one of those sarcastic comments the mods over at Rpg.net or Paizo forums. I'm not seeing any difference at this point really. Either here or on Twitter.
Then again I'm not sure if he remotely cares about chasing away the moderate elements who refuse to kiss his ass. He can surround himself with sycophants I and others like Tenbones are simply not going to do so.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 05:05:15 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 21, 2022, 04:34:32 PMThe correct response to this all would have been "I don't care about Barker. Tekumel is great! GTFO."
I don't care about Barker, but Tekumel is a terrible setting. It is so complicated that there are less than ten people on Earth who can actually run it correctly. All these new Nazis that rush to pick up Tekumel will be sorely disappointed.
OTOH, searches for Serpent's Walk are up.
Well, if this thread accomplished anything it's gotten some publicity for Serpent's Walk.
Good job, Tubesock. I'm sure that wasn't your intention. *wink wink*
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 06:20:31 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 20, 2022, 06:36:58 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2022, 01:55:01 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 20, 2022, 01:23:22 PM
Which is unfortunately all the more reason to not bring this up. Or be locked in indecision. We do not know how much they knew of all this. Or for how long. Especially if Barker was as good at concealing this as it seems.
As said before. Damned if they do, damned if they dont.
This would be a different matter if the foundation was also as bad as Barker. But far as we know. They arent.
Damning them for not dragging out the skeleton in their closet is exactly what the Woke do. Beat on them if they do something wrong. Not for being afraid of the mob. Or just being indecisive about what to do.
THEY DID DO SOMETHING WRONG. They distorted history while protecting a Nazi so that they could keep on making money!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip#:~:text=Operation%20Paperclip%20was%20a%20secret,Europe%2C%20between%201945%20and%201959.
So, we going to ban Tekumel and it's publishers from being mentioned on this site because MAR Barker reportedly wrote a piece of pro-Nazi fiction? I wouldn't want to get banned for mentioning a forbidden topic.
Barker wasn't working on the space program; he was writing weird RPG books while actively concealing that he was also writing nazi novels and acting as an "editor" for their magazine of revisionist holocaust-denying history.
And the Tekumel Foundation, who claim not to be Nazis, hid that fact so they could keep profiting off his works.
That doesn't answer my question.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:32:03 PM
Hitler remarked he would have preferred the Muslims had won the Battle of Tours (732). He said he thought Islam would have been preferable for the "German character," calling Christianity "flabby." (link for context (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours#Adolf_Hitler_on_the_Battle_of_Tours))
Phillip Barker changed his name to Muhammad Abd-al-Rahman Barker when he converted to Islam.
The Muslim leader defeated at the Battle of Tours was Muhammad Abdul Rahman Al-Ghafiqi.
I think it's likely MAR Barker renamed himself after a statement by Hitler to indicate his agreement.
The Muslim defeated at Tours was Abd al-Rahman ibn Abdullah al-Ghafiqi. Abd al-Rahman was a common first name among early Arabs and a common surname now.
You don't need to lie to make Barker look bad.
Quote from: Abraxus on March 21, 2022, 10:13:37 PM
Unfortunately I wonder if Pundit understands how Cocksuck Soyarmy has completely and throughly played him.
I wonder if he cares remotely that he might lose members of his forum. Or that he is behaving exactly like the regressive repressive Wokescolds like other forums like Rpg.net.
Personal admission I have heard of Tekumal the rpg. Came close to joining a game. It never really took off in my neck of the woods beaten soundly by D&D. I'm not a fan of Barker Anti-Semantism I won't call those who pay for or enjoy his products Nazis or those who promote anti-semantism.
Problem is Pundit is so convinced of his side to the point of not being able to see the other side.worse it's like reading one of those sarcastic comments the mods over at Rpg.net or Paizo forums. I'm not seeing any difference at this point really. Either here or on Twitter.
Then again I'm not sure if he remotely cares about chasing away the moderate elements who refuse to kiss his ass. He can surround himself with sycophants I and others like Tenbones are simply not going to do so.
Pundit isn't the one sounding like the regressives at TBP.
The evidence against Barker is pretty damning at this point.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:32:03 PM
Hitler remarked he would have preferred the Muslims had won the Battle of Tours (732). He said he thought Islam would have been preferable for the "German character," calling Christianity "flabby." (link for context (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours#Adolf_Hitler_on_the_Battle_of_Tours))
Phillip Barker changed his name to Muhammad Abd-al-Rahman Barker when he converted to Islam.
The Muslim leader defeated at the Battle of Tours was Muhammad Abdul Rahman Al-Ghafiqi.
I think it's likely MAR Barker renamed himself after a statement by Hitler to indicate his agreement.
This is some next level armchair psychoanalysis of a dead man.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 21, 2022, 10:51:31 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 05:05:15 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 21, 2022, 04:34:32 PMThe correct response to this all would have been "I don't care about Barker. Tekumel is great! GTFO."
I don't care about Barker, but Tekumel is a terrible setting. It is so complicated that there are less than ten people on Earth who can actually run it correctly. All these new Nazis that rush to pick up Tekumel will be sorely disappointed.
OTOH, searches for Serpent's Walk are up.
Well, if this thread accomplished anything it's gotten some publicity for Serpent's Walk.
Good job, Tubesock. I'm sure that wasn't your intention. *wink wink*
Ya got me, I work for National Vanguard Books. Cha-ching!
Quote from: Pat on March 21, 2022, 11:47:40 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 21, 2022, 10:13:37 PM
Unfortunately I wonder if Pundit understands how Cocksuck Soyarmy has completely and throughly played him.
I wonder if he cares remotely that he might lose members of his forum. Or that he is behaving exactly like the regressive repressive Wokescolds like other forums like Rpg.net.
Personal admission I have heard of Tekumal the rpg. Came close to joining a game. It never really took off in my neck of the woods beaten soundly by D&D. I'm not a fan of Barker Anti-Semantism I won't call those who pay for or enjoy his products Nazis or those who promote anti-semantism.
Problem is Pundit is so convinced of his side to the point of not being able to see the other side.worse it's like reading one of those sarcastic comments the mods over at Rpg.net or Paizo forums. I'm not seeing any difference at this point really. Either here or on Twitter.
Then again I'm not sure if he remotely cares about chasing away the moderate elements who refuse to kiss his ass. He can surround himself with sycophants I and others like Tenbones are simply not going to do so.
Pundit isn't the one sounding like the regressives at TBP.
The evidence against Barker is pretty damning at this point.
Yeah, but "they" have to play degrees of seperation now. No one is accusing Tekumel of being pro-Nazi, and the only current "issue" is that the Tekumel society probably knew and didn't say anything.
Not great, but hardly a huge scandal. If we're going to accuse businesses of being cowardly or shady, then everybody stop associating with every business that currently exists, and possibly ever existed.
Tubesock has been trying to get under everyone's skin, and mostly succeeding. I really don't care, except Pundit has poked his nose and, and considering his reaction, I'd like to know if Tekumel is a banned topic due to it's Nazi adjacency. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfhBM_Yay6w)
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:08:30 PMThe problem with all of this is that if Barker had turned out to be a supporter of Al Qaeda instead of a Nazi, you'd be calling for blood.
For my part, I am consistent in my position that I am completely and utterly indifferent to the political positions and personal lives of game writers - and musicians, etc. A search through this forum of my previous comments on similar issues will demonstrate this.
If we discovered that the first manuscript for AD&D1e had been found by Gygax on a trip to Munich where he found it lodged under the bed Hitler had slept on while incarcerated for his failed Beer Hall Putsch, I would shrug with indifference and roll up my character - 3d6 down the line, of course.
And if we looked through that warehouse the US has and found the Ark of the Covenant and under the dust of the first broken tablets of the Noahite Laws was a copy of a collection of Ron Edwards' writings, inspired by God himself, I would still have no interest whatsoever.
The license plates made are just as visible on the backs of vehicles, notwithstanding the fact that some of them will be made by imprisoned child rapists and serial killers.
The art, if it be art, stands independently of the artist.
I had no interest in
Tekumel before all this nonsense, and my interest is decreased nor increased not an iota either way.
The only reason to say differently is to signal your virtue. Pffft.
Quote from: Arkansan on March 22, 2022, 12:19:39 AM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 20, 2022, 07:32:03 PM
Hitler remarked he would have preferred the Muslims had won the Battle of Tours (732). He said he thought Islam would have been preferable for the "German character," calling Christianity "flabby." (link for context (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours#Adolf_Hitler_on_the_Battle_of_Tours))
Phillip Barker changed his name to Muhammad Abd-al-Rahman Barker when he converted to Islam.
The Muslim leader defeated at the Battle of Tours was Muhammad Abdul Rahman Al-Ghafiqi.
I think it's likely MAR Barker renamed himself after a statement by Hitler to indicate his agreement.
This is some next level armchair psychoanalysis of a dead man.
It's not psychoanalysis, but it is the biographical equivalent of p-hacking. With any sufficiently large data set with variables that can be controlled in different ways, you can always find a way to make the data appear to support any pre-determined conclusion. It's a close cousins to trolling social media histories to find statements that can be taken out of context to discredit someone, or another variation on the dogwhistling nonsense, where if you assume secret messages you can decode any text to mean anything you want.
Barker being on the board of a Holocaust denial journal and writing a neo-Nazi fiction is strong evidence. This is garbage.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 21, 2022, 04:11:28 PM
Ahem.
Before people start throwing around 'You're a Nazi! And YOU'RE a Nazi!'... remember that this is one of the left's pride-and-joy tactics: slapping the 'unforgiveable' label on anyone who breaks the narrative.
Remember: they've smeared everyone from Jordan Peterson to Pundit himself as a Nazi.
Ask yourself the age old question: who profits?
But this isn't a smear. This is a guy who literally wrote a neo-nazi novel and served on the board of a major neo-nazi periodical.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 05:57:27 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 21, 2022, 05:22:15 PMI 100% agree with Pundit here, and I NEVER agree with him. Y'all lookin like straight clowns.
Throughout this thread, Pundit has been strawmanning people's arguments, refusing to admit anyone might have a point, and engaging in petty name calling and accusations of transitive Nazi-ism.
Congratulations, the one time you agree with Pundit is when he's been a complete ass.
The only people making asses of themselves here are the ones so scared of SJWs that they're afraid to say "Nazis are bad".
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 22, 2022, 12:38:13 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 21, 2022, 11:47:40 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 21, 2022, 10:13:37 PM
Unfortunately I wonder if Pundit understands how Cocksuck Soyarmy has completely and throughly played him.
I wonder if he cares remotely that he might lose members of his forum. Or that he is behaving exactly like the regressive repressive Wokescolds like other forums like Rpg.net.
Personal admission I have heard of Tekumal the rpg. Came close to joining a game. It never really took off in my neck of the woods beaten soundly by D&D. I'm not a fan of Barker Anti-Semantism I won't call those who pay for or enjoy his products Nazis or those who promote anti-semantism.
Problem is Pundit is so convinced of his side to the point of not being able to see the other side.worse it's like reading one of those sarcastic comments the mods over at Rpg.net or Paizo forums. I'm not seeing any difference at this point really. Either here or on Twitter.
Then again I'm not sure if he remotely cares about chasing away the moderate elements who refuse to kiss his ass. He can surround himself with sycophants I and others like Tenbones are simply not going to do so.
Pundit isn't the one sounding like the regressives at TBP.
The evidence against Barker is pretty damning at this point.
Yeah, but "they" have to play degrees of seperation now. No one is accusing Tekumel of being pro-Nazi, and the only current "issue" is that the Tekumel society probably knew and didn't say anything.
Not great, but hardly a huge scandal. If we're going to accuse businesses of being cowardly or shady, then everybody stop associating with every business that currently exists, and possibly ever existed.
Tubesock has been trying to get under everyone's skin, and mostly succeeding. I really don't care, except Pundit has poked his nose and, and considering his reaction, I'd like to know if Tekumel is a banned topic due to it's Nazi adjacency. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfhBM_Yay6w)
False equivalence. An author who is the reason a foundation exists being on the board of a Holocaust-denying journal and writing neo-Nazi fiction is not "every business that currently exists, or possibly every existed".
It's fine for someone to go "eh, I like Tekumel anyway" or "this doesn't matter to me". The red list isn't a mandate, after all. But it's really bizarre how many people have gone all in denying it matters. This is a big deal, and it casts a long pall on Barker's contributions. That's why the whole thread seems like the distaff counterpart of the Woke reaction to the red list.
I do agree that Tubesock is an ass. But that doesn't change the facts.
Quote from: Abraxus on March 21, 2022, 10:13:37 PM
Unfortunately I wonder if Pundit understands how Cocksuck Soyarmy has completely and throughly played him.
I wonder if he cares remotely that he might lose members of his forum. Or that he is behaving exactly like the regressive repressive Wokescolds like other forums like Rpg.net.
If "nazis are bad" is something that causes people to leave here, good riddance.
And if people are so stupid as to think that saying "nazis are bad" means someone is a 'wokescold' they are too stupid or cowardly for me to want them on my side.
QuotePersonal admission I have heard of Tekumal the rpg. Came close to joining a game. It never really took off in my neck of the woods beaten soundly by D&D. I'm not a fan of Barker Anti-Semantism I won't call those who pay for or enjoy his products Nazis or those who promote anti-semantism.
Problem is Pundit is so convinced of his side to the point of not being able to see the other side.
The other side here is people saying "we should go easy on real nazis because if not the left somehow wins". That side is insane and dangerous.
Quote
Then again I'm not sure if he remotely cares about chasing away the moderate elements who refuse to kiss his ass. He can surround himself with sycophants I and others like Tenbones are simply not going to do so.
No one who thinks they have to go out of their way to excuse or defend Nazis is a "moderate element". They are either sympathetic to Nazi ideas, or they are so hysterically terrified of the left that they are willing to abandon all principles just to contradict "the left". Which means that in their hysteria, they've become exactly like the left (who will, for example, defend and cover for virulent anti-semitism as long as its being done by people on their side).
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 21, 2022, 11:03:55 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 06:20:31 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 20, 2022, 06:36:58 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2022, 01:55:01 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 20, 2022, 01:23:22 PM
Which is unfortunately all the more reason to not bring this up. Or be locked in indecision. We do not know how much they knew of all this. Or for how long. Especially if Barker was as good at concealing this as it seems.
As said before. Damned if they do, damned if they dont.
This would be a different matter if the foundation was also as bad as Barker. But far as we know. They arent.
Damning them for not dragging out the skeleton in their closet is exactly what the Woke do. Beat on them if they do something wrong. Not for being afraid of the mob. Or just being indecisive about what to do.
THEY DID DO SOMETHING WRONG. They distorted history while protecting a Nazi so that they could keep on making money!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip#:~:text=Operation%20Paperclip%20was%20a%20secret,Europe%2C%20between%201945%20and%201959.
So, we going to ban Tekumel and it's publishers from being mentioned on this site because MAR Barker reportedly wrote a piece of pro-Nazi fiction? I wouldn't want to get banned for mentioning a forbidden topic.
Barker wasn't working on the space program; he was writing weird RPG books while actively concealing that he was also writing nazi novels and acting as an "editor" for their magazine of revisionist holocaust-denying history.
And the Tekumel Foundation, who claim not to be Nazis, hid that fact so they could keep profiting off his works.
That doesn't answer my question.
Have you seen anyone here being banned yet?
I mean, so long as anyone isn't actually actively promoting Nazism here, or spreading racial hatred or anti-semitic statements, I don't see bans happening.
The idea that I'm somehow the one being inconsistent is ridiculous. I literally banned an anti-semite from this forum last week. The people who are being inconsistent are the ones who complain about leftist racial politics but who would seemingly throw themselves on a grenade to try to deny the overwhelming evidence of Barker having secretly been a piece of shit.
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 02:25:36 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 22, 2022, 12:38:13 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 21, 2022, 11:47:40 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 21, 2022, 10:13:37 PM
Unfortunately I wonder if Pundit understands how Cocksuck Soyarmy has completely and throughly played him.
I wonder if he cares remotely that he might lose members of his forum. Or that he is behaving exactly like the regressive repressive Wokescolds like other forums like Rpg.net.
Personal admission I have heard of Tekumal the rpg. Came close to joining a game. It never really took off in my neck of the woods beaten soundly by D&D. I'm not a fan of Barker Anti-Semantism I won't call those who pay for or enjoy his products Nazis or those who promote anti-semantism.
Problem is Pundit is so convinced of his side to the point of not being able to see the other side.worse it's like reading one of those sarcastic comments the mods over at Rpg.net or Paizo forums. I'm not seeing any difference at this point really. Either here or on Twitter.
Then again I'm not sure if he remotely cares about chasing away the moderate elements who refuse to kiss his ass. He can surround himself with sycophants I and others like Tenbones are simply not going to do so.
Pundit isn't the one sounding like the regressives at TBP.
The evidence against Barker is pretty damning at this point.
Yeah, but "they" have to play degrees of seperation now. No one is accusing Tekumel of being pro-Nazi, and the only current "issue" is that the Tekumel society probably knew and didn't say anything.
Not great, but hardly a huge scandal. If we're going to accuse businesses of being cowardly or shady, then everybody stop associating with every business that currently exists, and possibly ever existed.
Tubesock has been trying to get under everyone's skin, and mostly succeeding. I really don't care, except Pundit has poked his nose and, and considering his reaction, I'd like to know if Tekumel is a banned topic due to it's Nazi adjacency. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfhBM_Yay6w)
False equivalence. An author who is the reason a foundation exists being on the board of a Holocaust-denying journal and writing neo-Nazi fiction is not "every business that currently exists, or possibly every existed".
You're right. The things that current businesses get up to are far more relevant and important than some internet drama over an obscure RPG setting's board hushing up the creator's piece of pro-Nazi fiction. I stand corrected.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 22, 2022, 02:40:29 AM
You're right. The things that current businesses get up to are far more relevant and important than some internet drama over an obscure RPG setting's board hushing up the creator's piece of pro-Nazi fiction. I stand corrected.
First of all, Barker isn't some obscure RPG author. Tekumel is one of the most important contributions to the hobby. Secondly, who cares if some big company like Netflix is more influential? This is an RPG board. We're here to discuss things relevant to the hobby.
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 03:00:34 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 22, 2022, 02:40:29 AM
You're right. The things that current businesses get up to are far more relevant and important than some internet drama over an obscure RPG setting's board hushing up the creator's piece of pro-Nazi fiction. I stand corrected.
First of all, Barker isn't some obscure RPG author. Tekumel is one of the most important contributions to the hobby. Secondly, who cares if some big company like Netflix is more influential? This is an RPG board. We're here to discuss things relevant to the hobby.
One of the most obscure and near forgotten contributions to the hobby you mean. Tekumel has always been a very niche game. The density of the setting probably both helps and hinders it. Theres been tries to revive it over the years but they all seem to putter out for this or that reason. I got into it during the "Adventures on" era. But it was so obscure it was not till many a year later that I finished my collection of it.
Alot of folk have heard of Tekumel and Empire of the Petal Throne I believe. But few seem to actually know what the setting is or have played it. And even fewer know its history and connections with TSR. And probably even fewer know of the extensive side material generated for the setting. Material that far as I can tell is hard to come by.
I think only possibly Harn rivals Tekumel for being so well thought out and and detailed.
@Pundit
I am not pro-Nazi so fuck off with that shit let's be very crystal clear on that point.
Now if anyone else besides Cucksuck Soyarmy had posted this, and was a poster with a history arguing points in good faith and stirring shit on this site. Well you know how he is.
Your letting yourself be played because he did research on you and found you hate Nazi. How does he sow chaos and discord on this site between you and members. He make a list about barker being pro-Nazi.
Then again between this thread and Twitter you have shown yourself to be unwilling to be wrong on anything. Heaven forbid the grand Pundiit be wrong. Not on this topic just in general. Someone disagrees with you and the attacks against their character or in general begin. Sorry but I'm not getting paid to kiss your ass.
As for Barker yeah it's not looking good. As for those thinking that Tekumel is well known LOL you need to do the equivalent of getting out of your parent basement. As beyond a few in the hobby it's very niche and not well known at all. It's like Harn in that regard.
I heard about the rpg from Dragon magazine early back in the 1980s. Otherwise I probably would never have heard about it. Even way back then no one in my area played it. It was mostly D&D and almost nothing else.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 22, 2022, 02:39:07 AM
The idea that I'm somehow the one being inconsistent is ridiculous. I literally banned an anti-semite from this forum last week. The people who are being inconsistent are the ones who complain about leftist racial politics but who would seemingly throw themselves on a grenade to try to deny the overwhelming evidence of Barker having secretly been a piece of shit.
No, you are being inconsistent. You are doing exactly what the group of people you rail against do by making false equivalences and compelling speech from others. You were yelling at a longtime member to declare himself a Nazi or a moronic cunt. You threatened a ban over it.
This is your button, and the trolls know it. It is common knowledge that nothing sets you off like anti-Semitism. So if I wanted to fuck with your RPG forum, I'd probably do exactly what Tubesock did which is start this topic pretending like I didn't know who/what Barker or Tekumel was, just to see if I could draw some of the community offsides. After all, I'm a feckless troll who only exists to disrupt the members.
But by in large, nobody took the bait, so he switched to the crocodile tears about the fall of a legend. Any spark to light the fire. Go back and see how quick he turned me pointing out the inconsistencies of what he said about knowing Barker into being a Nazi sympathizer. That was the goal all along.
Not a single person has sympathized with a Nazi or anti-Semite. You have surrounded yourself by free thinkers who ask questions and refuse to have their free speech compelled. They're not going to break their values for Barker, and they are not going to break them for you.
Nazis and anti-Semites are objectively bad, representing the very worst of humanity. Hearing you talk in the past, I think we share more than a few things in common on this subject, but I do not leverage my personal life and family in arguments on forums about wizards and dragons. And they do not hold power over me today. Trolls could not do to me what they have done to you.
If people leave it is not because they are Nazis, neo-Nazi, or whatever term you and your temporary bedfellows like to throw around on people they do not agree with. It will be because this place no longer talks about RPGs, or is no longer the place for free speech or ideas.
Quote from: Pat on March 21, 2022, 11:47:40 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 21, 2022, 10:13:37 PM
Unfortunately I wonder if Pundit understands how Cocksuck Soyarmy has completely and throughly played him.
I wonder if he cares remotely that he might lose members of his forum. Or that he is behaving exactly like the regressive repressive Wokescolds like other forums like Rpg.net.
Personal admission I have heard of Tekumal the rpg. Came close to joining a game. It never really took off in my neck of the woods beaten soundly by D&D. I'm not a fan of Barker Anti-Semantism I won't call those who pay for or enjoy his products Nazis or those who promote anti-semantism.
Problem is Pundit is so convinced of his side to the point of not being able to see the other side.worse it's like reading one of those sarcastic comments the mods over at Rpg.net or Paizo forums. I'm not seeing any difference at this point really. Either here or on Twitter.
Then again I'm not sure if he remotely cares about chasing away the moderate elements who refuse to kiss his ass. He can surround himself with sycophants I and others like Tenbones are simply not going to do so.
Pundit isn't the one sounding like the regressives at TBP.
The evidence against Barker is pretty damning at this point.
I'm not denying what is being said about Barker.
Yet Punfit very much comes off as a hypocrite imo at this point.
He does not get to play " go go anti-woke SJW Ranger". Pokes fun at SJWs whenever he can when it's a cause he does not believe in then virtue signal from the highest rooftops about how bad Barker is.
Or to put it another way he does not get a free pass on being a hypocrite simply for who he is. If one claims to want to hear from both sides and an advocate of free speech then he loses the right to be both pissy and passive aggressive when he gets pushback. Then again seeing how he behaves here and on Twitter he is anything but.
You want to be a sycophantic and kiss Pundits ass I'm not doing that.
If he wants to be played by Soyarmy like thrift store Banjo that's on him.
Quote from: Abraxus on March 22, 2022, 07:28:34 AM
@Pundit
I am not pro-Nazi so fuck off with that shit let's be very crystal clear on that point.
Now if anyone else besides Cucksuck Soyarmy had posted this, and was a poster with a history arguing points in good faith and stirring shit on this site. Well you know how he is.
Your letting yourself be played because he did research on you and found you hate Nazi. How does he sow chaos and discord on this site between you and members. He make a list about barker being pro-Nazi.
Then again between this thread and Twitter you have shown yourself to be unwilling to be wrong on anything. Heaven forbid the grand Pundiit be wrong. Not on this topic just in general. Someone disagrees with you and the attacks against their character or in general begin. Sorry but I'm not getting paid to kiss your ass.
As for Barker yeah it's not looking good. As for those thinking that Tekumel is well known LOL you need to do the equivalent of getting out of your parent basement. As beyond a few in the hobby it's very niche and not well known at all. It's like Harn in that regard.
I heard about the rpg from Dragon magazine early back in the 1980s. Otherwise I probably would never have heard about it. Even way back then no one in my area played it. It was mostly D&D and almost nothing else.
"Did research and found out you hate nazis"
Holy lol, I didn't think you guys could make yourselves look stupider than "Barker's fingerprints are all over the murder weapon, we've got to figure out how he didn't do this", but "Pundit has disagreed with me, therefore he has obviously been duped by a long con perpetrated by that devious mastermind known as Tubesock Army" is orders of magnitude stupider. Congratulations, I guess?
Quote from: Abraxus on March 22, 2022, 08:23:08 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 21, 2022, 11:47:40 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 21, 2022, 10:13:37 PM
Unfortunately I wonder if Pundit understands how Cocksuck Soyarmy has completely and throughly played him.
I wonder if he cares remotely that he might lose members of his forum. Or that he is behaving exactly like the regressive repressive Wokescolds like other forums like Rpg.net.
Personal admission I have heard of Tekumal the rpg. Came close to joining a game. It never really took off in my neck of the woods beaten soundly by D&D. I'm not a fan of Barker Anti-Semantism I won't call those who pay for or enjoy his products Nazis or those who promote anti-semantism.
Problem is Pundit is so convinced of his side to the point of not being able to see the other side.worse it's like reading one of those sarcastic comments the mods over at Rpg.net or Paizo forums. I'm not seeing any difference at this point really. Either here or on Twitter.
Then again I'm not sure if he remotely cares about chasing away the moderate elements who refuse to kiss his ass. He can surround himself with sycophants I and others like Tenbones are simply not going to do so.
Pundit isn't the one sounding like the regressives at TBP.
The evidence against Barker is pretty damning at this point.
I'm not denying what is being said about Barker.
Yet Punfit very much comes off as a hypocrite imo at this point.
He does not get to play " go go anti-woke SJW Ranger". Pokes fun at SJWs whenever he can when it's a cause he does not believe in then virtue signal from the highest rooftops about how bad Barker is.
Or to put it another way he does not get a free pass on being a hypocrite simply for who he is. If one claims to want to hear from both sides and an advocate of free speech then he loses the right to be both pissy and passive aggressive when he gets pushback. Then again seeing how he behaves here and on Twitter he is anything but.
Pundit isn't the hypocrite. You are.
This is a clear case of people taking a principled stand by applying the same standards to both sides, and people like you who are taking the position that the only thing that matters is whether the people involved are on your side or theirs. Just look at what you said about Tubesock -- you literally admit that you would have reacted completely differently if the information came from a different source. That's pure partisanship.
You're the one doing all those things you're accusing the Pundit and others of doing. Your accusations are pure projection.
Quote from: Abraxus on March 22, 2022, 08:23:08 AM
You want to be a sycophantic and kiss Pundits ass I'm not doing that.
Fuck you, you miserable piece of shit. I kiss nobody's ass, which even the most cursory examination of my posting history would tell you. You're just completely wrong.
Cucksuck Soyarmy must be enjoying this.
Pretending to be the innocent bearer of truth while we are at each other throats.
Lets not give him that satisfaction.
@Pat
I apologize if I offended you.
Yes Pundit is a hypocrite if it's an SJW cause like Wheelchairs in gaming, either here or on Twitter he openly mocks the SJWs supporting that cause and others he dislikes. Now it's something he likes and believes in suddenly he gets to be " offended " and no one can say otherwise.
He reacts badly to any form of pushback and assumes everything and anything he writes to be the gospel truth. He could have reacted a hell of lot better towards those that disagreed with him in this thread. Instead I see no difference between him and an dog.net mod at this point.
I agree at what he is saying about Barkee yet why assume everyone else will. Especially when he promotes this place as being more open than other forums.
Why is anyone still paying attention to tubesnake for fuck's sake? Did you all decide the crazy and stupid pills looked tasty this morning?
Quote from: Abraxus on March 22, 2022, 10:14:27 AM
@Pat
I apologize if I offended you.
Yes Pundit is a hypocrite if it's an SJW cause like Wheelchairs in gaming, either here or on Twitter he openly mocks the SJWs supporting that cause and others he dislikes. Now it's something he likes and believes in suddenly he gets to be " offended " and no one can say otherwise.
He reacts badly to any form of pushback and assumes everything and anything he writes to be the gospel truth. He could have reacted a hell of lot better towards those that disagreed with him in this thread. Instead I see no difference between him and an dog.net mod at this point.
I agree at what he is saying about Barkee yet why assume everyone else will. Especially when he promotes this place as being more open than other forums.
Thanks. Appreciated.
But can't you see the inconsistency in your argument? You're criticizing Pundit for reacting strongly when it's something he liked (Tekumel, presumably), in contrast to reacting strongly when it's something he doesn't like (combat wheelchairs). Except that's only proof of hyptocrisy if he's defending the thing he likes, and attacking the thing he doesn't like. And that's not what's happening. He's calling Barker a Nazi, and was also very opposed to the wheelchairs. This is holding both sides to the same standard.
Plus, Pundit was fairly late to becoming active in this thread. The please ignore Barker contingent was in full force long before Pundit and I started to really push back. This wouldn't have escalated in the first place if they just said "yep, that's pretty fucking bad. Red!" And moved on. Instead, it became this whole thing about soywhatevers attacking us and we must defend.
Quote from: Abraxus on March 22, 2022, 09:54:42 AM
Cucksuck Soyarmy must be enjoying this.
Pretending to be the innocent bearer of truth while we are at each other throats.
Lets not give him that satisfaction.
Ignore Tube. It's just stupid baiting at this point, and irrelevant to the core issue.
This thread has started to look like accusations of "not showing enough hate" during the daily 2 minutes of hate. I say it could be best to let the thread sink to the 2nd page.
You
fuckers are gonna make me unlurk.
- The Pundit has never been righter about anything, ever. Once, he picked up a stone, and said, "this is a stone" - and yet, he was not as right then as he is now.
- Anyone who actually read a bit of Barker got to have known that the painting was on the wall there. Barker writes "Easterns" --- of the kind that probably made for vengeful anti-British post-colonial cinema in the 1960s and 1970s in India, Iraq, or Egypt. He's not "Flower Power" or "New Age", even though the art and the RPG writing of especially later Tekumel stuff do go through some lengths to suggest that.
And the man doing stuff in the 2000s is not the same man that did stuff in the 1980s. Life is crazy like that.
But fundamentally, Barker writes his fantasy like a dude who thinks that turbans, scimitars, and imams are the sign of the True Master Race - and some ideas just come with that territory: You don't close his books and say "he probably liked to smoke a blunt with his yogi in Soho". You get, though, that this is a guy who had a serious hard-on for pre-Muslim Eastern folklore and L- Ron Hubbard sci-fi - all the while lacking the trademark Tolkienian academic distance and nuance. He's not writing a "different kind of fantasy"; he's letting you into his bubble where his fantasy daydreaming is simply an extension of his life choices - with all implications.
"The Man of Gold", Barker's probably most defining or definitive work on Tekumel, is readily available via Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Man-Gold-Empire-Petal-Throne/dp/0986432318
Go, have a look for yourselves.
This Straw Man effigy that people are denying Barker is an Anti-Semite is hitting Gargantuan Size.
I have yet to see a single person in this thread openly say Barker is not an Anti-Semite. Not one. Not only are people *not* making that claim, the insistence of Barker being a NAZI NAZI NAZI! by his apparent not-fans, is the very thing cocking eyebrows. I mean, I made my stance pretty clear way upthread, Barker looks like a Muslim that is an Anti-Semite - this isn't a shocking thing in the Muslim world, you know. But if it suits you to call him a Nazi... okay?
Let's move past the indeterminate vernacular, shall we? Okay so he's an Anti-Semite/Nazi. So what? I'll ask for like the half-dozenth <-- not real word, time - SO WHAT? He was a piece of shit, however you want to define "piece of shit".
What does this mean other than we're standing around Grandpa's Corpse and his SS Uniform is hanging in the closet. And now what? We stand around looking at one another - and NO ONE is pretending we don't see the uniform.
There is at least two questions that are pertinent to this forum that could be asked, that could stir up some shit, but if this thread is going to be about discussing how forum-members are not outraged enough at the Straw Man and be insinuated to be Nazi Sympathizers or other weak bullshit like that - then I'll happily leave you all to it.
If you want to discuss the real elephant in the room - I'm down for that.
1) So is Tekumel going on the Red List?
2) And if so - why? And will this mean that other authors get "vetted" for badwrongthoughts - and are we limiting Insta-Redlisting only for Anti-Semitism? Or are other other forms of bigotry grounds for Redlisting?
If #1 is a no then most of the corollaries I care about are moot.
Quote from: tenbones on March 22, 2022, 11:42:24 AM
1) So is Tekumel going on the Red List?
2) And if so - why? And will this mean that other authors get "vetted" for badwrongthoughts - and are we limiting Insta-Redlisting only for Anti-Semitism? Or are other other forms of bigotry grounds for Redlisting?
Literally every single entry on the red list is about bigotry.
But I'm not talking about the Red List. I'm talking about the Green List and Yellow List...
#1 needs to be answered first. I don't see anyone here putting their chip on the table... despite all the protestations of the author's extracurricular activities. /looks at Grandpa's closet...
Edit: I'm asking these not *because* I want Tekumel to go onto the Redlist (or remain off it) - I'm asking because I would assume Tekumel gets the Cthulhu clause... But apparently some people don't think Barker to Lovecraft are apples to oranges.
You literally said redlist under the same bullet point.
And I've repeatedly answered your question this thread.
Well that's because we call it "The Red List" - but it's actually three lists. I assumed you could easily infer this.
If you answered - I missed it.
I get people feel uncomfortable about it - but hey! this is what happens when people get vociferous about some principle to the point of wanting to fight about it. My response to this thread remains -
"That sucks. Tekumel rocks. GTFO."
I was meh on the Red List anyhow... now I'm even more meh.
The thread is called the Woke list or something. (Which I think is a bad name, because it shouldn't be partisan.) The red list is a specific part of it.
And page 2, if you're interested. It's my first post, and I've repeated it several times since. A number of us were very clear, from the outset, that this indisputably qualifies for the red list. Now Barker isn't a publisher so that's irrelevant, but the Tekumel Foundation is clearly benefiting and complicit, so it's an open and shut case.
The red list isn't a mandate. It doesn't compel you to do anything. It's about informing people about bad actors. You can buy and play what you want, and you could always do so. This only has an effect if you want it to, so all this fuss about redlisting really feels strange.
Looks like another purge at the TBP has started:
https://www.rpg.net/columns/advanced-designers-and-dragons/advanced-designers-and-dragons63.phtml
Quote from: Abraxus on March 22, 2022, 12:35:33 PM
Looks like another purge at the TBP has started:
https://www.rpg.net/columns/advanced-designers-and-dragons/advanced-designers-and-dragons63.phtml
Is it really so different from what's been said here?
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 22, 2022, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 22, 2022, 12:35:33 PM
Looks like another purge at the TBP has started:
https://www.rpg.net/columns/advanced-designers-and-dragons/advanced-designers-and-dragons63.phtml
Is it really so different from what's been said here?
Quote
Whether a problematic author can be separated from their creative work has been a frequent topic of discussion in the 21st century, with the homophobic attitudes of Orson Scott Card and the transphobic attitudes of J.K. Rowling being some of the biggest flashpoints of discussion. It's also touched directly upon our hobby in the previously well-received works of creators such as Alexander Macris and Zak S., which have become problematic to many because of actions of those creators. But there's never been an author as notable as Barker who has been revealed to have such feet of clay.
Yeah, I would say different.
Quote from: tenbones on March 22, 2022, 12:00:04 PMI was meh on the Red List anyhow... now I'm even more meh.
I've always been meh on the Red List too (or Woke List, whatever we wanna call it), but I'm inclined to say "Red List" on the basis that Barker not only wrote what a appears to be one of the most well regarded (by its target audience) pieces of pro-Nazi fiction, but also sat in the board of a Holocaust-denying newspaper, which makes him more than a passive actor with wrong opinions, but someone taking an active role in it, using his weight as an academic to lend credibility to Holocaust denialism. And to top it off the TF sat on that knowledge for years once they found out, whether for financial reasons or to cover their ass.
That being said, I don't consider Tekumel in any way related to Nazism or white supremacy, and would have been happy to separate art from the artist, except for the above points. I also reserve the word "Nazi" for actual members of the Nazi party (which isn't around anymore and he wasn't a part of), or at least people with Nazi views in actual positions of power (like Ukraine's Nazi battalion). But I still think that the guy crossed into the Red (to the degree that list even matters) for the reasons I stated above.
Quote from: tenbones on March 22, 2022, 11:51:29 AM
But I'm not talking about the Red List. I'm talking about the Green List and Yellow List...
#1 needs to be answered first. I don't see anyone here putting their chip on the table... despite all the protestations of the author's extracurricular activities. /looks at Grandpa's closet...
Edit: I'm asking these not *because* I want Tekumel to go onto the Redlist (or remain off it) - I'm asking because I would assume Tekumel gets the Cthulhu clause... But apparently some people don't think Barker to Lovecraft are apples to oranges.
I think part of the difference with Lovecraft is that he was both a product of an era, and his head was filled with these ideals by his aunts who raised him when he was most vulnerable. But more importantly Lovecraft and Howard get a pass because they both had alot of nuance to their beliefs and their beliefs changed. Especially Lovecraft as he got out and actually saw the real world rather than the ugly image his aunts painted. The other thing with Lovecraft is that for all the claims he was wacist... He was not in the sense we had back in the 60s, and sure as hell not what the terms been twisted into now. And his writing shows this. Haunter in the Dark being one of the better examples.
Barker is a complete cypher. All we have so far is his connections to a supremacist group via two sources. The oversight board one could be for any number of reasons. But Serpent Walks leaves little room for doubt as to it being a platform for the groups agenda. Without reading further back into the book (I started at the end and have been working backwards) The book though is freakishly not anti-Semitic. In fact the gist of the final statement of the main character on this is "We would have prefered to live with the Jews in peace. Seperately, and at a distance." But the book very much paints the "Izzies", which mostly seems to be Israel as just as bad as the Nazis. Which seems to be the main characters point of disgust with them. If anything at times it is their British and American allies that come across as more racist than the Germans.
Which brings up the even more ugly possibility that Barker was not only working with them to further their racist ideals. But also used them to further HIS racist views. All carefully packaged. There is certainly a pattern developing that I am seeing here just from going over the last several chapters. The main antagonists is Israel the book mentions various historical exerps from their wars with Palestine and by the time of the books setting of 204x it has escalated to africa and europe. Now sprinkle in various bemoanings on how the Nazis were badly treated and were denied "justice". All backed with what are likely true (or partially true) historical incidents during WWII.
It is a book serving two hateful agendas. Not one.
In an attempt to splash some cooling water on understandably passionate conflicts, it seems to me like the problem is a basic clash between two long-standing -- and in themselves neither even slightly disputed, I think -- tenets of the various philosophies prevailing here:
1) Fascism and anti-Semitism are intrinsically evil, and even allowing oneself to be passively associated with them for profit is wrong.
2) Attempting to "cancel" people -- to socially ostracize them through organized campaigns of denunciation and renunciation, even to the point of reputational or economic ruin if possible -- for their political opinions, so long as their advocacy of those opinions does not rise to the level of calling for outright violence, is also intrinsically wrong, not least because it is a critical tactic of fascism whenever it's implemented.
The paradox, of course, is: Is it right or wrong to call for the cancellation of a group who profited from a pro-fascist anti-Semite's work? If cancellation is always and intrinsically wrong, then this admits of no exceptions, not even for neo-Nazism, which understandably strikes many as intolerable. But if neo-Nazism is evil enough to justify otherwise intolerable tactics, then we admit a potentially fatal caveat into the philosophical opposition to Wokeness for which many people value this site -- for then the argument is not whether cancellation is wrong, but only where one draws the line about who truly deserves to suffer it, and lines drawn for exceptions have a demonstrable tendency to shift with the times.
Several stipulations can be noted which may help mitigate this clash, as have been observed by others:
- While Barker's work can't pass any reasonable smell test by now for forgiveable motivations, "passive association" may be too broad a category to realistically use as a sole criterion of judgement. At least some people working for the Tekumel Foundation knew of Barker's anti-Semitic writing for years, but determining "what did you know, and when did you know it?" for everybody who ever worked for the Foundation is impractical, and assuming "if they took the money they should take the blame" may be too close to "guilty until proven innocent" for comfort.
- On the other hand, being put on the Red portion of the Woke list here is a long way off from "an organized campaign of denunciation". Those who don't want to support anti-Semitism even passively, indirectly or retroactively now have the information needed to make the choices required by good conscience, and are free to advise whoever else they like about it and why. If others want to give the Foundation more money for more Tekumel products, on the grounds that (a) none of it has been going to benefit Barker or Barker's politics for years, (b) nothing specifically Tekumel-related is anti-Semitic, and (c) by the time the Foundation found out about Barker there was nothing they could have practically done about it, then they still have that option -- the Red list isn't stopping them.
The fatal temptation when resisting something seen as unquestionably evil is the temptation to believe that a disagreement about means must necessarily indicate an unforgiveable difference about ends. In the spirit of respect for most of the posters I read here, and in gratitude to our host RPGPundit for allowing this to be thrashed out, I ask if we can aspire to looking for the best faith possible with those who disagree.
Part of the pushback against Pundit is that there is far as I know so far no clear timeline of when the Foundation learned of all this. But Pundit has declared them Nazi supporters and accused them of deliberately concealing this.
If thats true then what about Cherine who learned this apparently a decade ago. And yet on this very forum has said not a damn thing about it? And he has posted here as of I think a year ago. Maybe 2. Before my accident Im pretty sure.
Is he damned as well for not telling everyone?
Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 05:04:25 PMPundit has declared them Nazi supporters and accused them of deliberately concealing this.
They
did deliberately conceal it; at least, some of them did. How many and who is probably never going to be feasible to specifically determine at this point, barring people making public
mea culpas about it. The Woke certainly overuse, and unfairly, the "silence is complicity" accusation, but that doesn't mean there aren't circumstances in which it's justifiable.
As a Catholic I tend to lean pretty heavily on the distinction between formal and material cooperation with evil, which I find to be a useful way to look at issues like this.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 22, 2022, 03:59:53 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 22, 2022, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 22, 2022, 12:35:33 PM
Looks like another purge at the TBP has started:
https://www.rpg.net/columns/advanced-designers-and-dragons/advanced-designers-and-dragons63.phtml
Is it really so different from what's been said here?
Quote
Whether a problematic author can be separated from their creative work has been a frequent topic of discussion in the 21st century, with the homophobic attitudes of Orson Scott Card and the transphobic attitudes of J.K. Rowling being some of the biggest flashpoints of discussion. It's also touched directly upon our hobby in the previously well-received works of creators such as Alexander Macris and Zak S., which have become problematic to many because of actions of those creators. But there's never been an author as notable as Barker who has been revealed to have such feet of clay.
Yeah, I would say different.
I see you agree completely.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 22, 2022, 05:25:50 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 05:04:25 PMPundit has declared them Nazi supporters and accused them of deliberately concealing this.
They did deliberately conceal it; at least, some of them did. How many and who is probably never going to be feasible to specifically determine at this point, barring people making public mea culpas about it. The Woke certainly overuse, and unfairly, the "silence is complicity" accusation, but that doesn't mean there aren't circumstances in which it's justifiable.
As a Catholic I tend to lean pretty heavily on the distinction between formal and material cooperation with evil, which I find to be a useful way to look at issues like this.
What I mean is that Pundit is making it out that the foundation concealed this for nefarious ends. Either to merely profiteer off his works. Or as mustache twirling villains.
And we do not know that they concealed it. Merely that they sat on the information for X amount of time. Which as I've pointed out before. Could be for valid reasons or just indecision in the face of ongoing SJW witch hunts.
Screaming "THEY HID IT! THEY ARE EVIL!" doesnt make that a fact.
Now if it turns out that they looked at Cherine and said "Hey bub... Lets not be tellin anyone bout this ok?" then thats a different matter.
Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 05:45:39 PMPundit is making it out that the foundation concealed this for nefarious ends.
They may have done. It depends on how personally venal their motives were. I think it vanishingly unlikely that anybody in the Foundation actually agreed with Barker's expressed views, but if one's stance amounts to, "I don't care enough about anti-Semitism to give up making money at least somewhat enabled by it," that's at absolute best callously selfish. Such attitudes
have contributed measurably to the success of pernicious doctrines in the past.
Myself I believe the thinking was more along the lines of, "I don't think our employees deserve to lose their job and their income over one man's evil actions, especially since they didn't know about them, those actions had nothing directly to do with their job, and they can't be altered now anyway," which is in my view more understandable. But it's within the realm of reason to disagree about which way it's more appropriate to bet.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 22, 2022, 04:49:13 PM
In an attempt to splash some cooling water on understandably passionate conflicts, it seems to me like the problem is a basic clash between two long-standing -- and in themselves neither even slightly disputed, I think -- tenets of the various philosophies prevailing here:
1) Fascism and anti-Semitism are intrinsically evil, and even allowing oneself to be passively associated with them for profit is wrong.
2) Attempting to "cancel" people -- to socially ostracize them through organized campaigns of denunciation and renunciation, even to the point of reputational or economic ruin if possible -- for their political opinions, so long as their advocacy of those opinions does not rise to the level of calling for outright violence, is also intrinsically wrong, not least because it is a critical tactic of fascism whenever it's implemented.
I don't think that's where people differ.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 22, 2022, 06:01:38 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 05:45:39 PMPundit is making it out that the foundation concealed this for nefarious ends.
They may have done. It depends on how personally venal their motives were. I think it vanishingly unlikely that anybody in the Foundation actually agreed with Barker's expressed views, but if one's stance amounts to, "I don't care enough about anti-Semitism to give up making money at least somewhat enabled by it," that's at absolute best callously selfish. Such attitudes have contributed measurably to the success of pernicious doctrines in the past.
Myself I believe the thinking was more along the lines of, "I don't think our employees deserve to lose their job and their income over one man's evil actions, especially since they didn't know about them, those actions had nothing directly to do with their job, and they can't be altered now anyway," which is in my view more understandable. But it's within the realm of reason to disagree about which way it's more appropriate to bet.
Regardless of their rationalizations, they chose to keep it to themselves rather than making it public.
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:03:32 PMI don't think that's where people differ.
I agree. I think most regular posters here agree on both those beliefs.
To me it seems like the conflict is about whether there's a necessary contradiction between them in this particular situation, and how best to resolve it if there is. I was just hoping to pour a little oil on troubled waters.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 22, 2022, 06:19:08 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:03:32 PMI don't think that's where people differ.
I agree. I think most regular posters here agree on both those beliefs.
To me it seems like the conflict is about whether there's a necessary contradiction between them in this particular situation, and how best to resolve it if there is. I was just hoping to pour a little oil on troubled waters.
That's what I disagree with. I don't think that's the crux of the issue.
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:23:36 PMI don't think that's the crux of the issue.
What do you think is the crux of it? If it's been expressed in a previous post, I apologize for missing it.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 22, 2022, 06:25:37 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:23:36 PMI don't think that's the crux of the issue.
What do you think is the crux of it? If it's been expressed in a previous post, I apologize for missing it.
I'm not sure, I just know it's orthogonal to anything I've been talking about. I've mostly been emphasizing the importance of applying the same standards to all sides. But I can't speak for anyone else, and I'm not sure it's a productive direction for further discussion.
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 22, 2022, 06:25:37 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:23:36 PMI don't think that's the crux of the issue.
What do you think is the crux of it? If it's been expressed in a previous post, I apologize for missing it.
I'm not sure, I just know it's orthogonal to anything I've been talking about. I've mostly been emphasizing the importance of applying the same standards to all sides. But I can't speak for anyone else, and I'm not sure it's a productive direction for further discussion.
I agree that we should apply the same standards. Currently the standards are to excuse your friends and destroy your enemies.
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 22, 2022, 06:25:37 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:23:36 PMI don't think that's the crux of the issue.
What do you think is the crux of it? If it's been expressed in a previous post, I apologize for missing it.
I'm not sure, I just know it's orthogonal to anything I've been talking about. I've mostly been emphasizing the importance of applying the same standards to all sides. But I can't speak for anyone else, and I'm not sure it's a productive direction for further discussion.
You say that then turn around and damn the foundation for sitting on the information. For reasons as yet unknown to us.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:43:25 PM
FACT: the Tekumel Foundation knew about this for a time period of at least two years and possibly as long as ten years, but kept it covered up because their own clout was more important.
Did they really? Covering something up is positive action and implies a lot more activity than just staying silent about a distasteful act. I haven't seen anything here that implies they did more than just keep quiet.
You think there's some ethical requirement that they must publicize distasteful information if they prefer to keep silent. Legally, ethically, morally, the case for requiring positive action such as this must meet a pretty high standard, because it's such an impairment of personal liberty. For example under US law you're not allowed to murder, but you're also not required to take positive action to save a life even if you're right there and have the means. This comes up in the news every once in a while. Morally I do think there's a duty take action here but the point is that we are uncomfortable requiring positive action, and for good reason.
I'm really uncomfortable with requiring positive action to report someone who is thinking wrong. First, because this is an established tactic of totalitarians such as the USSR, the fictional 1984 government, and actual nazis. Second because such requirements can be more easily turned to an evil rather than a good use. Tyrants love this sort of thing. Creating a norm of required disclosure is dangerous to the freedom of our society. In the current political climate it's more likely to be used against you personally than any bad actors.
My opinion is that morally one must disclose information to prevent harm, but this case doesn't meet that standard. The media in question is harmless, the nazi in question isn't currently doing anything bad because he's dead, and there's no evidence that the estate is doing anything wrong with the money. As far as I'm concerned the foundation didn't do anything wrong by keeping quiet, and they did more than they had to by confirming that Barker was indeed a nazi when asked, so good for them.
And I'd like to ask you something for my own curiosity; feel free to tell me it's none of my business if you don't care to answer, because I realize that it isn't. Any sane person realizes that Nazis are evil, but you have a passion for the topic that goes beyond typical. Is there some reason behind that?
Quote from: Abraxus on March 22, 2022, 08:23:08 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 21, 2022, 11:47:40 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 21, 2022, 10:13:37 PM
Unfortunately I wonder if Pundit understands how Cocksuck Soyarmy has completely and throughly played him.
I wonder if he cares remotely that he might lose members of his forum. Or that he is behaving exactly like the regressive repressive Wokescolds like other forums like Rpg.net.
Personal admission I have heard of Tekumal the rpg. Came close to joining a game. It never really took off in my neck of the woods beaten soundly by D&D. I'm not a fan of Barker Anti-Semantism I won't call those who pay for or enjoy his products Nazis or those who promote anti-semantism.
Problem is Pundit is so convinced of his side to the point of not being able to see the other side.worse it's like reading one of those sarcastic comments the mods over at Rpg.net or Paizo forums. I'm not seeing any difference at this point really. Either here or on Twitter.
Then again I'm not sure if he remotely cares about chasing away the moderate elements who refuse to kiss his ass. He can surround himself with sycophants I and others like Tenbones are simply not going to do so.
Pundit isn't the one sounding like the regressives at TBP.
The evidence against Barker is pretty damning at this point.
I'm not denying what is being said about Barker.
Yet Punfit very much comes off as a hypocrite imo at this point.
He does not get to play " go go anti-woke SJW Ranger". Pokes fun at SJWs whenever he can when it's a cause he does not believe in then virtue signal from the highest rooftops about how bad Barker is.
Or to put it another way he does not get a free pass on being a hypocrite simply for who he is. If one claims to want to hear from both sides and an advocate of free speech then he loses the right to be both pissy and passive aggressive when he gets pushback. Then again seeing how he behaves here and on Twitter he is anything but.
You want to be a sycophantic and kiss Pundits ass I'm not doing that.
If he wants to be played by Soyarmy like thrift store Banjo that's on him.
so I just want to clarify here. Are you saying that being anti-woke means you have to be nice to Neo-Nazis? That being anti-woke is inconsistent with opposing bigotry? because if so, that's a damning confession of your motivations.
Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 07:04:52 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 22, 2022, 06:25:37 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:23:36 PMI don't think that's the crux of the issue.
What do you think is the crux of it? If it's been expressed in a previous post, I apologize for missing it.
I'm not sure, I just know it's orthogonal to anything I've been talking about. I've mostly been emphasizing the importance of applying the same standards to all sides. But I can't speak for anyone else, and I'm not sure it's a productive direction for further discussion.
You say that then turn around and damn the foundation for sitting on the information. For reasons as yet unknown to us.
What? That's a minor issue, and why are you saying the reasons are unknown? It's been covered by many people, and should be very (very, very) obvious.
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 07:37:33 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 07:04:52 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 22, 2022, 06:25:37 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:23:36 PMI don't think that's the crux of the issue.
What do you think is the crux of it? If it's been expressed in a previous post, I apologize for missing it.
I'm not sure, I just know it's orthogonal to anything I've been talking about. I've mostly been emphasizing the importance of applying the same standards to all sides. But I can't speak for anyone else, and I'm not sure it's a productive direction for further discussion.
You say that then turn around and damn the foundation for sitting on the information. For reasons as yet unknown to us.
What? That's a minor issue, and why are you saying the reasons are unknown? It's been covered by many people, and should be very (very, very) obvious.
Um... no... it is not obvious why they sat on the information. None of us are the psychic hotline and until more data comes in we do not know even the when of this, let alone the why of it.
Indecision? Fear? Greed? Evil?
By your logic then Cherine must be even worse as he concealed the knowledge from the foundation and us.
Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 07:04:52 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 22, 2022, 06:25:37 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:23:36 PMI don't think that's the crux of the issue.
What do you think is the crux of it? If it's been expressed in a previous post, I apologize for missing it.
I'm not sure, I just know it's orthogonal to anything I've been talking about. I've mostly been emphasizing the importance of applying the same standards to all sides. But I can't speak for anyone else, and I'm not sure it's a productive direction for further discussion.
You say that then turn around and damn the foundation for sitting on the information. For reasons as yet unknown to us.
I think their reasons are pretty easy to discern, based on the length of this thread and the fact that this is being discussed everywhere. It even went a couple of pages over at the Pub, where political discussions aren't allowed, before a mod finally stepped in to give a warning along with some disclaimers about how they made an exception to let it go on that long given how momentous this news was. The Foundation must have known the shit storm this news would cause, cuz it's pretty obvious that it would. And didn't want to pay the Piper, so they let the internet break the damn for them instead.
Whether there were financial reasons as well or some such might be speculative, but it's pretty obvious that they didn't want to face the music. So they kept shut instead, which makes them seem complicit and it's not a good look regardless of any rationalizations they might cook up.
Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 07:46:58 PM
By your logic then Cherine must be even worse as he concealed the knowledge from the foundation and us.
Back when he posted here I was under the distinct impression that Chrine was not on good terms with the foundation. Which may well explain his silence. It may also have changed, it's been a couple years now. I expect his old thread is still gathering dust at the bottom of the forum here.
I want to clarify a few things about why Tekumel seems important to people.
Tekumel was essentially the first published D&D world. It came with its own house rules, and Gygax and Arneson had published some material that suggested some things about their own campaigns. But pointing out that Tekumel inspired everything from Talislanta to Exalted really overlooks something more pertinent: Tekumel is part of what gave us Greyhawk. There is no road to Talislanta that does not begin without Tekumel, but that's equally true of Mystara/The Known world, Palladium and the rest. Not to say those worlds couldn't or wouldn't have necessarily been published otherwise, but that Tekumel is one of the significant milestones in creating and publishing fleshed-out, coherent, worldly fantasy settings. Before Tekumel, you had dungeons, you had military skirmishes on Middle-Earth, and you have Gygax's rambling notes about druids, polearms, and prostitutes.
As to the shape of Tekumel itself, it was written by a skilled linguist with a passing interest in anthropology who wrote genre fiction. As a work it embodied what so many of us have aspired to: something really thoughtful but also crafted with gaming in mind. Barker brought a similar set of tools to the work as Tolkien, but with an aim toward creating a game setting. I can only think Tekumel profoundly influenced the opinions of people who undertook to write game worlds. Tekumel may never have had mass market appeal but it was captivating to people who created and published games.
Tekumel is also something of a legend, moving from publisher to publisher. Some stuff gets published, but somehow it never all gets collated at once. So at some point, people who heard of Tekumel wanted to get their hands on it. My first opportunity was the GoO release. Which was ultimately disappointing, but whetted my appetite to understand more about this classic game. Last year I finally was able to order a POD of EPT. We're talking about a 15 years for me between tastes of that experience. And that's me having an active interest, but not having the budget to buy out-of-print, collectible books.
Then there's the community. There are people who INVESTED in Tekumel. There are people who can read the Tsolyani script. There are conventions. There are people who cosplay Tekumel. I never dove that deep. I didn't have the chance, and I'm not the kind of person who marries one property. But I just want people to understand that there are people who have LOVED the setting, for whom it is important emotionally and as a creative work. And those are probably the people who the Tekumel Foundation were too cowardly to engage. They couldn't bear to deliver the truth, so they made themselves complicit in Barker's evil secrecy.
And then there's the big reveal. We've discovered bad things about people in the industry before. This is kind of different. first, there is the man. As creator of Tekumel, he is basically grandfather to every other published high fantasy setting. He is the godfather of in-depth world design, the patron saint of RPG spin-off media, the archetype of the SERIOUS RPG world-builder. Then there is the crime. He wrote Nazi books about Nazis, with swastikas on the cover, and published it through white supremacists. He's a Holocaust denier, an Orientalist Muslim, and by inference, probably a Hitler stan. He gave himself a name suggesting he agreed with Hitler about tours, and he probably could not have been happier than wearing a turban and hanging out with Turkish collaborators from WWWI to and through WWII. There is no comparison of which I am aware, between any RPG person or someone in a closely adjacent fandom, between on the one hand their creative and cultural stature, and on the other hand, the extent to which they turned out to be a complete and utter piece of dogshit.
So do or think whatever you want. But don't act like you weren't told, when someone assumes you're Nazi dogshit becuse you found a piece of Nazi dogshit and didn't have the common sense to put it down. Okay? This is timeout on everything Tekumel-related while people assess the damage. You don't have to agree with that perspective, but don't be a crybaby when people ask you why are playing with Nazi dogshit and are defending the non-political, entertainment value of playing with Nazi dogshit.
The Tekumel Foundation may have entirely innocent motivations, but they have miles of work to do before any decent person in the community will want anything to do with them.
Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 07:46:58 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 07:37:33 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 07:04:52 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 22, 2022, 06:25:37 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:23:36 PMI don't think that's the crux of the issue.
What do you think is the crux of it? If it's been expressed in a previous post, I apologize for missing it.
I'm not sure, I just know it's orthogonal to anything I've been talking about. I've mostly been emphasizing the importance of applying the same standards to all sides. But I can't speak for anyone else, and I'm not sure it's a productive direction for further discussion.
You say that then turn around and damn the foundation for sitting on the information. For reasons as yet unknown to us.
What? That's a minor issue, and why are you saying the reasons are unknown? It's been covered by many people, and should be very (very, very) obvious.
Um... no... it is not obvious why they sat on the information. None of us are the psychic hotline and until more data comes in we do not know even the when of this, let alone the why of it.
Indecision? Fear? Greed? Evil?
By your logic then Cherine must be even worse as he concealed the knowledge from the foundation and us.
First of all, I read your "reasons" as referring to why I was "damning the foundation", not the foundation's own reasons. Your phrasing was unclear.
Secondly, I never said anything like that. Look at my response to Tannhauser. Tannhauser was going through all the psychic hotline stuff you're criticizing, and I specifically dismissed it by saying "Regardless of their rationalizations, they chose to keep it to themselves rather than making it public." I was making the point that their reasons didn't matter, only their actions. Which should have made my "reasons" clear.
Plus, we're talking about putting an organization that profits from Barker on a red list. What does that have to do with a poster?
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 22, 2022, 07:49:21 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 07:04:52 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 22, 2022, 06:25:37 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 06:23:36 PMI don't think that's the crux of the issue.
What do you think is the crux of it? If it's been expressed in a previous post, I apologize for missing it.
I'm not sure, I just know it's orthogonal to anything I've been talking about. I've mostly been emphasizing the importance of applying the same standards to all sides. But I can't speak for anyone else, and I'm not sure it's a productive direction for further discussion.
You say that then turn around and damn the foundation for sitting on the information. For reasons as yet unknown to us.
I think their reasons are pretty easy to discern, based on the length of this thread and the fact that this is being discussed everywhere. It even went a couple of pages over at the Pub, where political discussions aren't allowed, before a mod finally stepped in to give a warning along with some disclaimers about how they made an exception to let it go on that long given how momentous this news was. The Foundation must have known the shit storm this news would cause, cuz it's pretty obvious that it would. And didn't want to pay the Piper, so they let the internet break the damn for them instead.
Whether there were financial reasons as well or some such might be speculative, but it's pretty obvious that they didn't want to face the music. So they kept shut instead, which makes them seem complicit and it's not a good look regardless of any rationalizations they might cook up.
Greetings!
Indeed, I agree my friend.
I'm not sure where or when this shrill, manic obsession came from that demands everyone, everywhere, shout their darkest secrets into the public square online came from.
I'm familiar with a concept called *Discretion*. Discretion isn't a value or character trait that is valued at all in our current society in large degree.
However, in many, many companies, both large and small, Discretion is an essential quality, and embracing discretion can be a requirement for promotion--and certainly also for even keeping your job. I've known companies that would terminate you in a blink for saying, revealing, exposing, publicizing, any kind of information that makes the corporation as a brand or the leadership team embarrassed, look incompetent, or god forbid, become shamed.
You are to just shut up about it.
I imagine the Tekumel Board people just said, "Yeah, the Professor is dead. No point in publicizing any strange things he was into. Just forget about it and let it sink into the oblivion of time. There is the "Public Professor" and the "Private Professor". Let the "Private Professor" remain as such, in a similar manner to which any normal person would also prefer their "Private Selves" to remain separate."
And that is that. I can't imagine any board member thinking, "NO! We need to scream this into the public square on the internet first thing in the morning!"
Many motivations are possible. As I mentioned, I've known companies that would terminate you for publicly running your mouth about far less.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Mishihari on March 22, 2022, 07:29:31 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:43:25 PM
FACT: the Tekumel Foundation knew about this for a time period of at least two years and possibly as long as ten years, but kept it covered up because their own clout was more important.
Did they really? Covering something up is positive action and implies a lot more activity than just staying silent about a distasteful act. I haven't seen anything here that implies they did more than just keep quiet.
You think there's some ethical requirement that they must publicize distasteful information if they prefer to keep silent. Legally, ethically, morally, the case for requiring positive action such as this must meet a pretty high standard, because it's such an impairment of personal liberty. For example under US law you're not allowed to murder, but you're also not required to take positive action to save a life even if you're right there and have the means. This comes up in the news every once in a while. Morally I do think there's a duty take action here but the point is that we are uncomfortable requiring positive action, and for good reason.
I'm really uncomfortable with requiring positive action to report someone who is thinking wrong. First, because this is an established tactic of totalitarians such as the USSR, the fictional 1984 government, and actual nazis. Second because such requirements can be more easily turned to an evil rather than a good use. Tyrants love this sort of thing. Creating a norm of required disclosure is dangerous to the freedom of our society. In the current political climate it's more likely to be used against you personally than any bad actors.
My opinion is that morally one must disclose information to prevent harm, but this case doesn't meet that standard. The media in question is harmless, the nazi in question isn't currently doing anything bad because he's dead, and there's no evidence that the estate is doing anything wrong with the money. As far as I'm concerned the foundation didn't do anything wrong by keeping quiet, and they did more than they had to by confirming that Barker was indeed a nazi when asked, so good for them.
And I'd like to ask you something for my own curiosity; feel free to tell me it's none of my business if you don't care to answer, because I realize that it isn't. Any sane person realizes that Nazis are evil, but you have a passion for the topic that goes beyond typical. Is there some reason behind that?
You're making a pseudo-legal argument. This isn't a court. Does a company have a legal duty to inform people about X? Irrelevant.
A better analogy would be public relations. Will the public feel betrayed if a company keeps Y a secret, and it comes out later? Did they, even by omission instead of commission, support something odious? This will inevitably affect how people will see the company, going forward. And it may tarnish their reputation, perhaps irreparably. There are ways of handling it better, even if it's unpleasant coming forward with something like this. Though of course it's more than just public relations, because there's also a moral component.
And as someone who despises tyranny in all forms, I find your analogy very distasteful. Tyranny involves compulsion or force, and there is nothing of that nature involved.
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 08:08:50 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on March 22, 2022, 07:29:31 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:43:25 PM
FACT: the Tekumel Foundation knew about this for a time period of at least two years and possibly as long as ten years, but kept it covered up because their own clout was more important.
Did they really? Covering something up is positive action and implies a lot more activity than just staying silent about a distasteful act. I haven't seen anything here that implies they did more than just keep quiet.
You think there's some ethical requirement that they must publicize distasteful information if they prefer to keep silent. Legally, ethically, morally, the case for requiring positive action such as this must meet a pretty high standard, because it's such an impairment of personal liberty. For example under US law you're not allowed to murder, but you're also not required to take positive action to save a life even if you're right there and have the means. This comes up in the news every once in a while. Morally I do think there's a duty take action here but the point is that we are uncomfortable requiring positive action, and for good reason.
I'm really uncomfortable with requiring positive action to report someone who is thinking wrong. First, because this is an established tactic of totalitarians such as the USSR, the fictional 1984 government, and actual nazis. Second because such requirements can be more easily turned to an evil rather than a good use. Tyrants love this sort of thing. Creating a norm of required disclosure is dangerous to the freedom of our society. In the current political climate it's more likely to be used against you personally than any bad actors.
My opinion is that morally one must disclose information to prevent harm, but this case doesn't meet that standard. The media in question is harmless, the nazi in question isn't currently doing anything bad because he's dead, and there's no evidence that the estate is doing anything wrong with the money. As far as I'm concerned the foundation didn't do anything wrong by keeping quiet, and they did more than they had to by confirming that Barker was indeed a nazi when asked, so good for them.
And I'd like to ask you something for my own curiosity; feel free to tell me it's none of my business if you don't care to answer, because I realize that it isn't. Any sane person realizes that Nazis are evil, but you have a passion for the topic that goes beyond typical. Is there some reason behind that?
You're making a pseudo-legal argument. This isn't a court. Does a company have a legal duty to inform people about X? Irrelevant.
A better analogy would be public relations. Will the public feel betrayed if a company keeps Y a secret, and it comes out later? Did they, even by omission instead of commission, support something odious? This will inevitably affect how people will see the company, going forward. And it may tarnish their reputation, perhaps irreparably. There are ways of handling it better, even if it's unpleasant coming forward with something like this. Though of course it's more than just public relations, because there's also a moral component.
And as someone who despises tyranny in all forms, I find your analogy very distasteful. Tyranny involves compulsion or force, and there is nothing of that nature involved.
Every law comes from someone's morals. Law, ethics, and morals are inextricably intertwined. The same types of reasoning are used to to examine the validity of all of them. It's totally relevant.
The premise that I'm arguing against is "One must disclose the wrong thinking of others even when no harm is being done or face repercussions." Repercussions are compulsion, and enough of them is tyranny. If you agree with the above premise and despise tyranny, you should examine your thinking for consistency.
Quote from: Mishihari on March 22, 2022, 08:24:53 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 08:08:50 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on March 22, 2022, 07:29:31 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:43:25 PM
FACT: the Tekumel Foundation knew about this for a time period of at least two years and possibly as long as ten years, but kept it covered up because their own clout was more important.
Did they really? Covering something up is positive action and implies a lot more activity than just staying silent about a distasteful act. I haven't seen anything here that implies they did more than just keep quiet.
You think there's some ethical requirement that they must publicize distasteful information if they prefer to keep silent. Legally, ethically, morally, the case for requiring positive action such as this must meet a pretty high standard, because it's such an impairment of personal liberty. For example under US law you're not allowed to murder, but you're also not required to take positive action to save a life even if you're right there and have the means. This comes up in the news every once in a while. Morally I do think there's a duty take action here but the point is that we are uncomfortable requiring positive action, and for good reason.
I'm really uncomfortable with requiring positive action to report someone who is thinking wrong. First, because this is an established tactic of totalitarians such as the USSR, the fictional 1984 government, and actual nazis. Second because such requirements can be more easily turned to an evil rather than a good use. Tyrants love this sort of thing. Creating a norm of required disclosure is dangerous to the freedom of our society. In the current political climate it's more likely to be used against you personally than any bad actors.
My opinion is that morally one must disclose information to prevent harm, but this case doesn't meet that standard. The media in question is harmless, the nazi in question isn't currently doing anything bad because he's dead, and there's no evidence that the estate is doing anything wrong with the money. As far as I'm concerned the foundation didn't do anything wrong by keeping quiet, and they did more than they had to by confirming that Barker was indeed a nazi when asked, so good for them.
And I'd like to ask you something for my own curiosity; feel free to tell me it's none of my business if you don't care to answer, because I realize that it isn't. Any sane person realizes that Nazis are evil, but you have a passion for the topic that goes beyond typical. Is there some reason behind that?
You're making a pseudo-legal argument. This isn't a court. Does a company have a legal duty to inform people about X? Irrelevant.
A better analogy would be public relations. Will the public feel betrayed if a company keeps Y a secret, and it comes out later? Did they, even by omission instead of commission, support something odious? This will inevitably affect how people will see the company, going forward. And it may tarnish their reputation, perhaps irreparably. There are ways of handling it better, even if it's unpleasant coming forward with something like this. Though of course it's more than just public relations, because there's also a moral component.
And as someone who despises tyranny in all forms, I find your analogy very distasteful. Tyranny involves compulsion or force, and there is nothing of that nature involved.
Every law comes from someone's morals. Law, ethics, and morals are inextricably intertwined. The same types of reasoning are used to to examine the validity of all of them. It's totally relevant.
The premise that I'm arguing against is "One must disclose the wrong thinking of others even when no harm is being done or face repercussions." Repercussions are compulsion, and enough of them is tyranny. If you agree with the above premise and despise tyranny, you should examine your thinking for consistency.
You're literally arguing that holding people responsible for anything, or even speaking negatively about them, is tyranny. Replying to me is tyranny!
What I get out of all this is that Tekumel will now be played just as much as it was before.
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 07:56:13 PMI was making the point that their reasons didn't matter, only their actions.
There I think we will probably have to agree to disagree; I think motive
is important in any situation where one is talking about moral responsibility, because that's ultimately what this boils down to. It does make a difference why people do things.
Given that motive is unfalsifiable in this case, I suggest that one way we can distinguish our reaction from the TBP-style modding so frequently criticized in these parts is to try to assume the best of the people in question rather than the worst. That said, I can also understand the point of view which would make someone less willing to extend this benefit of doubt.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 22, 2022, 08:57:08 PM
What I get out of all this is that Tekumel will now be played just as much as it was before.
Well it will be played marginally more for as long as two months due to a momentary mini-spike in reprint sales due to this publicity, then return to default levels.
Also Russian piracy sites will see a brief increase in traffic from people downloading 'Serpent's Walk', and maybe 'Man of Gold' and 'Flamesong' (they don't have the other 2000s novels) and the revenue generated from malware clicks will help fund the war effort in Ukraine.
It's also possible that due to all this stress, some of the old hippies at the Tekumel Foundation will increase their marijuana consumption.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 22, 2022, 08:57:08 PM
What I get out of all this is that Tekumel will now be played just as much as it was before.
Probably moreso if the attacks on the foundation are proven to be in the wrong. Which those accusing the foundation are already drifting dangerously into without even any supporting evidence they are right or wrong.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 22, 2022, 07:53:39 PM
He gave himself a name suggesting he agreed with Hitler about tours,
I know you think you're extremely clever in finding the "Tours Conspiracy" ::), but...
1. The first name of the Muslim General is NOT Mohammed.
2. Abd Al Rahman is a common Muslim first name/surname in Pakistan, among other countries. Ar-Rahman is one of the most common names of Allah, it starts every chapter of the Quran, Muslims use it saying grace, etc, etc.
Ten seconds of research is all that's needed to see that's a big nothingburger.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 22, 2022, 09:28:14 PM
Given that motive is unfalsifiable in this case, I suggest that one way we can distinguish our reaction from the TBP-style modding so frequently criticized in these parts is to try to assume the best of the people in question rather than the worst. That said, I can also understand the point of view which would make someone less willing to extend this benefit of doubt.
Except, again. We do not know the reason why they sat on it. There is a vast world of difference between not knowing what the hell to do with the information. And going "nya-ha-ha! No one must know our evil plot!"
Especially in light of how other groups have been treated when just one member flips out. Time and again the while group gets damned for that one persons actions. Fear of accusations of Guilt by Association is a valid reason to not talk.
And look at what is happening now. People are eager to declare them absolutely guilty without even trying to discern what happened to cause them to sit on the information. As if sitting on the information is the only evidence needed to damn them. It is not.
Quote from: crkrueger on March 22, 2022, 09:58:05 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 22, 2022, 07:53:39 PM
He gave himself a name suggesting he agreed with Hitler about tours,
I know you think you're extremely clever in finding the "Tours Conspiracy" ::), but...
1. The first name of the Muslim General is NOT Mohammed.
2. Abd Al Rahman is a common Muslim first name/surname in Pakistan, among other countries. Ar-Rahman is one of the most common names of Allah, it starts every chapter of the Quran, Muslims use it saying grace, etc, etc.
Ten seconds of research is all that's needed to see that's a big nothingburger.
Or it could be a name chosen specifically because it looks innocuous, but in hindsight looks like a wink at Hitler. There are a lot of "common names," and Mr. Barker was not Pakistani, so I'd bet a nickel it's not a coincidence. The reason I made the connection in the first place was because I was looking up the date of the Battle of Tours on Wikipedia and that name kind of jumped out at me. Sure, there is no proof of anything, and there probably never will be. I personally don't think Mr. Barker would have named himself that without noticing the historical connection.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 22, 2022, 09:28:14 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 07:56:13 PMI was making the point that their reasons didn't matter, only their actions.
There I think we will probably have to agree to disagree; I think motive is important in any situation where one is talking about moral responsibility, because that's ultimately what this boils down to. It does make a difference why people do things.
Given that motive is unfalsifiable in this case, I suggest that one way we can distinguish our reaction from the TBP-style modding so frequently criticized in these parts is to try to assume the best of the people in question rather than the worst. That said, I can also understand the point of view which would make someone less willing to extend this benefit of doubt.
I think that quickly gets into hate crime territory, where we're punishing people based on their supposed inner thoughts, which I find morally objectionable. People should be judged based on their actions, not mind reading.
Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 10:07:10 PM
And look at what is happening now. People are eager to declare them absolutely guilty without even trying to discern what happened to cause them to sit on the information. As if sitting on the information is the only evidence needed to damn them. It is not.
Sure it is (though I wouldn't use your word, "damn"). What motive could conceivably matter?
Quote from: pawsplay on March 22, 2022, 10:11:33 PM
Quote from: crkrueger on March 22, 2022, 09:58:05 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 22, 2022, 07:53:39 PM
He gave himself a name suggesting he agreed with Hitler about tours,
I know you think you're extremely clever in finding the "Tours Conspiracy" ::), but...
1. The first name of the Muslim General is NOT Mohammed.
2. Abd Al Rahman is a common Muslim first name/surname in Pakistan, among other countries. Ar-Rahman is one of the most common names of Allah, it starts every chapter of the Quran, Muslims use it saying grace, etc, etc.
Ten seconds of research is all that's needed to see that's a big nothingburger.
Or it could be a name chosen specifically because it looks innocuous, but in hindsight looks like a wink at Hitler. There are a lot of "common names," and Mr. Barker was not Pakistani, so I'd bet a nickel it's not a coincidence. The reason I made the connection in the first place was because I was looking up the date of the Battle of Tours on Wikipedia and that name kind of jumped out at me. Sure, there is no proof of anything, and there probably never will be. I personally don't think Mr. Barker would have named himself that without noticing the historical connection.
His wife is Pakistani and Urdu is one of the languages he specialized in. Your "historical connection" is the equivalent of two guys named Jones.
He wrote the fictional book The Serpent's Walk under an assumed name.
He also wrote
Bridging Cultural Divides through Fantasy/Science-Fiction Role-Playing Games and Fictional Religion under his own name.
He spent his life studying non-white languages and non-white cultures. Are the Basque and Klamath Native Americans big amongst the "Orientalist" community? ???
There's two facts, that I'll give you, don't look good.
Then there's the entire rest of his life.
If the guy was a closet Nazi, he'll have written about it somewhere other than fiction. Letters, notes, etc. It will come out, I'm sure.
There's no need to engage in magical thinking or be seized by Apophenia and see the number 23 everywhere.
Maye I've just spent too much time reading about Hitler. That's still not the same thing as "the number 23."
Quote from: crkrueger on March 22, 2022, 10:37:33 PM
His wife is Pakistani and Urdu is one of the languages he specialized in.
I wonder if this is why the book makes so many jabs at Israel and repeatedly brings up how badly they treated Pakistan?
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 22, 2022, 08:57:08 PM
What I get out of all this is that Tekumel will now be played just as much as it was before.
An esoteric game by an obscure author with far less reach than its fans would have it.
Quote from: David Johansen on March 23, 2022, 01:01:11 AM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 22, 2022, 08:57:08 PM
What I get out of all this is that Tekumel will now be played just as much as it was before.
An esoteric game by an obscure author with far less reach than its fans would have it.
Probably something like how The Fantasy Trip is still popular yet also obscure at the same time. Tekumel lives on the richness of the setting. It also does on that same richness. I think the Adventures on set was a great idea. Ease the player into the game and setting before pummeling them insensate with the boxed set. heh.
QuoteThe first Velvet Underground album only sold 10,000 copies, but everyone who bought it formed a band"
- Brian Eno (apocryphally)
That's Tekumel for you.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 23, 2022, 01:17:48 AM
QuoteThe first Velvet Underground album only sold 10,000 copies, but everyone who bought it formed a band"
- Brian Eno (apocryphally)
That's Tekumel for you.
Are you saying that M.A.R. Barker was a cheap, cynical, woman-beating junkie who wrote some of the dumbest lyrics ever put to paper, on top of being a Nazi?
Seems he was even more of a Renaissance man than I'd reckoned, but does this mean he gets put on time out twice, or does the 'cross dressing fake homo' stuff cancel out the Nazi thing, and he gets to skate?
Or does this just mean I have to flip my gatefold copy of VU & Nico into the nearest landfill?
Quote from: Abraxus on March 22, 2022, 07:28:34 AM
@Pundit
I am not pro-Nazi so fuck off with that shit let's be very crystal clear on that point.
Now if anyone else besides Cucksuck Soyarmy had posted this, and was a poster with a history arguing points in good faith and stirring shit on this site. Well you know how he is.
Your letting yourself be played because he did research on you and found you hate Nazi. How does he sow chaos and discord on this site between you and members. He make a list about barker being pro-Nazi.
Dude, this is being talked about on every RPG forum, and all over social media. Did tubesock post it here with bad intent? Probably, he posts almost everything here with bad intent. Does that change anything? No. It's certainly big and shocking news in the whole RPG world.
QuoteThen again between this thread and Twitter you have shown yourself to be unwilling to be wrong on anything. Heaven forbid the grand Pundiit be wrong. Not on this topic just in general. Someone disagrees with you and the attacks against their character or in general begin. Sorry but I'm not getting paid to kiss your ass.
What the hell am I wrong about? The evidence is overwhelming that Barker was a nazi. That's beyond doubt at this point. That the Tekumel Foundation knew about it and covered it up is also absolutely proven,
they admitted it. The only thing in question is whether they covered it up for two years (which some people claim) or ten (which Chirine claims); and notably the Tekumel Foundation have suspiciously avoided saying how long they knew.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 22, 2022, 07:40:30 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 22, 2022, 02:39:07 AM
The idea that I'm somehow the one being inconsistent is ridiculous. I literally banned an anti-semite from this forum last week. The people who are being inconsistent are the ones who complain about leftist racial politics but who would seemingly throw themselves on a grenade to try to deny the overwhelming evidence of Barker having secretly been a piece of shit.
No, you are being inconsistent. You are doing exactly what the group of people you rail against do by making false equivalences and compelling speech from others. You were yelling at a longtime member to declare himself a Nazi or a moronic cunt. You threatened a ban over it.
No I didn't. I told him to either answer my question, or stop being a spammer and leave the thread.
QuoteThis is your button, and the trolls know it. It is common knowledge that nothing sets you off like anti-Semitism. So if I wanted to fuck with your RPG forum, I'd probably do exactly what Tubesock did which is start this topic pretending like I didn't know who/what Barker or Tekumel was, just to see if I could draw some of the community offsides. After all, I'm a feckless troll who only exists to disrupt the members.
But by in large, nobody took the bait, so he switched to the crocodile tears about the fall of a legend. Any spark to light the fire. Go back and see how quick he turned me pointing out the inconsistencies of what he said about knowing Barker into being a Nazi sympathizer. That was the goal all along.
Not a single person has sympathized with a Nazi or anti-Semite. You have surrounded yourself by free thinkers who ask questions and refuse to have their free speech compelled. They're not going to break their values for Barker, and they are not going to break them for you.
There were literally a shitload of people on this thread who rushed to try to use any tactic at all not to just say that Barker was what he was: a fucking Nazi. A REAL (neo-)Nazi, but they were acting like this was all some kind of SJW plot, like they invented a fucking time machine and published the novel and faked being Barker to get a place on the board of a major holocaust-denial propaganda rag just to score one on the conservatives or something.
The level of hysterical denial reached such peaks as suggesting that maybe Barker was some kind of double-agent or CIA agent trying to... what? Blow the whole neo-nazi plot wide open?
Quote
Nazis and anti-Semites are objectively bad, representing the very worst of humanity. Hearing you talk in the past, I think we share more than a few things in common on this subject, but I do not leverage my personal life and family in arguments on forums about wizards and dragons. And they do not hold power over me today. Trolls could not do to me what they have done to you.
If people leave it is not because they are Nazis, neo-Nazi, or whatever term you and your temporary bedfellows like to throw around on people they do not agree with. It will be because this place no longer talks about RPGs, or is no longer the place for free speech or ideas.
No one did anything to me. I don't need some kind of manipulation to condemn a fucking Nazi. This isn't "someone I don't agree with", it's not that I'm calling out someone with different views from me on drug legalization or public education, it's someone reprehensible promoting the most reprehensible form of collectivism. The fact that so many people are more worried about "the left scoring points" to the point of laying covering fire for neo-nazis that are constantly trying to cozy up to the right (while using "the SJWs suck you guys and they call everyone nazis so we should all totally stick together and you should let us talk about how evil the Jews are" as their own entryist tactic) is seriously disappointing, because it means the Left has gotten so far into people's heads that they've lost all sense of priorities or consistency. Race-Theory Collectivists are not ever on "our side". They're always the enemy, the CRT-Right is no different from the CRT-Left, they're both monsters.
Quote from: Abraxus on March 22, 2022, 09:54:42 AM
Cucksuck Soyarmy must be enjoying this.
Pretending to be the innocent bearer of truth while we are at each other throats.
Lets not give him that satisfaction.
He wouldn't have gotten that satisfaction if the people on this forums, the vast majority of whom I assume are not Nazis, would have said "yeah, what a piece of shit Barker turned out to be"; instead of rushing to try to figure out how to cover for him just because their tits got all tight at the thought of any leftist gloating.
Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 05:04:25 PM
Part of the pushback against Pundit is that there is far as I know so far no clear timeline of when the Foundation learned of all this. But Pundit has declared them Nazi supporters and accused them of deliberately concealing this.
If thats true then what about Cherine who learned this apparently a decade ago. And yet on this very forum has said not a damn thing about it? And he has posted here as of I think a year ago. Maybe 2. Before my accident Im pretty sure.
Is he damned as well for not telling everyone?
1. The Tekumel Foundation has essentially admitted that it knew about this previously. They refused to say how long previously, but Chirine claims that at least two members of the Foundation knew about it as soon as he did.
2. It's not great that Chirine didn't come forward with this, but it is more forgivable, first and foremost because he does not profit from Barker's work. His reason for not coming forward was undoubtedly personal (he was one of Barker's players) and not for a profit-motive.
Quote from: Mishihari on March 22, 2022, 07:29:31 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:43:25 PM
FACT: the Tekumel Foundation knew about this for a time period of at least two years and possibly as long as ten years, but kept it covered up because their own clout was more important.
Did they really? Covering something up is positive action and implies a lot more activity than just staying silent about a distasteful act. I haven't seen anything here that implies they did more than just keep quiet.
You think there's some ethical requirement that they must publicize distasteful information if they prefer to keep silent. Legally, ethically, morally, the case for requiring positive action such as this must meet a pretty high standard, because it's such an impairment of personal liberty. For example under US law you're not allowed to murder, but you're also not required to take positive action to save a life even if you're right there and have the means. This comes up in the news every once in a while. Morally I do think there's a duty take action here but the point is that we are uncomfortable requiring positive action, and for good reason.
I'm really uncomfortable with requiring positive action to report someone who is thinking wrong. First, because this is an established tactic of totalitarians such as the USSR, the fictional 1984 government, and actual nazis. Second because such requirements can be more easily turned to an evil rather than a good use. Tyrants love this sort of thing. Creating a norm of required disclosure is dangerous to the freedom of our society. In the current political climate it's more likely to be used against you personally than any bad actors.
My opinion is that morally one must disclose information to prevent harm, but this case doesn't meet that standard. The media in question is harmless, the nazi in question isn't currently doing anything bad because he's dead, and there's no evidence that the estate is doing anything wrong with the money. As far as I'm concerned the foundation didn't do anything wrong by keeping quiet, and they did more than they had to by confirming that Barker was indeed a nazi when asked, so good for them.
If I found out a business partner of mine, or someone whose copyrights I'd somehow inherited, was a Nazi, I would feel I had an ethical responsibility to disclose it.
QuoteAnd I'd like to ask you something for my own curiosity; feel free to tell me it's none of my business if you don't care to answer, because I realize that it isn't. Any sane person realizes that Nazis are evil, but you have a passion for the topic that goes beyond typical. Is there some reason behind that?
Four of my great-grandparents died in Nazi concentration camps. My family lost most of its fortune in the Nazi invasion of Poland. My grandfather spent the war behind enemy lines in disguise, operating as a spy and falsifying documents to help hide people who would have been victims of the Nazis (including but not exclusively Jewish people).
Personally I am in favour of distinguishing between Right-Libertarians and Neo-Nazis. I am against the SJW efforts (and the Neo-Nazi efforts) to conflate the two.
#IstandwithPundit
Quote from: SHARK on March 22, 2022, 08:05:15 PM
I imagine the Tekumel Board people just said, "Yeah, the Professor is dead. No point in publicizing any strange things he was into. Just forget about it and let it sink into the oblivion of time. There is the "Public Professor" and the "Private Professor". Let the "Private Professor" remain as such, in a similar manner to which any normal person would also prefer their "Private Selves" to remain separate."
This isn't like if it was revealed Barker liked to wear women's clothing while having longshoremen poop on his face. It wasn't some kind of embarrassing private pecadillo. It was him being an active participant for a very long period of his life in the American Neo-Nazi movement.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 02:16:30 AM
He wouldn't have gotten that satisfaction if the people on this forums, the vast majority of whom I assume are not Nazis, would have said "yeah, what a piece of shit Barker turned out to be"; instead of rushing to try to figure out how to cover for him just because their tits got all tight at the thought of any leftist gloating.
Refusing to call MAR a Neo-Nazi, or even condemn what he did, because of reflexive anti-SJWism, reminds me of all the people who are so used to condemning the USA for its own bad behaviour, that they are now incapable of condemning Russia for invading Ukraine. Sometimes the mainstream narrative is correct.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 22, 2022, 10:11:33 PM
Quote from: crkrueger on March 22, 2022, 09:58:05 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 22, 2022, 07:53:39 PM
He gave himself a name suggesting he agreed with Hitler about tours,
I know you think you're extremely clever in finding the "Tours Conspiracy" ::), but...
1. The first name of the Muslim General is NOT Mohammed.
2. Abd Al Rahman is a common Muslim first name/surname in Pakistan, among other countries. Ar-Rahman is one of the most common names of Allah, it starts every chapter of the Quran, Muslims use it saying grace, etc, etc.
Ten seconds of research is all that's needed to see that's a big nothingburger.
Or it could be a name chosen specifically because it looks innocuous, but in hindsight looks like a wink at Hitler. There are a lot of "common names," and Mr. Barker was not Pakistani, so I'd bet a nickel it's not a coincidence. The reason I made the connection in the first place was because I was looking up the date of the Battle of Tours on Wikipedia and that name kind of jumped out at me. Sure, there is no proof of anything, and there probably never will be. I personally don't think Mr. Barker would have named himself that without noticing the historical connection.
"OR IT COULD BE!! I CAN'T PROVE IT, HELL NO ONE CAN! BUT I BET IT'S SO!"
You find that straw you've been grasping at with this one?
Is it not enough to point out the obvious about the dude being some manner of Neo-Nazi without descending in to Alex Jones tier conspiracy hysterics about his fucking name?
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 22, 2022, 08:57:08 PM
What I get out of all this is that Tekumel will now be played just as much as it was before.
People actually play Tekumel?
Quote from: jeff37923 on March 23, 2022, 05:30:29 AM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 22, 2022, 08:57:08 PM
What I get out of all this is that Tekumel will now be played just as much as it was before.
People actually play Tekumel?
Well, they blog about it.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 02:26:26 AM
Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 05:04:25 PM
Part of the pushback against Pundit is that there is far as I know so far no clear timeline of when the Foundation learned of all this. But Pundit has declared them Nazi supporters and accused them of deliberately concealing this.
If thats true then what about Cherine who learned this apparently a decade ago. And yet on this very forum has said not a damn thing about it? And he has posted here as of I think a year ago. Maybe 2. Before my accident Im pretty sure.
Is he damned as well for not telling everyone?
1. The Tekumel Foundation has essentially admitted that it knew about this previously. They refused to say how long previously, but Chirine claims that at least two members of the Foundation knew about it as soon as he did.
2. It's not great that Chirine didn't come forward with this, but it is more forgivable, first and foremost because he does not profit from Barker's work. His reason for not coming forward was undoubtedly personal (he was one of Barker's players) and not for a profit-motive.
So the Foundation gets hell, but Chirine gets a pass? Because... feelings? Really? Chirine has feelings and can keep quiet because hes not profiting, but the foundation cant because they cant have feelings?
Again. We do not know why they kept quiet. For all we know Chirine asked them to not talk about it. For all we know the foundation forged the manuscript and placed it somewhere Chrine could find to discredit Barker. Theres any number of reasons and just jumping to the conclusion that they did it for greed is goes directly against everything you have been fighting here on this forum against what the SJWs do to people. And what did they do about this incident. Thats right. They LIED. Just to fan the flames. And if they have lied about three things. What else is a lie? They've probably added another in the time its taken me to type this out.
What is not a lie? I am sorry Dee. But Barker did write that book. And he wrote it with not one, but two agendas. And he put his agenda ahead of the other. In a way I was right at the beginning in postulating that maybe Barker did this as a subversion. I was just dead wrong about the intent. There is nothing good intentioned in Serpent's Walk. (or at least not in the normal sane definition of good intentioned...)
Quote from: S'mon on March 23, 2022, 02:40:38 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 02:16:30 AM
He wouldn't have gotten that satisfaction if the people on this forums, the vast majority of whom I assume are not Nazis, would have said "yeah, what a piece of shit Barker turned out to be"; instead of rushing to try to figure out how to cover for him just because their tits got all tight at the thought of any leftist gloating.
Refusing to call MAR a Neo-Nazi, or even condemn what he did, because of reflexive anti-SJWism, reminds me of all the people who are so used to condemning the USA for its own bad behaviour, that they are now incapable of condemning Russia for invading Ukraine. Sometimes the mainstream narrative is correct.
Except no one here has refused to call Barker a Neo-Nazi. Nice try though and you proved me right that someone would lie while I was fucking typing out a response. Bravo.
Members have refused to call the foundation Nazis without some proof that they did it for greed or nefarious reasons just because they sat on the info. Especially when threatened to do so.
Quote from: jeff37923 on March 23, 2022, 05:30:29 AM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 22, 2022, 08:57:08 PM
What I get out of all this is that Tekumel will now be played just as much as it was before.
People actually play Tekumel?
Well... I did?
(After years of hunting down the Adventures on books I was missing, and the attendant boxed set.)
I still have Monard's explanation of why things went to heck with that project.
I generally agree with the sentiment that "due process" is required here. I think we all agree that we are happy to accept positive news at face value - but in a case like this one, one that essentially asks the entire community to show some kind of even passive reaction, I want to see what this is really about.
Two truths:
1. We only have a few press releases on Barker, so far, not the respective texts.
2. This case, specifically, and not just in principle, could plausibly turn out to have a different context than the one suggested:
-- Especially 1980s and 1990s academia, it used to be perfectly normal to be a member of some obscure society, and to never know anything about them beyond putting your signature on their membership registration. So, it's going to make a significant difference how exactly Barker participated in that historical society he was allegedly a member of, even if he held a title within that society. (Which also is something very common in smaller associations.)
-- The content and the publication history of the novel, and possible changes to the original manuscript that were made by the publisher. Who knows, for all we know, Barker might have believed he was writing a fantasy version of "Springtime For Hitler". Thing is, we don't know until we get a proper look at the material.
Now, to be clear, I wasn't in the least surprised by these news, and I consider the possibility of them being quite accurate to be very, very likely. I'm also not writing this in ignorance of the fact that Barker clearly actively pursued some of the things that have now come to light. Him writing a novel and giving it to THAT publisher, not much room there to argue on his behalf.
----- Still so, people should not be able to destroy another person's legacy based on hearsay alone.
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
1. We only have a few press releases on Barker, so far, not the respective texts.
Incorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
2. As long as we don't have more than that, the case, specifically, and not just in principle, could plausibly turn out to have a different context than the one suggested:
Incorrect. The Tekumel Foundation admitted it.
Now, there is a possibility that he's really innocent and this was some convoluted combination of deception, infiltration and/or ignorance. But there's also the chance that the Sun will go supernova tomorrow. It's just not likely. Really not likely. Ridiculously unlikely.
By the standards by which any other publisher is judged -- e.g. the entire red list -- the evidence is extraordinarily strong. If we stand by the principle that everyone should be judged by the same standards, either every Woke publisher must be exculpated, or we should stop making apologies for Barker.
Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 05:52:44 AM
So the Foundation gets hell, but Chirine gets a pass? Because... feelings? Really? Chirine has feelings and can keep quiet because hes not profiting, but the foundation cant because they cant have feelings?
Again. We do not know why they kept quiet. For all we know Chirine asked them to not talk about it. For all we know the foundation forged the manuscript and placed it somewhere Chrine could find to discredit Barker. Theres any number of reasons and just jumping to the conclusion that they did it for greed is goes directly against everything you have been fighting here on this forum against what the SJWs do to people. And what did they do about this incident. Thats right. They LIED. Just to fan the flames. And if they have lied about three things. What else is a lie? They've probably added another in the time its taken me to type this out.
What is not a lie? I am sorry Dee. But Barker did write that book. And he wrote it with not one, but two agendas. And he put his agenda ahead of the other. In a way I was right at the beginning in postulating that maybe Barker did this as a subversion. I was just dead wrong about the intent. There is nothing good intentioned in Serpent's Walk. (or at least not in the normal sane definition of good intentioned...)
Agreed and seconded .
Pundits rules seem to change on if he knows you or if you are a friend. So Chrine gets a free pass because of " reasons and feels " yet the TF does not because they made money of Barkers works. How very SJW of Pundit.
@ Pundit saying you never planned to ban Tenbones then say he should leave the forum if he does not answer your questions to your utmost satisfaction is the same damn thing.
Quote from: Abraxus on March 23, 2022, 08:37:40 AM
Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 05:52:44 AM
So the Foundation gets hell, but Chirine gets a pass? Because... feelings? Really? Chirine has feelings and can keep quiet because hes not profiting, but the foundation cant because they cant have feelings?
Again. We do not know why they kept quiet. For all we know Chirine asked them to not talk about it. For all we know the foundation forged the manuscript and placed it somewhere Chrine could find to discredit Barker. Theres any number of reasons and just jumping to the conclusion that they did it for greed is goes directly against everything you have been fighting here on this forum against what the SJWs do to people. And what did they do about this incident. Thats right. They LIED. Just to fan the flames. And if they have lied about three things. What else is a lie? They've probably added another in the time its taken me to type this out.
What is not a lie? I am sorry Dee. But Barker did write that book. And he wrote it with not one, but two agendas. And he put his agenda ahead of the other. In a way I was right at the beginning in postulating that maybe Barker did this as a subversion. I was just dead wrong about the intent. There is nothing good intentioned in Serpent's Walk. (or at least not in the normal sane definition of good intentioned...)
Agreed and seconded .
Pundits rules seem to change on if he knows you or if you are a friend. So Chrine gets a free pass because of " reasons and feels " yet the TF does not because they made money of Barkers works. How very SJW of Pundit.
@ Pundit saying you never planned to ban Tenbones then say he should leave the forum if he does not answer your questions to your utmost satisfaction is the same damn thing.
I think this may be the crux of the disagreement.
Because everything you and Omega just said about Pundit? It seems to be pure projection. From my perspective,
you two are the ones who are treating people differently, apparently based on your feelings. Any other company would have been on the red list, with no question. And Chirine doesn't go on the red list, because
Chirine isn't a publisher. The whole point of the red list, after all, is to warn people about publishers. For me, that's a picture perfect example of applying the same standards to everyone, regardless of whether you like them or not. Whereas your position is attempting to carve out an exception, for someone you apparently like. I can't see any rational basis at all for your stance.
Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AM
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
1. We only have a few press releases on Barker, so far, not the respective texts.
Incorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
2. As long as we don't have more than that, the case, specifically, and not just in principle, could plausibly turn out to have a different context than the one suggested:
Incorrect. The Tekumel Foundation admitted it.
Now, there is a possibility that he's really innocent and this was some convoluted combination of deception, infiltration and/or ignorance. But there's also the chance that the Sun will go supernova tomorrow. It's just not likely. Really not likely. Ridiculously unlikely.
By the standards by which any other publisher is judged -- e.g. the entire red list -- the evidence is extraordinarily strong. If we stand by the principle that everyone should be judged by the same standards, either every Woke publisher must be exculpated, or we should stop making apologies for Barker.
Is there any evidence that Barker or the Tekumel society were particularly "woke"?
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/
As the title suggests, the impetus for the thread was companies that were/are alienating some of their customers via their "woke" stances. Someone may not like that the list is partisan, but it's right there in the title from day one. A browse of the reasons why certain publishers are on the list include a lot of particular political and social stances.
Maybe if he's so concerned, Tubesock can create "A guide to neo-Nazi game companies". And put the Tekumel society on his red list.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 23, 2022, 09:20:39 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AM
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
1. We only have a few press releases on Barker, so far, not the respective texts.
Incorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
2. As long as we don't have more than that, the case, specifically, and not just in principle, could plausibly turn out to have a different context than the one suggested:
Incorrect. The Tekumel Foundation admitted it.
Now, there is a possibility that he's really innocent and this was some convoluted combination of deception, infiltration and/or ignorance. But there's also the chance that the Sun will go supernova tomorrow. It's just not likely. Really not likely. Ridiculously unlikely.
By the standards by which any other publisher is judged -- e.g. the entire red list -- the evidence is extraordinarily strong. If we stand by the principle that everyone should be judged by the same standards, either every Woke publisher must be exculpated, or we should stop making apologies for Barker.
Is there any evidence that Barker or the Tekumel society were particularly "woke"?
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/
As the title suggests, the impetus for the thread was companies that were/are alienating some of their customers via their "woke" stances. Someone may not like that the list is partisan, but it's right there in the title from day one. A browse of the reasons why certain publishers are on the list include a lot of particular political and social stances.
Maybe if he's so concerned, Tubesock can create "A guide to neo-Nazi game companies". And put the Tekumel society on his red list.
That is a very good point. Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke. Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke. He should call it degrees of to far right maybe? He could have a little too right be people who ever voted republican. Far right be people who are concerned about their daughters having to enter a bathroom with a man. The new nazis (because lets face it, besides Varg and M.A.R., it is going to be slim pickings on finding publishers of nazi authors, unless we put Amazon on there for still distributing Mein Kampf and up till a year ago the Turner diaries) he can let be anyone who opposes affirmative action.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 23, 2022, 09:20:39 AM
Is there any evidence that Barker or the Tekumel society were particularly "woke"?
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/
As the title suggests, the impetus for the thread was companies that were/are alienating some of their customers via their "woke" stances. Someone may not like that the list is partisan, but it's right there in the title from day one. A browse of the reasons why certain publishers are on the list include a lot of particular political and social stances.
Varg isn't woke, either. And is on the list.
I've argued repeatedly, with some minor success, that the list should include all bad actors. Specifically, those who practice or support exclusion. While majority are Woke, because Wokism is the largest and most bigoted group in politics, it shouldn't be partisan. Anyone who behaves that way should qualify, regardless of their political stripes.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 23, 2022, 09:20:39 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AM
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
1. We only have a few press releases on Barker, so far, not the respective texts.
Incorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
2. As long as we don't have more than that, the case, specifically, and not just in principle, could plausibly turn out to have a different context than the one suggested:
Incorrect. The Tekumel Foundation admitted it.
Now, there is a possibility that he's really innocent and this was some convoluted combination of deception, infiltration and/or ignorance. But there's also the chance that the Sun will go supernova tomorrow. It's just not likely. Really not likely. Ridiculously unlikely.
By the standards by which any other publisher is judged -- e.g. the entire red list -- the evidence is extraordinarily strong. If we stand by the principle that everyone should be judged by the same standards, either every Woke publisher must be exculpated, or we should stop making apologies for Barker.
Is there any evidence that Barker or the Tekumel society were particularly "woke"?
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/
As the title suggests, the impetus for the thread was companies that were/are alienating some of their customers via their "woke" stances. Someone may not like that the list is partisan, but it's right there in the title from day one. A browse of the reasons why certain publishers are on the list include a lot of particular political and social stances.
Maybe if he's so concerned, Tubesock can create "A guide to neo-Nazi game companies". And put the Tekumel society on his red list.
TheRPGSite: Wokies are the real nazis!!!
Also TheRPGSite: Nazis don't belong on the "red list", that's just for wokies!!!
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 23, 2022, 10:31:20 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 23, 2022, 09:20:39 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AM
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
1. We only have a few press releases on Barker, so far, not the respective texts.
Incorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
2. As long as we don't have more than that, the case, specifically, and not just in principle, could plausibly turn out to have a different context than the one suggested:
Incorrect. The Tekumel Foundation admitted it.
Now, there is a possibility that he's really innocent and this was some convoluted combination of deception, infiltration and/or ignorance. But there's also the chance that the Sun will go supernova tomorrow. It's just not likely. Really not likely. Ridiculously unlikely.
By the standards by which any other publisher is judged -- e.g. the entire red list -- the evidence is extraordinarily strong. If we stand by the principle that everyone should be judged by the same standards, either every Woke publisher must be exculpated, or we should stop making apologies for Barker.
Is there any evidence that Barker or the Tekumel society were particularly "woke"?
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/
As the title suggests, the impetus for the thread was companies that were/are alienating some of their customers via their "woke" stances. Someone may not like that the list is partisan, but it's right there in the title from day one. A browse of the reasons why certain publishers are on the list include a lot of particular political and social stances.
Maybe if he's so concerned, Tubesock can create "A guide to neo-Nazi game companies". And put the Tekumel society on his red list.
TheRPGSite: Wokies are the real nazis!!!
Also TheRPGSite: Nazis don't belong on the "red list", that's just for wokies!!!
They have some similar behaviors, but I know I have never even hinted they are nazis. All non compromising totalitarian bent ideologies have similarities. Just kick up a list of publishers you think are to the right, far right and the new iteration of "Nazis". That seems the best solution, and can be a good guide for folks who do not agree with those thoughts. This way we do not mix up the fasc and the antifasc.
It also makes better sense, as people really should not allow an enemy to decide labels for them from the enemies perspective on their own lists.
So I have a question:
What do you DO with this?
Burn his books? Exhume Barker and try him for the crime of stupid ideology? Urinate on his bones?
Thanks to the blather of wokeists, I am indifferent to 'Nazi' accusations. I don't fucking care. I want to know what crime this dead man has committed that we must pummel ourselves for it.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on March 23, 2022, 10:31:20 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 23, 2022, 09:20:39 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AM
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
1. We only have a few press releases on Barker, so far, not the respective texts.
Incorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
2. As long as we don't have more than that, the case, specifically, and not just in principle, could plausibly turn out to have a different context than the one suggested:
Incorrect. The Tekumel Foundation admitted it.
Now, there is a possibility that he's really innocent and this was some convoluted combination of deception, infiltration and/or ignorance. But there's also the chance that the Sun will go supernova tomorrow. It's just not likely. Really not likely. Ridiculously unlikely.
By the standards by which any other publisher is judged -- e.g. the entire red list -- the evidence is extraordinarily strong. If we stand by the principle that everyone should be judged by the same standards, either every Woke publisher must be exculpated, or we should stop making apologies for Barker.
Is there any evidence that Barker or the Tekumel society were particularly "woke"?
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/
As the title suggests, the impetus for the thread was companies that were/are alienating some of their customers via their "woke" stances. Someone may not like that the list is partisan, but it's right there in the title from day one. A browse of the reasons why certain publishers are on the list include a lot of particular political and social stances.
Maybe if he's so concerned, Tubesock can create "A guide to neo-Nazi game companies". And put the Tekumel society on his red list.
TheRPGSite: Wokies are the real nazis!!!
Also TheRPGSite: Nazis don't belong on the "red list", that's just for wokies!!!
Tubesock: Drat! Someone pointed out the flaw in my argument! I'd better construct a strawman as a distraction!
There is some amazingly sloppy thinking in this thread.
The guy was probably really sad the third reich turned out how it did. So what? He's a creative weirdo. Weird creative people have unorthodox opinions. The man was a creative genius and laid the groundwork for much of fantasy gaming, as has been pointed out.
By example, and I am not saying anything bad about the man, but in Current Year, Greg Stafford would be seen as highly suspect for his interest in creating a fantasy setting based on migration era Europe. Suppose he had some bad views? Do we cancel him? Or does it require him having written something under a pen name? Robert Heinlein certainly had some creative weirdo views, and he openly wrote them under his name. Is he immune, or does it just take the wrong person reading Farham's Freehold to have his corpse raked over the coals? I would say the personal views of Heinlein are far worse than these supposed personal views of Baker.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2022, 11:08:53 AM
So I have a question:
What do you DO with this?
Burn his books? Exhume Barker and try him for the crime of stupid ideology? Urinate on his bones?
Thanks to the blather of wokeists, I am indifferent to 'Nazi' accusations. I don't fucking care. I want to know what crime this dead man has committed that we must pummel ourselves for it.
The suggestion that some posters have made is that his games should be added to the Red list, like how Varg Vikernes game currently is. Then these should be treated like any of the other games in the Red list.
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 12:51:31 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2022, 11:08:53 AM
So I have a question:
What do you DO with this?
Burn his books? Exhume Barker and try him for the crime of stupid ideology? Urinate on his bones?
Thanks to the blather of wokeists, I am indifferent to 'Nazi' accusations. I don't fucking care. I want to know what crime this dead man has committed that we must pummel ourselves for it.
The suggestion that some posters have made is that his games should be added to the Red list, like how Varg Vikernes game currently is. Then these should be treated like any of the other games in the Red list.
I was with that initially, but that is quite specifically a woke list. So I am not so sure nazis belong there. There should simply be a list that goes the other way IMO, from green to red based on how far right the authors go. That list should also be made on another forum, and by people with that concern IMO, leftists.
The amount of "I don't care if they wrote nazi sympathizing auth-right white nationalist works" from users who post dozens of times a week crying that Sarah Michelle Gellar or whoever the fuck else is promoting a leftist targeted RPG product here is staggering, not exactly unexpected given the specific users who are doing it, but it's astounding to me that these people are actually both that transparently stupid and that they're functionally literate enough while apparently not being at ALL self-aware.
If someone cares about the political, cultural, and social stances made by game designers enough to go shitting and crying and vomiting bile all over the internet but when it's revealed that someone was an actual eugenicist and nazi sympathizer and you openly post that you don't give a flying fuck, all they are doing is showcasing exactly how deranged and broken they are as a human being.
Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AMIncorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.
The header I see, the link to the novel I do not. Care to point me to it? Is the text of the actual book online, yes?
The same goes for the mags BEYOND the header. What did Barker actually contribute there? Isn't this stuff supposed to be publicly available?
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AMIncorrect. The Tekumel Foundation admitted it.
But - "admitted", what exactly? Only what people already knew, which is that Barker authored the novel. No word on other details, or on his involvement with the Holcaust-denying scholarly club.
The only statement we have from them so far, at all, is a FB post, over here: https://www.facebook.com/tekumelfoundation/
Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AMNow, there is a possibility that he's really innocent and this was some convoluted combination of deception, infiltration and/or ignorance. But there's also the chance that the Sun will go supernova tomorrow. It's just not likely. Really not likely. Ridiculously unlikely.
Again, I'm not defending Barker - I'm just saying, the supposed offenses are
text-based, not just witnesses talking about past events.
We might never know what exactly happened in other cases - but in this one, there's a fair chance we might get a fairly clear idea of the extent of each offense.
Quote from: DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay on March 23, 2022, 01:10:34 PM
The amount of "I don't care if they wrote nazi sympathizing auth-right white nationalist works" from users who post dozens of times a week crying that Sarah Michelle Gellar or whoever the fuck else is promoting a leftist targeted RPG product here is staggering, not exactly unexpected given the specific users who are doing it, but it's astounding to me that these people are actually both that transparently stupid and that they're functionally literate enough while apparently not being at ALL self-aware.
If someone cares about the political, cultural, and social stances made by game designers enough to go shitting and crying and vomiting bile all over the internet but when it's revealed that someone was an actual eugenicist and nazi sympathizer and you openly post that you don't give a flying fuck, all they are doing is showcasing exactly how deranged and broken they are as a human being.
If I were going to call anyone stupid, I would at least double check my spelling.
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 01:12:10 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AMIncorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.
The header I see, the link to the novel I do not. Care to point me to it? Is the text of the actual book online, yes?
The same goes for the mags BEYOND the header. What did Barker actually contribute there? Isn't this stuff supposed to be publicly available?
I skimmed the first dozen pages of the thread, and I can't find the link again. It might have been to an archive.org page. If anyone has the link to Serpent's Walk, please post.Edit: Found it
https://archive.org/details/CalverhallRandolphO.SerpentsWalk/mode/2up
And it doesn't matter what's beyond the header. He's listed as a contributing editor.
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 01:12:10 PM
But - "admitted", what exactly? Only what people already knew, which is that Barker authored the novel. No word on other details, or on his involvement with the Holcaust-denying scholarly club.
The only statement we have from them so far, at all, is a FB post, over here: https://www.facebook.com/tekumelfoundation/
The TF fb post also confirms his involvement with the journal: "We have done our due diligence to ascertain the facts regarding Serpent's Walk and Professor Barker's affiliation with
The Journal of Historical Review and we believe this needs to be recognized as part of Professor Barker's past." (bold mine)
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 12:54:23 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 12:51:31 PM
The suggestion that some posters have made is that his games should be added to the Red list, like how Varg Vikernes game currently is. Then these should be treated like any of the other games in the Red list.
I was with that initially, but that is quite specifically a woke list. So I am not so sure nazis belong there. There should simply be a list that goes the other way IMO, from green to red based on how far right the authors go. That list should also be made on another forum, and by people with that concern IMO, leftists.
The list strictly speaking is the judgement of just the curator, Ocule, though he has taken input from many people. So the thread title isn't technically correct, but that's true for a lot of thread titles. As Ocule describes the Red list, it's "
Entities who are categorized as Red may have engaged in anti-consumer behavior, deceptive business practices, interfered with other creators or taken a strong political stance or alienated large portions of potential customers. This also includes actual racists or sexist entities. Let the buyer beware.".
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/
As far as the forum as a whole - a lot of posters here who are not leftists still consider genuine neo-nazis to be of concern -- not least among them Pundit himself. Pundit forbids links to neo-nazi and white supremacy sites, and has banned a number of users for expressing anti-semitic views. There are a range of views among posters here, of course, but I think a large chunk seem fine with this.
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 02:00:41 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 12:54:23 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 12:51:31 PM
The suggestion that some posters have made is that his games should be added to the Red list, like how Varg Vikernes game currently is. Then these should be treated like any of the other games in the Red list.
I was with that initially, but that is quite specifically a woke list. So I am not so sure nazis belong there. There should simply be a list that goes the other way IMO, from green to red based on how far right the authors go. That list should also be made on another forum, and by people with that concern IMO, leftists.
The list strictly speaking is the judgement of just the curator, Ocule, though he has taken input from many people. So the thread title isn't technically correct, but that's true for a lot of thread titles. As Ocule describes the Red list, it's "Entities who are categorized as Red may have engaged in anti-consumer behavior, deceptive business practices, interfered with other creators or taken a strong political stance or alienated large portions of potential customers. This also includes actual racists or sexist entities. Let the buyer beware.".
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/
As far as the forum as a whole - a lot of posters here who are not leftists still consider genuine neo-nazis to be of concern -- not least among them Pundit himself. Pundit forbids links to neo-nazi and white supremacy sites, and has banned a number of users for expressing anti-semitic views. There are a range of views among posters here, of course, but I think a large chunk seem fine with this.
Why do you make some example of saying neo nazis are a problem, when that is not the subject at all of the list or the intent of the list. It is also not being debated if they are or are not a problem. I agree they are a problem, just get them their own list. Otherwise, it sure looks like the woke list is being debated and altered by woke people, the enemy of said list. It is always a bad first step to let an enemy define terms IMO. I suggest let people who want to label nazis, make their nazi list. They can in fact call it exactly that and have a green, yellow and a red.
Enough left leaning people here to make their own Nazi list, alt-right list, or whatever else they would like to call it. This forum is at least the sort of place such a list alongside it's extreme polar opposite list could be presented and posted. I am for free speech, but lumping Nazis with woke is IMO no good, since we keep finding all these Nazis, and of course folks who are somewhere between green and nazi, so just make a nazi list and put them in red there. I am sure someone would love to make such a list.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 02:11:07 PM
Why do you make some example of saying neo nazis are a problem, when that is not the subject at all of the list or the intent of the list. It is also not being debated if they are or are not a problem. I agree they are a problem, just get them their own list. Otherwise, it sure looks like the woke list is being debated and altered by woke people, the enemy of said list. It is always a bad first step to let an enemy define terms IMO. I suggest let people who want to label nazis, make their nazi list. They can in fact call it exactly that and have a green, yellow and a red.
It's not me who defined the list that way -- it's Ocule, and he's the one who originated the list and is maintaining it. I was quoting his description of the Red list. If you want your own list that is only purely about left-vs-right politics, then you're welcome to make your own. Though I think a lot of politics doesn't accurately fall on a single line of left-vs-right.
I gather that for many posters -- they want to use the lists to see which companies they don't want to buy from, and they don't want to buy from *either* neo-nazis or wokists. So for them, the current list is more functional for them.
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
-- The content and the publication history of the novel, and possible changes to the original manuscript that were made by the publisher. Who knows, for all we know, Barker might have believed he was writing a fantasy version of "Springtime For Hitler". Thing is, we don't know until we get a proper look at the material.
Working through the book I get the increasing impression that either A: they did not have an editor, or B: did not notice how Barker was framing things. The Nazis in the book are the most mild, bordering on non-nazi characters you could imagine. They spend more time complaining about the unfair treatment Germany got and trying not to get zipped by the Izzies than they do any actual Nazi-ing. The main focus is their struggle against the very aggressive Israel forces who in the book have become a major world power or darn close. And do not get me wrong here. They do talk about the Jews in the book too. But at times it is almost as if they are talking about two different people. And so far not in a derogatory manner. Weirdest stuff ever for a pro-nazi book. Even the supremacist stuff is fairly in the background or being spouted by the brits and americans so far as I am seeing. But they are creating a white only nation and removing anyone not white from that area. Mostly peacefully and again in the background so far. Mostly.
I think Barker partnered with the publisher because he had an axe to grind with Israel and gave the publisher what they wanted. But got far more of what he wanted. A statement against the Israel/Pakistan war. And to show up Israel in a negative light. If I recall right hostilities or outright war was still ongoing at the time of the writing and did not end till a year or two after its publication.
None of which excuses what he did even if any of my guesses are right.
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 02:36:25 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 02:11:07 PM
Why do you make some example of saying neo nazis are a problem, when that is not the subject at all of the list or the intent of the list. It is also not being debated if they are or are not a problem. I agree they are a problem, just get them their own list. Otherwise, it sure looks like the woke list is being debated and altered by woke people, the enemy of said list. It is always a bad first step to let an enemy define terms IMO. I suggest let people who want to label nazis, make their nazi list. They can in fact call it exactly that and have a green, yellow and a red.
It's not me who defined the list that way -- it's Ocule, and he's the one who originated the list and is maintaining it. I was quoting his description of the Red list. If you want your own list that is only purely about left-vs-right politics, then you're welcome to make your own. Though I think a lot of politics doesn't accurately fall on a single line of left-vs-right.
I gather that for many posters -- they want to use the lists to see which companies they don't want to buy from, and they don't want to buy from *either* neo-nazis or wokists. So for them, the current list is more functional for them.
Nah its a woke list. better to keep the cashews separate from the hazel nuts IMO. It was a mistake on his part for letting people who honestly had dubious "concerns" to "help" him define the list.
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 02:36:25 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 02:11:07 PM
Why do you make some example of saying neo nazis are a problem, when that is not the subject at all of the list or the intent of the list. It is also not being debated if they are or are not a problem. I agree they are a problem, just get them their own list. Otherwise, it sure looks like the woke list is being debated and altered by woke people, the enemy of said list. It is always a bad first step to let an enemy define terms IMO. I suggest let people who want to label nazis, make their nazi list. They can in fact call it exactly that and have a green, yellow and a red.
It's not me who defined the list that way -- it's Ocule, and he's the one who originated the list and is maintaining it. I was quoting his description of the Red list. If you want your own list that is only purely about left-vs-right politics, then you're welcome to make your own. Though I think a lot of politics doesn't accurately fall on a single line of left-vs-right.
I gather that for many posters -- they want to use the lists to see which companies they don't want to buy from, and they don't want to buy from *either* neo-nazis or wokists. So for them, the current list is more functional for them.
This is not left or right, it is woke versus nazis. I CONSTANTLY have lefties telling everyone what far right is, and righties saying what is woke, so best to let the experts define their enemies IMO.
Quote from: Abraxus on March 23, 2022, 08:37:40 AMAgreed and seconded .
Pundits rules seem to change on if he knows you or if you are a friend. So Chrine gets a free pass because of " reasons and feels " yet the TF does not because they made money of Barkers works. How very SJW of Pundit.
@ Pundit saying you never planned to ban Tenbones then say he should leave the forum if he does not answer your questions to your utmost satisfaction is the same damn thing.
eh. That at least is understandable reaction. And hate to say it. But there is something in how the foundation has acted that feels... off. Which is why I've never said that they are innocent of wrong. Just that we should not just jump to one negative conclusion without checking the whys of what went down and looking at all the angles and eliminating as many as possible. It undermines Pundits position. And will look exponentially worse if it turns out the foundation sat on the info for valid reasons.
Pointing fingers and snap negative conclusions is what the other side does.
They also do not want anyone actually investigating because sure enough. Things arent quite what they appear. They keep egging Pundit on because they know that if he stops raging and starts examining things rationally that their whole deception will be blown away and he'll come down on them like the wrath of god.
A truth bundled in lies and insinuations. And they couldn't even get the truth right.
So, if we're going to Cancell Barker after his death, and the games he wrote that have exactly ZERO nazi shit on them...
Shouldn't we also cancell ANY game based on Lovecraft's mythos regardless of who developed them?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:53:44 PM
So, if we're going to Cancell Barker after his death, and the games he wrote that have exactly ZERO nazi shit on them...
Shouldn't we also cancell ANY game based on Lovecraft's mythos regardless of who developed them?
Hey, if it gets Fantasy Wargaming the axe... 8)
Though honestly my axe to grind with that RPG is the arrogance and demeaning attitude of the writers and some of their fans. I'd rather not see them red-listed for what I'd like to believe is just trying to be historically accurate. (in a game that then promptly throws that out the window. ahem.) Though the author singling out the Jewish players character still feels very off.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:53:44 PM
So, if we're going to Cancell Barker after his death, and the games he wrote that have exactly ZERO nazi shit on them...
Shouldn't we also cancell ANY game based on Lovecraft's mythos regardless of who developed them?
Well I guess on the Nazi list, he would rate a yellow.
Nazi list: Green = almost everyone
Yellow= Judges guild for having a loon running around making money off of them
MAB Barker - for writing a book with Nazis as the good guys and sitting on a board that asks questions about the holocaust that is determined to be holocaust denial. However his actual game products never hinted at any such ideologies or ideas.
Red = Varg. His game is pretty much all based around nazi propaganda tropes. He also killed a guy. So he is a nazi.
Professor M.A.R. Baker is still only the second worst Ma Baker.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:53:44 PM
So, if we're going to Cancell Barker after his death, and the games he wrote that have exactly ZERO nazi shit on them...
Shouldn't we also cancell ANY game based on Lovecraft's mythos regardless of who developed them?
I'm pretty sure that will get you labeled a Cunt for asking. Or a Nazi(sympathizer) if you press too hard.
Quote from: tenbones on March 23, 2022, 05:20:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:53:44 PM
So, if we're going to Cancell Barker after his death, and the games he wrote that have exactly ZERO nazi shit on them...
Shouldn't we also cancell ANY game based on Lovecraft's mythos regardless of who developed them?
I'm pretty sure that will get you labeled a Cunt for asking. Or a Nazi(sympathizer) if you press too hard.
I self identify as an asshole AND a Dick, anyone calling me a Cunt is missgendering me 8)
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 02:36:25 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 02:11:07 PM
Why do you make some example of saying neo nazis are a problem, when that is not the subject at all of the list or the intent of the list. It is also not being debated if they are or are not a problem. I agree they are a problem, just get them their own list. Otherwise, it sure looks like the woke list is being debated and altered by woke people, the enemy of said list. It is always a bad first step to let an enemy define terms IMO. I suggest let people who want to label nazis, make their nazi list. They can in fact call it exactly that and have a green, yellow and a red.
It's not me who defined the list that way -- it's Ocule, and he's the one who originated the list and is maintaining it. I was quoting his description of the Red list. If you want your own list that is only purely about left-vs-right politics, then you're welcome to make your own. Though I think a lot of politics doesn't accurately fall on a single line of left-vs-right.
I gather that for many posters -- they want to use the lists to see which companies they don't want to buy from, and they don't want to buy from *either* neo-nazis or wokists. So for them, the current list is more functional for them.
Then they can make their own list that caters to their preferences.
Unless the goal here is to infiltrate the woke list and change it to favor a particular "side".
Jeepers, this is all sounding so familiar...
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 23, 2022, 06:33:44 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 02:36:25 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 02:11:07 PM
Why do you make some example of saying neo nazis are a problem, when that is not the subject at all of the list or the intent of the list. It is also not being debated if they are or are not a problem. I agree they are a problem, just get them their own list. Otherwise, it sure looks like the woke list is being debated and altered by woke people, the enemy of said list. It is always a bad first step to let an enemy define terms IMO. I suggest let people who want to label nazis, make their nazi list. They can in fact call it exactly that and have a green, yellow and a red.
It's not me who defined the list that way -- it's Ocule, and he's the one who originated the list and is maintaining it. I was quoting his description of the Red list. If you want your own list that is only purely about left-vs-right politics, then you're welcome to make your own. Though I think a lot of politics doesn't accurately fall on a single line of left-vs-right.
I gather that for many posters -- they want to use the lists to see which companies they don't want to buy from, and they don't want to buy from *either* neo-nazis or wokists. So for them, the current list is more functional for them.
Then they can make their own list that caters to their preferences.
Unless the goal here is to infiltrate the woke list and change it to favor a particular "side".
Jeepers, this is all sounding so familiar...
I don't think the list is being changed to favour one side. To quote the very first post from the "woke list" about the Red category, from back last year:
"Entities who are categorized as Red may have engaged in anti-consumer behavior, deceptive business practices, interfered with other creators or taken a strong political stance or alienated large portions of potential customers. This also includes actual racists or sexist entities. Let the buyer beware."
Neo-nazis certainly fit into the "racists" categorisation.
Quote from: Krazz on March 23, 2022, 07:05:30 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 23, 2022, 06:33:44 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 02:36:25 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 02:11:07 PM
Why do you make some example of saying neo nazis are a problem, when that is not the subject at all of the list or the intent of the list. It is also not being debated if they are or are not a problem. I agree they are a problem, just get them their own list. Otherwise, it sure looks like the woke list is being debated and altered by woke people, the enemy of said list. It is always a bad first step to let an enemy define terms IMO. I suggest let people who want to label nazis, make their nazi list. They can in fact call it exactly that and have a green, yellow and a red.
It's not me who defined the list that way -- it's Ocule, and he's the one who originated the list and is maintaining it. I was quoting his description of the Red list. If you want your own list that is only purely about left-vs-right politics, then you're welcome to make your own. Though I think a lot of politics doesn't accurately fall on a single line of left-vs-right.
I gather that for many posters -- they want to use the lists to see which companies they don't want to buy from, and they don't want to buy from *either* neo-nazis or wokists. So for them, the current list is more functional for them.
Then they can make their own list that caters to their preferences.
Unless the goal here is to infiltrate the woke list and change it to favor a particular "side".
Jeepers, this is all sounding so familiar...
I don't think the list is being changed to favour one side. To quote the very first post from the "woke list" about the Red category, from back last year:
"Entities who are categorized as Red may have engaged in anti-consumer behavior, deceptive business practices, interfered with other creators or taken a strong political stance or alienated large portions of potential customers. This also includes actual racists or sexist entities. Let the buyer beware."
Neo-nazis certainly fit into the "racists" categorisation.
The definition got argued to be that, if you were here then when he made the list. A good number of "concerned" people wanted to be sure all the "bad" people made the list. It became the "too many politics in a game" list from the list of too woke, and is rapidly turning into "someone did something wrong who is associated with a property list". So it has most certainly been changed to favor a side it had zero favors for initially. Because it is still titled a woke list. It really is not that anymore.
Quote from: horsesoldier on March 23, 2022, 12:28:13 PM
I would say the personal views of Heinlein are far worse than these supposed personal views of Baker.
Well, you can fuck right off about that.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 12:54:23 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 12:51:31 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2022, 11:08:53 AM
So I have a question:
What do you DO with this?
Burn his books? Exhume Barker and try him for the crime of stupid ideology? Urinate on his bones?
Thanks to the blather of wokeists, I am indifferent to 'Nazi' accusations. I don't fucking care. I want to know what crime this dead man has committed that we must pummel ourselves for it.
The suggestion that some posters have made is that his games should be added to the Red list, like how Varg Vikernes game currently is. Then these should be treated like any of the other games in the Red list.
I was with that initially, but that is quite specifically a woke list. So I am not so sure nazis belong there. There should simply be a list that goes the other way IMO, from green to red based on how far right the authors go. That list should also be made on another forum, and by people with that concern IMO, leftists.
So are you suggesting libertarians and conservatives don't hate Nazis? I'm not sure everyone is with you on that.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 23, 2022, 09:18:21 PM
Quote from: horsesoldier on March 23, 2022, 12:28:13 PM
I would say the personal views of Heinlein are far worse than these supposed personal views of Baker.
Well, you can fuck right off about that.
Right back at you.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 23, 2022, 09:19:38 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 12:54:23 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 12:51:31 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2022, 11:08:53 AM
So I have a question:
What do you DO with this?
Burn his books? Exhume Barker and try him for the crime of stupid ideology? Urinate on his bones?
Thanks to the blather of wokeists, I am indifferent to 'Nazi' accusations. I don't fucking care. I want to know what crime this dead man has committed that we must pummel ourselves for it.
The suggestion that some posters have made is that his games should be added to the Red list, like how Varg Vikernes game currently is. Then these should be treated like any of the other games in the Red list.
I was with that initially, but that is quite specifically a woke list. So I am not so sure nazis belong there. There should simply be a list that goes the other way IMO, from green to red based on how far right the authors go. That list should also be made on another forum, and by people with that concern IMO, leftists.
So are you suggesting libertarians and conservatives don't hate Nazis? I'm not sure everyone is with you on that.
No. Do you have a head injury?
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:27:52 AM
That is a very good point. Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke. Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.
Oh but they are. Nazis believe exactly the same things about race as the wokists. They just flip which skin colors should be segregated or condemned. Except when it comes to Israel and Jews, where their beliefs match precisely.
Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 01:30:35 PM
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 01:12:10 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 07:39:41 AMIncorrect. There's a link up thread to the Serpent's Walk, and the header of the journal.
The header I see, the link to the novel I do not. Care to point me to it? Is the text of the actual book online, yes?
The same goes for the mags BEYOND the header. What did Barker actually contribute there? Isn't this stuff supposed to be publicly available?
I skimmed the first dozen pages of the thread, and I can't find the link again. It might have been to an archive.org page. If anyone has the link to Serpent's Walk, please post.
Edit: Found it
https://archive.org/details/CalverhallRandolphO.SerpentsWalk/mode/2up
And it doesn't matter what's beyond the header. He's listed as a contributing editor.
Note that under regular circumstances this type of link would not be allowed here. However, because this link is absolutely relevant to this topic, and serves to confirm evidence about Barker, I will allow it only in this specific occasion.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:01:58 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:27:52 AM
That is a very good point. Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke. Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.
Oh but they are. Nazis believe exactly the same things about race as the wokists. They just flip which skin colors should be segregated or condemned. Except when it comes to Israel and Jews, where their beliefs match precisely.
Race, maybe, nationalism, transgender issues, use of violence, etc they have some pretty different beliefs. They are not the same thing, no more than an alligator and a bear are the same animal. Both are dangerous, but present different dangers and in different ways. Two things both being bad do not make them the same thing. It makes them both bad, calling two different bad things the same bad thing is folly.
Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 03:50:54 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 23, 2022, 08:37:40 AMAgreed and seconded .
Pundits rules seem to change on if he knows you or if you are a friend. So Chrine gets a free pass because of " reasons and feels " yet the TF does not because they made money of Barkers works. How very SJW of Pundit.
@ Pundit saying you never planned to ban Tenbones then say he should leave the forum if he does not answer your questions to your utmost satisfaction is the same damn thing.
eh. That at least is understandable reaction. And hate to say it. But there is something in how the foundation has acted that feels... off. Which is why I've never said that they are innocent of wrong. Just that we should not just jump to one negative conclusion without checking the whys of what went down and looking at all the angles and eliminating as many as possible. It undermines Pundits position. And will look exponentially worse if it turns out the foundation sat on the info for valid reasons.
Pointing fingers and snap negative conclusions is what the other side does.
They also do not want anyone actually investigating because sure enough. Things arent quite what they appear. They keep egging Pundit on because they know that if he stops raging and starts examining things rationally that their whole deception will be blown away and he'll come down on them like the wrath of god.
A truth bundled in lies and insinuations. And they couldn't even get the truth right.
I have actually investigated. My conclusions are based on my own investigation.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:53:44 PM
So, if we're going to Cancell Barker after his death, and the games he wrote that have exactly ZERO nazi shit on them...
Shouldn't we also cancell ANY game based on Lovecraft's mythos regardless of who developed them?
I haven't actually said people shouldn't play Tekumel anymore. I'm saying that it was wrong of the Tekumel Foundation to not disclose what they knew, so people could make up their own minds about whether to spend money on products that would benefit the Tekumel Foundation.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:07:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:01:58 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:27:52 AM
That is a very good point. Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke. Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.
Oh but they are. Nazis believe exactly the same things about race as the wokists. They just flip which skin colors should be segregated or condemned. Except when it comes to Israel and Jews, where their beliefs match precisely.
Race, maybe, nationalism, transgender issues, use of violence, etc they have some pretty different beliefs. They are not the same thing, no more than an alligator and a bear are the same animal. Both are dangerous, but present different dangers and in different ways. Two things both being bad do not make them the same thing. It makes them both bad, calling two different bad things the same bad thing is folly.
Their views on Race-based Collectivism are one and the same. And that, for neo-nazis, is the defining core of their ideology.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:12:57 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:07:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:01:58 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:27:52 AM
That is a very good point. Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke. Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.
Oh but they are. Nazis believe exactly the same things about race as the wokists. They just flip which skin colors should be segregated or condemned. Except when it comes to Israel and Jews, where their beliefs match precisely.
Race, maybe, nationalism, transgender issues, use of violence, etc they have some pretty different beliefs. They are not the same thing, no more than an alligator and a bear are the same animal. Both are dangerous, but present different dangers and in different ways. Two things both being bad do not make them the same thing. It makes them both bad, calling two different bad things the same bad thing is folly.
Their views on Race-based Collectivism are one and the same.
No, they are not.
Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 01:30:35 PMI skimmed the first dozen pages of the thread, and I can't find the link again. It might have been to an archive.org page. If anyone has the link to Serpent's Walk, please post.
Edit: Found it
https://archive.org/details/CalverhallRandolphO.SerpentsWalk/mode/2up
Thank you for this! I owe you one.
Yeah, that book looks as bad as one would imagine. I've read a few chapters, and the most damning thing is maybe that it's treating the whole topic of the nazis being the good guys in a rather
casual manner. Like, no big fuzz about the setting's premise, no "spoilation" elements, no "Heavy Metal" edginess, no irony: Just an old-fashioned, badly written, 70s-style paperback sci-fi novel in which the nazis fight for law and order.
Not going to quote the book here, but around page 40, the story gets to what Barker might have considered the core of the tale: The usual '70s whitey hero - though and able, but goal or aim, starts being tutored by "the good guys" - and being educated in "real history", etc. wading through all the usual nazi talking points to the point to which the novel becomes the usual nazi textbook. And, of course, t he protagonist becomes a Memetic Badass through the process, and King of the World - just as if this book had been stuck in some 1965 gas station novel.
Mentioning the "70s" thing so often because it seems to be a theme here. This is not a novel for 1991, even if you strip away the nazi shit. It's formulaic, more than it is anything else; you could write a book like that with every possible topic in mind, and you would just have to change the names of the protagonists, and substitute the nazi background with whatever else you liked.
I'm seriously curious as to how bad this novel might still come to be, but - every line I read in there makes me feel like I should wash my hands.
Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 01:36:10 PMThe TF fb post also confirms his involvement with the journal: "We have done our due diligence to ascertain the facts regarding Serpent's Walk and Professor Barker's affiliation with The Journal of Historical Review and we believe this needs to be recognized as part of Professor Barker's past." (bold mine)
Yeah, thanks, too, for pointing that out. ...It's been a long day, I guess.
---
What a pity, this shit.
I'm a lifelong follower of the Midkemia stories and games. - And, of course, I had some great fun reading the actual Tekumel stuff. I don't think I'm going to do that again.
Wait. Now Raymond Feist and Pug and the Riftwar is involved in this?
Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 03:24:55 PM
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
-- The content and the publication history of the novel, and possible changes to the original manuscript that were made by the publisher. Who knows, for all we know, Barker might have believed he was writing a fantasy version of "Springtime For Hitler". Thing is, we don't know until we get a proper look at the material.
Working through the book I get the increasing impression that either A: they did not have an editor, or B: did not notice how Barker was framing things. The Nazis in the book are the most mild, bordering on non-nazi characters you could imagine. They spend more time complaining about the unfair treatment Germany got and trying not to get zipped by the Izzies than they do any actual Nazi-ing. The main focus is their struggle against the very aggressive Israel forces who in the book have become a major world power or darn close. And do not get me wrong here. They do talk about the Jews in the book too. But at times it is almost as if they are talking about two different people. And so far not in a derogatory manner. Weirdest stuff ever for a pro-nazi book. Even the supremacist stuff is fairly in the background or being spouted by the brits and americans so far as I am seeing. But they are creating a white only nation and removing anyone not white from that area. Mostly peacefully and again in the background so far. Mostly.
I think Barker partnered with the publisher because he had an axe to grind with Israel and gave the publisher what they wanted. But got far more of what he wanted. A statement against the Israel/Pakistan war. And to show up Israel in a negative light. If I recall right hostilities or outright war was still ongoing at the time of the writing and did not end till a year or two after its publication.
None of which excuses what he did even if any of my guesses are right.
Thanks for the short review.
Please tell me you didn't buy the book.
I'm not advocating piracy.
I'm just strongly suggesting not buying that book from that publisher.
Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 03:24:55 PM
Quote from: Rafael on March 23, 2022, 07:20:43 AM
-- The content and the publication history of the novel, and possible changes to the original manuscript that were made by the publisher. Who knows, for all we know, Barker might have believed he was writing a fantasy version of "Springtime For Hitler". Thing is, we don't know until we get a proper look at the material.
Working through the book I get the increasing impression that either A: they did not have an editor, or B: did not notice how Barker was framing things. The Nazis in the book are the most mild, bordering on non-nazi characters you could imagine. They spend more time complaining about the unfair treatment Germany got and trying not to get zipped by the Izzies than they do any actual Nazi-ing. The main focus is their struggle against the very aggressive Israel forces who in the book have become a major world power or darn close. And do not get me wrong here. They do talk about the Jews in the book too. But at times it is almost as if they are talking about two different people. And so far not in a derogatory manner. Weirdest stuff ever for a pro-nazi book. Even the supremacist stuff is fairly in the background or being spouted by the brits and americans so far as I am seeing. But they are creating a white only nation and removing anyone not white from that area. Mostly peacefully and again in the background so far. Mostly.
I think Barker partnered with the publisher because he had an axe to grind with Israel and gave the publisher what they wanted. But got far more of what he wanted. A statement against the Israel/Pakistan war. And to show up Israel in a negative light. If I recall right hostilities or outright war was still ongoing at the time of the writing and did not end till a year or two after its publication.
None of which excuses what he did even if any of my guesses are right.
Sorry, didn't intentionally ignore you - just was really undercafffeinated yesterday. I refuse to spend the time to read the book in its entirety, but what I've read so far matches with your observations.
It reminded me a lot of similar books from other countries in which the writers of the ruling party tried to handwave away (English?) past atrocities like Barker is doing here:
Say, according to Barker, for sure his 21st-century nazis are more removed from WWII crimes and would probably never endanger their intended utopia like their earlier generations. And, of course, (according to Barker) 20th-century-nazis have to be seen within the historical contexts of other "-ists" committing crimes. Horst Wessel is the real nazi, to Barker; Hitler was, too, but probably a bit over-the-top. ...And so on. Standard nazi talking points - reminiscent of some KKK stuff I've read over the years, actually.
The tone of the book is almost that of a modern YA novel - quite probably because that's the intention. The actual plot is not much more "sensational" than, say, the way slavery is treated in Errol Flynn's and Michael Curtiz' "The Charge of the Light Brigade" --- but that's exactly the trap:
Barker's rather mellow nazis, they don't appear to be so bad. This is exemplified by his main character, who bears the name of a classic German writer who wrote a play about racial tensions and intolerance, and appears to struggle with all these issues - before he, of course, comes to find the one true way. Take the names and contexts away and replace them by generic sci-fi, you would probably not find anything unusual there.
I'm pretty convinced now that Barker had a very clear idea of what he was doing; the way the novel is built, the way it gives the reader an initiation into nazi ideology - that's not just a misguided attempt at "Iron Sky, or some writer echoing his zeitgeist a bit too much for modern audiences. This is a nazi writing nazi stuff.
--- In sum, deeply shocking and disheartening.
Quote from: palaeomerus on March 24, 2022, 02:18:32 AM
Wait. Now Raymond Feist and Pug and the Riftwar is involved in this?
Whole 'nother kettle of worms. ;)
The planet on the other side of the Rift was blatantly Tekemel, with the names slightly changed. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth over copyright, but AAUI, Feist and Barker worked something out.
"If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."
-Winston Churchill
Quote from: palaeomerus on March 24, 2022, 02:18:32 AM
Wait. Now Raymond Feist and Pug and the Riftwar is involved in this?
The Tsurani side of the Riftwar is massively taken/borrowed/inspired from Tekumel.
Edit: snaked.
Barker discussing Serpent's Walk - https://fabledlands.blogspot.com/2022/03/was-professor-m-r-barker-nazi.html?fbclid=IwAR171n73ncr7ipyBZWOIclVJ-2AlZrQS48a29aPqp3mA377dfO7Pz37FJmc&m=1
"I do have a novel that is unsold and unwanted by anybody. This is what I call my 'Nazi novel'. I did not show it to the Wollheims both because they don't do this sort of book and also because they are Jewish and would be terribly offended -- and they are nice people. I started out to write a 'near-future' thriller: young mercenary is hired to steal cannisters of germ warfare from an American stockpile in the 2040 A.D. period. This is used by a fearful Israeli government and various cronies to destroy the Soviet Union; the Soviets get in a retaliatory strike with germ warfare of their own, however, and take out many US, British, etc. cities. Out in India, where the young mercenary is employed, the descendants of the Nazi SS and other 'refugees' are quietly biding their time, building up economic resources for a come-back. With the presidency and vice-presidency of the United States open after the deaths of their incumbents, the Secretary of State takes over -- an old, reconstructed racist. He invites the Nazi movement to help in running the US. The mercenary hero, who is not a Nazi, is an employee of the Indian chemical company 'front' for the Nazis and gets into the situation as a sort of military expert for them. The Nazis manage to gain access to a giant computer with independent ideas, and they use this machine to rewrite Mein Kampf using every sales pitch and advertising trick in the book. The hero initially loves and marries an Indian girl, but later falls for a Nazi girl who is helping with publicity. The plot thickens, and various major events occur. The book ends with the Nazis taking over much of Western civilisation, and with our hero being chosen 'Second Führer' and riding into the stadium to the 'Sieg Heils!' of the masses.
"The only people I can imagine enjoying this book would be skinheads and Sir Oswald Mosley. It would probably create as much fuss as Rushdie's Satanic Verses, and could not be published under my own name. Both the author and the publisher would become the target of many rude remarks, letter-bombs, hand grenades, and visits from Mossad. I mentioned this book just to show you that I am not completely dead -- yet. Still alive and working. I don't expect you to want to publish it. Nobody will. I cannot even sell it to the Neo-Nazi presses here; they would not accept the idea of an Indian girl marrying the hero."
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:09:22 PMI have actually investigated. My conclusions are based on my own investigation.
So you have uncovered something that isnt just guesswork that points to the foundation being up to no good?
Quote from: Rafael on March 24, 2022, 01:33:23 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 23, 2022, 01:30:35 PMI skimmed the first dozen pages of the thread, and I can't find the link again. It might have been to an archive.org page. If anyone has the link to Serpent's Walk, please post.
Edit: Found it
https://archive.org/details/CalverhallRandolphO.SerpentsWalk/mode/2up
Thank you for this! I owe you one.
Yeah, that book looks as bad as one would imagine. I've read a few chapters, and the most damning thing is maybe that it's treating the whole topic of the nazis being the good guys in a rather casual manner. Like, no big fuzz about the setting's premise, no "spoilation" elements, no "Heavy Metal" edginess, no irony: Just an old-fashioned, badly written, 70s-style paperback sci-fi novel in which the nazis fight for law and order.
Not going to quote the book here, but around page 40, the story gets to what Barker might have considered the core of the tale: The usual '70s whitey hero - though and able, but goal or aim, starts being tutored by "the good guys" - and being educated in "real history", etc. wading through all the usual nazi talking points to the point to which the novel becomes the usual nazi textbook. And, of course, t he protagonist becomes a Memetic Badass through the process, and King of the World - just as if this book had been stuck in some 1965 gas station novel.
Mentioning the "70s" thing so often because it seems to be a theme here. This is not a novel for 1991, even if you strip away the nazi shit. It's formulaic, more than it is anything else; you could write a book like that with every possible topic in mind, and you would just have to change the names of the protagonists, and substitute the nazi background with whatever else you liked.
I'm seriously curious as to how bad this novel might still come to be, but - every line I read in there makes me feel like I should wash my hands.
I am going through it from the other direction and seeing similar things. The weird toning down of the Nazi elements before and after that big outburst. After that the book more and more focuses on Israel to the point it nearly eclipses the nazi stuff. Theres a subtle tonal shift Im seeing. Theres also more later in the book of the WWII denial scattered through the rest of the book. It gets old rather fast.
That is interesting on Barkers statement.
So I am guessing at some point, after he married? he got mad about the Israel war with its neighbors (fixed my mistake!) and somehow found a publisher congruent to what he wanted to say. And probably retooled the book to focus more on that?
Unfortunately his statement there is open to being read from too many directions and he at least there gives no insight into why.
But it is exactly the sort of question mark on all this I had a feeling was going to be uncovered.
But the books tone sure as heck changed from "a fearful Israel" to "war mongering Israel". It is then entirely possible that it really did start out as some elabourate thumbing if the nose at Nazis that for reasons as yet unknown, turned dark.
If the foundation knew about the books origins and then both failed to mention that in their statements and vilified Barker, then that paints them in a less than cordial light. Unless they were, or are, worried about the anti-Israel connections.
"the Israel/Pakistan war"
That would be a really weird war, if it had ever happened. India fought Pakistan, Israel fought Egypt and other Arab countries.
Quote from: S'mon on March 24, 2022, 02:51:42 PM
"the Israel/Pakistan war"
That would be a really weird war, if it had ever happened. India fought Pakistan, Israel fought Egypt and other Arab countries.
Yeah. My goof there. What I get for reading late and fast. Palestine is whats mentioned at the end before things take an unusual sci-fi turn.
Think would have been better had I said Israel/Everyone else in the vicinity war.
Does any of this read like a joke? No.
QuoteWe'd have preferred peaceful . . . and separate . . . and distant . . . co-existence,
but they never got the message. Now we don't care anymore."
"It's too bad " Wrench began.
"Don't waste your pity!" Lessing snapped. "They wouldn't
waste any on you. Sure, it's sad that innocent people have to suffer,
but it can't be helped. That's reality! That's Nature! You can't save
the dodo, the condors, and the other losers in the battle for survival.
Species-extinction happens over and over, like rain in the summer-
time. Forget ethics and morality and 'do-unto-others.' The Izzies
said 'never again!' about the 'Holocaust,' but then they turned
around and did to the Palestinians everything they claimed the
Germans had done to them! They called it 'self-defense': war under
the pretext of peace, oppression in the name of justice and stability!
The Arabs were weak and went under, but we're a different story.
We're going to make it, no matter who gets in our way."
Quote from: Omega on March 24, 2022, 02:24:10 PMI am going through it from the other direction and seeing similar things. The weird toning down of the Nazi elements before and after that big outburst. After that the book more and more focuses on Israel to the point it nearly eclipses the nazi stuff. Theres a subtle tonal shift Im seeing. Theres also more later in the book of the WWII denial scattered through the rest of the book. It gets old rather fast.
I'm not American, so I might be missing some nuance/reference to "American nazi" lore or similar stuff, but I agree with you that it almost seemed like Barker was a "disinterested" nazi apologist: He doesn't seem to know German culture all too well, and his supposed historical talking points seem almost like he's going down a list and checking them off one by one. Compared to other academic examples of nazi ideology, racism, or anti-Semitism, he's remarkably unsophisticated for a man of his supposed background.
So, I can see how his focus might not have been on "nazi-ism", but on "Anti-Israelism", something he also lets shine through in the letter quoted by Morris. I do not think one should read too much into this distinction, though: The man wrote a 450-page unironic fictional treatise on how the future is better with laser-wielding tech-nazis. He presumably actively sought out the publisher of "The Turner Diaries". And afterwards, he apparently became the face of a Holocaust-denying publication. There seems little room for nuance there.
Sure Barker deserves the right for due process (English?), just like anyone else. But unless there are statements from him personally that directly and clearly disown "The Serpent's Walk" and his other actions in some way, the case lamentably seems pretty clear here.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:20:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:12:57 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:07:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:01:58 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:27:52 AM
That is a very good point. Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke. Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.
Oh but they are. Nazis believe exactly the same things about race as the wokists. They just flip which skin colors should be segregated or condemned. Except when it comes to Israel and Jews, where their beliefs match precisely.
Race, maybe, nationalism, transgender issues, use of violence, etc they have some pretty different beliefs. They are not the same thing, no more than an alligator and a bear are the same animal. Both are dangerous, but present different dangers and in different ways. Two things both being bad do not make them the same thing. It makes them both bad, calling two different bad things the same bad thing is folly.
Their views on Race-based Collectivism are one and the same.
No, they are not.
They absolutely are:
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 25, 2022, 03:20:51 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:20:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:12:57 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:07:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:01:58 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:27:52 AM
That is a very good point. Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke. Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.
Oh but they are. Nazis believe exactly the same things about race as the wokists. They just flip which skin colors should be segregated or condemned. Except when it comes to Israel and Jews, where their beliefs match precisely.
Race, maybe, nationalism, transgender issues, use of violence, etc they have some pretty different beliefs. They are not the same thing, no more than an alligator and a bear are the same animal. Both are dangerous, but present different dangers and in different ways. Two things both being bad do not make them the same thing. It makes them both bad, calling two different bad things the same bad thing is folly.
Their views on Race-based Collectivism are one and the same.
No, they are not.
They absolutely are:
We will just have to agree to disagree.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 25, 2022, 03:27:25 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 25, 2022, 03:20:51 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:20:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:12:57 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:07:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:01:58 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:27:52 AM
That is a very good point. Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke. Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.
Oh but they are. Nazis believe exactly the same things about race as the wokists. They just flip which skin colors should be segregated or condemned. Except when it comes to Israel and Jews, where their beliefs match precisely.
Race, maybe, nationalism, transgender issues, use of violence, etc they have some pretty different beliefs. They are not the same thing, no more than an alligator and a bear are the same animal. Both are dangerous, but present different dangers and in different ways. Two things both being bad do not make them the same thing. It makes them both bad, calling two different bad things the same bad thing is folly.
Their views on Race-based Collectivism are one and the same.
No, they are not.
They absolutely are:
We will just have to agree to disagree.
Only because you're incapable of effective rebuttal.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 25, 2022, 05:10:34 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 25, 2022, 03:27:25 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 25, 2022, 03:20:51 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:20:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:12:57 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:07:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:01:58 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:27:52 AM
That is a very good point. Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke. Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.
Oh but they are. Nazis believe exactly the same things about race as the wokists. They just flip which skin colors should be segregated or condemned. Except when it comes to Israel and Jews, where their beliefs match precisely.
Race, maybe, nationalism, transgender issues, use of violence, etc they have some pretty different beliefs. They are not the same thing, no more than an alligator and a bear are the same animal. Both are dangerous, but present different dangers and in different ways. Two things both being bad do not make them the same thing. It makes them both bad, calling two different bad things the same bad thing is folly.
Their views on Race-based Collectivism are one and the same.
No, they are not.
They absolutely are:
We will just have to agree to disagree.
Only because you're incapable of effective rebuttal.
No, because you are going to equate a multi racial movement to a mono racial movement no matter what I say. You see the worst bad guys in Nazis (and rightfully so) but you label the woke as the same thing. It is a simple way to look at things. A bit of cursory reading about nazis, and it is pretty clear they are not multi racial, not by design. Woke ideology is, it has to be to gain footing. Now could it morph later (it is more social marxism, and does have someone to "blame" but all strong arm political movements do).
I simply prefer to not spend all day arguing over how there are some clear differences in racial views and policies among the woke and nazis. I also know, no one really changes their minds in an argument. That takes time, reading, and close at hand experience.
Quote from: Rafael on March 25, 2022, 01:44:57 AM
I'm not American, so I might be missing some nuance/reference to "American nazi" lore or similar stuff, but I agree with you that it almost seemed like Barker was a "disinterested" nazi apologist: He doesn't seem to know German culture all too well, and his supposed historical talking points seem almost like he's going down a list and checking them off one by one. Compared to other academic examples of nazi ideology, racism, or anti-Semitism, he's remarkably unsophisticated for a man of his supposed background.
So, I can see how his focus might not have been on "nazi-ism", but on "Anti-Israelism", something he also lets shine through in the letter quoted by Morris. I do not think one should read too much into this distinction, though: The man wrote a 450-page unironic fictional treatise on how the future is better with laser-wielding tech-nazis. He presumably actively sought out the publisher of "The Turner Diaries". And afterwards, he apparently became the face of a Holocaust-denying publication. There seems little room for nuance there.
Sure Barker deserves the right for due process (English?), just like anyone else. But unless there are statements from him personally that directly and clearly disown "The Serpent's Walk" and his other actions in some way, the case lamentably seems pretty clear here.
Guess what. There kinda is. Turns out Barker may actually have written the book as some sort of subtly jab at Nazis, neo-nazis and supremacists. His father was one and from all accounts he hated it. And one of his close friends said that elabourate pranks was something he did.
Also heres the kicker. In Barkers letter to a publisher he states he sent the book off to all the neo-nazi publishers and none accepted it.
But here the book is published?
But.
It is not quite the book Barker describes.
So here is a big what if for you. What if Vanguard altered and published the book somehow without him knowing? Which might be the case depending on how obscure the book was in publication. Which was likely pretty obscure.
If thats the case then the foundation must have known if they did the research they claim... and threw Barker under the bus to virtue signal.
Thats alot of ifs. But it is more in line with the Barker people close to him know. If so then I owe Dee an apology.
Trying to get your book published by neo-Nazis, and finally succeeding, is not exonerating at any level. I cannot formulate any acceptable motivation for doing so. "To prank someone" is not a justifiable reason to publish with Nazis.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 26, 2022, 01:41:58 AM
Trying to get your book published by neo-Nazis, and finally succeeding, is not exonerating at any level. I cannot formulate any acceptable motivation for doing so. "To prank someone" is not a justifiable reason to publish with Nazis.
Why not? Say I write a novel that is an elaborate satire of their beliefs, but it's sort of played straight. You have to really pay attention to get it. Then for further shits and giggles I decide that having a neo-nazi publisher run it would double the amount of hee-haws I get out of it because I've gotten them to pay me for taking a piss on them.
Why would that be unacceptable? Unless you're thinking along the lines of the old lefty canard that "if there's six people at a table and one is a nazi there are six nazis at the table".
I'm not saying that's what happened here, I don't know but it now seems at least in the realm of plausibility.
Quote from: Arkansan on March 26, 2022, 02:52:02 AM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 26, 2022, 01:41:58 AM
Trying to get your book published by neo-Nazis, and finally succeeding, is not exonerating at any level. I cannot formulate any acceptable motivation for doing so. "To prank someone" is not a justifiable reason to publish with Nazis.
Why not? Say I write a novel that is an elaborate satire of their beliefs, but it's sort of played straight. You have to really pay attention to get it. Then for further shits and giggles I decide that having a neo-nazi publisher run it would double the amount of hee-haws I get out of it because I've gotten them to pay me for taking a piss on them.
Why would that be unacceptable? Unless you're thinking along the lines of the old lefty canard that "if there's six people at a table and one is a nazi there are six nazis at the table".
I'm not saying that's what happened here, I don't know but it now seems at least in the realm of plausibility.
Apart from this being a fantasy scenario that seems to have nothing concrete behind it, writing a subtle takedown of Nazi ideology (which, going by what people who've looked at the book have said doesn't seem to be the case) isn't taking money from the publisher. They may pay you, but others will pay them more for the book. A publisher is a business, they're trying to make a profit. So as long as the book does the business the publisher thinks it will, you haven't taken money from a Neo-Nazi publisher, you have made them money.
Quote from: Blankman on March 26, 2022, 03:07:04 AM
Quote from: Arkansan on March 26, 2022, 02:52:02 AM
Quote from: pawsplay on March 26, 2022, 01:41:58 AM
Trying to get your book published by neo-Nazis, and finally succeeding, is not exonerating at any level. I cannot formulate any acceptable motivation for doing so. "To prank someone" is not a justifiable reason to publish with Nazis.
Why not? Say I write a novel that is an elaborate satire of their beliefs, but it's sort of played straight. You have to really pay attention to get it. Then for further shits and giggles I decide that having a neo-nazi publisher run it would double the amount of hee-haws I get out of it because I've gotten them to pay me for taking a piss on them.
Why would that be unacceptable? Unless you're thinking along the lines of the old lefty canard that "if there's six people at a table and one is a nazi there are six nazis at the table".
I'm not saying that's what happened here, I don't know but it now seems at least in the realm of plausibility.
Apart from this being a fantasy scenario that seems to have nothing concrete behind it, writing a subtle takedown of Nazi ideology (which, going by what people who've looked at the book have said doesn't seem to be the case) isn't taking money from the publisher. They may pay you, but others will pay them more for the book. A publisher is a business, they're trying to make a profit. So as long as the book does the business the publisher thinks it will, you haven't taken money from a Neo-Nazi publisher, you have made them money.
Oh I wasn't saying that's what happened here I was just entertaining a tangentially related hypothetical. I suppose I hadn't considered that they likely wouldn't publish something unless they were reasonably sure it would turn over some cash. Which in that case I can see the argument that you've put money in their pocket.
From the way Barker talks. I dont think he expected it to be accepted. Sounds almost like he sent it off just to vex them. Theyd get x-far in and all of a sudden see all this stuff that they wouldnt like.
But if my guess is right then Vanguard apparently did use the book and Barker never knew. I wonder though how exactly he sent the book out for submission as he was using a fake name. How was he going to get payed? Did he use a fake address and account. He'd have never been able to cash a check signed to someone else? Or did he never expect to get payed? Maybe he did not think anyone would take the submission and alter it?
Which is more likely?
A: Barker, who was known to hate his neo-nazi relatives and these types in general, writes a book to somehow tweak their noses and fuck with them?
B: Barker was a neo-nazi and did it for the evulz? And somehow hid it from everyone?
Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2022, 04:28:59 AM
From the way Barker talks. I dont think he expected it to be accepted. Sounds almost like he sent it off just to vex them. Theyd get x-far in and all of a sudden see all this stuff that they wouldnt like.
But if my guess is right then Vanguard apparently did use the book and Barker never knew. I wonder though how exactly he sent the book out for submission as he was using a fake name. How was he going to get payed? Did he use a fake address and account. He'd have never been able to cash a check signed to someone else? Or did he never expect to get payed? Maybe he did not think anyone would take the submission and alter it?
Which is more likely?
A: Barker, who was known to hate his neo-nazi relatives and these types in general, writes a book to somehow tweak their noses and fuck with them?
B: Barker was a neo-nazi and did it for the evulz? And somehow hid it from everyone?
What? Do you think this is the first time in history that an author publishes something under a pseudonym? You know that any book written by "Richard Bachman" was actually written by Stephen King, right?
Quote from: Omega on March 25, 2022, 08:08:34 PMSo here is a big what if for you. What if Vanguard altered and published the book somehow without him knowing? Which might be the case depending on how obscure the book was in publication. Which was likely pretty obscure.
If thats the case then the foundation must have known if they did the research they claim... and threw Barker under the bus to virtue signal.
Thats alot of ifs. But it is more in line with the Barker people close to him know. If so then I owe Dee an apology.
As you say, probably not entirely implausible, but apparently quite improbable based on the evidence that has been presented so far.
If we get more context, maybe there's a saving grace for Barker somewhere in there.
Personally, I would be rather surprised, though, if that really still happened: What little I've seen of the people from Barker's circle in this context just doesn't seem like they have much to add to the issue. (Except maybe few extra semantics, or accounts of their personal experience with him.) Maybe they come up with some more polished statements, some time soon, or maybe they still can present a few pieces of documentation that exonerate Barker. - Now, nothing so far suggests that we may consequently expect that to happen: Whatever Barker's personal relationship with naziism, he still did do those things.
Like, maybe we still get to say, "he wasn't a
total piece of shit" - but that doesn't change that the overall picture looks like it will remain extraordinarily negative.
Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2022, 04:28:59 AM
From the way Barker talks. I dont think he expected it to be accepted. Sounds almost like he sent it off just to vex them. Theyd get x-far in and all of a sudden see all this stuff that they wouldnt like.
But if my guess is right then Vanguard apparently did use the book and Barker never knew. I wonder though how exactly he sent the book out for submission as he was using a fake name. How was he going to get payed? Did he use a fake address and account. He'd have never been able to cash a check signed to someone else? Or did he never expect to get payed? Maybe he did not think anyone would take the submission and alter it?
Which is more likely?
A: Barker, who was known to hate his neo-nazi relatives and these types in general, writes a book to somehow tweak their noses and fuck with them?
B: Barker was a neo-nazi and did it for the evulz? And somehow hid it from everyone?
Chrine found the photocopy of the payment check, as well as proof copies.
Quote from: Blankman on March 26, 2022, 04:32:30 AM
What? Do you think this is the first time in history that an author publishes something under a pseudonym? You know that any book written by "Richard Bachman" was actually written by Stephen King, right?
You are right. I was more thinking of the steps required as noted above. And the possibility Barker didnt really expect the book to be accepted. Unless more correspondence is unearthed. It is all just guesswork. But you are right and thinking on it I can see where if, a big if, Barker was really focused on this gag then he'd go through all the steps needed. Considering that he went to all the trouble to write a freaking novel as a joke. Yeah. That makes sense now.
Well as much sense as any of this makes. But would not be the first time someones gone to elabourate lengths to get back at some person or group. Michael Crichton wrote Eaters of the Dead because he got into an argument at a lecture with a friend who declared that Beowulf was boring. Ben Bova and Alan Dean Foster have as well. Probably many more Im not aware of or have forgotten.
Quote from: Rafael on March 26, 2022, 04:46:47 AM
As you say, probably not entirely implausible, but apparently quite improbable based on the evidence that has been presented so far.
If we get more context, maybe there's a saving grace for Barker somewhere in there.
Just his one letter casts doubt on his being a nazi and if it had been more known Barker was anti-fascist not pro-fascist then this whole chain of argument would have gone totally differently. Chirine should have known this, so probably should the foundation. Which might have been why they sat on the manuscript. But then the foundation opted to virtue signal rather than speak out? Why?
No matter what angle you approach this from at some point things go weird.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 25, 2022, 06:02:21 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 25, 2022, 05:10:34 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 25, 2022, 03:27:25 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 25, 2022, 03:20:51 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:20:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:12:57 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:07:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:01:58 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:27:52 AM
That is a very good point. Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke. Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.
Oh but they are. Nazis believe exactly the same things about race as the wokists. They just flip which skin colors should be segregated or condemned. Except when it comes to Israel and Jews, where their beliefs match precisely.
Race, maybe, nationalism, transgender issues, use of violence, etc they have some pretty different beliefs. They are not the same thing, no more than an alligator and a bear are the same animal. Both are dangerous, but present different dangers and in different ways. Two things both being bad do not make them the same thing. It makes them both bad, calling two different bad things the same bad thing is folly.
Their views on Race-based Collectivism are one and the same.
No, they are not.
They absolutely are:
We will just have to agree to disagree.
Only because you're incapable of effective rebuttal.
No, because you are going to equate a multi racial movement to a mono racial movement no matter what I say. You see the worst bad guys in Nazis (and rightfully so) but you label the woke as the same thing. It is a simple way to look at things. A bit of cursory reading about nazis, and it is pretty clear they are not multi racial, not by design. Woke ideology is, it has to be to gain footing. Now could it morph later (it is more social marxism, and does have someone to "blame" but all strong arm political movements do).
I simply prefer to not spend all day arguing over how there are some clear differences in racial views and policies among the woke and nazis. I also know, no one really changes their minds in an argument. That takes time, reading, and close at hand experience.
So your entire argument is that Nazis aren't wokists because they're more exclusive? So what? All their ideological points otherwise match.
Yes, Nazis will claim "wokeists are nothing like us because they have various races in their movement, including white race-traitors".
Wokists will claim "Nazis are nothing like us because they're exclusively white, give or take a couple of PoC race-traitors".
The only people who care about that exact same type of argument are CRT people and Nazis.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 26, 2022, 05:14:23 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 25, 2022, 06:02:21 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 25, 2022, 05:10:34 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 25, 2022, 03:27:25 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 25, 2022, 03:20:51 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:20:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:12:57 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:07:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:01:58 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:27:52 AM
That is a very good point. Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke. Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.
Oh but they are. Nazis believe exactly the same things about race as the wokists. They just flip which skin colors should be segregated or condemned. Except when it comes to Israel and Jews, where their beliefs match precisely.
Race, maybe, nationalism, transgender issues, use of violence, etc they have some pretty different beliefs. They are not the same thing, no more than an alligator and a bear are the same animal. Both are dangerous, but present different dangers and in different ways. Two things both being bad do not make them the same thing. It makes them both bad, calling two different bad things the same bad thing is folly.
Their views on Race-based Collectivism are one and the same.
No, they are not.
They absolutely are:
We will just have to agree to disagree.
Only because you're incapable of effective rebuttal.
No, because you are going to equate a multi racial movement to a mono racial movement no matter what I say. You see the worst bad guys in Nazis (and rightfully so) but you label the woke as the same thing. It is a simple way to look at things. A bit of cursory reading about nazis, and it is pretty clear they are not multi racial, not by design. Woke ideology is, it has to be to gain footing. Now could it morph later (it is more social marxism, and does have someone to "blame" but all strong arm political movements do).
I simply prefer to not spend all day arguing over how there are some clear differences in racial views and policies among the woke and nazis. I also know, no one really changes their minds in an argument. That takes time, reading, and close at hand experience.
So your entire argument is that Nazis aren't wokists because they're more exclusive? So what? All their ideological points otherwise match.
Yes, Nazis will claim "wokeists are nothing like us because they have various races in their movement, including white race-traitors".
Wokists will claim "Nazis are nothing like us because they're exclusively white, give or take a couple of PoC race-traitors".
The only people who care about that exact same type of argument are CRT people and Nazis.
I made no argument. I made a point about not seeking an argument. You then make a point I must be a nazi or woke for pointing out a basic difference between the two. You miss where I am taking a pass on an argument? Or is it not within you to just let something lie? Because it certainly looks as if you are positioning this to say if I do not agree with you I must be Nazi or woke.
Greetings!
Geesus, this argument is all kinds of mean-spirited and arrogant stupid. Do Wokists and Nazis share some striking similarities in their attitudes? Yes, yes they do. However, Nazis and Wokists have some large, and distinctive differences that make them not the same.
If you agree, great! If you *don't* agree, great!
Trying to INSIST that someone else see precisely and agree entirely with one perspective or the other is just dumb.
It is not some kind of character evaluation whether you can see the distinct differences or whether you can't. It just is.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 10:36:48 AM
I do not see how it can not just boil down to it goes on the red list.
Ditto.
Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2022, 04:28:59 AM
Which is more likely?
A: Barker, who was known to hate his neo-nazi relatives and these types in general, writes a book to somehow tweak their noses and fuck with them?
B: Barker was a neo-nazi and did it for the evulz? And somehow hid it from everyone?
Which is more likely?
A: Someone writes an entire novel as some kind of mild joke, and publishes it with a Neo-Nazi book publisher for the luz? Like really sticking it to the Neo-Nazis by spending months of his authorial life writing a book, then sending it off to Nazis who sell it for money.
B: Barker doesn't see a problem with writing Nazi fiction with the SS as heroes, and so does exactly that?
The answer is... who cares? In both of those scenarios, Barker is a piece of dogshit.
Quote from: pawsplay on March 27, 2022, 05:41:14 AM
Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2022, 04:28:59 AM
Which is more likely?
A: Barker, who was known to hate his neo-nazi relatives and these types in general, writes a book to somehow tweak their noses and fuck with them?
B: Barker was a neo-nazi and did it for the evulz? And somehow hid it from everyone?
Which is more likely?
A: Someone writes an entire novel as some kind of mild joke, and publishes it with a Neo-Nazi book publisher for the luz? Like really sticking it to the Neo-Nazis by spending months of his authorial life writing a book, then sending it off to Nazis who sell it for money.
B: Barker doesn't see a problem with writing Nazi fiction with the SS as heroes, and so does exactly that?
The answer is... who cares? In both of those scenarios, Barker is a piece of dogshit.
So, by this logic EVERY single game that uses an IP made by some EVIL person as it's basis belongs in the red list even if said EVIL person has been dead for how many years.
Meaning ALL of the games inspired by HPL Mythos... And the list will certainly grow.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 02:23:24 PM
So, by this logic EVERY single game that uses an IP made by some EVIL person as it's basis belongs in the red list even if said EVIL person has been dead for how many years.
Meaning ALL of the games inspired by HPL Mythos... And the list will certainly grow.
That is the whole point.
Lie. Get stuff removed or censored enough it might as well be. Further limit peoples access to only those things the cult approves.
Tell the lies enough and it becomes an uphill battle to de-program anyone. Look at what was done to Gygax back in the prior iteration. I still occasionally run into people who spit on Gary because they believe he was the one sending lawyers after everyone. And refuse to accept that Gary was long gone from TSR by then.
Difference was Gary was still alive and could defend himself.
Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2022, 03:50:48 PMJust his one letter casts doubt on his being a nazi
The letter alone is not enough, though. Mind to who Barker is speaking to here, and what his actual proven actions beyond this letter were. - He never again worked with any "name" publisher or otherwise company after 1991; at the same time, for all intents and purposes, he became more embroiled with the Holocaust-denying crowd. That he shows basic human empathy for people he's already acquainted with, or that he is self-conscious enough to understand that his material might "not be for everyone" (to put things mildly) does not necessarily indicate he's being apologetic about it.
QuoteBarker was anti-fascist not pro-fascist
How do we know this?
QuoteNo matter what angle you approach this from at some point things go weird.
Definitely. First, there's the same age-old question as to why people like the different parties associated with Tekumel, the Gygax IPs, or with other oldschool properties don't simply hire PR folks to do this kind of stuff for them. Second, there's the question what the people involved with Tekumel have actually been doing for the last decade-or-so, as their lack of preparation and strategy has once more become evident with regards to the present situation.
Now, I'm not going to speculate as to why this is so; now, my impression is that we're talking about elderly citizens here that do their work
pro bono, and that don't necessarily understand modern possibilities - or the shark tank that is the RPG scene. So, I'm not going to attribute to malice what could be explained by a simple lack of familiarity.
Quote from: Omega on March 27, 2022, 03:49:32 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 02:23:24 PM
So, by this logic EVERY single game that uses an IP made by some EVIL person as it's basis belongs in the red list even if said EVIL person has been dead for how many years.
Meaning ALL of the games inspired by HPL Mythos... And the list will certainly grow.
That is the whole point.
Lie. Get stuff removed or censored enough it might as well be. Further limit peoples access to only those things the cult approves.
Tell the lies enough and it becomes an uphill battle to de-program anyone. Look at what was done to Gygax back in the prior iteration. I still occasionally run into people who spit on Gary because they believe he was the one sending lawyers after everyone. And refuse to accept that Gary was long gone from TSR by then.
Difference was Gary was still alive and could defend himself.
Exactly, very Fahrenheit 451. The government (or cult) doesn't need to ban or burn books the people do it willingly.
I mean, if the game had the ideology in it I wouldn't buy it, but then again it would probably be ALREADY in the red list and no one woul argue for removing it from there.
If the author was still alive and benefiting from the game I wouldn't buy it because even if it doesn't have the ideology in it it's me giving money to people that hate me.
So let's all agree that Baker WAS a neo-nazi, so what? Why does that mather in an RPG forum?
The publishers of the game or some organization that benefits from his REALLY known works knew and didn't say anything...
Because we all know that saying something wouldn't have gotten them cancelled and deplatformed by the usual suspects...
Fuck that noise.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 03:56:55 PM
So let's all agree that Baker WAS a neo-nazi, so what? Why does that mather in an RPG forum?
The publishers of the game or some organization that benefits from his REALLY known works knew and didn't say anything...
Because we all know that saying something wouldn't have gotten them cancelled and deplatformed by the usual suspects...
And that would be bad - how exactly? Because it sure looks like Barker did those things, and that he held those beliefs, back in his day.
Can't the Tekumel Foundation, if the intention is
really to uphold the memory of their friend, do so in a different way than they have chosen until now? Wouldn't it be perfectly appropriate out to tell of Barker's life and considerable influence on the RPG scene of his day
without trying to act as an active game publisher or brand ambassador for "Tekumel"?
...But noone has been interested in that, am I right? ;)
Quote from: Rafael on March 27, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 03:56:55 PM
So let's all agree that Baker WAS a neo-nazi, so what? Why does that mather in an RPG forum?
The publishers of the game or some organization that benefits from his REALLY known works knew and didn't say anything...
Because we all know that saying something wouldn't have gotten them cancelled and deplatformed by the usual suspects...
And that would be bad - how exactly? Because it sure looks like Barker did those things, and that he held those beliefs, back in his day.
Can't the Tekumel Foundation, if the intention is really to uphold the memory of their friend, do so in a different way than they have chosen until now? Wouldn't it be perfectly appropriate out to tell of Barker's life and considerable influence on the RPG scene of his day without trying to act as an active game publisher or brand ambassador for "Tekumel"?
...But noone has been interested in that, am I right? ;)
Cancellation by proxy isn't bad...
If you trully believe that you're a monster.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 04:57:09 PM
Quote from: Rafael on March 27, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 03:56:55 PM
So let's all agree that Baker WAS a neo-nazi, so what? Why does that mather in an RPG forum?
The publishers of the game or some organization that benefits from his REALLY known works knew and didn't say anything...
Because we all know that saying something wouldn't have gotten them cancelled and deplatformed by the usual suspects...
And that would be bad - how exactly? Because it sure looks like Barker did those things, and that he held those beliefs, back in his day.
Can't the Tekumel Foundation, if the intention is really to uphold the memory of their friend, do so in a different way than they have chosen until now? Wouldn't it be perfectly appropriate out to tell of Barker's life and considerable influence on the RPG scene of his day without trying to act as an active game publisher or brand ambassador for "Tekumel"?
...But noone has been interested in that, am I right? ;)
Cancellation by proxy isn't bad...
If you trully believe that you're a monster.
Did you learn to read at the Derek Zoolander Center?
Quote from: Rafael on March 27, 2022, 05:12:56 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 04:57:09 PM
Quote from: Rafael on March 27, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 03:56:55 PM
So let's all agree that Baker WAS a neo-nazi, so what? Why does that mather in an RPG forum?
The publishers of the game or some organization that benefits from his REALLY known works knew and didn't say anything...
Because we all know that saying something wouldn't have gotten them cancelled and deplatformed by the usual suspects...
And that would be bad - how exactly? Because it sure looks like Barker did those things, and that he held those beliefs, back in his day.
Can't the Tekumel Foundation, if the intention is really to uphold the memory of their friend, do so in a different way than they have chosen until now? Wouldn't it be perfectly appropriate out to tell of Barker's life and considerable influence on the RPG scene of his day without trying to act as an active game publisher or brand ambassador for "Tekumel"?
...But noone has been interested in that, am I right? ;)
Cancellation by proxy isn't bad...
If you trully believe that you're a monster.
Did you learn to read at the Derek Zoolander Center?
Said the kettle.
What part of they would have been tarred, feathered and run out of town by no wrong doing of their own you didn't understand?
Furthermore, can you point to ANY neo-nazi ideology on Tekumel?
Why is it relevan for the game that Barker was one? Assuming he was and that he never changed since on Tekumel you don't find that shit.
So, why is it relevant for the fundation? Why did they need to cut their own necks so you cultists coluld call them neo-nazis by proxy?
Tell me who said this and how old is it: "If 11 people sit at a table to eat and one is a nazi now you have 11 nazis"
And then you idiots wonder why the fundation didn't say shit assuming they knew.
Like I said, if you believe in cancellation by proxy you're a monster.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 05:20:27 PM
Quote from: Rafael on March 27, 2022, 05:12:56 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 04:57:09 PM
Quote from: Rafael on March 27, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 03:56:55 PM
So let's all agree that Baker WAS a neo-nazi, so what? Why does that mather in an RPG forum?
The publishers of the game or some organization that benefits from his REALLY known works knew and didn't say anything...
Because we all know that saying something wouldn't have gotten them cancelled and deplatformed by the usual suspects...
And that would be bad - how exactly? Because it sure looks like Barker did those things, and that he held those beliefs, back in his day.
Can't the Tekumel Foundation, if the intention is really to uphold the memory of their friend, do so in a different way than they have chosen until now? Wouldn't it be perfectly appropriate out to tell of Barker's life and considerable influence on the RPG scene of his day without trying to act as an active game publisher or brand ambassador for "Tekumel"?
...But noone has been interested in that, am I right? ;)
Cancellation by proxy isn't bad...
If you trully believe that you're a monster.
Did you learn to read at the Derek Zoolander Center?
Said the kettle.
What part of they would have been tarred, feathered and run out of town by no wrong doing of their own you didn't understand?
Furthermore, can you point to ANY neo-nazi ideology on Tekumel?
Why is it relevan for the game that Barker was one? Assuming he was and that he never changed since on Tekumel you don't find that shit.
So, why is it relevant for the fundation? Why did they need to cut their own necks so you cultists coluld call them neo-nazis by proxy?
Tell me who said this and how old is it: "If 11 people sit at a table to eat and one is a nazi now you have 11 nazis"
And then you idiots wonder why the fundation didn't say shit assuming they knew.
Like I said, if you believe in cancellation by proxy you're a monster.
It's too boring to be spending time on your manufactured arguments when we could also be talking about the real ones.
Learn to trust the process, booger.
Quote from: Rafael on March 27, 2022, 05:30:46 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 05:20:27 PM
Quote from: Rafael on March 27, 2022, 05:12:56 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 04:57:09 PM
Quote from: Rafael on March 27, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 03:56:55 PM
So let's all agree that Baker WAS a neo-nazi, so what? Why does that mather in an RPG forum?
The publishers of the game or some organization that benefits from his REALLY known works knew and didn't say anything...
Because we all know that saying something wouldn't have gotten them cancelled and deplatformed by the usual suspects...
And that would be bad - how exactly? Because it sure looks like Barker did those things, and that he held those beliefs, back in his day.
Can't the Tekumel Foundation, if the intention is really to uphold the memory of their friend, do so in a different way than they have chosen until now? Wouldn't it be perfectly appropriate out to tell of Barker's life and considerable influence on the RPG scene of his day without trying to act as an active game publisher or brand ambassador for "Tekumel"?
...But noone has been interested in that, am I right? ;)
Cancellation by proxy isn't bad...
If you trully believe that you're a monster.
Did you learn to read at the Derek Zoolander Center?
Said the kettle.
What part of they would have been tarred, feathered and run out of town by no wrong doing of their own you didn't understand?
Furthermore, can you point to ANY neo-nazi ideology on Tekumel?
Why is it relevan for the game that Barker was one? Assuming he was and that he never changed since on Tekumel you don't find that shit.
So, why is it relevant for the fundation? Why did they need to cut their own necks so you cultists coluld call them neo-nazis by proxy?
Tell me who said this and how old is it: "If 11 people sit at a table to eat and one is a nazi now you have 11 nazis"
And then you idiots wonder why the fundation didn't say shit assuming they knew.
Like I said, if you believe in cancellation by proxy you're a monster.
It's too boring to be spending time on your manufactured arguments when we could also be talking about the real ones.
Learn to trust the process, booger.
Meaning you have no argument, I don't trust you, because you haven't earned it, therefore what you call "real arguments" needs to be examined before accepting your claims.
Is that clear and concise enough for your smoothbrain?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 05:35:27 PM
Meaning you have no argument, I don't trust you, because you haven't earned it, therefore what you call "real arguments" needs to be examined before accepting your claims.
Is that clear and concise enough for your smoothbrain?
Well, you evidently don't trust spelling and punctuation, either.
Now, so I don't go and take my nap on a totally destructive note - the argument remains what you yourself initially postulated:
QuoteSo let's all agree that Baker WAS a neo-nazi, so what? Why does that mather in an RPG forum?
To which I responded:
QuoteCan't the Tekumel Foundation, if the intention is really to uphold the memory of their friend, do so in a different way than they have chosen until now?
So, given that the
reality of the situation is that Barker is quite probably going to be canceled, and canceled HARD, what are the next steps for the foundation - beyond bitching, moaning, and a possible
mea culpa? Where do they go from here, in your opinion?
Quote from: Rafael on March 27, 2022, 06:23:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 05:35:27 PM
Meaning you have no argument, I don't trust you, because you haven't earned it, therefore what you call "real arguments" needs to be examined before accepting your claims.
Is that clear and concise enough for your smoothbrain?
Well, you evidently don't trust spelling and punctuation, either.
Now, so I don't go and take my nap on a totally destructive note - the argument remains what you yourself initially postulated:
QuoteSo let's all agree that Baker WAS a neo-nazi, so what? Why does that mather in an RPG forum?
To which I responded:
QuoteCan't the Tekumel Foundation, if the intention is really to uphold the memory of their friend, do so in a different way than they have chosen until now?
So, given that the reality of the situation is that Barker is quite probably going to be canceled, and canceled HARD, what are the next steps for the foundation - beyond bitching, moaning, and a possible mea culpa? Where do they go from here, in your opinion?
English isn't my first language, and when they updated the forum it stoped correcting my spelling. As if being a grammar nazi was an argument.
Why would they need to do/say anything? What bearing does it have on the game? Can anyone point to exactly where in Tekumel is the nazi ideology?
I honestly don't give a fuck about Barker being canceled after death, it's not like it will hurt him, if his family thinks this will hurt them they need to do whatever they think they need to do.
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:
Was Barker a nazi?
Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?
So, lets agree, doesn't mean I am convinced one way or the other, but even IF HE WAS... What the fuck does that matter for the game/hobby?
If the fundation asked me I would tell them to tell all the SJW mob to go eat a bag of dicks, the game has zero nazi ideology on it, from reading it it would seem Barker stoped being one if he ever was one and Barker is dead and doesn't benefit from the sales of the game.
Quote from: Omega on March 24, 2022, 02:14:43 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:09:22 PMI have actually investigated. My conclusions are based on my own investigation.
So you have uncovered something that isnt just guesswork that points to the foundation being up to no good?
I have networks of people that talk to me, and some of that is said in confidence, or they ask me to wait (for various reasons) before talking more about it. I can tell you, and you'll just have to choose whether to believe me, that I know details about all this that are not yet public.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:
Was Barker a nazi?
Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?
Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.
Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:
Was Barker a nazi?
Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?
Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.
PRECISELY. Your games are yours, unquestionably, and with all implications; the creators, whoever they might have been, don't sit with you at the gaming table.
It's not like Tekumel is going to be stricken from the history books, either. It's just that its value as a business brand just dropped to absolute zero.
...And that's what's evidently irking some people, also because there's reason to believe that some might have acted in bad faith when they intentionally withheld information about Barker's connection to the American neonazi movement. It's this act of bad faith that might get them "canceled" - not, whatever, their general proximity to Barker.
Now, not really sure what the work of the "Tekumel Foundation" really entails, or what they have actually managed to get done in terms of "charitable work" - but if I had bought a license from them, or paid them any sort of money for other services, I'd now be suing. In fact, I would be very surprised if some folks wouldn't.
Quote from: Rafael on March 28, 2022, 06:31:41 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:
Was Barker a nazi?
Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?
Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.
PRECISELY. Your games are yours, unquestionably, and with all implications; the creators, whoever they might have been, don't sit with you at the gaming table.
It's not like Tekumel is going to be stricken from the history books, either. It's just that its value as a business brand just dropped to absolute zero.
...And that's what's evidently irking some people, also because there's reason to believe that some might have acted in bad faith when they intentionally withheld information about Barker's connection to the American neonazi movement. It's this act of bad faith that might get them "canceled" - not, whatever, their general proximity to Barker.
Now, not really sure what the work of the "Tekumel Foundation" really entails, or what they have actually managed to get done in terms of "charitable work" - but if I had bought a license from them, or paid them any sort of money for other services, I'd now be suing. In fact, I would be very surprised if some folks wouldn't.
Given that Tekumel material is still available through DTRPG, I don't see the "brand" as having no value. True, there will be some that will not be able to stomach that the work was produced by M.A.R. Barker and will not buy it. But there will be others that will be able to separate the art from the artist.
I looked at the Tekumel Foundation website: "The mission of the Tékumel Foundation is to preserve and promote the World of Tekumel as the creative legacy of Prof. Barker."
https://www.tekumelfoundation.org/about/foundation
While I would have guessed that it is a "charity" under some IRS designation, nothing is mentioned on the foundation website as to what specific type of charity it is.
And as for suing, what would you sue them for?
Would this be a good time to point out that Barker's naughty novel is for sale on the websites of Wal-Mart, Barnes & Noble, and Books-A-Million, among others, for $20 a pop? And apparently has been for some time?
Or do I need to let a little time pass so all the fine, upstanding people of the planet can properly display their Good Guy Badges and have their asses sniffed?
I'm horrible at timing these sorts of things, so... some guidance here?
Joe Schmuck writes a novel about surviving nazis staging a reunion tour... no big deal.
Joe Schmuck turns out to be the guy who glued together a fantasy world really only known among the denizens of a niche hobby? Call fucking CNN.
Quote from: Semaj Khan on March 28, 2022, 09:35:26 AM
Would this be a good time to point out that Barker's naughty novel is for sale on the websites of Wal-Mart, Barnes & Noble, and Books-A-Million, among others, for $20 a pop? And apparently has been for some time?
Or do I need to let a little time pass so all the fine, upstanding people of the planet can properly display their Good Guy Badges and have their asses sniffed?
I'm horrible at timing these sorts of things, so... some guidance here?
Joe Schmuck writes a novel about surviving nazis staging a reunion tour... no big deal.
Joe Schmuck turns out to be the guy who glued together a fantasy world really only known among the denizens of a niche hobby? Call fucking CNN.
You could just fuck off. We have enough trolls already.
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Semaj Khan on March 28, 2022, 09:35:26 AM
Would this be a good time to point out that Barker's naughty novel is for sale on the websites of Wal-Mart, Barnes & Noble, and Books-A-Million, among others, for $20 a pop? And apparently has been for some time?
Or do I need to let a little time pass so all the fine, upstanding people of the planet can properly display their Good Guy Badges and have their asses sniffed?
I'm horrible at timing these sorts of things, so... some guidance here?
Joe Schmuck writes a novel about surviving nazis staging a reunion tour... no big deal.
Joe Schmuck turns out to be the guy who glued together a fantasy world really only known among the denizens of a niche hobby? Call fucking CNN.
You could just fuck off. We have enough trolls already.
And you can eat my dick.
Or you could do the adult thang and just address my post instead of the
ad hominem tactic.
Quote from: Semaj Khan on March 28, 2022, 09:42:27 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Semaj Khan on March 28, 2022, 09:35:26 AM
Would this be a good time to point out that Barker's naughty novel is for sale on the websites of Wal-Mart, Barnes & Noble, and Books-A-Million, among others, for $20 a pop? And apparently has been for some time?
Or do I need to let a little time pass so all the fine, upstanding people of the planet can properly display their Good Guy Badges and have their asses sniffed?
I'm horrible at timing these sorts of things, so... some guidance here?
Joe Schmuck writes a novel about surviving nazis staging a reunion tour... no big deal.
Joe Schmuck turns out to be the guy who glued together a fantasy world really only known among the denizens of a niche hobby? Call fucking CNN.
You could just fuck off. We have enough trolls already.
And you can eat my dick.
Or you could do the adult thang and just address my post instead of the ad hominem tactic.
I didn't start the ad hominems. You used hyperbole, insults, and framed any opposing points in the worst possible way. There's nothing to address except you acting like an immature piece of shit.
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 10:47:43 AM
Quote from: Semaj Khan on March 28, 2022, 09:42:27 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Semaj Khan on March 28, 2022, 09:35:26 AM
Would this be a good time to point out that Barker's naughty novel is for sale on the websites of Wal-Mart, Barnes & Noble, and Books-A-Million, among others, for $20 a pop? And apparently has been for some time?
Or do I need to let a little time pass so all the fine, upstanding people of the planet can properly display their Good Guy Badges and have their asses sniffed?
I'm horrible at timing these sorts of things, so... some guidance here?
Joe Schmuck writes a novel about surviving nazis staging a reunion tour... no big deal.
Joe Schmuck turns out to be the guy who glued together a fantasy world really only known among the denizens of a niche hobby? Call fucking CNN.
You could just fuck off. We have enough trolls already.
And you can eat my dick.
Or you could do the adult thang and just address my post instead of the ad hominem tactic.
I didn't start the ad hominems. You used hyperbole, insults, and framed any opposing points in the worst possible way. There's nothing to address except you acting like an immature piece of shit.
Are you going to address the point?
The fucking book has been on sale for two decades; nary a peep.
Gets attached to Barker? Suddenly it's a problem.
Quote from: Semaj Khan on March 28, 2022, 10:54:22 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 10:47:43 AM
Quote from: Semaj Khan on March 28, 2022, 09:42:27 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Semaj Khan on March 28, 2022, 09:35:26 AM
Would this be a good time to point out that Barker's naughty novel is for sale on the websites of Wal-Mart, Barnes & Noble, and Books-A-Million, among others, for $20 a pop? And apparently has been for some time?
Or do I need to let a little time pass so all the fine, upstanding people of the planet can properly display their Good Guy Badges and have their asses sniffed?
I'm horrible at timing these sorts of things, so... some guidance here?
Joe Schmuck writes a novel about surviving nazis staging a reunion tour... no big deal.
Joe Schmuck turns out to be the guy who glued together a fantasy world really only known among the denizens of a niche hobby? Call fucking CNN.
You could just fuck off. We have enough trolls already.
And you can eat my dick.
Or you could do the adult thang and just address my post instead of the ad hominem tactic.
I didn't start the ad hominems. You used hyperbole, insults, and framed any opposing points in the worst possible way. There's nothing to address except you acting like an immature piece of shit.
Are you going to address the point?
The fucking book has been on sale for two decades; nary a peep.
Gets attached to Barker? Suddenly it's a problem.
Is the Serpent's Walk RPG-related? No, not until it was associated with Barker.
Why is this a hard concept.
Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:
Was Barker a nazi?
Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?
Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.
Ok, I'm confused. Then what should go on the red list?
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:11:29 AM
Quote from: Semaj Khan on March 28, 2022, 10:54:22 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 10:47:43 AM
Quote from: Semaj Khan on March 28, 2022, 09:42:27 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Semaj Khan on March 28, 2022, 09:35:26 AM
Would this be a good time to point out that Barker's naughty novel is for sale on the websites of Wal-Mart, Barnes & Noble, and Books-A-Million, among others, for $20 a pop? And apparently has been for some time?
Or do I need to let a little time pass so all the fine, upstanding people of the planet can properly display their Good Guy Badges and have their asses sniffed?
I'm horrible at timing these sorts of things, so... some guidance here?
Joe Schmuck writes a novel about surviving nazis staging a reunion tour... no big deal.
Joe Schmuck turns out to be the guy who glued together a fantasy world really only known among the denizens of a niche hobby? Call fucking CNN.
You could just fuck off. We have enough trolls already.
And you can eat my dick.
Or you could do the adult thang and just address my post instead of the ad hominem tactic.
I didn't start the ad hominems. You used hyperbole, insults, and framed any opposing points in the worst possible way. There's nothing to address except you acting like an immature piece of shit.
Are you going to address the point?
The fucking book has been on sale for two decades; nary a peep.
Gets attached to Barker? Suddenly it's a problem.
Is the Serpent's Walk RPG-related? No, not until it was associated with Barker.
Why is this a hard concept.
Yes.Exactly my point I was making.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:
Was Barker a nazi?
Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?
Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.
Ok, I'm confused. Then what should go on the red list?
We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.
Quote from: dkabq on March 28, 2022, 09:19:33 AMGiven that Tekumel material is still available through DTRPG, I don't see the "brand" as having no value.
Licensing the brand from now on will be a disaster, though. And if the case could be made that the TF (or other people) willfully withheld the information from their business partners, for all the reasons imaginable, could that not theoretically constitute what English-speakers call "tort of deceit"?
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:36:01 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:
Was Barker a nazi?
Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?
Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.
Ok, I'm confused. Then what should go on the red list?
We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.
And they are... (a foundation that publishes the back catalog of books, owns the IP of Tekumel, publishes fan works related to the setting, what?)? What relationship do they have to the RPG?
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:50:04 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:36:01 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:
Was Barker a nazi?
Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?
Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.
Ok, I'm confused. Then what should go on the red list?
We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.
And they are... (a foundation that publishes the back catalog of books, owns the IP of Tekumel, publishes fan works related to the setting, what?)? What relationship do they have to the RPG?
You just answered your own question. They control the Tekumel IP.
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:36:01 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:
Was Barker a nazi?
Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?
Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.
Ok, I'm confused. Then what should go on the red list?
We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.
Because putting the people who control/publish the IP on the red list doesn't mean the IP is in the red list....
It just means don't buy from these people because they are bad people...
Oh, the mental gimnastics.
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:03:07 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:50:04 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:36:01 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:
Was Barker a nazi?
Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?
Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.
Ok, I'm confused. Then what should go on the red list?
We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.
And they are... (a foundation that publishes the back catalog of books, owns the IP of Tekumel, publishes fan works related to the setting, what?)? What relationship do they have to the RPG?
You just answered your own question. They control the Tekumel IP.
Actually, those were questions, not statements. I had no idea which were correct. So, the Tekumel Foundation "controls" the IP. What does that mean? Do they publish works themselves, license out the IP, approve fan works, create new material? I'm just trying to understand exactly what products are being redlisted by redlisting the foundation. If the foundation just licenses the IP, then how would relisting them do anything (unless we are going to redlist anything they license, which is the whole setting of Tekumel, which you said we weren't redlisting above)? And if they do publish books, I'm just curious as to what part of the setting is still available. For example, if I'm new to Tekumel (which I am. Heard of it back in the day but never played it) and want to get started, can I purchase the setting books necessary to have a solid chance to run it without buying anything off the redlist?
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 05:25:21 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:03:07 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:50:04 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:36:01 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:
Was Barker a nazi?
Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?
Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.
Ok, I'm confused. Then what should go on the red list?
We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.
And they are... (a foundation that publishes the back catalog of books, owns the IP of Tekumel, publishes fan works related to the setting, what?)? What relationship do they have to the RPG?
You just answered your own question. They control the Tekumel IP.
Actually, those were questions, not statements. I had no idea which were correct. So, the Tekumel Foundation "controls" the IP. What does that mean? Do they publish works themselves, license out the IP, approve fan works, create new material? I'm just trying to understand exactly what products are being redlisted by redlisting the foundation. If the foundation just licenses the IP, then how would relisting them do anything (unless we are going to redlist anything they license, which is the whole setting of Tekumel, which you said we weren't redlisting above)? And if they do publish books, I'm just curious as to what part of the setting is still available. For example, if I'm new to Tekumel (which I am. Heard of it back in the day but never played it) and want to get started, can I purchase the setting books necessary to have a solid chance to run it without buying anything off the redlist?
They're the literary executor, i.e. they're granting the licenses on anything related to Tekumel. You'll have to ask someone else for the specifics in how they handle that, but I imagine they're making money on any new books related to Tekumel. If you want to avoid giving them money, you'll probably have to look at the second hand market.
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 05:56:11 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 05:25:21 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:03:07 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:50:04 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:36:01 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:
Was Barker a nazi?
Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?
Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.
Ok, I'm confused. Then what should go on the red list?
We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.
And they are... (a foundation that publishes the back catalog of books, owns the IP of Tekumel, publishes fan works related to the setting, what?)? What relationship do they have to the RPG?
You just answered your own question. They control the Tekumel IP.
Actually, those were questions, not statements. I had no idea which were correct. So, the Tekumel Foundation "controls" the IP. What does that mean? Do they publish works themselves, license out the IP, approve fan works, create new material? I'm just trying to understand exactly what products are being redlisted by redlisting the foundation. If the foundation just licenses the IP, then how would relisting them do anything (unless we are going to redlist anything they license, which is the whole setting of Tekumel, which you said we weren't redlisting above)? And if they do publish books, I'm just curious as to what part of the setting is still available. For example, if I'm new to Tekumel (which I am. Heard of it back in the day but never played it) and want to get started, can I purchase the setting books necessary to have a solid chance to run it without buying anything off the redlist?
They're the literary executor, i.e. they're granting the licenses on anything related to Tekumel. You'll have to ask someone else for the specifics in how they handle that, but I imagine they're making money on any new books related to Tekumel. If you want to avoid giving them money, you'll probably have to look at the second hand market.
So, basically, if I don't want to buy used/secondhand books (or they aren't available), and I want to also avoid buying from companies on the redlist, I really can't play in Tekumel (due to not being able to get setting materials). So, by redlisting the foundation, the setting is effectively redlisted...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 09:59:43 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 05:56:11 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 05:25:21 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:03:07 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:50:04 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:36:01 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:
Was Barker a nazi?
Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?
Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.
Ok, I'm confused. Then what should go on the red list?
We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.
And they are... (a foundation that publishes the back catalog of books, owns the IP of Tekumel, publishes fan works related to the setting, what?)? What relationship do they have to the RPG?
You just answered your own question. They control the Tekumel IP.
Actually, those were questions, not statements. I had no idea which were correct. So, the Tekumel Foundation "controls" the IP. What does that mean? Do they publish works themselves, license out the IP, approve fan works, create new material? I'm just trying to understand exactly what products are being redlisted by redlisting the foundation. If the foundation just licenses the IP, then how would relisting them do anything (unless we are going to redlist anything they license, which is the whole setting of Tekumel, which you said we weren't redlisting above)? And if they do publish books, I'm just curious as to what part of the setting is still available. For example, if I'm new to Tekumel (which I am. Heard of it back in the day but never played it) and want to get started, can I purchase the setting books necessary to have a solid chance to run it without buying anything off the redlist?
They're the literary executor, i.e. they're granting the licenses on anything related to Tekumel. You'll have to ask someone else for the specifics in how they handle that, but I imagine they're making money on any new books related to Tekumel. If you want to avoid giving them money, you'll probably have to look at the second hand market.
So, basically, if I don't want to buy used/secondhand books (or they aren't available), and I want to also avoid buying from companies on the redlist, I really can't play in Tekumel (due to not being able to get setting materials). So, by redlisting the foundation, the setting is effectively redlisted...
Exactly my point. And exactly the goal of Cocksuck Soyarmy.
I'm not too sure how that would be the "plan" of the SJWs. For starters, an awful lot of them seem to love Tekumel. Jeff Dee is an SJW and published a Tekumel book, and he's been having fits all over the internet trying to make it super clear he had no idea about Barker's other writings.
Second, how exactly is that a "plan"? Did they go back in a time machine and convince Barker to publish an SS fanboy novel with an infamous neo-nazi publishing house and serve on the board of the most notorious American holocaust-denial magazine?
Now, of course, some of them are going to happily try to somehow use this to throw shade on the whole OSR, or the entire TTRPG hobby, as though everyone knew all along or something, or there hasn't been large scale shock, anger and disappointment at discovering this now. That's a different thing. I don't think their goal is to eliminate Tekumel, and certainly not a pre-meditated one somehow.
The SJWs are always opportunists, but this isn't their fault or their doing, it's Barker's (and subsequently, the Tekumel Foundation for the cover-up).
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 09:59:43 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 05:56:11 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 05:25:21 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 12:03:07 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:50:04 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 11:36:01 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:29:22 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 27, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 10:24:27 PM
You fail to realize there's at least 2 different discussions going on:
Was Barker a nazi?
Should Tekumel be put in the Red List because Barker was a nazi?
Nobody is making the second argument. Tekumel is a setting, not a publisher. It would make no sense whatsoever to put it on the red list.
Ok, I'm confused. Then what should go on the red list?
We've been talking about the Tekumel Foundation.
And they are... (a foundation that publishes the back catalog of books, owns the IP of Tekumel, publishes fan works related to the setting, what?)? What relationship do they have to the RPG?
You just answered your own question. They control the Tekumel IP.
Actually, those were questions, not statements. I had no idea which were correct. So, the Tekumel Foundation "controls" the IP. What does that mean? Do they publish works themselves, license out the IP, approve fan works, create new material? I'm just trying to understand exactly what products are being redlisted by redlisting the foundation. If the foundation just licenses the IP, then how would relisting them do anything (unless we are going to redlist anything they license, which is the whole setting of Tekumel, which you said we weren't redlisting above)? And if they do publish books, I'm just curious as to what part of the setting is still available. For example, if I'm new to Tekumel (which I am. Heard of it back in the day but never played it) and want to get started, can I purchase the setting books necessary to have a solid chance to run it without buying anything off the redlist?
They're the literary executor, i.e. they're granting the licenses on anything related to Tekumel. You'll have to ask someone else for the specifics in how they handle that, but I imagine they're making money on any new books related to Tekumel. If you want to avoid giving them money, you'll probably have to look at the second hand market.
So, basically, if I don't want to buy used/secondhand books (or they aren't available), and I want to also avoid buying from companies on the redlist, I really can't play in Tekumel (due to not being able to get setting materials). So, by redlisting the foundation, the setting is effectively redlisted...
Is this what you were trying to build up to? The red list is for publishers, most of whom exclusive rights to some IP. This is an obvious tautology that was blindingly obvious from the start, not this logical trap you're trying to pretend it is.
It still doesn't involve putting Tekumel on the red list, or even Barker, because that's my point. That isn't the purpose of the red list. It's not about canceling abstract concepts like IPs, or people. It's about warning potential consumers of publishers who want your money but who have acted against their own fanbases in exclusionary ways.
And no, you can still play Tekumel all you like. It's your choice, nobody's forcing you to do anything. The list is not a mandate, it's a warning. It's mind boggling to me how many people have jumped in to express their outrage about an organization, who hid the fact that their IP was created by someone who wrote a pro-Nazi book, being put on a list that effectively just says hey you might not want to give them money, and gives the reason.
And if you were already a fan, you've probably got all the material you need for many lifetimes of play anyway. And if you weren't, then why jump on the bandwagon now?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 28, 2022, 11:13:34 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 09:59:43 PM
So, basically, if I don't want to buy used/secondhand books (or they aren't available), and I want to also avoid buying from companies on the redlist, I really can't play in Tekumel (due to not being able to get setting materials). So, by redlisting the foundation, the setting is effectively redlisted...
Exactly my point. And exactly the goal of Cocksuck Soyarmy.
I don't think his goal is to get Tekumel redlisted, his goal is to have an influence on the list. And then he'll see what else he can do. I'm not sure if it will do any good from his perspective, but it does show that he's pretending when he says he's just laughing about the list - it is having an effect.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 29, 2022, 04:52:27 AM
I'm not too sure how that would be the "plan" of the SJWs. For starters, an awful lot of them seem to love Tekumel. Jeff Dee is an SJW and published a Tekumel book, and he's been having fits all over the internet trying to make it super clear he had no idea about Barker's other writings.
Second, how exactly is that a "plan"? Did they go back in a time machine and convince Barker to publish an SS fanboy novel with an infamous neo-nazi publishing house and serve on the board of the most notorious American holocaust-denial magazine?
Now, of course, some of them are going to happily try to somehow use this to throw shade on the whole OSR, or the entire TTRPG hobby, as though everyone knew all along or something, or there hasn't been large scale shock, anger and disappointment at discovering this now. That's a different thing. I don't think their goal is to eliminate Tekumel, and certainly not a pre-meditated one somehow.
The SJWs are always opportunists, but this isn't their fault or their doing, it's Barker's (and subsequently, the Tekumel Foundation for the cover-up).
Oportunistic, exactly...
Their plan doesn't involve time travel of course, nor did it include Tekumel until it became a target for cancelation. Their plan does include destroying western culture tho.
As for the fundation not disclusing Barker's book...
Seriously? Did you forget the climate we all have been living in?
To the SJWs guilt by association is a thing, there's no redemption ever, what do you honestly think they would have done to the fundation?
Maybe before they gained political, social and media power... Now? You better think of a plan to avoid being cancelled.
And they were already a power 10 years ago, don't kid yourself.
Quote from: migo on March 29, 2022, 07:38:39 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 28, 2022, 11:13:34 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 09:59:43 PM
So, basically, if I don't want to buy used/secondhand books (or they aren't available), and I want to also avoid buying from companies on the redlist, I really can't play in Tekumel (due to not being able to get setting materials). So, by redlisting the foundation, the setting is effectively redlisted...
Exactly my point. And exactly the goal of Cocksuck Soyarmy.
I don't think his goal is to get Tekumel redlisted, his goal is to have an influence on the list. And then he'll see what else he can do. I'm not sure if it will do any good from his perspective, but it does show that he's pretending when he says he's just laughing about the list - it is having an effect.
Same difference.
His goal IS what you say, Tekumel is the means to do so.
Of course it's having an effect, now we are doing to them what they have been doing to everybody for over a decade. With the exception that we're limitinbg ourselves to boycotting their products not trying to have them thrown out of society and dying in abyect poverty in the streets along with all their loved ones (IF they are even capable of loving anyone not themselves).
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 29, 2022, 04:52:27 AM
Did they go back in a time machine and convince Barker to publish an SS fanboy novel with an infamous neo-nazi publishing house and serve on the board of the most notorious American holocaust-denial magazine?
Most are focusing on the Nazi fanfic, but the magazine is the topper for me.
It's like finding out Varg Vikernes wrote Tekumel.
Quote from: DocJones on March 29, 2022, 12:42:38 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 29, 2022, 04:52:27 AM
Did they go back in a time machine and convince Barker to publish an SS fanboy novel with an infamous neo-nazi publishing house and serve on the board of the most notorious American holocaust-denial magazine?
Most are focusing on the Nazi fanfic, but the magazine is the topper for me.
It's like finding out Varg Vikernes wrote Tekumel.
At least Varg comes with the benefit of spewing hilarious dumb takes on twitter like clock work.
Quote from: DocJones on March 29, 2022, 12:42:38 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 29, 2022, 04:52:27 AM
Did they go back in a time machine and convince Barker to publish an SS fanboy novel with an infamous neo-nazi publishing house and serve on the board of the most notorious American holocaust-denial magazine?
Most are focusing on the Nazi fanfic, but the magazine is the topper for me.
It's like finding out Varg Vikernes wrote Tekumel.
If I suddenly found out that Varg is capable of writing that's not a complete and utter trash I'd get a heart attack.
Quote from: DocJones on March 29, 2022, 12:42:38 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 29, 2022, 04:52:27 AM
Did they go back in a time machine and convince Barker to publish an SS fanboy novel with an infamous neo-nazi publishing house and serve on the board of the most notorious American holocaust-denial magazine?
Most are focusing on the Nazi fanfic, but the magazine is the topper for me.
It's like finding out Varg Vikernes wrote Tekumel.
Except, you know... We still dont know why he was on that board. As had been noted. He was against these people and so for all we know he sat on the board to keep an eye on them. Or he sat on the board to do research for the book.
So... Again this amounts to exactly what the JSWs do to people all the time, every iteration.
As said earlier. Which is more likely? That he was anti-nazi and wrote the book to fuck with them somehow? And if his letter is correct then far as he knew at the time of writing the book was not accepted by them? And the published book does not quite match his synopsis? Which suggests the
publisher altered it?
Or that he was a neo-nazi and hid it from everyone. Or that everyone has been concealing that he was all these decades? Some massive conspiracy? Why does one person get a pass for hiding this and another does not?
Unfortunately I know exactly a designer who's done some pretty wretched things and so far kept it concealed for decades. So I can not discount any angle. But current indicators are that no he was not a neo-nazi without something more to tip the scales other than screaming NAZI!
Quote from: Omega on March 30, 2022, 03:42:00 AM
Except, you know... We still dont know why he was on that board. As had been noted. He was against these people and so for all we know he sat on the board to keep an eye on them. Or he sat on the board to do research for the book.
So... Again this amounts to exactly what the JSWs do to people all the time, every iteration.
As said earlier. Which is more likely? That he was anti-nazi and wrote the book to fuck with them somehow? And if his letter is correct then far as he knew at the time of writing the book was not accepted by them? And the published book does not quite match his synopsis? Which suggests the publisher altered it?
Or that he was a neo-nazi and hid it from everyone. Or that everyone has been concealing that he was all these decades? Some massive conspiracy? Why does one person get a pass for hiding this and another does not?
Unfortunately I know exactly a designer who's done some pretty wretched things and so far kept it concealed for decades. So I can not discount any angle. But current indicators are that no he was not a neo-nazi without something more to tip the scales other than screaming NAZI!
He was a Muslim, and Muslim's are notorious for being anti-Jewish and for being Holocaust-deniers. They do it openly and don't get criticised for it by people on the left. And he wasn't just any Muslim, he was a Muslim convert. And not just any Muslim convert, but one who had a PhD before converting.
He knew what he was converting to, which means he knew Islam was anti-Jewish before he converted. He did so anyway. And then he sat on the board of a Holocaust-denying journal, and wrote a Neo-Nazi Sci-Fi. By far the most likely explanation is that he hated Jews, and as a Muslim he didn't even need to hide it. And the suggestion that he was against it all and 'keeping an eye on them' while possible, is completely implausible.
If he were literally on trial, would we have to give him the benefit of the doubt? Yes. But he's not on trial, and he's dead. We don't have to go that far, we just need to look at what was most likely. And that's obvious.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 04:00:54 AM
Quote from: Omega on March 30, 2022, 03:42:00 AM
Except, you know... We still dont know why he was on that board. As had been noted. He was against these people and so for all we know he sat on the board to keep an eye on them. Or he sat on the board to do research for the book.
So... Again this amounts to exactly what the JSWs do to people all the time, every iteration.
As said earlier. Which is more likely? That he was anti-nazi and wrote the book to fuck with them somehow? And if his letter is correct then far as he knew at the time of writing the book was not accepted by them? And the published book does not quite match his synopsis? Which suggests the publisher altered it?
Or that he was a neo-nazi and hid it from everyone. Or that everyone has been concealing that he was all these decades? Some massive conspiracy? Why does one person get a pass for hiding this and another does not?
Unfortunately I know exactly a designer who's done some pretty wretched things and so far kept it concealed for decades. So I can not discount any angle. But current indicators are that no he was not a neo-nazi without something more to tip the scales other than screaming NAZI!
He was a Muslim, and Muslim's are notorious for being anti-Jewish and for being Holocaust-deniers. They do it openly and don't get criticised for it by people on the left. And he wasn't just any Muslim, he was a Muslim convert. And not just any Muslim convert, but one who had a PhD before converting.
He knew what he was converting to, which means he knew Islam was anti-Jewish before he converted. He did so anyway. And then he sat on the board of a Holocaust-denying journal, and wrote a Neo-Nazi Sci-Fi. By far the most likely explanation is that he hated Jews, and as a Muslim he didn't even need to hide it. And the suggestion that he was against it all and 'keeping an eye on them' while possible, is completely implausible.
If he were literally on trial, would we have to give him the benefit of the doubt? Yes. But he's not on trial, and he's dead. We don't have to go that far, we just need to look at what was most likely. And that's obvious.
I'm pretty sure most legal systems only require something to be proven beyond reasonable doubt, not beyond unreasonable doubt conjured up by fanciful scenarios that have absolutely nothing backing them up.
As for the religion, eh, it's not like Christianity has been particularly friendly toward Jews either. Monotheistic religions tend to be like that.
Quote from: Omega on March 30, 2022, 03:42:00 AM
Quote from: DocJones on March 29, 2022, 12:42:38 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 29, 2022, 04:52:27 AM
Did they go back in a time machine and convince Barker to publish an SS fanboy novel with an infamous neo-nazi publishing house and serve on the board of the most notorious American holocaust-denial magazine?
Most are focusing on the Nazi fanfic, but the magazine is the topper for me.
It's like finding out Varg Vikernes wrote Tekumel.
Except, you know... We still dont know why he was on that board. As had been noted. He was against these people and so for all we know he sat on the board to keep an eye on them. Or he sat on the board to do research for the book.
So... Again this amounts to exactly what the JSWs do to people all the time, every iteration.
As said earlier. Which is more likely? That he was anti-nazi and wrote the book to fuck with them somehow? And if his letter is correct then far as he knew at the time of writing the book was not accepted by them? And the published book does not quite match his synopsis? Which suggests the publisher altered it?
Or that he was a neo-nazi and hid it from everyone. Or that everyone has been concealing that he was all these decades? Some massive conspiracy? Why does one person get a pass for hiding this and another does not?
Unfortunately I know exactly a designer who's done some pretty wretched things and so far kept it concealed for decades. So I can not discount any angle. But current indicators are that no he was not a neo-nazi without something more to tip the scales other than screaming NAZI!
It's lamentably not like that. Barker, likely not a liberal because of his religious choices, wrote a number of fantasy texts that, while not particularly anti-Semitic or pro-nazi, seem quite backwards and reactionary, even for the genre of epic fantasy. (Tekumel, the setting, and Tekumel, as per his novels.) In addition to that, he actively pursued tasks that link him to nazi enterprises, like the publisher, the dreadful novel, or the magazine. And even in the passage of the letter in which he delivers a brief description of the novel (as quoted by Dave Morris), he fantasizes about the Mossad assassinating him.
That he likens himself to Salman Rushdie in this context, as if Rushdie's writings were somehow even remotely comparable to his nazi fapfest, is also rather worrisome - first, because it points to serious delusions of grandeur, and second, because it might point to Barker believing the fake Islamist narrative (at the time) that the assassination attempt against Rushdie in 1989 had actually been orchestrated by the Mossad, and not by a Muslim extremist.
https://fabledlands.blogspot.com/2022/03/was-professor-m-r-barker-nazi.html
Quote"The only people I can imagine enjoying this book would be skinheads and Sir Oswald Mosley. It would probably create as much fuss as Rushdie's Satanic Verses, and could not be published under my own name. Both the author and the publisher would become the target of many rude remarks, letter-bombs, hand grenades, and visits from Mossad. I mentioned this book just to show you that I am not completely dead -- yet. Still alive and working. I don't expect you to want to publish it. Nobody will. I cannot even sell it to the Neo-Nazi presses here; they would not accept the idea of an Indian girl marrying the hero."
Doesn't look like there's any nuance here, for now. --- If the TF provided other, additional documentation, maybe. But given that they have, so far, fully owned that Barker did the things he did, and explicitly ask their readers that these things would need to be "recognized as part of Professor Barker's past", and are even already trying to move on from the issue itself, I wouldn't be holding my breath.
It would be nice if some kind of saving grace could be found for Barker, but in the texts the public was so far provided with, they are plainly not enough - as are, at this point, any statements from Barker's inner circle, given how they had intentionally been withholding this information until called out.
- I guess, sometimes, somethings are just what they seem.
Quote from: Blankman on March 30, 2022, 05:00:44 AM
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 04:00:54 AM
Quote from: Omega on March 30, 2022, 03:42:00 AM
Except, you know... We still dont know why he was on that board. As had been noted. He was against these people and so for all we know he sat on the board to keep an eye on them. Or he sat on the board to do research for the book.
So... Again this amounts to exactly what the JSWs do to people all the time, every iteration.
As said earlier. Which is more likely? That he was anti-nazi and wrote the book to fuck with them somehow? And if his letter is correct then far as he knew at the time of writing the book was not accepted by them? And the published book does not quite match his synopsis? Which suggests the publisher altered it?
Or that he was a neo-nazi and hid it from everyone. Or that everyone has been concealing that he was all these decades? Some massive conspiracy? Why does one person get a pass for hiding this and another does not?
Unfortunately I know exactly a designer who's done some pretty wretched things and so far kept it concealed for decades. So I can not discount any angle. But current indicators are that no he was not a neo-nazi without something more to tip the scales other than screaming NAZI!
He was a Muslim, and Muslim's are notorious for being anti-Jewish and for being Holocaust-deniers. They do it openly and don't get criticised for it by people on the left. And he wasn't just any Muslim, he was a Muslim convert. And not just any Muslim convert, but one who had a PhD before converting.
He knew what he was converting to, which means he knew Islam was anti-Jewish before he converted. He did so anyway. And then he sat on the board of a Holocaust-denying journal, and wrote a Neo-Nazi Sci-Fi. By far the most likely explanation is that he hated Jews, and as a Muslim he didn't even need to hide it. And the suggestion that he was against it all and 'keeping an eye on them' while possible, is completely implausible.
If he were literally on trial, would we have to give him the benefit of the doubt? Yes. But he's not on trial, and he's dead. We don't have to go that far, we just need to look at what was most likely. And that's obvious.
I'm pretty sure most legal systems only require something to be proven beyond reasonable doubt, not beyond unreasonable doubt conjured up by fanciful scenarios that have absolutely nothing backing them up.
As for the religion, eh, it's not like Christianity has been particularly friendly toward Jews either. Monotheistic religions tend to be like that.
Yes Christianity has been very unfriendly towards Jews, but if you're a Christian and you talk about your hatred of Jews, or even just about how Jews are bad, you'll get pounced on instantly, and it has been like this since the end of WW2. Want to trash talk Jews and get away with it? Be a Muslim. Islam may not be any more anti-Jewish than Christianity when it was at peak Jew-hating, but it's the only religion with peak Jew-hating now, because it's the only religion where hating Jews is tolerated by the left.
And it's only Christianity and Islam that are exceptionally unfriendly towards Jews. Sikhism, which is also a monotheistic religion, doesn't have any ill will towards Jews.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 05:17:51 AM
Quote from: Blankman on March 30, 2022, 05:00:44 AM
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 04:00:54 AM
Quote from: Omega on March 30, 2022, 03:42:00 AM
Except, you know... We still dont know why he was on that board. As had been noted. He was against these people and so for all we know he sat on the board to keep an eye on them. Or he sat on the board to do research for the book.
So... Again this amounts to exactly what the JSWs do to people all the time, every iteration.
As said earlier. Which is more likely? That he was anti-nazi and wrote the book to fuck with them somehow? And if his letter is correct then far as he knew at the time of writing the book was not accepted by them? And the published book does not quite match his synopsis? Which suggests the publisher altered it?
Or that he was a neo-nazi and hid it from everyone. Or that everyone has been concealing that he was all these decades? Some massive conspiracy? Why does one person get a pass for hiding this and another does not?
Unfortunately I know exactly a designer who's done some pretty wretched things and so far kept it concealed for decades. So I can not discount any angle. But current indicators are that no he was not a neo-nazi without something more to tip the scales other than screaming NAZI!
He was a Muslim, and Muslim's are notorious for being anti-Jewish and for being Holocaust-deniers. They do it openly and don't get criticised for it by people on the left. And he wasn't just any Muslim, he was a Muslim convert. And not just any Muslim convert, but one who had a PhD before converting.
He knew what he was converting to, which means he knew Islam was anti-Jewish before he converted. He did so anyway. And then he sat on the board of a Holocaust-denying journal, and wrote a Neo-Nazi Sci-Fi. By far the most likely explanation is that he hated Jews, and as a Muslim he didn't even need to hide it. And the suggestion that he was against it all and 'keeping an eye on them' while possible, is completely implausible.
If he were literally on trial, would we have to give him the benefit of the doubt? Yes. But he's not on trial, and he's dead. We don't have to go that far, we just need to look at what was most likely. And that's obvious.
I'm pretty sure most legal systems only require something to be proven beyond reasonable doubt, not beyond unreasonable doubt conjured up by fanciful scenarios that have absolutely nothing backing them up.
As for the religion, eh, it's not like Christianity has been particularly friendly toward Jews either. Monotheistic religions tend to be like that.
Yes Christianity has been very unfriendly towards Jews, but if you're a Christian and you talk about your hatred of Jews, or even just about how Jews are bad, you'll get pounced on instantly, and it has been like this since the end of WW2. Want to trash talk Jews and get away with it? Be a Muslim. Islam may not be any more anti-Jewish than Christianity when it was at peak Jew-hating, but it's the only religion with peak Jew-hating now, because it's the only religion where hating Jews is tolerated by the left.
And it's only Christianity and Islam that are exceptionally unfriendly towards Jews. Sikhism, which is also a monotheistic religion, doesn't have any ill will towards Jews.
M.A.R. Barker lived in Minneapolis, not in Riyadh. It wasn't Christians who decided that antisemitism was bad after WWII, it was the western world as a whole, and Barker lived in that western world.
As to whatever something something about "the left" now, well, Barker converted to Islam on a trip to India in 1951, 71 years ago. Your thoughts about what leftists do or don't believe today has no bearing on his conversion. Also your idea that he knew what he was getting into as he had a PhD doesn't hold up, because he was 22 at the time of his conversion and didn't have a PhD yet. And he converted while in India, far removed from Israel and Palestine and having its own sectarian conflict between Hindus and Muslims that would overshadow anything to do with Judaism then and there.
Sikhism has not quite twice the adherents Judaism has, around 20-30 million, 90% of whom live in Hindu-dominated India. it simply does not have the standing anywhere to be intolerant of any other religions.
It doesn't matter where in the world you live, as long as it's not Israel, hatred of Jews is tolerated if it comes from Muslims and isn't tolerated if it comes from anyone else. You could be a Jew-hating Christian in a Muslim dominated area, but you can't be a Jew-hating Christian in a Christian dominated area (anymore).
Sikhism isn't tolerant towards Jews because they can't afford to be intolerant, Sikhism is tolerant towards Jews because it's not an Abrahamic religion, and it's the non-Jewish Abrahamic religions that have the hate-on for Jews. Hinduism is dominant in India, and there's no Jew-hatred coming from Hindus.
Jew hatred comes from Christianity and Islam because Judaism was the original religion, and if they come up with a revision of the Abrahamic religion, of course they have to trash the version that came first. Non-Abrahamic religions don't need to do that, because they have a completely different foundation.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 05:42:06 AM
It doesn't matter where in the world you live, as long as it's not Israel, hatred of Jews is tolerated if it comes from Muslims and isn't tolerated if it comes from anyone else. You could be a Jew-hating Christian in a Muslim dominated area, but you can't be a Jew-hating Christian in a Christian dominated area (anymore).
Sikhism isn't tolerant towards Jews because they can't afford to be intolerant, Sikhism is tolerant towards Jews because it's not an Abrahamic religion, and it's the non-Jewish Abrahamic religions that have the hate-on for Jews. Hinduism is dominant in India, and there's no Jew-hatred coming from Hindus.
Jew hatred comes from Christianity and Islam because Judaism was the original religion, and if they come up with a revision of the Abrahamic religion, of course they have to trash the version that came first. Non-Abrahamic religions don't need to do that, because they have a completely different foundation.
1: You forgot to acknowledge that you were wrong about when Barker converted.
2: You forgot that 1951 was not 2022, and that an attitude you think is prevalent now among the left has nothing to do with Barker's conversion to Islam back in 1951.
3: No, antisemitism is not tolerated if it comes from a Muslim. If it was, there would be no uproar about Barker being one.
4: There is quite a lot of intolerance between Muslims and Hindus in South Asia, and they don't have the same religious foundation at all. Sikhs and Muslims also have a lot of bad blood, and after an orgy of violence with hundreds of thousands of dead Sikhs and Muslims moved en masse to India after the participation created muslim Pakistan and Hindu India. Turns out that religious hatred and persecution has a lot more to do with different religious groups living in close proximity to each other and how that intersects with secular authority than it does with what foundation the religion is based on.
Quote from: Blankman on March 30, 2022, 06:01:42 AM
1: You forgot to acknowledge that you were wrong about when Barker converted.
2: You forgot that 1951 was not 2022, and that an attitude you think is prevalent now among the left has nothing to do with Barker's conversion to Islam back in 1951.
3: No, antisemitism is not tolerated if it comes from a Muslim. If it was, there would be no uproar about Barker being one.
4: There is quite a lot of intolerance between Muslims and Hindus in South Asia, and they don't have the same religious foundation at all. Sikhs and Muslims also have a lot of bad blood, and after an orgy of violence with hundreds of thousands of dead Sikhs and Muslims moved en masse to India after the participation created muslim Pakistan and Hindu India. Turns out that religious hatred and persecution has a lot more to do with different religious groups living in close proximity to each other and how that intersects with secular authority than it does with what foundation the religion is based on.
1. I never said anything about when he converted.
2. 1951 is after 1945, which is after the point that Islam was the only religion that openly encouraged being against Jews.
3. Hating Jews is absolutely tolerated when it comes from a Muslim, and has never been seriously condemned by the majority.
4. The friction between Muslims and Hindus has nothing to do with Hindus, and everything to do with Muslims. It's not only Jews that they hate, but literally anyone who isn't monotheistic, whether polytheistic or atheist. As Hinduism is fundamentally polytheistic and completely compatible with atheism, it's incompatible with Islam. Hindus in Bali, being in a Muslim dominated nation, re-imaged Hinduism as a monotheistic religion to avoid being persecuted. Anywhere Islam goes, you'll see conflict because they haven't yet figured out peaceful coexistence. Hell, they can't even keep from killing each other (Shia and Sunni). Christianity absolutely was like that in the past, but it isn't anymore.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 06:12:35 AM
Quote from: Blankman on March 30, 2022, 06:01:42 AM
1: You forgot to acknowledge that you were wrong about when Barker converted.
2: You forgot that 1951 was not 2022, and that an attitude you think is prevalent now among the left has nothing to do with Barker's conversion to Islam back in 1951.
3: No, antisemitism is not tolerated if it comes from a Muslim. If it was, there would be no uproar about Barker being one.
4: There is quite a lot of intolerance between Muslims and Hindus in South Asia, and they don't have the same religious foundation at all. Sikhs and Muslims also have a lot of bad blood, and after an orgy of violence with hundreds of thousands of dead Sikhs and Muslims moved en masse to India after the participation created muslim Pakistan and Hindu India. Turns out that religious hatred and persecution has a lot more to do with different religious groups living in close proximity to each other and how that intersects with secular authority than it does with what foundation the religion is based on.
1. I never said anything about when he converted.
I see, so this quote was written by someone else then? Or are you under the impression that Barker had a PhD when he was 22? Bolding mine.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 04:00:54 AMHe was a Muslim, and Muslim's are notorious for being anti-Jewish and for being Holocaust-deniers. They do it openly and don't get criticised for it by people on the left. And he wasn't just any Muslim, he was a Muslim convert. And not just any Muslim convert, but one who had a PhD before converting.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 06:12:35 AM
2. 1951 is after 1945, which is after the point that Islam was the only religion that openly encouraged being against Jews.
What Islam encourages or not doesn't really have anything to do with it here, it is about you saying it is tolerated by others if it is a Muslim, which is simply not true.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 06:12:35 AM
3. Hating Jews is absolutely tolerated when it comes from a Muslim, and has never been seriously condemned by the majority.
No it is not. As proof, I offer the example of M.A.R. Barker and the posthumous revelation that he was an antisemite, and how he has been roundly condemned for this. Since he kept this relatively secret as well means he himself obviously did not think he could just spout off these antisemitic ideas publicly and be excused for them simply because he was a Muslim.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 06:12:35 AM4. The friction between Muslims and Hindus has nothing to do with Hindus, and everything to do with Muslims. It's not only Jews that they hate, but literally anyone who isn't monotheistic, whether polytheistic or atheist. As Hinduism is fundamentally polytheistic and completely compatible with atheism, it's incompatible with Islam. Hindus in Bali, being in a Muslim dominated nation, re-imaged Hinduism as a monotheistic religion to avoid being persecuted. Anywhere Islam goes, you'll see conflict because they haven't yet figured out peaceful coexistence. Hell, they can't even keep from killing each other (Shia and Sunni). Christianity absolutely was like that in the past, but it isn't anymore.
Polytheism is not compatible with atheism no, and saying that means you don't understand what either of those words mean. Friction between Muslims and Hindus are not on Muslims alone, there's a long history there. And ultimately, that long history is what drives these continuing religious conflicts, everywhere they occur. It has nothing to do with whether two religions have a common origin, it has everything to do with whether adherents of those religions are living in close proximity to each other.
Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 05:04:25 PM
what about Cherine who learned this apparently a decade ago. And yet on this very forum has said not a damn thing about it?
Oh yeah he's busy throwing this forum under the bus on TBP after being accused of associating with the right wing extremists here (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/m-a-r-barker-creator-of-t%C3%A9kumel-wrote-a-neo-nazi-novel-in-1991-he-also-sat-on-the-board-of-a-holocaust-denial-publication.895130/page-2#post-24289861).
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 21, 2022, 03:17:42 PM
The SJWs are not lying, they believe that you are a literal Nazi. Yet you throw around the exact same accusation and then expect everyone to believe you but not believe them.
And I'm not saying that Barker wasn't a Nazi, I'm just saying that you shouldn't be so quick and eager to make that accusation considering how many have done the same thing to you.
So we shouldn't accuse someone of something we ourselves are accused of?
Sorry, but unlike the SJWs his accusations are based on evidence, and so far there's plenty of evidence that Barker was on the board of a Nazi 'historical' society, wrote a novel about Nazis, sought out Nazis to publish it, and was then paid by them. And that book is
still being used for propaganda today.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 29, 2022, 04:52:27 AM
I'm not too sure how that would be the "plan" of the SJWs. For starters, an awful lot of them seem to love Tekumel. Jeff Dee is an SJW and published a Tekumel book, and he's been having fits all over the internet trying to make it super clear he had no idea about Barker's other writings.
Speak of the devil he's now playfully pushing #OccupyTekumel to remove the 'problematic' elements of the setting on #Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/groups/16107501733/posts/10158184812541734/)...
Quote from: Jeff DeeJust a random brain fart in the midst of all the recent horrific revelations...
We're always being reminded that Barker used to encourage people not to be constrained by what he'd written about Tekumel, but rather to *make it our own*.
So let's take him at his word. Let's have a slave revolt. Let's throw the Tlakotanis out on their resplendent asses. Let's have equal rights for the lower status clans. And whatever else we can come up with, particularly if it might make a Nazi cry. OCCUPY TEKUMEL. Who's with me?
...and just in case you're hoping for any self-awareness among the replies... (https://www.facebook.com/groups/16107501733/posts/10158184812541734?comment_id=10158186105486734&reply_comment_id=10158186117121734)
Quote from: Jeff DeeOh and also, let's discover that there are Jews on Tekumel. Maybe in cryo-sleep or something, but yeah. They survived the atomic war on Earth. You know who didn't? Nazis.
Quote from: David AckermanThere's a covert Jewish Temple that has existed for thousands of years and is leading a quiet, subversive long term revolt against the rigid autocracies of the Five Empires.
Of course, we'd better find someone Jewish to write this.
...because I'm sure adding a covert Jewish revolt bent on subverting the current regime will go over swimmingly after this fiasco as long as we have a Jewish writer.
Oy Vey!
Quote from: Omega on March 30, 2022, 03:42:00 AM
Quote from: DocJones on March 29, 2022, 12:42:38 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 29, 2022, 04:52:27 AM
Did they go back in a time machine and convince Barker to publish an SS fanboy novel with an infamous neo-nazi publishing house and serve on the board of the most notorious American holocaust-denial magazine?
Most are focusing on the Nazi fanfic, but the magazine is the topper for me.
It's like finding out Varg Vikernes wrote Tekumel.
Except, you know... We still dont know why he was on that board. As had been noted. He was against these people and so for all we know he sat on the board to keep an eye on them. Or he sat on the board to do research for the book.
You mean the book that portrays Nazis in a positive light?
I get that some people will stretch the evidence in the favor of someone they like. But this is far beyond stretching. You're fabricating a conspiratorial motivation with no grounding in reality and no supporting evidence to counter extremely strong evidence that blows any reasonable doubt out of the water.
1. I see, I was wrong about when he had his PhD. That doesn't change anything significantly - he was still university educated when he converted to Islam, which means he knew what he was converting to.
2. You're simply wrong about this. It is tolerated. Louis Farrakhan is only criticised by a small portion of the right wing, his open hatred of Jews is tolerated. Linda Sarsour and Rasmea Odeh - the latter who hated Jews so much she killed them - was openly welcomed in the Women's March. You're unaware of it being tolerated because it is tolerated so much the left simply doesn't talk about it.
3. It's the Tekumel foundation that's being condemned for keeping it hidden more than Barker himself - obviously there isn't much point in condemning someone who's already dead.
4. Polytheism is absolutely compatible with atheism - perhaps not in every variant of polytheism, but there are atheist Hindus and there are polytheist Hindus. Just as there were atheist Hellenists and polytheist Hellenists, and they live together (and lived together in the case of the Hellenists) without any friction. If you think they're incompatible, you don't understand pagan beliefs.
Sikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, Hindus - they can all live in close proximity to each other without any problems. Muslims can't live in close proximity with other - but different - Muslims without having conflict. And Christianity used to be like that. It's not that 'all religions are like that', it's specifically Abrahamic religions that are like that. Judaism used to be like that, Christianity used to be like that, and Islam still is like that.
@Anon Adderlan care to post a link about what Cherine is saying here. Aka ways good to see hypocrites make fools of themselves.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM
1. I see, I was wrong about when he had his PhD. That doesn't change anything significantly - he was still university educated when he converted to Islam, which means he knew what he was converting to.
No, it changes rather a lot if you're not even a grad student vs if you have a PhD.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM2. You're simply wrong about this. It is tolerated. Louis Farrakhan is only criticised by a small portion of the right wing, his open hatred of Jews is tolerated. Linda Sarsour and Rasmea Odeh - the latter who hated Jews so much she killed them - was openly welcomed in the Women's March. You're unaware of it being tolerated because it is tolerated so much the left simply doesn't talk about it.
If it was tolerated, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And again, how you perceive things to be now (which isn't connected to roleplaying at all so I'll leave it there) is irrelevant to what was going on in 1951 when Barker converted. The Women's march happened years after Barker had died, and more than half a century after he converted to Islam. He didn't plan his conversion to Islam based on what some people were going to do more than 60 years into the future. You also stated that as a Muslim, he wouldn't need to hide his antisemitism, yet he did hide it. If he hadn't, the information in this thread wouldn't have been surprising to anyone.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM3. It's the Tekumel foundation that's being condemned for keeping it hidden more than Barker himself - obviously there isn't much point in condemning someone who's already dead.
No, Barker is absolutely being excoriated, but he is, as you say, dead. People don't get excoriated for hiding the bad beliefs of someone if whoever held the beliefs wouldn't get slammed for holding them.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM4. Polytheism is absolutely compatible with atheism - perhaps not in every variant of polytheism, but there are atheist Hindus and there are polytheist Hindus. Just as there were atheist Hellenists and polytheist Hellenists, and they live together (and lived together in the case of the Hellenists) without any friction. If you think they're incompatible, you don't understand pagan beliefs.
Atheism is the belief that no gods exist. Polytheism is the belief in many gods. You cannot be an atheist polytheist. Hinduism isn't really a religion but a term for a set of cultural beliefs shared by several different religions, but you can't actually be an adherent of a Polytheistic religion without believing in the existence of gods. You can be a spiritualist, and you can deny the existence of a creator god and believe the gods came in after the world was made, but if you don't believe in any gods, you're not a polytheist.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AMSikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, Hindus - they can all live in close proximity to each other without any problems. Muslims can't live in close proximity with other - but different - Muslims without having conflict. And Christianity used to be like that. It's not that 'all religions are like that', it's specifically Abrahamic religions that are like that. Judaism used to be like that, Christianity used to be like that, and Islam still is like that.
Huh, and I could have sworn that there was Sikh sectarian violence in India (see the Sikh-Nirankari clash) and a Sikh separatist movement in India that culminated in Operation Blue Star in the 1980s when Indira Gandhi ordered the army to attack the holiest Sikh site, the Golden Temple. Then Gandhi was assassinated by her Sikh bodyguards in revenge for this, after which followed riots and violence directed specifically against Sikhs. Huh, almost looks like religious tensions from here, but clearly those are impossible if an Abrahamic religion isn't involved.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM
4. Polytheism is absolutely compatible with atheism - perhaps not in every variant of polytheism, but there are atheist Hindus and there are polytheist Hindus. Just as there were atheist Hellenists and polytheist Hellenists, and they live together (and lived together in the case of the Hellenists) without any friction. If you think they're incompatible, you don't understand pagan beliefs.
Sikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, Hindus - they can all live in close proximity to each other without any problems. Muslims can't live in close proximity with other - but different - Muslims without having conflict. And Christianity used to be like that. It's not that 'all religions are like that', it's specifically Abrahamic religions that are like that. Judaism used to be like that, Christianity used to be like that, and Islam still is like that.
How the fuck can someone be an "atheist polytheist"? Unless you're doing some weird thing where you're conflating the religion and the culture around it, which still doesn't make any sense.
The idea that religious conflict is a specifically Abrahamic thing is so stupid it's laughable. There is a long a storied tradition of Buddhist religious violence. In fact every tradition you named has been associated with religious justifications for violence. Honestly how can you say something so asinine with a straight face?
Quote from: Abraxus on March 30, 2022, 07:34:16 AM
@Anon Adderlan care to post a link about what Cherine is saying here. Aka ways good to see hypocrites make fools of themselves.
Huh, guess I forgot to add the link. Fixed!
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 30, 2022, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 30, 2022, 07:34:16 AM
@Anon Adderlan care to post a link about what Cherine is saying here. Aka ways good to see hypocrites make fools of themselves.
Huh, guess I forgot to add the link. Fixed!
Thanks!
I love how he pretends not to know the general character of the forums.
I guess hypocrites are going to be hypocritical.
Quote from: Redwanderer on March 17, 2022, 06:00:46 PM
Crying shame ain't more people whining about the anti-white stuff from things like ADL and SPLC and MURDER bigotry from BLM. What, some kinds of bigotry okay but not others?
Apparently being anti-white, regardless of culture or nationality, is not racism to these woke turds. Questioning them about it, and calling them out on their bigotry, gets you called alt-Right.
But being anti-(insert anything not white here) is a crime against their humanity.
They are the most hate filled social/political group to have risen up in decades, and are completely blind to it.
But if you come out as anti-white, you're not racist. You're pro diversity and inclusive.
Quote from: Abraxus on March 30, 2022, 09:50:50 AM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 30, 2022, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 30, 2022, 07:34:16 AM
@Anon Adderlan care to post a link about what Cherine is saying here. Aka ways good to see hypocrites make fools of themselves.
Huh, guess I forgot to add the link. Fixed!
Thanks!
I love how he pretends not to know the general character of the forums.
I guess hypocrites are going to be hypocritical.
The little bitch is trying a desperate CYA...
History: 4400+ posts and last active 7 days ago
vs."stopped posting there because I discovered they were EVULZ."
so its a CYA to avoid cancellation.
(or else he is just claiming that he was so stupid he wasn't aware that the RPGsite was loathed by the CTRL-leftists.)
Yesterday's Slack Wyrm seems pretty apt: https://joshuawright.net
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 05:17:51 AM
And it's only Christianity and Islam that are exceptionally unfriendly towards Jews. Sikhism, which is also a monotheistic religion, doesn't have any ill will towards Jews.
How can you even compare Christianity and Islam?
One is exceptionally unfriendly towards Jews and the other is Christianity.
Quote from: Rafael on March 30, 2022, 05:01:23 AM
Doesn't look like there's any nuance here, for now. --- If the TF provided other, additional documentation, maybe. But given that they have, so far, fully owned that Barker did the things he did, and explicitly ask their readers that these things would need to be "recognized as part of Professor Barker's past", and are even already trying to move on from the issue itself, I wouldn't be holding my breath.
It would be nice if some kind of saving grace could be found for Barker, but in the texts the public was so far provided with, they are plainly not enough - as are, at this point, any statements from Barker's inner circle, given how they had intentionally been withholding this information until called out.
- I guess, sometimes, somethings are just what they seem.
1: Or maybe there is nuance. That he just had an overinflated ego. Which according to Monard. He probably did.
2: I doubt thats going to happen and even if it did. Would anyone believe it or stop hating him now? You know they wouldnt.
It is such a tangled knot of contradictions and unknowables that the truth will likely never come out.
3: I guess sometimes somethings are not what they seem. Because we do not know now what in the book is actually Barkers work even.
X: So again it comes down to we just do not know that he did, or did not. We have evidence on one side saying yes. And on the other saying no. And everyone jumping to conclusions like good little SJW cattle instead of looking deeper. For all the incessant bitching here about how the Woke falsely accuse everyone. Look at how many here jumped headlong onto the accusation bandwagon.
z: Personal opinion is... I havent a clue anymore. The more I investigate the more ambiguous it gets. Theres every possibility now that yes it was some sort of convoluted jab at Nazis. And theres every possibility it was some sort of convoluted support of Nazis.
At first I was like. "Wait. oooh. Its SJWs making the accusations and insinuations.
Then I read the book more and more and it was looking bad.
Then it turns out the SJWs are, of course, making some stuff up. And theres corraboration Barker was not pro-Nazi.
But theres the damn book?
But then there is the chance, based on Barkers own words. The book was not accepted.
But theres the damn book?
But also from his own words and what of the book he says he wrote and what the book presents is not quite the same? But not so different that its obviously not his book. Just the new possibility that the book was altered and as noted before. Subtle elements that seem contra to the supposed Nazi agenda.
So now theres doubts because things are not matching up for either side.
Im more inclined to believe the side that isnt being deceptive. But not by much because right now there just isnt enough to tip the scales yay or nay. And its even possible he did it for an as yet totally unforeseen, but still nefarious, or benign, reason.
Quote from: Blankman on March 30, 2022, 07:45:08 AM
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM
1. I see, I was wrong about when he had his PhD. That doesn't change anything significantly - he was still university educated when he converted to Islam, which means he knew what he was converting to.
No, it changes rather a lot if you're not even a grad student vs if you have a PhD.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM2. You're simply wrong about this. It is tolerated. Louis Farrakhan is only criticised by a small portion of the right wing, his open hatred of Jews is tolerated. Linda Sarsour and Rasmea Odeh - the latter who hated Jews so much she killed them - was openly welcomed in the Women's March. You're unaware of it being tolerated because it is tolerated so much the left simply doesn't talk about it.
If it was tolerated, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And again, how you perceive things to be now (which isn't connected to roleplaying at all so I'll leave it there) is irrelevant to what was going on in 1951 when Barker converted. The Women's march happened years after Barker had died, and more than half a century after he converted to Islam. He didn't plan his conversion to Islam based on what some people were going to do more than 60 years into the future. You also stated that as a Muslim, he wouldn't need to hide his antisemitism, yet he did hide it. If he hadn't, the information in this thread wouldn't have been surprising to anyone.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM3. It's the Tekumel foundation that's being condemned for keeping it hidden more than Barker himself - obviously there isn't much point in condemning someone who's already dead.
No, Barker is absolutely being excoriated, but he is, as you say, dead. People don't get excoriated for hiding the bad beliefs of someone if whoever held the beliefs wouldn't get slammed for holding them.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM4. Polytheism is absolutely compatible with atheism - perhaps not in every variant of polytheism, but there are atheist Hindus and there are polytheist Hindus. Just as there were atheist Hellenists and polytheist Hellenists, and they live together (and lived together in the case of the Hellenists) without any friction. If you think they're incompatible, you don't understand pagan beliefs.
Atheism is the belief that no gods exist. Polytheism is the belief in many gods. You cannot be an atheist polytheist. Hinduism isn't really a religion but a term for a set of cultural beliefs shared by several different religions, but you can't actually be an adherent of a Polytheistic religion without believing in the existence of gods. You can be a spiritualist, and you can deny the existence of a creator god and believe the gods came in after the world was made, but if you don't believe in any gods, you're not a polytheist.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AMSikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, Hindus - they can all live in close proximity to each other without any problems. Muslims can't live in close proximity with other - but different - Muslims without having conflict. And Christianity used to be like that. It's not that 'all religions are like that', it's specifically Abrahamic religions that are like that. Judaism used to be like that, Christianity used to be like that, and Islam still is like that.
Huh, and I could have sworn that there was Sikh sectarian violence in India (see the Sikh-Nirankari clash) and a Sikh separatist movement in India that culminated in Operation Blue Star in the 1980s when Indira Gandhi ordered the army to attack the holiest Sikh site, the Golden Temple. Then Gandhi was assassinated by her Sikh bodyguards in revenge for this, after which followed riots and violence directed specifically against Sikhs. Huh, almost looks like religious tensions from here, but clearly those are impossible if an Abrahamic religion isn't involved.
Riddle me this: Why are the charges of nazi anti-semite and not of muslim anti-semite?
I'll tell you why, the left condenms nazis but looks the other way and/or makes excuses when it's muslims.
But enough talk of a dead man. He's just the Troyan Horse, their real target IS the fundation and their destruction, maybe to put some of them in charge.
Also, sure Tekumel where being white is seen as bad is an anti-semite/pro nazi setting... The mental gymnastics...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2022, 02:36:01 AM
But enough talk of a dead man. He's just the Troyan Horse, their real target IS the fundation and their destruction, maybe to put some of them in charge.
This isn't the everyone-I-don't-like-is-a-Nazi. We're talking about a pro-Nazi novel and a Holocaust denial journal. Which you're defending with this conspiracy theory.
Quote from: Pat on March 31, 2022, 06:24:09 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2022, 02:36:01 AM
But enough talk of a dead man. He's just the Troyan Horse, their real target IS the fundation and their destruction, maybe to put some of them in charge.
This isn't the everyone-I-don't-like-is-a-Nazi. We're talking about a pro-Nazi novel and a Holocaust denial journal. Which you're defending with this conspiracy theory.
How was Geeky defending a pro-Nazi novel and Holocaust denying journal exactly? Pretty serious claim.
I'm a path of least resistance believer when it comes to people. That path 100% supports that Barker wrote the book and sat on the board because he wanted to. That path also means that TF sat on their hands, most likely to stay out of the spotlight and preserve their business.
What I have a massive problem with is
how third parties from all different places are handling the situation. I brought up inconsistencies in what OP originally said they knew about Barker, therefore I must be a sympathizer. Another poster asks the question of, so what? Immediately, he is a cunt or a Nazi. And now Geeky questions the motives of the people going after TF, and he is defending a pro-Nazi novel and denial journal with a conspiracy theory.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 31, 2022, 07:29:37 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 31, 2022, 06:24:09 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2022, 02:36:01 AM
But enough talk of a dead man. He's just the Troyan Horse, their real target IS the fundation and their destruction, maybe to put some of them in charge.
This isn't the everyone-I-don't-like-is-a-Nazi. We're talking about a pro-Nazi novel and a Holocaust denial journal. Which you're defending with this conspiracy theory.
How was Geeky defending a pro-Nazi novel and Holocaust denying journal exactly? Pretty serious claim.
I'm a path of least resistance believer when it comes to people. That path 100% supports that Barker wrote the book and sat on the board because he wanted to. That path also means that TF sat on their hands, most likely to stay out of the spotlight and preserve their business.
What I have a massive problem with is how third parties from all different places are handling the situation. I brought up inconsistencies in what OP originally said they knew about Barker, therefore I must be a sympathizer. Another poster asks the question of, so what? Immediately, he is a cunt or a Nazi. And now Geeky questions the motives of the people going after TF, and he is defending a pro-Nazi novel and denial journal with a conspiracy theory.
What do you need explained? This is as obvious as anything can possibly be.
You're trying to play this reasonable moderate, but you're not. The evidence that Barker wrote a pro-Nazi novel and was on the editorial board of a Holocaust denial journal is very strong. It should be investigated further, but the chance anything will come up that will clear Barker is essentially nil. Omega's musings, for instance, are pure fantasy ungrounded from reality. It's also very clear, and based on their own statements, that the Tekumel Foundation hid this information. So some of us said we should obviously put the foundation on the red list.
And what the response been? A wave of outrage.
How dare you put Tekumel or Barker on the red list! It makes no sense, they're dead, and the IP is innocent! Except, that's nonsense. Nobody proposed that. All anyone suggested was putting the living and still-in-business executors of a guy who was at the very least Nazi-adjacent on a warning list. Which is the mildest form of protest. In fact, it's bizarre to even call it a protest, because it's literally just information. It's telling people "hey, before you buy this, you might want to know...". There are no staged boycotts, no public protests, no deplatforming, nobody's being shamed or driven from their jobs. Nothing.
But no, that's too much for the outrage crowd.
We must memory hole this, and not let anyone know the Nazi link, because this is all a plot by the evil SJWs, who we must oppose even if it means we have to protect Nazis!
To continue, I don't think anyone in the thread woke up one morning and said "hey, defending Nazis sounds like a great idea!". Instead, it appears to be pure partisanship. We must defeat the Enemy at any cost, even if it means defending Nazis!
Look at how much of the reaction has been specifically targeted at the Tubesock Troll, and how that's used to "prove" this is a nefarious plot by the SJWs. But why is that even the slightest bit relevant? The basic facts have been confirmed by multiple independent sources. The alignment of the person who first posted it shouldn't matter.
I've always been a political iconoclast, so I have hard time grokking the sectarian way of thinking. Which is probably why this whole thing has felt so utterly bizarre to me.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 31, 2022, 07:29:37 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 31, 2022, 06:24:09 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2022, 02:36:01 AM
But enough talk of a dead man. He's just the Troyan Horse, their real target IS the fundation and their destruction, maybe to put some of them in charge.
This isn't the everyone-I-don't-like-is-a-Nazi. We're talking about a pro-Nazi novel and a Holocaust denial journal. Which you're defending with this conspiracy theory.
How was Geeky defending a pro-Nazi novel and Holocaust denying journal exactly? Pretty serious claim.
I'm a path of least resistance believer when it comes to people. That path 100% supports that Barker wrote the book and sat on the board because he wanted to. That path also means that TF sat on their hands, most likely to stay out of the spotlight and preserve their business.
What I have a massive problem with is how third parties from all different places are handling the situation. I brought up inconsistencies in what OP originally said they knew about Barker, therefore I must be a sympathizer. Another poster asks the question of, so what? Immediately, he is a cunt or a Nazi. And now Geeky questions the motives of the people going after TF, and he is defending a pro-Nazi novel and denial journal with a conspiracy theory.
Agreed and seconded
If you notice most posters like myself are simply not engaging in the conversation anymore. One way or the other it's going to be twisted into a carefully constructed personal narrative, any anything and everything that goes against said narrative is to be summarily ignored. So why bother at this point.
Quote from: Pat on March 31, 2022, 08:04:10 AM
To continue, I don't think anyone in the thread woke up one morning and said "hey, defending Nazis sounds like a great idea!". Instead, it appears to be pure partisanship. We must defeat the Enemy at any cost, even if it means defending Nazis!
Look at how much of the reaction has been specifically targeted at the Tubesock Troll, and how that's used to "prove" this is a nefarious plot by the SJWs. But why is that even the slightest bit relevant? The basic facts have been confirmed by multiple independent sources. The alignment of the person who first posted it shouldn't matter.
I've always been a political iconoclast, so I have hard time grokking the sectarian way of thinking. Which is probably why this whole thing has felt so utterly bizarre to me.
From what you have said so far, Pat, it sounds like me and you are in full alignment on Barker and TF.
Where we do not share full alignment is having questions, taking a wait and see approach, or doubting the motives of people who want to
occupy Tekumel is a direct (or dotted) line to the defense of pro-Nazi propaganda. Geeky's claim, true or not, that TF is the real target to perhaps allow others to take over the IP is in no way a defense of Barker or pro-Nazi propaganda.
And the personal painting of me
playing the moderate card in your previous post is a ridiculous attack meant to isolate me as soft or indecisive, of which, I am neither. My position in this thread has been clear.
Quote from: Abraxus on March 31, 2022, 08:20:55 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 31, 2022, 07:29:37 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 31, 2022, 06:24:09 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2022, 02:36:01 AM
But enough talk of a dead man. He's just the Troyan Horse, their real target IS the fundation and their destruction, maybe to put some of them in charge.
This isn't the everyone-I-don't-like-is-a-Nazi. We're talking about a pro-Nazi novel and a Holocaust denial journal. Which you're defending with this conspiracy theory.
How was Geeky defending a pro-Nazi novel and Holocaust denying journal exactly? Pretty serious claim.
I'm a path of least resistance believer when it comes to people. That path 100% supports that Barker wrote the book and sat on the board because he wanted to. That path also means that TF sat on their hands, most likely to stay out of the spotlight and preserve their business.
What I have a massive problem with is how third parties from all different places are handling the situation. I brought up inconsistencies in what OP originally said they knew about Barker, therefore I must be a sympathizer. Another poster asks the question of, so what? Immediately, he is a cunt or a Nazi. And now Geeky questions the motives of the people going after TF, and he is defending a pro-Nazi novel and denial journal with a conspiracy theory.
Agreed and seconded
If you notice most posters like myself are simply not engaging in the conversation anymore. One way or the other it's going to be twisted into a carefully constructed personal narrative, any anything and everything that goes against said narrative is to be summarily ignored. So why bother at this point.
Good point. I've said my peace on this topic.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2022, 02:36:01 AM
Riddle me this: Why are the charges of nazi anti-semite and not of muslim anti-semite?
Because he wrote a novel about neo-nazis taking over the world, had it published by a neo-nazi publisher and served on the editorial committee of a neo-nazi journal. That's why.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2022, 02:36:01 AMI'll tell you why, the left condenms nazis but looks the other way and/or makes excuses when it's muslims.
No, it's because of all the nazi connections.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2022, 02:36:01 AMBut enough talk of a dead man. He's just the Troyan Horse, their real target IS the fundation and their destruction, maybe to put some of them in charge.
Also, sure Tekumel where being white is seen as bad is an anti-semite/pro nazi setting... The mental gymnastics...
Not everything that happens is a result of some leftist woke conspiracy. Sometimes a nazi is just a nazi.
Quote from: Blankman on March 30, 2022, 07:45:08 AM
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM
1. I see, I was wrong about when he had his PhD. That doesn't change anything significantly - he was still university educated when he converted to Islam, which means he knew what he was converting to.
No, it changes rather a lot if you're not even a grad student vs if you have a PhD.
If you're in college or university it means you know how to read, and it means you will read something. He didn't convert to Islam with no knowledge of the Quran's contents. He read it, saw the hate in it, and thought it was OK, and then converted.
Quote
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM2. You're simply wrong about this. It is tolerated. Louis Farrakhan is only criticised by a small portion of the right wing, his open hatred of Jews is tolerated. Linda Sarsour and Rasmea Odeh - the latter who hated Jews so much she killed them - was openly welcomed in the Women's March. You're unaware of it being tolerated because it is tolerated so much the left simply doesn't talk about it.
If it was tolerated, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Look at where we're having this conversation. See if it's being discussed in any mainstream venue.
Quote
And again, how you perceive things to be now (which isn't connected to roleplaying at all so I'll leave it there) is irrelevant to what was going on in 1951 when Barker converted. The Women's march happened years after Barker had died, and more than half a century after he converted to Islam. He didn't plan his conversion to Islam based on what some people were going to do more than 60 years into the future. You also stated that as a Muslim, he wouldn't need to hide his antisemitism, yet he did hide it. If he hadn't, the information in this thread wouldn't have been surprising to anyone.
It isn't about what happened 60 years into the future, it's what has been happening for over a millennium into the past before he converted. The Women's march is proof that Muslim hatred of Jews is tolerated. You can kill Jews, and the mainstream doesn't bat an eye as long as you're Muslim. That's what the tolerance is like now, and there hasn't been a time when you couldn't just do that. It was being tolerated before modern Israel was a state.
Quote
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM4. Polytheism is absolutely compatible with atheism - perhaps not in every variant of polytheism, but there are atheist Hindus and there are polytheist Hindus. Just as there were atheist Hellenists and polytheist Hellenists, and they live together (and lived together in the case of the Hellenists) without any friction. If you think they're incompatible, you don't understand pagan beliefs.
Atheism is the belief that no gods exist. Polytheism is the belief in many gods. You cannot be an atheist polytheist. Hinduism isn't really a religion but a term for a set of cultural beliefs shared by several different religions, but you can't actually be an adherent of a Polytheistic religion without believing in the existence of gods. You can be a spiritualist, and you can deny the existence of a creator god and believe the gods came in after the world was made, but if you don't believe in any gods, you're not a polytheist.
You can believe in gods one year, and not believe in them the next. Hindus don't make a big deal of whether you believe or not. Christians do (with the exception of some minority sects like Unitarian Universalists). This obsession with whether you believe in a god at all is characteristic of the Abrahamic religions. The others don't, which is why you can be both atheist and polytheist, because your status in the community doesn't change as your personal beliefs change.
Quote
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AMSikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, Hindus - they can all live in close proximity to each other without any problems. Muslims can't live in close proximity with other - but different - Muslims without having conflict. And Christianity used to be like that. It's not that 'all religions are like that', it's specifically Abrahamic religions that are like that. Judaism used to be like that, Christianity used to be like that, and Islam still is like that.
Huh, and I could have sworn that there was Sikh sectarian violence in India (see the Sikh-Nirankari clash) and a Sikh separatist movement in India that culminated in Operation Blue Star in the 1980s when Indira Gandhi ordered the army to attack the holiest Sikh site, the Golden Temple. Then Gandhi was assassinated by her Sikh bodyguards in revenge for this, after which followed riots and violence directed specifically against Sikhs. Huh, almost looks like religious tensions from here, but clearly those are impossible if an Abrahamic religion isn't involved.
How many examples do you think you can bring up of that? You know how easy it will for me to find 10 examples for every one you provide with Abrahamic religions. With non-Abrahamic religions it can be said to be an isolated incident. With Abrahamic religions it's not isolated. With Islam all the time now, with Christianity and Islam all the time in the past, and Judaism plenty too if you go back far enough.
Quote from: migo on March 31, 2022, 01:19:55 PM
Quote from: Blankman on March 30, 2022, 07:45:08 AM
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM
1. I see, I was wrong about when he had his PhD. That doesn't change anything significantly - he was still university educated when he converted to Islam, which means he knew what he was converting to.
No, it changes rather a lot if you're not even a grad student vs if you have a PhD.
If you're in college or university it means you know how to read, and it means you will read something. He didn't convert to Islam with no knowledge of the Quran's contents. He read it, saw the hate in it, and thought it was OK, and then converted.
... ok, go to a college campus and do a survey of how many people have actually read the Koran. Shit, do a survey on how many have read the Bible (especially the parts in the Old Testament with really heinous and hateful stuff in it).
Quote from: migo on March 31, 2022, 01:19:55 PM
Quote
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM2. You're simply wrong about this. It is tolerated. Louis Farrakhan is only criticised by a small portion of the right wing, his open hatred of Jews is tolerated. Linda Sarsour and Rasmea Odeh - the latter who hated Jews so much she killed them - was openly welcomed in the Women's March. You're unaware of it being tolerated because it is tolerated so much the left simply doesn't talk about it.
If it was tolerated, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Look at where we're having this conversation. See if it's being discussed in any mainstream venue.
I haven't seen this not being discussed anywhere anyone talks about rpgs online. You think this discussion is being silenced? What the hell are you talking about? How delusional are you?
Quote from: migo on March 31, 2022, 01:19:55 PMQuote
And again, how you perceive things to be now (which isn't connected to roleplaying at all so I'll leave it there) is irrelevant to what was going on in 1951 when Barker converted. The Women's march happened years after Barker had died, and more than half a century after he converted to Islam. He didn't plan his conversion to Islam based on what some people were going to do more than 60 years into the future. You also stated that as a Muslim, he wouldn't need to hide his antisemitism, yet he did hide it. If he hadn't, the information in this thread wouldn't have been surprising to anyone.
It isn't about what happened 60 years into the future, it's what has been happening for over a millennium into the past before he converted. The Women's march is proof that Muslim hatred of Jews is tolerated. You can kill Jews, and the mainstream doesn't bat an eye as long as you're Muslim. That's what the tolerance is like now, and there hasn't been a time when you couldn't just do that. It was being tolerated before modern Israel was a state.
The Women's March is again something that happened in the past few years, what does it have to do with the past millenium, or even 70 years ago? Before modern Israel was a state, there was this thing called the holocaust, and before that there were all kinds of pogroms against Jews, off an on for hundreds of years. You're completely unhinged here.
Quote from: migo on March 31, 2022, 01:19:55 PMQuote
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM4. Polytheism is absolutely compatible with atheism - perhaps not in every variant of polytheism, but there are atheist Hindus and there are polytheist Hindus. Just as there were atheist Hellenists and polytheist Hellenists, and they live together (and lived together in the case of the Hellenists) without any friction. If you think they're incompatible, you don't understand pagan beliefs.
Atheism is the belief that no gods exist. Polytheism is the belief in many gods. You cannot be an atheist polytheist. Hinduism isn't really a religion but a term for a set of cultural beliefs shared by several different religions, but you can't actually be an adherent of a Polytheistic religion without believing in the existence of gods. You can be a spiritualist, and you can deny the existence of a creator god and believe the gods came in after the world was made, but if you don't believe in any gods, you're not a polytheist.
You can believe in gods one year, and not believe in them the next. Hindus don't make a big deal of whether you believe or not. Christians do (with the exception of some minority sects like Unitarian Universalists). This obsession with whether you believe in a god at all is characteristic of the Abrahamic religions. The others don't, which is why you can be both atheist and polytheist, because your status in the community doesn't change as your personal beliefs change.
Your status in the community is completely different to whether or not you're a believer. No one cares if you're Christian or not in Sweden, that doesn't mean there are atheist Christians, it just means no one gives a shit.
Quote from: migo on March 31, 2022, 01:19:55 PMQuote
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AMSikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, Hindus - they can all live in close proximity to each other without any problems. Muslims can't live in close proximity with other - but different - Muslims without having conflict. And Christianity used to be like that. It's not that 'all religions are like that', it's specifically Abrahamic religions that are like that. Judaism used to be like that, Christianity used to be like that, and Islam still is like that.
Huh, and I could have sworn that there was Sikh sectarian violence in India (see the Sikh-Nirankari clash) and a Sikh separatist movement in India that culminated in Operation Blue Star in the 1980s when Indira Gandhi ordered the army to attack the holiest Sikh site, the Golden Temple. Then Gandhi was assassinated by her Sikh bodyguards in revenge for this, after which followed riots and violence directed specifically against Sikhs. Huh, almost looks like religious tensions from here, but clearly those are impossible if an Abrahamic religion isn't involved.
How many examples do you think you can bring up of that? You know how easy it will for me to find 10 examples for every one you provide with Abrahamic religions. With non-Abrahamic religions it can be said to be an isolated incident. With Abrahamic religions it's not isolated. With Islam all the time now, with Christianity and Islam all the time in the past, and Judaism plenty too if you go back far enough.
I don't live in India, so it will be harder for me just on that score, but yes, it will be easier to dig up examples of religious intolerance when it involves either of the two biggest religions on the planet, that's only natural. There's over 2 billion Christians, there's close to 2 billion Muslims, there's 26 million Sikhs. That's two orders of magnitude.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 31, 2022, 11:12:10 AM
Quote from: Pat on March 31, 2022, 08:04:10 AM
To continue, I don't think anyone in the thread woke up one morning and said "hey, defending Nazis sounds like a great idea!". Instead, it appears to be pure partisanship. We must defeat the Enemy at any cost, even if it means defending Nazis!
Look at how much of the reaction has been specifically targeted at the Tubesock Troll, and how that's used to "prove" this is a nefarious plot by the SJWs. But why is that even the slightest bit relevant? The basic facts have been confirmed by multiple independent sources. The alignment of the person who first posted it shouldn't matter.
I've always been a political iconoclast, so I have hard time grokking the sectarian way of thinking. Which is probably why this whole thing has felt so utterly bizarre to me.
From what you have said so far, Pat, it sounds like me and you are in full alignment on Barker and TF.
Where we do not share full alignment is having questions, taking a wait and see approach, or doubting the motives of people who want to occupy Tekumel is a direct (or dotted) line to the defense of pro-Nazi propaganda. Geeky's claim, true or not, that TF is the real target to perhaps allow others to take over the IP is in no way a defense of Barker or pro-Nazi propaganda.
And the personal painting of me playing the moderate card in your previous post is a ridiculous attack meant to isolate me as soft or indecisive, of which, I am neither. My position in this thread has been clear.
I don't think we disagree significantly on the details about Barker. I also don't think we disagree at all in having questions. I explicitly said I think it bears more investigation in that very post, after all. And I've repeatedly said something similar.
Where we do disagree is further out, toward the "wait and see approach" you mentioned. Because the evidence at this point is basically indisputable. We can certainly add more detail and context, but there's essentially no chance anything could come up that would clear Barker, or the Tekumel Foundation of not coming forward with the information.
Yet we have a thread full of people attacking people for saying the Tekumel Foundation should be put on the red list. Often combined with virulent, emotional attacks, and often involving accusations of being SJWs, or at the very least claiming this is all a plot by the SJWs to destroy Tekumel. And you're defending that position. That's why I said you were falsely positioning yourself as a moderate. I wasn't calling you soft, but if you want to call yourself indecisive I'm fine with that. But being indecisive about whether gravity works isn't the moderate position, and neither is this. Sure, we want to know more about gravity, and what we learn might change out mind about a few specific details. But the moderate position is gravity works, and it's completely irrelevant who started the thread.
Quote from: Blankman on March 31, 2022, 12:15:30 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2022, 02:36:01 AMBut enough talk of a dead man. He's just the Troyan Horse, their real target IS the fundation and their destruction, maybe to put some of them in charge.
Also, sure Tekumel where being white is seen as bad is an anti-semite/pro nazi setting... The mental gymnastics...
Not everything that happens is a result of some leftist woke conspiracy. Sometimes a nazi is just a nazi.
Agreed. And even if the leftists jump on it, it still doesn't change the facts.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2022, 02:36:01 AM
Quote from: Blankman on March 30, 2022, 07:45:08 AM
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM
1. I see, I was wrong about when he had his PhD. That doesn't change anything significantly - he was still university educated when he converted to Islam, which means he knew what he was converting to.
No, it changes rather a lot if you're not even a grad student vs if you have a PhD.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM2. You're simply wrong about this. It is tolerated. Louis Farrakhan is only criticised by a small portion of the right wing, his open hatred of Jews is tolerated. Linda Sarsour and Rasmea Odeh - the latter who hated Jews so much she killed them - was openly welcomed in the Women's March. You're unaware of it being tolerated because it is tolerated so much the left simply doesn't talk about it.
If it was tolerated, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And again, how you perceive things to be now (which isn't connected to roleplaying at all so I'll leave it there) is irrelevant to what was going on in 1951 when Barker converted. The Women's march happened years after Barker had died, and more than half a century after he converted to Islam. He didn't plan his conversion to Islam based on what some people were going to do more than 60 years into the future. You also stated that as a Muslim, he wouldn't need to hide his antisemitism, yet he did hide it. If he hadn't, the information in this thread wouldn't have been surprising to anyone.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM3. It's the Tekumel foundation that's being condemned for keeping it hidden more than Barker himself - obviously there isn't much point in condemning someone who's already dead.
No, Barker is absolutely being excoriated, but he is, as you say, dead. People don't get excoriated for hiding the bad beliefs of someone if whoever held the beliefs wouldn't get slammed for holding them.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM4. Polytheism is absolutely compatible with atheism - perhaps not in every variant of polytheism, but there are atheist Hindus and there are polytheist Hindus. Just as there were atheist Hellenists and polytheist Hellenists, and they live together (and lived together in the case of the Hellenists) without any friction. If you think they're incompatible, you don't understand pagan beliefs.
Atheism is the belief that no gods exist. Polytheism is the belief in many gods. You cannot be an atheist polytheist. Hinduism isn't really a religion but a term for a set of cultural beliefs shared by several different religions, but you can't actually be an adherent of a Polytheistic religion without believing in the existence of gods. You can be a spiritualist, and you can deny the existence of a creator god and believe the gods came in after the world was made, but if you don't believe in any gods, you're not a polytheist.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AMSikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, Hindus - they can all live in close proximity to each other without any problems. Muslims can't live in close proximity with other - but different - Muslims without having conflict. And Christianity used to be like that. It's not that 'all religions are like that', it's specifically Abrahamic religions that are like that. Judaism used to be like that, Christianity used to be like that, and Islam still is like that.
Huh, and I could have sworn that there was Sikh sectarian violence in India (see the Sikh-Nirankari clash) and a Sikh separatist movement in India that culminated in Operation Blue Star in the 1980s when Indira Gandhi ordered the army to attack the holiest Sikh site, the Golden Temple. Then Gandhi was assassinated by her Sikh bodyguards in revenge for this, after which followed riots and violence directed specifically against Sikhs. Huh, almost looks like religious tensions from here, but clearly those are impossible if an Abrahamic religion isn't involved.
Riddle me this: Why are the charges of nazi anti-semite and not of muslim anti-semite?
Because he was writing for a Neo-Nazi anti-semitic publisher and was a board member of a neo-Nazi anti-semitic holocaust denial magazine.
And not, as far as we know, writing for an anti-semitic muslim publisher.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 31, 2022, 07:55:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2022, 02:36:01 AM
Quote from: Blankman on March 30, 2022, 07:45:08 AM
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM
1. I see, I was wrong about when he had his PhD. That doesn't change anything significantly - he was still university educated when he converted to Islam, which means he knew what he was converting to.
No, it changes rather a lot if you're not even a grad student vs if you have a PhD.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM2. You're simply wrong about this. It is tolerated. Louis Farrakhan is only criticised by a small portion of the right wing, his open hatred of Jews is tolerated. Linda Sarsour and Rasmea Odeh - the latter who hated Jews so much she killed them - was openly welcomed in the Women's March. You're unaware of it being tolerated because it is tolerated so much the left simply doesn't talk about it.
If it was tolerated, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And again, how you perceive things to be now (which isn't connected to roleplaying at all so I'll leave it there) is irrelevant to what was going on in 1951 when Barker converted. The Women's march happened years after Barker had died, and more than half a century after he converted to Islam. He didn't plan his conversion to Islam based on what some people were going to do more than 60 years into the future. You also stated that as a Muslim, he wouldn't need to hide his antisemitism, yet he did hide it. If he hadn't, the information in this thread wouldn't have been surprising to anyone.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM3. It's the Tekumel foundation that's being condemned for keeping it hidden more than Barker himself - obviously there isn't much point in condemning someone who's already dead.
No, Barker is absolutely being excoriated, but he is, as you say, dead. People don't get excoriated for hiding the bad beliefs of someone if whoever held the beliefs wouldn't get slammed for holding them.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM4. Polytheism is absolutely compatible with atheism - perhaps not in every variant of polytheism, but there are atheist Hindus and there are polytheist Hindus. Just as there were atheist Hellenists and polytheist Hellenists, and they live together (and lived together in the case of the Hellenists) without any friction. If you think they're incompatible, you don't understand pagan beliefs.
Atheism is the belief that no gods exist. Polytheism is the belief in many gods. You cannot be an atheist polytheist. Hinduism isn't really a religion but a term for a set of cultural beliefs shared by several different religions, but you can't actually be an adherent of a Polytheistic religion without believing in the existence of gods. You can be a spiritualist, and you can deny the existence of a creator god and believe the gods came in after the world was made, but if you don't believe in any gods, you're not a polytheist.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AMSikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, Hindus - they can all live in close proximity to each other without any problems. Muslims can't live in close proximity with other - but different - Muslims without having conflict. And Christianity used to be like that. It's not that 'all religions are like that', it's specifically Abrahamic religions that are like that. Judaism used to be like that, Christianity used to be like that, and Islam still is like that.
Huh, and I could have sworn that there was Sikh sectarian violence in India (see the Sikh-Nirankari clash) and a Sikh separatist movement in India that culminated in Operation Blue Star in the 1980s when Indira Gandhi ordered the army to attack the holiest Sikh site, the Golden Temple. Then Gandhi was assassinated by her Sikh bodyguards in revenge for this, after which followed riots and violence directed specifically against Sikhs. Huh, almost looks like religious tensions from here, but clearly those are impossible if an Abrahamic religion isn't involved.
Riddle me this: Why are the charges of nazi anti-semite and not of muslim anti-semite?
Because he was writing for a Neo-Nazi anti-semitic publisher and was a board member of a neo-Nazi anti-semitic holocaust denial magazine.
And not, as far as we know, writing for an anti-semitic muslim publisher.
So, him being a muslim had nothing to do with it.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2022, 08:16:46 PM
So, him being a muslim had nothing to do with it.
Geekybugle, you cant just go around throwing accusations that Muslims are anti-semetic when not all Muslims want to do that.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 31, 2022, 07:55:44 PM
Because he was writing for a Neo-Nazi anti-semitic publisher
and was a board member of a neo-Nazi anti-semitic holocaust denial magazine.
And not, as far as we know, writing for an anti-semitic muslim publisher.
1: False: By Barkers own statement to a non-nazi publisher... he just wrote the book. Then sent it off to various publishers. The why of it remains unknown. And again. Also by Barkers statement the book was not accepted by neo-Nazi publishers. Which might suggest the original book had something in it that they all did not like. Which suggests that it might have been a jab at them somehow. Assuming all that is true then we come back to the possibility the publisher altered and published the book without Barker knowing.
2: Which, as has been pointed out by others, could be for reasons other than support. Research, watchdog, etc. But that works only if Barker intended the book as some sort of jab at neo-nazis.
3: See my observations earlier in the thread. The book is oddly non-anti-semetic. The chapters I have read the characters do not so much deny the holocost as they downplay it. They might have done so in a part I had not gotten too. But I was a 4th of the way through and did not see anything that stood out. Again. Its weird the lack of the expected elements. What the book and Barkers statement do is make Israel the main antagonist. Though Barkers stated reason differs from the books.
x: So we come back to things that do not match up in one form or another. And without more information it could go either way. And the more the woke lie the more people are going to resist, or fight back against, a one-sided accusation. Especially when there are discrepancies in the narrative.
Quote from: Omega on April 01, 2022, 12:48:19 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 31, 2022, 07:55:44 PM
Because he was writing for a Neo-Nazi anti-semitic publisher
and was a board member of a neo-Nazi anti-semitic holocaust denial magazine.
And not, as far as we know, writing for an anti-semitic muslim publisher.
1: False: By Barkers own statement to a non-nazi publisher... he just wrote the book. Then sent it off to various publishers. The why of it remains unknown. And again. Also by Barkers statement the book was not accepted by neo-Nazi publishers. Which might suggest the original book had something in it that they all did not like. Which suggests that it might have been a jab at them somehow. Assuming all that is true then we come back to the possibility the publisher altered and published the book without Barker knowing.
2: Which, as has been pointed out by others, could be for reasons other than support. Research, watchdog, etc. But that works only if Barker intended the book as some sort of jab at neo-nazis.
3: See my observations earlier in the thread. The book is oddly non-anti-semetic. The chapters I have read the characters do not so much deny the holocost as they downplay it. They might have done so in a part I had not gotten too. But I was a 4th of the way through and did not see anything that stood out. Again. Its weird the lack of the expected elements. What the book and Barkers statement do is make Israel the main antagonist. Though Barkers stated reason differs from the books.
x: So we come back to things that do not match up in one form or another. And without more information it could go either way. And the more the woke lie the more people are going to resist, or fight back against, a one-sided accusation. Especially when there are discrepancies in the narrative.
This isn't accurate. Barker stated, in a letter, that "I cannot even sell it to the Neo-Nazi presses here; they would not accept the idea of an Indian girl marrying the hero." That does not indicate he tried, that indicates he thought the idea of them accepting it was doomed. Why he thought that is also clearly laid out, it's not some subtle jab at nazis, it's the hero marrying an indian girl. He doesn't in fact mention sending it off to any publishers, he just says he doesn't think anyone could publish it. Turns out he was wrong about the neo-nazi press.
Quote from: Blankman on April 01, 2022, 03:54:45 AM
Quote from: Omega on April 01, 2022, 12:48:19 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 31, 2022, 07:55:44 PM
Because he was writing for a Neo-Nazi anti-semitic publisher
and was a board member of a neo-Nazi anti-semitic holocaust denial magazine.
And not, as far as we know, writing for an anti-semitic muslim publisher.
1: False: By Barkers own statement to a non-nazi publisher... he just wrote the book. Then sent it off to various publishers. The why of it remains unknown. And again. Also by Barkers statement the book was not accepted by neo-Nazi publishers. Which might suggest the original book had something in it that they all did not like. Which suggests that it might have been a jab at them somehow. Assuming all that is true then we come back to the possibility the publisher altered and published the book without Barker knowing.
2: Which, as has been pointed out by others, could be for reasons other than support. Research, watchdog, etc. But that works only if Barker intended the book as some sort of jab at neo-nazis.
3: See my observations earlier in the thread. The book is oddly non-anti-semetic. The chapters I have read the characters do not so much deny the holocost as they downplay it. They might have done so in a part I had not gotten too. But I was a 4th of the way through and did not see anything that stood out. Again. Its weird the lack of the expected elements. What the book and Barkers statement do is make Israel the main antagonist. Though Barkers stated reason differs from the books.
x: So we come back to things that do not match up in one form or another. And without more information it could go either way. And the more the woke lie the more people are going to resist, or fight back against, a one-sided accusation. Especially when there are discrepancies in the narrative.
This isn't accurate. Barker stated, in a letter, that "I cannot even sell it to the Neo-Nazi presses here; they would not accept the idea of an Indian girl marrying the hero." That does not indicate he tried, that indicates he thought the idea of them accepting it was doomed. Why he thought that is also clearly laid out, it's not some subtle jab at nazis, it's the hero marrying an indian girl. He doesn't in fact mention sending it off to any publishers, he just says he doesn't think anyone could publish it. Turns out he was wrong about the neo-nazi press.
Yeah, Omega, this just isn't accurate. You keep going back to that statement from Dave Morris' blog, and it's just not what you seem to think it is: Read it aloud, in a speaking voice; it just sounds as if Barker was batshit insane. I agree with you that the whole matter would do well with some additional context, and there's a TON of open questions - but it's to the TF to provide the answers, not to us. Given that they've already made their statement, and given that they are, for better or worse, supposed to be the biggest Barker experts in the world, I'm inclined to take that statement at face value. Like, it's in their best interest to defend Barker; if they don't, why should anyone else?
I'm surely as offended as you are, and I have to really take care not to say something tasteless about the antics we're seeing from some of the "professional hobbyists" and grifters as they do their usual "mistakes were made, but not by me" routines. But the matter itself seems not to be overly complex: Barker wrote the novel, Barker was okay with the novel as it was released - or at least, we have no specific indication to believe he wasn't. (As in, there are no known statements from him on the matter AFTER publication.) And, of course, Barker remained an active anti-Semite afterwards, through his connection with the magazine. However exactly we label him, the evidence quite simply indicates that he was a total cunt.
Whatever the consequences of all this might be on a larger scale, I'm not precisely feeling the itch to play in a Tekumel game, right now. Does anyone, really? - Don't think that's going to change any time soon. Maybe that will change again if the TF indeed does their "due diligence". But if it doesn't, then, well - then there will be other games to play.
Hence why I say we just do not have enough information to say either way. Read it one way and he did it deliberately. Read it the other and he did it as a gag.
Problem is that if it is a gag. Its a rather tasteless one unless the original book was somehow far different in tone.
Problem is that if it is serious then its a rather bland example unless the original was somehow different in tone.
I keep coming back to the first point as a problem for me that Barker was seriously considering sending it off to neo-nazis at all. And then DID! It just feels so completely crack-headed a stunt to pull for some sort of joke. And that he sat on the publication board at all. If he was researching then surely he did not need to be on the board to do that? Unless I am missing some quirk of academia access?
Another thing that bugs me is the timeline for all this. The publisher did not exist till the early 2000s. When did Barker actually write the book and how long was he submitting it to various publishers good and bad?
But if he was a neo-nazi then why was he concerned about sending the book to a Jewish publisher he knew? Why not fuck with them and submit it?
Thus why I say if you follow one path it leads to Barker being up to no good. And if you follow the other its some sort of joke. And there is information that contradicts one or the other or both. And the more you dig the stranger it gets. And not in a good way. Every time I did deeper the pendulum swings anew.
Mr Barker. Would you please stop pushing the damn pendulum back to "GUILTY"?
Quote4. Polytheism is absolutely compatible with atheism - perhaps not in every variant of polytheism, but there are atheist Hindus and there are polytheist Hindus. Just as there were atheist Hellenists and polytheist Hellenists, and they live together (and lived together in the case of the Hellenists) without any friction. If you think they're incompatible, you don't understand pagan beliefs.
There are also monotheistic Hindu and it's not forced by islam. Hinduism is just well not really a religion but great mesh of various sects, philosophies, interpretations linked by common cultural heritage. Basically take any metaphysical theory - monotheism, politheism, atheism, deism, pantheism, pandeism - there are hinduists for that. I even heard that philosophically speaking there will be more monotheists than polytheists (no wonder considering whole concept of Brahman for instance). Diversity is much greater than between Abrahamic religions, and if treated simmilarily as Western religions you'd probably have to divide H. into like 200 separate religions - but well neither Westerners get it, nor Hindu care as their perspective and divisions are quite different.
QuoteSikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, Hindus - they can all live in close proximity to each other without any problems. Muslims can't live in close proximity with other - but different - Muslims without having conflict. And Christianity used to be like that. It's not that 'all religions are like that', it's specifically Abrahamic religions that are like that. Judaism used to be like that, Christianity used to be like that, and Islam still is like that.
That's gross overestimation. Muslims historically speaking commonly lived among other religions, and there were different frictions as always are. But general stance when Muslim dominated, were higher taxes for non-Muslims, so hardly drastic measure. Malaysians seems to live quite peacefully generally speaking. (And of course it's easily noted that Muslim umma was quite warlike but for most time those were not Shia-Sunni wars, but wars between various groups of same sect for... political power.)
On the other hand Hindu bigotry in India is rising with nationalist party in power and attacks against Abrahamic religions in certain states.
And historically those religions that do not fall into wide umbrella of Hinduism - that is buddhism, sikhism and jainism were persecuted by majority. And then of course buddhists persecuted others when they get to power.
Now of course dharmic religions are less spread overall, but they were totally willing to persecute in history. I'd say they are generally closer to Abrahamic religions than paganism, because they embrace higher philosophies and universalism. And it's universalism that breed conflict. Old school pagans did not cared about foreign gods. It goes totally different when you believe your religion is universal.
QuoteHow the fuck can someone be an "atheist polytheist"? Unless you're doing some weird thing where you're conflating the religion and the culture around it, which still doesn't make any sense.
There is no The God - as absolute Being constituting whole reality. However there are "gods", very powerful beings that need to be appease, however they are not philosophically theos.
Quite foreign to European Christian vision, but theoretically possible.
QuoteHow many examples do you think you can bring up of that? You know how easy it will for me to find 10 examples for every one you provide with Abrahamic religions. With non-Abrahamic religions it can be said to be an isolated incident. With Abrahamic religions it's not isolated.
Neither it was with dharmic religions. There were constant turmoil in India and Indochina about them.
Later Abrahamics moved to region and turmoil doubled - and it was quite often dharmics who were aggresive in this dealing.
China will be certain difference (but also to certain point) because when it evolved to buerocratic empire, the religions were controled to be not troublesome, all of them generally. That's the secret of co-existence of religions there - basically fascism :P
Quote from: Omega on April 01, 2022, 09:46:23 PM
Hence why I say we just do not have enough information to say either way. Read it one way and he did it deliberately. Read it the other and he did it as a gag.
Problem is that if it is a gag. Its a rather tasteless one unless the original book was somehow far different in tone.
Problem is that if it is serious then its a rather bland example unless the original was somehow different in tone.
I keep coming back to the first point as a problem for me that Barker was seriously considering sending it off to neo-nazis at all. And then DID! It just feels so completely crack-headed a stunt to pull for some sort of joke. And that he sat on the publication board at all. If he was researching then surely he did not need to be on the board to do that? Unless I am missing some quirk of academia access?
Another thing that bugs me is the timeline for all this. The publisher did not exist till the early 2000s. When did Barker actually write the book and how long was he submitting it to various publishers good and bad?
But if he was a neo-nazi then why was he concerned about sending the book to a Jewish publisher he knew? Why not fuck with them and submit it?
Thus why I say if you follow one path it leads to Barker being up to no good. And if you follow the other its some sort of joke. And there is information that contradicts one or the other or both. And the more you dig the stranger it gets. And not in a good way. Every time I did deeper the pendulum swings anew.
Mr Barker. Would you please stop pushing the damn pendulum back to "GUILTY"?
What are you talking about? The National Alliance has been around since the 70s, it's the same outfit that published The Turner Diaries (not surprising, since it was led by the guy who wrote that book) and Serpent's Walk was published in 1991. Where are you getting this weird and wrong information about this?
Quote from: Blankman on April 02, 2022, 01:49:48 AM
What are you talking about? The National Alliance has been around since the 70s, it's the same outfit that published The Turner Diaries (not surprising, since it was led by the guy who wrote that book) and Serpent's Walk was published in 1991. Where are you getting this weird and wrong information about this?
er? The publisher is National Vanguard? Not Alliance?
Aaaand... You may be right here. WTF?
I looked up Vanguard and it said it was funded in the 2000s. But the book says it was published in 91. I really should have remembered that. (but am dealing with a family emergency on the side). The one I looked up stated it was founded in 2005, and is a publishing house and is a supremacist group.
QuoteFormed in 2005 by longtime activist Kevin Strom, National Vanguard was a breakaway group from the neo-Nazi National Alliance.
Guess Vanguard existed prior and only became a fully separate entity later?
Well aside from the timeline the other points still stand.
Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2022, 04:23:36 AM
Quote from: Blankman on April 02, 2022, 01:49:48 AM
What are you talking about? The National Alliance has been around since the 70s, it's the same outfit that published The Turner Diaries (not surprising, since it was led by the guy who wrote that book) and Serpent's Walk was published in 1991. Where are you getting this weird and wrong information about this?
er? The publisher is National Vanguard? Not Alliance?
Aaaand... You may be right here. WTF?
I looked up Vanguard and it said it was funded in the 2000s. But the book says it was published in 91. I really should have remembered that. (but am dealing with a family emergency on the side). The one I looked up stated it was founded in 2005, and is a publishing house and is a supremacist group.
QuoteFormed in 2005 by longtime activist Kevin Strom, National Vanguard was a breakaway group from the neo-Nazi National Alliance.
Guess Vanguard existed prior and only became a fully separate entity later?
Well aside from the timeline the other points still stand.
As you can see, Vanguard was a breakaway group from National Alliance, formed after a rift in the movement (similar to how communist groups tend to splinter) and all I can see is that National Alliance was the publisher.
And no, the other points don't stand. I haven't seen anything concrete about anything in your posts. Where have you seen anything hinting at it being some sort of gag? That's nowhere in the letter you've referred to. Is any of this based on anything solid, or is it just baseless speculation that could be thrown up around anything ever?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2022, 08:16:46 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 31, 2022, 07:55:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2022, 02:36:01 AM
Quote from: Blankman on March 30, 2022, 07:45:08 AM
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM
1. I see, I was wrong about when he had his PhD. That doesn't change anything significantly - he was still university educated when he converted to Islam, which means he knew what he was converting to.
No, it changes rather a lot if you're not even a grad student vs if you have a PhD.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM2. You're simply wrong about this. It is tolerated. Louis Farrakhan is only criticised by a small portion of the right wing, his open hatred of Jews is tolerated. Linda Sarsour and Rasmea Odeh - the latter who hated Jews so much she killed them - was openly welcomed in the Women's March. You're unaware of it being tolerated because it is tolerated so much the left simply doesn't talk about it.
If it was tolerated, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And again, how you perceive things to be now (which isn't connected to roleplaying at all so I'll leave it there) is irrelevant to what was going on in 1951 when Barker converted. The Women's march happened years after Barker had died, and more than half a century after he converted to Islam. He didn't plan his conversion to Islam based on what some people were going to do more than 60 years into the future. You also stated that as a Muslim, he wouldn't need to hide his antisemitism, yet he did hide it. If he hadn't, the information in this thread wouldn't have been surprising to anyone.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM3. It's the Tekumel foundation that's being condemned for keeping it hidden more than Barker himself - obviously there isn't much point in condemning someone who's already dead.
No, Barker is absolutely being excoriated, but he is, as you say, dead. People don't get excoriated for hiding the bad beliefs of someone if whoever held the beliefs wouldn't get slammed for holding them.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AM4. Polytheism is absolutely compatible with atheism - perhaps not in every variant of polytheism, but there are atheist Hindus and there are polytheist Hindus. Just as there were atheist Hellenists and polytheist Hellenists, and they live together (and lived together in the case of the Hellenists) without any friction. If you think they're incompatible, you don't understand pagan beliefs.
Atheism is the belief that no gods exist. Polytheism is the belief in many gods. You cannot be an atheist polytheist. Hinduism isn't really a religion but a term for a set of cultural beliefs shared by several different religions, but you can't actually be an adherent of a Polytheistic religion without believing in the existence of gods. You can be a spiritualist, and you can deny the existence of a creator god and believe the gods came in after the world was made, but if you don't believe in any gods, you're not a polytheist.
Quote from: migo on March 30, 2022, 07:04:34 AMSikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, Hindus - they can all live in close proximity to each other without any problems. Muslims can't live in close proximity with other - but different - Muslims without having conflict. And Christianity used to be like that. It's not that 'all religions are like that', it's specifically Abrahamic religions that are like that. Judaism used to be like that, Christianity used to be like that, and Islam still is like that.
Huh, and I could have sworn that there was Sikh sectarian violence in India (see the Sikh-Nirankari clash) and a Sikh separatist movement in India that culminated in Operation Blue Star in the 1980s when Indira Gandhi ordered the army to attack the holiest Sikh site, the Golden Temple. Then Gandhi was assassinated by her Sikh bodyguards in revenge for this, after which followed riots and violence directed specifically against Sikhs. Huh, almost looks like religious tensions from here, but clearly those are impossible if an Abrahamic religion isn't involved.
Riddle me this: Why are the charges of nazi anti-semite and not of muslim anti-semite?
Because he was writing for a Neo-Nazi anti-semitic publisher and was a board member of a neo-Nazi anti-semitic holocaust denial magazine.
And not, as far as we know, writing for an anti-semitic muslim publisher.
So, him being a muslim had nothing to do with it.
Maybe or maybe not. But the fact remains he's being called a neo-nazi because he hung out with, got published by, and helped manage the magazine of Neo-Nazis. I have no idea what he did at the mosque, if indeed he even went to a mosque.
Quote from: Omega on April 01, 2022, 12:48:19 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 31, 2022, 07:55:44 PM
and was a board member of a neo-Nazi anti-semitic holocaust denial magazine.
2: Which, as has been pointed out by others, could be for reasons other than support. Research, watchdog, etc. But that works only if Barker intended the book as some sort of jab at neo-nazis.
FOR 12 YEARS?
Let me put it this way: if someone was on the board of directors of NAMBLA for a dozen years, and when confronted about it claimed "oh it's not because I like man-boy love, it's because I was keeping an eye on them!" would you believe him?
You're just being a fucking buffoon at this point.
Occupy Tekumel is pure horseshit. It's saying "Let's keep making money off this guy's work while condemning him."
Rob Conley didn't "Occupy The Wilderlands". He flushed decades worth of work and investment along with Bledsaw's world and made his own setting. He took it right in the shorts economically for his beliefs, something the Tekumel Foundation and Jeff Dee apparently won't do. I am Jack's total lack of surprise.
Quote from: crkrueger on April 02, 2022, 03:35:31 PM
Occupy Tekumel is pure horseshit. It's saying "Let's keep making money off this guy's work while condemning him."
Rob Conley didn't "Occupy The Wilderlands". He flushed decades worth of work and investment along with Bledsaw's world and made his own setting. He took it right in the shorts economically for his beliefs, something the Tekumel Foundation and Jeff Dee apparently won't do. I am Jack's total lack of surprise.
Got to say, I get the sentiment of the "Occupy Tekumel" guys. A campaign is the DM's, not the creator's. For example, I do think Marion Zimmer Bradley was guilty of what her victims accused her - but I'm not willing to give up on my "Thieves' World" game. She doesn't sit at my gaming table. My players do.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 02, 2022, 01:38:43 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 01, 2022, 12:48:19 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 31, 2022, 07:55:44 PM
and was a board member of a neo-Nazi anti-semitic holocaust denial magazine.
2: Which, as has been pointed out by others, could be for reasons other than support. Research, watchdog, etc. But that works only if Barker intended the book as some sort of jab at neo-nazis.
FOR 12 YEARS?
Let me put it this way: if someone was on the board of directors of NAMBLA for a dozen years, and when confronted about it claimed "oh it's not because I like man-boy love, it's because I was keeping an eye on them!" would you believe him?
You're just being a fucking buffoon at this point.
Stop looking in the mirror Pundit.
I said.
But that works only if Barker intended the book as some sort of jab at neo-nazis. The longer he was on the board the less likely that is.
But thanks for again doing what the SJWs do so well.
Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2022, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 02, 2022, 01:38:43 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 01, 2022, 12:48:19 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 31, 2022, 07:55:44 PM
and was a board member of a neo-Nazi anti-semitic holocaust denial magazine.
2: Which, as has been pointed out by others, could be for reasons other than support. Research, watchdog, etc. But that works only if Barker intended the book as some sort of jab at neo-nazis.
FOR 12 YEARS?
Let me put it this way: if someone was on the board of directors of NAMBLA for a dozen years, and when confronted about it claimed "oh it's not because I like man-boy love, it's because I was keeping an eye on them!" would you believe him?
You're just being a fucking buffoon at this point.
Stop looking in the mirror Pundit.
I said. But that works only if Barker intended the book as some sort of jab at neo-nazis.
The longer he was on the board the less likely that is.
But thanks for again doing what the SJWs do so well.
Your post is a perfect example of why the SJWs love this thread.
I do have to give Barker props for not murdering anyone or burning a church down. 8)
Quote from: Rafael on April 02, 2022, 04:10:54 PM
Quote from: crkrueger on April 02, 2022, 03:35:31 PM
Occupy Tekumel is pure horseshit. It's saying "Let's keep making money off this guy's work while condemning him."
Rob Conley didn't "Occupy The Wilderlands". He flushed decades worth of work and investment along with Bledsaw's world and made his own setting. He took it right in the shorts economically for his beliefs, something the Tekumel Foundation and Jeff Dee apparently won't do. I am Jack's total lack of surprise.
Got to say, I get the sentiment of the "Occupy Tekumel" guys. A campaign is the DM's, not the creator's. For example, I do think Marion Zimmer Bradley was guilty of what her victims accused her - but I'm not willing to give up on my "Thieves' World" game. She doesn't sit at my gaming table. My players do.
Problem is the intent was never "lets just play Tekumel".
Its been an effort to gain control over Tekumel. Or for the SJWs, destroy it. That Barker put all the tools needed into their hands is just an added bonus. That he was a neo-nazi is not even an afterthought. They were hounding the game long before any of this was revealed.
Quote from: DocJones on April 02, 2022, 08:54:09 PM
I do have to give Barker props for not murdering anyone or burning a church down. 8)
Considering some of the accusations tossed around. You'd think he did.
Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2022, 08:58:54 PM
Quote from: Rafael on April 02, 2022, 04:10:54 PM
Quote from: crkrueger on April 02, 2022, 03:35:31 PM
Occupy Tekumel is pure horseshit. It's saying "Let's keep making money off this guy's work while condemning him."
Rob Conley didn't "Occupy The Wilderlands". He flushed decades worth of work and investment along with Bledsaw's world and made his own setting. He took it right in the shorts economically for his beliefs, something the Tekumel Foundation and Jeff Dee apparently won't do. I am Jack's total lack of surprise.
Got to say, I get the sentiment of the "Occupy Tekumel" guys. A campaign is the DM's, not the creator's. For example, I do think Marion Zimmer Bradley was guilty of what her victims accused her - but I'm not willing to give up on my "Thieves' World" game. She doesn't sit at my gaming table. My players do.
Problem is the intent was never "lets just play Tekumel".
Its been an effort to gain control over Tekumel. Or for the SJWs, destroy it. That Barker put all the tools needed into their hands is just an added bonus. That he was a neo-nazi is not even an afterthought. They were hounding the game long before any of this was revealed.
Not wrong, and Jeff Dee is already going on about how folks are attempting to leverage this incident to take control of the franchise away from them. Though I can't imagine who would want their name associated with this hot potato at this point.
Quote from: Blankman on March 31, 2022, 02:09:04 PM
... ok, go to a college campus and do a survey of how many people have actually read the Koran. Shit, do a survey on how many have read the Bible (especially the parts in the Old Testament with really heinous and hateful stuff in it).
Non-Muslims not having read the Quran is irrelevant. What's relevant is that Barker read the Quran and then converted. He knew what was in it and thought it was acceptable.
Quote
I haven't seen this not being discussed anywhere anyone talks about rpgs online. You think this discussion is being silenced? What the hell are you talking about? How delusional are you?
Link to one other place that is talking about Islam's hatred towards Jews and Barker being Muslim being relevant to his hatred of Jews.
Quote
The Women's March is again something that happened in the past few years, what does it have to do with the past millenium, or even 70 years ago? Before modern Israel was a state, there was this thing called the holocaust, and before that there were all kinds of pogroms against Jews, off an on for hundreds of years. You're completely unhinged here.
Yes, there has always been attacks on Jews, and they have been tolerated and encouraged. Since 1945 they have still been tolerated and encouraged, but only when done by Muslims.
Quote
Your status in the community is completely different to whether or not you're a believer. No one cares if you're Christian or not in Sweden, that doesn't mean there are atheist Christians, it just means no one gives a shit.
You're looking at this from the invalid Christian perspective that is being imposed on Hindus, not from the perspective of Hindus themselves.
Quote
I don't live in India, so it will be harder for me just on that score, but yes, it will be easier to dig up examples of religious intolerance when it involves either of the two biggest religions on the planet, that's only natural. There's over 2 billion Christians, there's close to 2 billion Muslims, there's 26 million Sikhs. That's two orders of magnitude.
Muslim violence per capita is 20 times higher than all other religions. If you want to make the orders of magnitude argument, you're still not going to win.
Barker didn't write fiction about Muslims taking over America and killing all the Jews, he wrote fiction about Nazis doing it, and he sat as an editor for a Nazi publication, not a Muslim publication. That's why people are saying "Barker was a nazi", because that's the relevant part here. I also see you changed your tune from "Barker had PhD when he converted to Islam, that means he knew what he was getting into" to "going to a university means you can read, so you must have read the Koran" to "what's important is that Barker read the Koran". You're completely inconsistent, as can be seen when you constantly change your points as soon as they get called out as the bullshit they are. I'm done playing this game with you, you need to acknowledge that you were wrong about all the points you made and that you dishonestly tried to change them if you want me to respond to you anymore migo. Because what's the point otherwise? You post something false, I correct you, you then immediately pretend that you didn't post that or that whatever proof doesn't count for reasons or that your actual point was something other than what you actually posted. Just admit that you've just been spouting bullshit with nothing to back it up in order to talk about your hatred for Muslims rather than actually wanting to talk about an rpg-related topic.
This is what I first said back on page 8.
QuoteAnyone who is a careful reader and researches Islam is aware of Islam's anti-Semitism (really Islam's anti-Judaism as Arabs are Semites too). As Professor Barker was highly educated and certainly a careful reader (you don't create a world as detailed and deep as Tekumel if you aren't, and you probably don't get a doctorate either), the only plausible conclusion is that he was at least aware of Islam's hostility towards Jews and that at a minimum he was OK with it.
That has always been my point. I just had to re-draw your attention to it because you didn't want to see it.
Dunno. Jewish communities thrived in islamic world through centuries. There was generally less bad blood than between Jews and Christians. It really changed I think only with foundation of Israel, which muslims took as theft of their holy land.
Quote from: migo on April 03, 2022, 06:20:43 PM
This is what I first said back on page 8.
QuoteAnyone who is a careful reader and researches Islam is aware of Islam's anti-Semitism (really Islam's anti-Judaism as Arabs are Semites too). As Professor Barker was highly educated and certainly a careful reader (you don't create a world as detailed and deep as Tekumel if you aren't, and you probably don't get a doctorate either), the only plausible conclusion is that he was at least aware of Islam's hostility towards Jews and that at a minimum he was OK with it.
That has always been my point. I just had to re-draw your attention to it because you didn't want to see it.
No it wasn't. Again, this wasn't your first point, you changed it to this after I pointed out you were in fact wrong about Barker converting when he had his PhD. This is just more bullshit trying to paper over the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Quote from: Wrath of God on April 03, 2022, 06:32:40 PM
Dunno. Jewish communities thrived in islamic world through centuries. There was generally less bad blood than between Jews and Christians. It really changed I think only with foundation of Israel, which muslims took as theft of their holy land.
Don't bother, migo has already shown a distinct lack of interest in facts when they happen to not align with his religious views.
Quote from: Wrath of God on April 03, 2022, 06:32:40 PM
Dunno. Jewish communities thrived in islamic world through centuries. There was generally less bad blood than between Jews and Christians. It really changed I think only with foundation of Israel, which muslims took as theft of their holy land.
There was more bad blood between Christians and Christians then between Jews and Christians.
Christians being famously tolerant of all other religions except slightly different Christian sects.
If you want an example of super psycho religions then I could post a picture of all the major religions founders and see what happens.
The greatest attack on Jews ever didn't come from Muslims but hey, go off.
Unsurprisingly, the Qur'an, like the Bible, is pretty inconsistent. Both books were compiled by many different people. Sure, there are many warlike passages, but there are also passages that expressly permit Muslims to associate with, and even marry, Jews and Christians.
None of which is meant to minimize the current global problem of Islamic extremism. But Muslim doesn't always equal anti-Semite.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on April 03, 2022, 10:27:51 AM
Not wrong, and Jeff Dee is already going on about how folks are attempting to leverage this incident to take control of the franchise away from them. Though I can't imagine who would want their name associated with this hot potato at this point.
Anyone that wants to make a fast buck by "liberating" Tekumel.
Quote from: Blankman on April 03, 2022, 02:07:30 PM
Barker didn't write fiction about Muslims taking over America and killing all the Jews, he wrote fiction about Nazis doing it,
Actually he didnt do that either. Isralies? Yes. Because the "Izzies" often are shooting first. But as quoted earlier in the thread the main character states theyd have preferred peace with Israel and the Jews. Which is what makes the book such a damnable thing to pin down and discredits anyone making claims of "its anti-semitic!" Its a white nationalist book. They do not want anyone not white in their land and just seem to deport them when possible. Its their allies, the brits and yanks that come across as the less cordial.
And when you think about it. That is exactly what a book promoting their agenda should be if you want to attract anyone. Show themselves as the good guys. The reasonable ones. The ones that want peace. And bitch about how unfairly they got treated and how hypocritical the "Izzies" are.
As said. That is my reading of the last 4th of the book and doing some cursory leafing through the rest looking for anything that leaps out. I may keep working through it. But it is probably more of the same. And very likely intentional.
If you are going to use the book as "proof" then at least get the story right and nail Barker for what the book is. Nazi propaganda meant to make them look good. Barker put some thought into all this.
And weirdly I ended up backing my own comment about there being other "what if" stories out there. This one from the late 40s about Hitler using advanced surgery techniques to change his face. And escapes death at the end. Was very not expecting to see this so relatively soon after WWII. Came across it out of the blue while looking for something else. Used to have an old anthology comic with a similar trick. Except it backfires on the villain who takes the identity of a Jewish Nazi hunter.
Quote from: Omega on April 04, 2022, 07:32:05 AM
Quote from: Blankman on April 03, 2022, 02:07:30 PM
Barker didn't write fiction about Muslims taking over America and killing all the Jews, he wrote fiction about Nazis doing it,
Actually he didnt do that either. Isralies? Yes. Because the "Izzies" often are shooting first. But as quoted earlier in the thread the main character states theyd have preferred peace with Israel and the Jews. Which is what makes the book such a damnable thing to pin down and discredits anyone making claims of "its anti-semitic!" Its a white nationalist book. They do not want anyone not white in their land and just seem to deport them when possible. Its their allies, the brits and yanks that come across as the less cordial.
And when you think about it. That is exactly what a book promoting their agenda should be if you want to attract anyone. Show themselves as the good guys. The reasonable ones. The ones that want peace. And bitch about how unfairly they got treated and how hypocritical the "Izzies" are.
As said. That is my reading of the last 4th of the book and doing some cursory leafing through the rest looking for anything that leaps out. I may keep working through it. But it is probably more of the same. And very likely intentional.
If you are going to use the book as "proof" then at least get the story right and nail Barker for what the book is. Nazi propaganda meant to make them look good. Barker put some thought into all this.
And weirdly I ended up backing my own comment about there being other "what if" stories out there. This one from the late 40s about Hitler using advanced surgery techniques to change his face. And escapes death at the end. Was very not expecting to see this so relatively soon after WWII. Came across it out of the blue while looking for something else. Used to have an old anthology comic with a similar trick. Except it backfires on the villain who takes the identity of a Jewish Nazi hunter.
Yes, you're making my point for me. I don't care how good the Nazi propaganda is as a piece of propaganda, the fact remains that it is Nazi propaganda about Nazis killing Jews and taking over the world. Of course the book is going to show them as the good guys, that is irrelevant. It isn't propaganda about how Hamas are the good guys.
Quote from: Wrath of God on April 03, 2022, 06:32:40 PM
Dunno. Jewish communities thrived in islamic world through centuries. There was generally less bad blood than between Jews and Christians. It really changed I think only with foundation of Israel, which muslims took as theft of their holy land.
Israel's implicit alliance with Britain also threatened the region with the specter of European imperialism.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 03, 2022, 09:11:47 PM
The greatest attack on Jews ever didn't come from Muslims but hey, go off.
Unsurprisingly, the Qur'an, like the Bible, is pretty inconsistent. Both books were compiled by many different people. Sure, there are many warlike passages, but there are also passages that expressly permit Muslims to associate with, and even marry, Jews and Christians.
None of which is meant to minimize the current global problem of Islamic extremism. But Muslim doesn't always equal anti-Semite.
Not all Muslims.
Quote from: Blankman on April 03, 2022, 06:33:16 PM
Quote from: migo on April 03, 2022, 06:20:43 PM
This is what I first said back on page 8.
QuoteAnyone who is a careful reader and researches Islam is aware of Islam's anti-Semitism (really Islam's anti-Judaism as Arabs are Semites too). As Professor Barker was highly educated and certainly a careful reader (you don't create a world as detailed and deep as Tekumel if you aren't, and you probably don't get a doctorate either), the only plausible conclusion is that he was at least aware of Islam's hostility towards Jews and that at a minimum he was OK with it.
That has always been my point. I just had to re-draw your attention to it because you didn't want to see it.
No it wasn't. Again, this wasn't your first point, you changed it to this after I pointed out you were in fact wrong about Barker converting when he had his PhD. This is just more bullshit trying to paper over the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about.
It literally was my first point. It was what I said before you or anyone else responded to me.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 03, 2022, 09:11:47 PM
The greatest attack on Jews ever didn't come from Muslims but hey, go off.
Unsurprisingly, the Qur'an, like the Bible, is pretty inconsistent. Both books were compiled by many different people. Sure, there are many warlike passages, but there are also passages that expressly permit Muslims to associate with, and even marry, Jews and Christians.
None of which is meant to minimize the current global problem of Islamic extremism. But Muslim doesn't always equal anti-Semite.
The Quran has the law of abrogation, the Bible has nothing like it. Because of that the Quran isn't inconsistent and the more warlike Medina-surah trump the more peaceful Mecca-surah.
QuoteThe Quran has the law of abrogation, the Bible has nothing like it. Because of that the Quran isn't inconsistent and the more warlike Medina-surah trump the more peaceful Mecca-surah.
Bible most definitely at least in eyes of all ancient Churches have abrogation on the line of Old / New Testament
Quote from: migo on April 07, 2022, 02:07:52 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 03, 2022, 09:11:47 PM
The greatest attack on Jews ever didn't come from Muslims but hey, go off.
Unsurprisingly, the Qur'an, like the Bible, is pretty inconsistent. Both books were compiled by many different people. Sure, there are many warlike passages, but there are also passages that expressly permit Muslims to associate with, and even marry, Jews and Christians.
None of which is meant to minimize the current global problem of Islamic extremism. But Muslim doesn't always equal anti-Semite.
The Quran has the law of abrogation, the Bible has nothing like it. Because of that the Quran isn't inconsistent and the more warlike Medina-surah trump the more peaceful Mecca-surah.
"the Bible has nothing like it"
OK KEK
Quote from: Shasarak on April 04, 2022, 04:59:41 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 03, 2022, 09:11:47 PM
The greatest attack on Jews ever didn't come from Muslims but hey, go off.
Unsurprisingly, the Qur'an, like the Bible, is pretty inconsistent. Both books were compiled by many different people. Sure, there are many warlike passages, but there are also passages that expressly permit Muslims to associate with, and even marry, Jews and Christians.
None of which is meant to minimize the current global problem of Islamic extremism. But Muslim doesn't always equal anti-Semite.
Not all Muslims.
Exactly. Not all Muslims are anti-semites.
Back on topic. Such as it is.
Havent heard back from anyone messaged so no word yet from anyone with better insight than the mob.
Just looked this guy up and he even did some articles in Gamescience... damn. Honestly only came face to face with a real neo nazi once, considering I was wearing my kippah I was not well received...
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 07, 2022, 05:34:19 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on April 04, 2022, 04:59:41 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 03, 2022, 09:11:47 PM
The greatest attack on Jews ever didn't come from Muslims but hey, go off.
Unsurprisingly, the Qur'an, like the Bible, is pretty inconsistent. Both books were compiled by many different people. Sure, there are many warlike passages, but there are also passages that expressly permit Muslims to associate with, and even marry, Jews and Christians.
None of which is meant to minimize the current global problem of Islamic extremism. But Muslim doesn't always equal anti-Semite.
Not all Muslims.
Exactly. Not all Muslims are anti-semites.
According to the ADL, #notallnazis either. I guess its about time to see bizarro fly across the sky.
Quote from: oggsmash on April 20, 2022, 08:17:31 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 07, 2022, 05:34:19 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on April 04, 2022, 04:59:41 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 03, 2022, 09:11:47 PM
The greatest attack on Jews ever didn't come from Muslims but hey, go off.
Unsurprisingly, the Qur'an, like the Bible, is pretty inconsistent. Both books were compiled by many different people. Sure, there are many warlike passages, but there are also passages that expressly permit Muslims to associate with, and even marry, Jews and Christians.
None of which is meant to minimize the current global problem of Islamic extremism. But Muslim doesn't always equal anti-Semite.
Not all Muslims.
Exactly. Not all Muslims are anti-semites.
According to the ADL, #notallnazis either. I guess its about time to see bizarro fly across the sky.
He's been featured on Superman and Lois this season.
Quote from: oggsmash on April 20, 2022, 08:17:31 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 07, 2022, 05:34:19 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on April 04, 2022, 04:59:41 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 03, 2022, 09:11:47 PM
The greatest attack on Jews ever didn't come from Muslims but hey, go off.
Unsurprisingly, the Qur'an, like the Bible, is pretty inconsistent. Both books were compiled by many different people. Sure, there are many warlike passages, but there are also passages that expressly permit Muslims to associate with, and even marry, Jews and Christians.
None of which is meant to minimize the current global problem of Islamic extremism. But Muslim doesn't always equal anti-Semite.
Not all Muslims.
Exactly. Not all Muslims are anti-semites.
According to the ADL, #notallnazis either. I guess its about time to see bizarro fly across the sky.
What does this even mean
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 20, 2022, 08:52:31 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on April 20, 2022, 08:17:31 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 07, 2022, 05:34:19 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on April 04, 2022, 04:59:41 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 03, 2022, 09:11:47 PM
The greatest attack on Jews ever didn't come from Muslims but hey, go off.
Unsurprisingly, the Qur'an, like the Bible, is pretty inconsistent. Both books were compiled by many different people. Sure, there are many warlike passages, but there are also passages that expressly permit Muslims to associate with, and even marry, Jews and Christians.
None of which is meant to minimize the current global problem of Islamic extremism. But Muslim doesn't always equal anti-Semite.
Not all Muslims.
Exactly. Not all Muslims are anti-semites.
According to the ADL, #notallnazis either. I guess its about time to see bizarro fly across the sky.
He's been featured on Superman and Lois this season.
I saw clips from the show on youtube. I thought he looked and acted as I would expect bizarro to act. His timing was pretty good as to arrival. A bit early, but all good.
The more I think about this, the more I realize I don't care that he wrote a book I wouldn't like, or that he had politics (that he seemed to mostly not be vocal about) that I'm not a fan of.
The works he's famous for are great, and that's enough. I bet all those ex-Nazis who got us to the moon wrote some stuff I wouldn't agree with politically either, but they were still great men that did great things. I don't have to agree with their politics to recognize that, or appreciate their work, or them.