Quote from: Rafael on March 26, 2022, 04:46:47 AM

As you say, probably not entirely implausible, but apparently quite improbable based on the evidence that has been presented so far.
If we get more context, maybe there's a saving grace for Barker somewhere in there.

Just his one letter casts doubt on his being a nazi and if it had been more known Barker was anti-fascist not pro-fascist then this whole chain of argument would have gone totally differently. Chirine should have known this, so probably should the foundation. Which might have been why they sat on the manuscript. But then the foundation opted to virtue signal rather than speak out? Why?

No matter what angle you approach this from at some point things go weird.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 25, 2022, 06:02:21 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 25, 2022, 05:10:34 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 25, 2022, 03:27:25 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 25, 2022, 03:20:51 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:20:09 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:12:57 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:07:42 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:01:58 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:27:52 AM

   That is a very good point.   Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke.  Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.

Oh but they are. Nazis believe exactly the same things about race as the wokists. They just flip which skin colors should be segregated or condemned. Except when it comes to Israel and Jews, where their beliefs match precisely.

  Race, maybe, nationalism, transgender issues, use of violence, etc they have some pretty different beliefs.    They are not the same thing, no more than an alligator and a bear are the same animal.  Both are dangerous, but present different dangers and in different ways.   Two things both being bad do not make them the same thing.  It makes them both bad, calling  two different bad things the same bad thing is folly.

Their views on Race-based Collectivism are one and the same.

  No, they are not.   

They absolutely are:

    We will just have to agree to disagree.

Only because you're incapable of effective rebuttal.

No, because you are going to equate a multi racial movement to a mono racial movement no matter what I say.  You see the worst bad guys in Nazis (and rightfully so) but you label the woke as the same thing. It is a simple way to look at things.  A bit of cursory reading about nazis, and it is pretty clear they are not multi racial, not by design.  Woke ideology is, it has to be to gain footing.  Now could it morph later (it is more social marxism, and does have someone to "blame" but all strong arm political movements do).   

  I simply prefer to not spend all day arguing over how there are some clear differences in racial views and policies among the woke and nazis.  I also know, no one really changes their minds in an argument.   That takes time, reading, and close at hand experience.

So your entire argument is that Nazis aren't wokists because they're more exclusive? So what? All their ideological points otherwise match.
Yes, Nazis will claim "wokeists are nothing like us because they have various races in their movement, including white race-traitors".
Wokists will claim "Nazis are nothing like us because they're exclusively white, give or take a couple of PoC race-traitors".

The only people who care about that exact same type of argument are CRT people and Nazis.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 26, 2022, 05:14:23 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 25, 2022, 06:02:21 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 25, 2022, 05:10:34 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 25, 2022, 03:27:25 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 25, 2022, 03:20:51 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:20:09 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:12:57 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 11:07:42 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 11:01:58 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:27:52 AM

   That is a very good point.   Maybe there should be a list of publishers with counter to it, instead of putting nazis as too woke.  Because last I read from the two books I read on the subject, Nazis were NOT woke.

Oh but they are. Nazis believe exactly the same things about race as the wokists. They just flip which skin colors should be segregated or condemned. Except when it comes to Israel and Jews, where their beliefs match precisely.

  Race, maybe, nationalism, transgender issues, use of violence, etc they have some pretty different beliefs.    They are not the same thing, no more than an alligator and a bear are the same animal.  Both are dangerous, but present different dangers and in different ways.   Two things both being bad do not make them the same thing.  It makes them both bad, calling  two different bad things the same bad thing is folly.

Their views on Race-based Collectivism are one and the same.

  No, they are not.   

They absolutely are:

    We will just have to agree to disagree.

Only because you're incapable of effective rebuttal.

No, because you are going to equate a multi racial movement to a mono racial movement no matter what I say.  You see the worst bad guys in Nazis (and rightfully so) but you label the woke as the same thing. It is a simple way to look at things.  A bit of cursory reading about nazis, and it is pretty clear they are not multi racial, not by design.  Woke ideology is, it has to be to gain footing.  Now could it morph later (it is more social marxism, and does have someone to "blame" but all strong arm political movements do).   

  I simply prefer to not spend all day arguing over how there are some clear differences in racial views and policies among the woke and nazis.  I also know, no one really changes their minds in an argument.   That takes time, reading, and close at hand experience.

So your entire argument is that Nazis aren't wokists because they're more exclusive? So what? All their ideological points otherwise match.
Yes, Nazis will claim "wokeists are nothing like us because they have various races in their movement, including white race-traitors".
Wokists will claim "Nazis are nothing like us because they're exclusively white, give or take a couple of PoC race-traitors".

The only people who care about that exact same type of argument are CRT people and Nazis.

  I made no argument.  I made a point about not seeking an argument.  You then make a point I must be a nazi or woke for pointing out a basic difference between the two.  You miss where I am taking a pass on an argument?  Or is it not within you to just let something lie?   Because it certainly looks as if you are positioning this to say if I do not agree with you I must be Nazi or woke. 

Greetings!

Geesus, this argument is all kinds of mean-spirited and arrogant stupid. Do Wokists and Nazis share some striking similarities in their attitudes? Yes, yes they do. However, Nazis and Wokists have some large, and distinctive differences that make them not the same.

If you agree, great! If you *don't* agree, great!

Trying to INSIST that someone else see precisely and agree entirely with one perspective or the other is just dumb.

It is not some kind of character evaluation whether you can see the distinct differences or whether you can't. It just is.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: oggsmash on March 21, 2022, 10:36:48 AM
I do not see how it can not just boil down to it goes on the red list.

Ditto.

Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2022, 04:28:59 AM
Which is more likely?

A: Barker, who was known to hate his neo-nazi relatives and these types in general, writes a book to somehow tweak their noses and fuck with them?
B: Barker was a neo-nazi and did it for the evulz? And somehow hid it from everyone?

Which is more likely?

A: Someone writes an entire novel as some kind of mild joke, and publishes it with a Neo-Nazi book publisher for the luz? Like really sticking it to the Neo-Nazis by spending months of his authorial life writing a book, then sending it off to Nazis who sell it for money.
B: Barker doesn't see a problem with writing Nazi fiction with the SS as heroes, and so does exactly that?

The answer is... who cares? In both of those scenarios, Barker is a piece of dogshit.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 27, 2022, 05:41:14 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2022, 04:28:59 AM
Which is more likely?

A: Barker, who was known to hate his neo-nazi relatives and these types in general, writes a book to somehow tweak their noses and fuck with them?
B: Barker was a neo-nazi and did it for the evulz? And somehow hid it from everyone?

Which is more likely?

A: Someone writes an entire novel as some kind of mild joke, and publishes it with a Neo-Nazi book publisher for the luz? Like really sticking it to the Neo-Nazis by spending months of his authorial life writing a book, then sending it off to Nazis who sell it for money.
B: Barker doesn't see a problem with writing Nazi fiction with the SS as heroes, and so does exactly that?

The answer is... who cares? In both of those scenarios, Barker is a piece of dogshit.

So, by this logic EVERY single game that uses an IP made by some EVIL person as it's basis belongs in the red list even if said EVIL person has been dead for how many years.

Meaning ALL of the games inspired by HPL Mythos... And the list will certainly grow.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 02:23:24 PM

So, by this logic EVERY single game that uses an IP made by some EVIL person as it's basis belongs in the red list even if said EVIL person has been dead for how many years.

Meaning ALL of the games inspired by HPL Mythos... And the list will certainly grow.

That is the whole point.
Lie. Get stuff removed or censored enough it might as well be. Further limit peoples access to only those things the cult approves.
Tell the lies enough and it becomes an uphill battle to de-program anyone. Look at what was done to Gygax back in the prior iteration. I still occasionally run into people who spit on Gary because they believe he was the one sending lawyers after everyone. And refuse to accept that Gary was long gone from TSR by then.

Difference was Gary was still alive and could defend himself.

Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2022, 03:50:48 PMJust his one letter casts doubt on his being a nazi

The letter alone is not enough, though. Mind to who Barker is speaking to here, and what his actual proven actions beyond this letter were. - He never again worked with any "name" publisher or otherwise company after 1991; at the same time, for all intents and purposes, he became more embroiled with the Holocaust-denying crowd. That he shows basic human empathy for people he's already acquainted with, or that he is self-conscious enough to understand that his material might "not be for everyone" (to put things mildly) does not necessarily indicate he's being apologetic about it.

QuoteBarker was anti-fascist not pro-fascist

How do we know this?

QuoteNo matter what angle you approach this from at some point things go weird.

Definitely. First, there's the same age-old question as to why people like the different parties associated with Tekumel, the Gygax IPs, or with other oldschool properties don't simply hire PR folks to do this kind of stuff for them. Second, there's the question what the people involved with Tekumel have actually been doing for the last decade-or-so, as their lack of preparation and strategy has once more become evident with regards to the present situation.

Now, I'm not going to speculate as to why this is so; now, my impression is that we're talking about elderly citizens here that do their work pro bono, and that don't necessarily understand modern possibilities - or the shark tank that is the RPG scene. So, I'm not going to attribute to malice what could be explained by a simple lack of familiarity.

Quote from: Omega on March 27, 2022, 03:49:32 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 02:23:24 PM

So, by this logic EVERY single game that uses an IP made by some EVIL person as it's basis belongs in the red list even if said EVIL person has been dead for how many years.

Meaning ALL of the games inspired by HPL Mythos... And the list will certainly grow.

That is the whole point.
Lie. Get stuff removed or censored enough it might as well be. Further limit peoples access to only those things the cult approves.
Tell the lies enough and it becomes an uphill battle to de-program anyone. Look at what was done to Gygax back in the prior iteration. I still occasionally run into people who spit on Gary because they believe he was the one sending lawyers after everyone. And refuse to accept that Gary was long gone from TSR by then.

Difference was Gary was still alive and could defend himself.

Exactly, very Fahrenheit 451. The government (or cult) doesn't need to ban or burn books the people do it willingly.

I mean, if the game had the ideology in it I wouldn't buy it, but then again it would probably be ALREADY in the red list and no one woul argue for removing it from there.

If the author was still alive and benefiting from the game I wouldn't buy it because even if it doesn't have the ideology in it it's me giving money to people that hate me.

So let's all agree that Baker WAS a neo-nazi, so what? Why does that mather in an RPG forum?

The publishers of the game or some organization that benefits from his REALLY known works knew and didn't say anything...

Because we all know that saying something wouldn't have gotten them cancelled and deplatformed by the usual suspects...

Fuck that noise.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 03:56:55 PM
So let's all agree that Baker WAS a neo-nazi, so what? Why does that mather in an RPG forum?

The publishers of the game or some organization that benefits from his REALLY known works knew and didn't say anything...

Because we all know that saying something wouldn't have gotten them cancelled and deplatformed by the usual suspects...

And that would be bad - how exactly? Because it sure looks like Barker did those things, and that he held those beliefs, back in his day.

Can't the Tekumel Foundation, if the intention is really to uphold the memory of their friend, do so in a different way than they have chosen until now? Wouldn't it be perfectly appropriate out to tell of Barker's life and considerable influence on the RPG scene of his day without trying to act as an active game publisher or brand ambassador for "Tekumel"?

...But noone has been interested in that, am I right? 

Quote from: Rafael on March 27, 2022, 04:17:57 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 03:56:55 PM
So let's all agree that Baker WAS a neo-nazi, so what? Why does that mather in an RPG forum?

The publishers of the game or some organization that benefits from his REALLY known works knew and didn't say anything...

Because we all know that saying something wouldn't have gotten them cancelled and deplatformed by the usual suspects...

And that would be bad - how exactly? Because it sure looks like Barker did those things, and that he held those beliefs, back in his day.

Can't the Tekumel Foundation, if the intention is really to uphold the memory of their friend, do so in a different way than they have chosen until now? Wouldn't it be perfectly appropriate out to tell of Barker's life and considerable influence on the RPG scene of his day without trying to act as an active game publisher or brand ambassador for "Tekumel"?

...But noone has been interested in that, am I right? 

Cancellation by proxy isn't bad...

If you trully believe that you're a monster.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 04:57:09 PM

Quote from: Rafael on March 27, 2022, 04:17:57 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 03:56:55 PM
So let's all agree that Baker WAS a neo-nazi, so what? Why does that mather in an RPG forum?

The publishers of the game or some organization that benefits from his REALLY known works knew and didn't say anything...

Because we all know that saying something wouldn't have gotten them cancelled and deplatformed by the usual suspects...

And that would be bad - how exactly? Because it sure looks like Barker did those things, and that he held those beliefs, back in his day.

Can't the Tekumel Foundation, if the intention is really to uphold the memory of their friend, do so in a different way than they have chosen until now? Wouldn't it be perfectly appropriate out to tell of Barker's life and considerable influence on the RPG scene of his day without trying to act as an active game publisher or brand ambassador for "Tekumel"?

...But noone has been interested in that, am I right? 

Cancellation by proxy isn't bad...

If you trully believe that you're a monster.

Did you learn to read at the Derek Zoolander Center?

Quote from: Rafael on March 27, 2022, 05:12:56 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 04:57:09 PM

Quote from: Rafael on March 27, 2022, 04:17:57 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 03:56:55 PM
So let's all agree that Baker WAS a neo-nazi, so what? Why does that mather in an RPG forum?

The publishers of the game or some organization that benefits from his REALLY known works knew and didn't say anything...

Because we all know that saying something wouldn't have gotten them cancelled and deplatformed by the usual suspects...

And that would be bad - how exactly? Because it sure looks like Barker did those things, and that he held those beliefs, back in his day.

Can't the Tekumel Foundation, if the intention is really to uphold the memory of their friend, do so in a different way than they have chosen until now? Wouldn't it be perfectly appropriate out to tell of Barker's life and considerable influence on the RPG scene of his day without trying to act as an active game publisher or brand ambassador for "Tekumel"?

...But noone has been interested in that, am I right? 

Cancellation by proxy isn't bad...

If you trully believe that you're a monster.

Did you learn to read at the Derek Zoolander Center?

Said the kettle.

What part of they would have been tarred, feathered and run out of town by no wrong doing of their own you didn't understand?

Furthermore, can you point to ANY neo-nazi ideology on Tekumel?

Why is it relevan for the game that Barker was one? Assuming he was and that he never changed since on Tekumel you don't find that shit.

So, why is it relevant for the fundation? Why did they need to cut their own necks so you cultists coluld call them neo-nazis by proxy?

Tell me who said this and how old is it: "If 11 people sit at a table to eat and one is a nazi now you have 11 nazis"
And then you idiots wonder why the fundation didn't say shit assuming they knew.

Like I said, if you believe in cancellation by proxy you're a monster.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 05:20:27 PM

Quote from: Rafael on March 27, 2022, 05:12:56 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 04:57:09 PM

Quote from: Rafael on March 27, 2022, 04:17:57 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 03:56:55 PM
So let's all agree that Baker WAS a neo-nazi, so what? Why does that mather in an RPG forum?

The publishers of the game or some organization that benefits from his REALLY known works knew and didn't say anything...

Because we all know that saying something wouldn't have gotten them cancelled and deplatformed by the usual suspects...

And that would be bad - how exactly? Because it sure looks like Barker did those things, and that he held those beliefs, back in his day.

Can't the Tekumel Foundation, if the intention is really to uphold the memory of their friend, do so in a different way than they have chosen until now? Wouldn't it be perfectly appropriate out to tell of Barker's life and considerable influence on the RPG scene of his day without trying to act as an active game publisher or brand ambassador for "Tekumel"?

...But noone has been interested in that, am I right? 

Cancellation by proxy isn't bad...

If you trully believe that you're a monster.

Did you learn to read at the Derek Zoolander Center?

Said the kettle.

What part of they would have been tarred, feathered and run out of town by no wrong doing of their own you didn't understand?

Furthermore, can you point to ANY neo-nazi ideology on Tekumel?

Why is it relevan for the game that Barker was one? Assuming he was and that he never changed since on Tekumel you don't find that shit.

So, why is it relevant for the fundation? Why did they need to cut their own necks so you cultists coluld call them neo-nazis by proxy?

Tell me who said this and how old is it: "If 11 people sit at a table to eat and one is a nazi now you have 11 nazis"
And then you idiots wonder why the fundation didn't say shit assuming they knew.

Like I said, if you believe in cancellation by proxy you're a monster.

It's too boring to be spending time on your manufactured arguments when we could also be talking about the real ones.

Learn to trust the process, booger.