Quote from: Abraxus on March 22, 2022, 07:28:34 AM
@Pundit

I am not pro-Nazi so fuck off with that shit let's be very crystal clear on that point.

Now if anyone else besides Cucksuck Soyarmy had posted this, and was a poster with a history arguing points in good faith and stirring shit on this site. Well you know how he is.

Your letting yourself be played because he did research on you and found you hate Nazi. How does he sow chaos and discord on this site between you and members. He make a list about barker being pro-Nazi.

Dude, this is being talked about on every RPG forum, and all over social media. Did tubesock post it here with bad intent? Probably, he posts almost everything here with bad intent. Does that change anything? No. It's certainly big and shocking news in the whole RPG world.

QuoteThen again between this thread and Twitter you have shown yourself to be unwilling to be wrong on anything. Heaven forbid the grand Pundiit be wrong. Not on this topic just in general. Someone disagrees with you and the attacks against their character or in general begin. Sorry but I'm not getting paid to kiss your ass.

What the hell am I wrong about? The evidence is overwhelming that Barker was a nazi. That's beyond doubt at this point. That the Tekumel Foundation knew about it and covered it up is also absolutely proven, they admitted it. The only thing in question is whether they covered it up for two years (which some people claim) or ten (which Chirine claims); and notably the Tekumel Foundation have suspiciously avoided saying how long they knew.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 22, 2022, 07:40:30 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 22, 2022, 02:39:07 AM
The idea that I'm somehow the one being inconsistent is ridiculous. I literally banned an anti-semite from this forum last week. The people who are being inconsistent are the ones who complain about leftist racial politics but who would seemingly throw themselves on a grenade to try to deny the overwhelming evidence of Barker having secretly been  a piece of shit.

No, you are being inconsistent. You are doing exactly what the group of people you rail against do by making false equivalences and compelling speech from others. You were yelling at a longtime member to declare himself a Nazi or a moronic cunt. You threatened a ban over it.

No I didn't. I told him to either answer my question, or stop being a spammer and leave the thread.

QuoteThis is your button, and the trolls know it. It is common knowledge that nothing sets you off like anti-Semitism. So if I wanted to fuck with your RPG forum, I'd probably do exactly what Tubesock did which is start this topic pretending like I didn't know who/what Barker or Tekumel was, just to see if I could draw some of the community offsides. After all, I'm a feckless troll who only exists to disrupt the members.

But by in large, nobody took the bait, so he switched to the crocodile tears about the fall of a legend. Any spark to light the fire. Go back and see how quick he turned me pointing out the inconsistencies of what he said about knowing Barker into being a Nazi sympathizer. That was the goal all along.

Not a single person has sympathized with a Nazi or anti-Semite. You have surrounded yourself by free thinkers who ask questions and refuse to have their free speech compelled. They're not going to break their values for Barker, and they are not going to break them for you.

There were literally a shitload of people on this thread who rushed to try to use any tactic at all not to just say that Barker was what he was: a fucking Nazi. A REAL (neo-)Nazi, but they were acting like this was all some kind of SJW plot, like they invented a fucking time machine and published the novel and faked being Barker to get a place on the board of a major holocaust-denial propaganda rag just to score one on the conservatives or something.
The level of hysterical denial reached such peaks as suggesting that maybe Barker was some kind of double-agent or CIA agent trying to... what? Blow the whole neo-nazi plot wide open?

Quote
Nazis and anti-Semites are objectively bad, representing the very worst of humanity. Hearing you talk in the past, I think we share more than a few things in common on this subject, but I do not leverage my personal life and family in arguments on forums about wizards and dragons. And they do not hold power over me today. Trolls could not do to me what they have done to you.

If people leave it is not because they are Nazis, neo-Nazi, or whatever term you and your temporary bedfellows like to throw around on people they do not agree with. It will be because this place no longer talks about RPGs, or is no longer the place for free speech or ideas.

No one did anything to me. I don't need some kind of manipulation to condemn a fucking Nazi. This isn't "someone I don't agree with", it's not that I'm calling out someone with different views from me on drug legalization or public education, it's someone reprehensible promoting the most reprehensible form of collectivism. The fact that so many people are more worried about "the left scoring points" to the point of laying covering fire for neo-nazis that are constantly trying to cozy up to the right (while using "the SJWs suck you guys and they call everyone nazis so we should all totally stick together and you should let us talk about how evil the Jews are" as their own entryist tactic) is seriously disappointing, because it means the Left has gotten so far into people's heads that they've lost all sense of priorities or consistency. Race-Theory Collectivists are not ever on "our side". They're always the enemy, the CRT-Right is no different from the CRT-Left, they're both monsters.

Quote from: Abraxus on March 22, 2022, 09:54:42 AM
Cucksuck Soyarmy must be enjoying this.


Pretending to be the innocent bearer of truth while we are at each other throats.

Lets not give him that satisfaction.

He wouldn't have gotten that satisfaction if the people on this forums, the vast majority of whom I assume are not Nazis, would have said "yeah, what a piece of shit Barker turned out to be"; instead of rushing to try to figure out how to cover for him just because their tits got all tight at the thought of any leftist gloating.

Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 05:04:25 PM
Part of the pushback against Pundit is that there is far as I know so far no clear timeline of when the Foundation learned of all this. But Pundit has declared them Nazi supporters and accused them of deliberately concealing this.

If thats true then what about Cherine who learned this apparently a decade ago. And yet on this very forum has said not a damn thing about it? And he has posted here as of I think a year ago. Maybe 2. Before my accident Im pretty sure.

Is he damned as well for not telling everyone?

1. The Tekumel Foundation has essentially admitted that it knew about this previously. They refused to say how long previously, but Chirine claims that at least two members of the Foundation knew about it as soon as he did.

2. It's not great that Chirine didn't come forward with this, but it is more forgivable, first and foremost because he does not profit from Barker's work. His reason for not coming forward was undoubtedly personal (he was one of Barker's players) and not for a profit-motive.

Quote from: Mishihari on March 22, 2022, 07:29:31 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2022, 03:43:25 PM
FACT: the Tekumel Foundation knew about this for a time period of at least two years and possibly as long as ten years, but kept it covered up because their own clout was more important.

Did they really?  Covering something up is positive action and implies a lot more activity than just staying silent about a distasteful act.  I haven't seen anything here that implies they did more than just keep quiet.

You think there's some ethical requirement that they must publicize distasteful information if they prefer to keep silent.  Legally, ethically, morally, the case for requiring positive action such as this must meet a pretty high standard, because it's such an impairment of personal liberty.  For example under US law you're not allowed to murder, but you're also not required to take positive action to save a life even if you're right there and have the means.  This comes up in the news every once in a while.  Morally I do think there's a duty take action here but the point is that we are uncomfortable requiring positive action, and for good reason.

I'm really uncomfortable with requiring positive action to report someone who is thinking wrong.  First, because this is an established tactic of totalitarians such as the USSR, the fictional 1984 government, and actual nazis.  Second because such requirements can be more easily turned to an evil rather than a good use.  Tyrants love this sort of thing.  Creating a norm of required disclosure is dangerous to the freedom of our society.  In the current political climate it's more likely to be used against you personally than any bad actors.

My opinion is that morally one must disclose information to prevent harm, but this case doesn't meet that standard.  The media in question is harmless, the nazi in question isn't currently doing anything bad because he's dead, and there's no evidence that the estate is doing anything wrong with the money.  As far as I'm concerned the foundation didn't do anything wrong by keeping quiet, and they did more than they had to by confirming that Barker was indeed a nazi when asked, so good for them.

If I found out a business partner of mine, or someone whose copyrights I'd somehow inherited, was a Nazi, I would feel I had an ethical responsibility to disclose it.

QuoteAnd I'd like to ask you something for my own curiosity; feel free to tell me it's none of my business if you don't care to answer, because I realize that it isn't.  Any sane person realizes that Nazis are evil, but you have a passion for the topic that goes beyond typical.  Is there some reason behind that?

Four of my great-grandparents died in Nazi concentration camps. My family lost most of its fortune in the Nazi invasion of Poland. My grandfather spent the war behind enemy lines in disguise, operating as a spy and falsifying documents to help hide people who would have been victims of the Nazis (including but not exclusively Jewish people).

Personally I am in favour of distinguishing between Right-Libertarians and Neo-Nazis. I am against the SJW efforts (and the Neo-Nazi efforts) to conflate the two.

#IstandwithPundit

Quote from: SHARK on March 22, 2022, 08:05:15 PM

I imagine the Tekumel Board people just said, "Yeah, the Professor is dead. No point in publicizing any strange things he was into. Just forget about it and let it sink into the oblivion of time. There is the "Public Professor" and the "Private Professor". Let the "Private Professor" remain as such, in a similar manner to which any normal person would also prefer their "Private Selves" to remain separate."

This isn't like if it was revealed Barker liked to wear women's clothing while having longshoremen poop on his face. It wasn't some kind of embarrassing private pecadillo. It was him being an active participant for a very long period of his life in the American Neo-Nazi movement.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 02:16:30 AM
He wouldn't have gotten that satisfaction if the people on this forums, the vast majority of whom I assume are not Nazis, would have said "yeah, what a piece of shit Barker turned out to be"; instead of rushing to try to figure out how to cover for him just because their tits got all tight at the thought of any leftist gloating.

Refusing to call MAR a Neo-Nazi, or even condemn what he did, because of reflexive anti-SJWism, reminds me of all the people who are so used to condemning the USA for its own bad behaviour, that they are now incapable of condemning Russia for invading Ukraine. Sometimes the mainstream narrative is correct.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 22, 2022, 10:11:33 PM

Quote from: crkrueger on March 22, 2022, 09:58:05 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 22, 2022, 07:53:39 PM
He gave himself a name suggesting he agreed with Hitler about tours,

I know you think you're extremely clever in finding the "Tours Conspiracy"  , but...
1. The first name of the Muslim General is NOT Mohammed.
2. Abd Al Rahman is a common Muslim first name/surname in Pakistan, among other countries.  Ar-Rahman is one of the most common names of Allah, it starts every chapter of the Quran, Muslims use it saying grace, etc, etc.

Ten seconds of research is all that's needed to see that's a big nothingburger.

Or it could be a name chosen specifically because it looks innocuous, but in hindsight looks like a wink at Hitler. There are a lot of "common names," and Mr. Barker was not Pakistani, so I'd bet a nickel it's not a coincidence. The reason I made the connection in the first place was because I was looking up the date of the Battle of Tours on Wikipedia and that name kind of jumped out at me. Sure, there is no proof of anything, and there probably never will be. I personally don't think Mr. Barker would have named himself that without noticing the historical connection.

"OR IT COULD BE!! I CAN'T PROVE IT, HELL NO ONE CAN! BUT I BET IT'S SO!"

You find that straw you've been grasping at with this one?

Is it not enough to point out the obvious about the dude being some manner of Neo-Nazi without descending in to Alex Jones tier conspiracy hysterics about his fucking name?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 22, 2022, 08:57:08 PM
What I get out of all this is that Tekumel will now be played just as much as it was before.

People actually play Tekumel?

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 23, 2022, 05:30:29 AM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 22, 2022, 08:57:08 PM
What I get out of all this is that Tekumel will now be played just as much as it was before.

People actually play Tekumel?

Well, they blog about it.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 02:26:26 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 05:04:25 PM
Part of the pushback against Pundit is that there is far as I know so far no clear timeline of when the Foundation learned of all this. But Pundit has declared them Nazi supporters and accused them of deliberately concealing this.

If thats true then what about Cherine who learned this apparently a decade ago. And yet on this very forum has said not a damn thing about it? And he has posted here as of I think a year ago. Maybe 2. Before my accident Im pretty sure.

Is he damned as well for not telling everyone?

1. The Tekumel Foundation has essentially admitted that it knew about this previously. They refused to say how long previously, but Chirine claims that at least two members of the Foundation knew about it as soon as he did.

2. It's not great that Chirine didn't come forward with this, but it is more forgivable, first and foremost because he does not profit from Barker's work. His reason for not coming forward was undoubtedly personal (he was one of Barker's players) and not for a profit-motive.

So the Foundation gets hell, but Chirine gets a pass? Because... feelings? Really? Chirine has feelings and can keep quiet because hes not profiting, but the foundation cant because they cant have feelings?

Again. We do not know why they kept quiet. For all we know Chirine asked them to not talk about it. For all we know the foundation forged the manuscript and placed it somewhere Chrine could find to discredit Barker. Theres any number of reasons and just jumping to the conclusion that they did it for greed is goes directly against everything you have been fighting here on this forum against what the SJWs do to people. And what did they do about this incident. Thats right. They LIED. Just to fan the flames. And if they have lied about three things. What else is a lie? They've probably added another in the time its taken me to type this out.

What is not a lie? I am sorry Dee. But Barker did write that book. And he wrote it with not one, but two agendas. And he put his agenda ahead of the other. In a way I was right at the beginning in postulating that maybe Barker did this as a subversion. I was just dead wrong about the intent. There is nothing good intentioned in Serpent's Walk. (or at least not in the normal sane definition of good intentioned...)

Quote from: S'mon on March 23, 2022, 02:40:38 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 23, 2022, 02:16:30 AM
He wouldn't have gotten that satisfaction if the people on this forums, the vast majority of whom I assume are not Nazis, would have said "yeah, what a piece of shit Barker turned out to be"; instead of rushing to try to figure out how to cover for him just because their tits got all tight at the thought of any leftist gloating.

Refusing to call MAR a Neo-Nazi, or even condemn what he did, because of reflexive anti-SJWism, reminds me of all the people who are so used to condemning the USA for its own bad behaviour, that they are now incapable of condemning Russia for invading Ukraine. Sometimes the mainstream narrative is correct.

Except no one here has refused to call Barker a Neo-Nazi. Nice try though and you proved me right that someone would lie while I was fucking typing out a response. Bravo.

Members have refused to call the foundation Nazis without some proof that they did it for greed or nefarious reasons just because they sat on the info. Especially when threatened to do so.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 23, 2022, 05:30:29 AM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 22, 2022, 08:57:08 PM
What I get out of all this is that Tekumel will now be played just as much as it was before.

People actually play Tekumel?

Well... I did?
(After years of hunting down the Adventures on books I was missing, and the attendant boxed set.)
I still have Monard's explanation of why things went to heck with that project.

I generally agree with the sentiment that "due process" is required here. I think we all agree that we are happy to accept positive news at face value - but in a case like this one, one that essentially asks the entire community to show some kind of even passive reaction, I want to see what this is really about.

Two truths:

1. We only have a few press releases on Barker, so far, not the respective texts.

2. This case, specifically, and not just in principle, could plausibly turn out to have a different context than the one suggested:

-- Especially 1980s and 1990s academia, it used to be perfectly normal to be a member of some obscure society, and to never know anything about them beyond putting your signature on their membership registration. So, it's going to make a significant difference how exactly Barker participated in that historical society he was allegedly a member of, even if he held a title within that society. (Which also is something very common in smaller associations.)

-- The content and the publication history of the novel, and possible changes to the original manuscript that were made by the publisher. Who knows, for all we know, Barker might have believed he was writing a fantasy version of "Springtime For Hitler". Thing is, we don't know until we get a proper look at the material.


Now, to be clear, I wasn't in the least surprised by these news, and I consider the possibility of them being quite accurate to be very, very likely. I'm also not writing this in ignorance of the fact that Barker clearly actively pursued some of the things that have now come to light. Him writing a novel and giving it to THAT publisher, not much room there to argue on his behalf.

----- Still so, people should not be able to destroy another person's legacy based on hearsay alone.