What I get out of all this is that Tekumel will now be played just as much as it was before.

Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 07:56:13 PMI was making the point that their reasons didn't matter, only their actions.

There I think we will probably have to agree to disagree; I think motive is important in any situation where one is talking about moral responsibility, because that's ultimately what this boils down to. It does make a difference why people do things.

Given that motive is unfalsifiable in this case, I suggest that one way we can distinguish our reaction from the TBP-style modding so frequently criticized in these parts is to try to assume the best of the people in question rather than the worst. That said, I can also understand the point of view which would make someone less willing to extend this benefit of doubt.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 22, 2022, 08:57:08 PM
What I get out of all this is that Tekumel will now be played just as much as it was before.

Well it will be played marginally more for as long as two months due to a momentary mini-spike in reprint sales due to this publicity, then return to default levels.

Also Russian piracy sites will see a brief increase in traffic from people downloading 'Serpent's Walk', and maybe 'Man of Gold' and 'Flamesong' (they don't have the other 2000s novels) and the revenue generated from malware clicks will help fund the war effort in Ukraine.

It's also possible that due to all this stress, some of the old hippies at the Tekumel Foundation will increase their marijuana consumption.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 22, 2022, 08:57:08 PM
What I get out of all this is that Tekumel will now be played just as much as it was before.

Probably moreso if the attacks on the foundation are proven to be in the wrong. Which those accusing the foundation are already drifting dangerously into without even any supporting evidence they are right or wrong.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 22, 2022, 07:53:39 PM
He gave himself a name suggesting he agreed with Hitler about tours,

I know you think you're extremely clever in finding the "Tours Conspiracy"  , but...
1. The first name of the Muslim General is NOT Mohammed.
2. Abd Al Rahman is a common Muslim first name/surname in Pakistan, among other countries.  Ar-Rahman is one of the most common names of Allah, it starts every chapter of the Quran, Muslims use it saying grace, etc, etc.

Ten seconds of research is all that's needed to see that's a big nothingburger.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 22, 2022, 09:28:14 PM
Given that motive is unfalsifiable in this case, I suggest that one way we can distinguish our reaction from the TBP-style modding so frequently criticized in these parts is to try to assume the best of the people in question rather than the worst. That said, I can also understand the point of view which would make someone less willing to extend this benefit of doubt.

Except, again. We do not know the reason why they sat on it. There is a vast world of difference between not knowing what the hell to do with the information. And going "nya-ha-ha! No one must know our evil plot!"

Especially in light of how other groups have been treated when just one member flips out. Time and again the while group gets damned for that one persons actions. Fear of accusations of Guilt by Association is a valid reason to not talk.

And look at what is happening now. People are eager to declare them absolutely guilty without even trying to discern what happened to cause them to sit on the information. As if sitting on the information is the only evidence needed to damn them. It is not.

Quote from: crkrueger on March 22, 2022, 09:58:05 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 22, 2022, 07:53:39 PM
He gave himself a name suggesting he agreed with Hitler about tours,

I know you think you're extremely clever in finding the "Tours Conspiracy"  , but...
1. The first name of the Muslim General is NOT Mohammed.
2. Abd Al Rahman is a common Muslim first name/surname in Pakistan, among other countries.  Ar-Rahman is one of the most common names of Allah, it starts every chapter of the Quran, Muslims use it saying grace, etc, etc.

Ten seconds of research is all that's needed to see that's a big nothingburger.

Or it could be a name chosen specifically because it looks innocuous, but in hindsight looks like a wink at Hitler. There are a lot of "common names," and Mr. Barker was not Pakistani, so I'd bet a nickel it's not a coincidence. The reason I made the connection in the first place was because I was looking up the date of the Battle of Tours on Wikipedia and that name kind of jumped out at me. Sure, there is no proof of anything, and there probably never will be. I personally don't think Mr. Barker would have named himself that without noticing the historical connection.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 22, 2022, 09:28:14 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 07:56:13 PMI was making the point that their reasons didn't matter, only their actions.

There I think we will probably have to agree to disagree; I think motive is important in any situation where one is talking about moral responsibility, because that's ultimately what this boils down to. It does make a difference why people do things.

Given that motive is unfalsifiable in this case, I suggest that one way we can distinguish our reaction from the TBP-style modding so frequently criticized in these parts is to try to assume the best of the people in question rather than the worst. That said, I can also understand the point of view which would make someone less willing to extend this benefit of doubt.

I think that quickly gets into hate crime territory, where we're punishing people based on their supposed inner thoughts, which I find morally objectionable. People should be judged based on their actions, not mind reading.

Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 10:07:10 PM
And look at what is happening now. People are eager to declare them absolutely guilty without even trying to discern what happened to cause them to sit on the information. As if sitting on the information is the only evidence needed to damn them. It is not.

Sure it is (though I wouldn't use your word, "damn"). What motive could conceivably matter?

Quote from: pawsplay on March 22, 2022, 10:11:33 PM

Quote from: crkrueger on March 22, 2022, 09:58:05 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 22, 2022, 07:53:39 PM
He gave himself a name suggesting he agreed with Hitler about tours,

I know you think you're extremely clever in finding the "Tours Conspiracy"  , but...
1. The first name of the Muslim General is NOT Mohammed.
2. Abd Al Rahman is a common Muslim first name/surname in Pakistan, among other countries.  Ar-Rahman is one of the most common names of Allah, it starts every chapter of the Quran, Muslims use it saying grace, etc, etc.

Ten seconds of research is all that's needed to see that's a big nothingburger.

Or it could be a name chosen specifically because it looks innocuous, but in hindsight looks like a wink at Hitler. There are a lot of "common names," and Mr. Barker was not Pakistani, so I'd bet a nickel it's not a coincidence. The reason I made the connection in the first place was because I was looking up the date of the Battle of Tours on Wikipedia and that name kind of jumped out at me. Sure, there is no proof of anything, and there probably never will be. I personally don't think Mr. Barker would have named himself that without noticing the historical connection.

His wife is Pakistani and Urdu is one of the languages he specialized in.  Your "historical connection" is the equivalent of two guys named Jones.

He wrote the fictional book The Serpent's Walk under an assumed name.
He also wrote Bridging Cultural Divides through Fantasy/Science-Fiction Role-Playing Games and Fictional Religion under his own name. 

He spent his life studying non-white languages and non-white cultures.  Are the Basque and Klamath Native Americans big amongst the "Orientalist" community? 

There's two facts, that I'll give you, don't look good.
Then there's the entire rest of his life.

If the guy was a closet Nazi, he'll have written about it somewhere other than fiction.  Letters, notes, etc.  It will come out, I'm sure.

There's no need to engage in magical thinking or be seized by Apophenia and see the number 23 everywhere.

Maye I've just spent too much time reading about Hitler. That's still not the same thing as "the number 23."

Quote from: crkrueger on March 22, 2022, 10:37:33 PM

His wife is Pakistani and Urdu is one of the languages he specialized in.

I wonder if this is why the book makes so many jabs at Israel and repeatedly brings up how badly they treated Pakistan?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 22, 2022, 08:57:08 PM
What I get out of all this is that Tekumel will now be played just as much as it was before.

An esoteric game by an obscure author with far less reach than its fans would have it.

Quote from: David Johansen on March 23, 2022, 01:01:11 AM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 22, 2022, 08:57:08 PM
What I get out of all this is that Tekumel will now be played just as much as it was before.

An esoteric game by an obscure author with far less reach than its fans would have it.

Probably something like how The Fantasy Trip is still popular yet also obscure at the same time. Tekumel lives on the richness of the setting. It also does on that same richness. I think the Adventures on set was a great idea. Ease the player into the game and setting before pummeling them insensate with the boxed set. heh.

QuoteThe first Velvet Underground album only sold 10,000 copies, but everyone who bought it formed a band"
- Brian Eno (apocryphally)

That's Tekumel for you.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 23, 2022, 01:17:48 AM

QuoteThe first Velvet Underground album only sold 10,000 copies, but everyone who bought it formed a band"
- Brian Eno (apocryphally)

That's Tekumel for you.

Are you saying that M.A.R. Barker was a cheap, cynical, woman-beating junkie who wrote some of the dumbest lyrics ever put to paper, on top of being a Nazi?

Seems he was even more of a Renaissance man than I'd reckoned, but does this mean he gets put on time out twice, or does the 'cross dressing fake homo' stuff cancel out the Nazi thing, and he gets to skate?

Or does this just mean I have to flip my gatefold copy of VU & Nico into the nearest landfill?