Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 06:09:20 PM

Quote from: Baron on January 07, 2024, 05:14:22 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 05:11:56 PM
Back then, nearly everyone was reasonably well-read, and familiar with much of history, mythology, and literature in general.

And it certainly seems different now. To what do we attribute this?

Greetings!

Hey there, Baron!

Well, I certainly think that technology has had a significant impact. research has proven, that yes, the I-Phone, video games, and such *have* in fact, greatly reduced people's attention span, reading comprehension, literacy, and general mental health.

Another factor, huge, of course, is the following generations of permissive, weak parents that failed to discipline and teach their children properly.

A third factor, I would suggest, has been the contribution of an overall decline into poor quality and mediocrity of schools and education.

Add these three factors up, and you produce a general culture that is undisciplined, frivolous, unmotivated, and functionally illiterate.

This reality is also reflected and demonstrated through numerous research over the last 20 years, especially in colleges, which demonstrate that unprecedented numbers of incoming Freshmen college students must enroll in remedial everything, because they cannot do basic mathematics, they do not know essential history, have poor reading skills, and can barely write a paragraph.

Over 20 years ago, I remember in California, the State Chancellor of the entire UC college system announced similar findings and announced new policies placing incoming Freshmen on probation--requiring them to get up to college standards within a year, or they would be expelled. The Chancellor maintained that performing college students, and the college professors, were there to learn and pursue college education, not to coddle incoming students that had failed to learn a broad range of basic education to prepare them for college.

I remember that from back then. It seems that education and student's basic education has only declined even further in the years since then.

So, I think that is where we are at now, unfortunately.

I remember when I was a kid, my *peers* all prided themselves on our education, and knowledge, and reading. Strong literacy. Knowledge of history, literature, mythology. There was something wrong with you if you were not up to speed on Tolkien, King Arthur, Conan the Barbarian, the Crusades, Genghis Khan, the ancient Romans, Caesar, the Greeks, Achilles, and the Vikings. This was all well understood back then, by kids even.

Getting some fresh coffee now, and lighting up a good pipe.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

It's definitely the case that today's students read little, if anything, and that, among other things has had a serious impact on their writing ability, general comprehension, etc.  I routinely hand out a general info/profile sheet to my college students on the first day of class.  Among the questions are "When was the last time you read something that wasn't assigned for school and what was it?"  Many can't even come up with an answer.  Another question I ask is "If you could meet any historical figure, who would it be and why?"  Even that, many cannot come up with an answer or reply "Taylor Swift" or similar shit.

And rather than hold students accountable, the universities just keep dropping standards.  No more standardized tests because they're racist.  No more foreign language requirements because it's too hard and people can just get an app on their phone.  Hell, we have History profs here who no longer assign any reading in their classes and just let the students make their own tests!  I mean, WTAF?

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 08:04:37 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 06:09:20 PM

Quote from: Baron on January 07, 2024, 05:14:22 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 05:11:56 PM
Back then, nearly everyone was reasonably well-read, and familiar with much of history, mythology, and literature in general.

And it certainly seems different now. To what do we attribute this?

Greetings!

Hey there, Baron!

Well, I certainly think that technology has had a significant impact. research has proven, that yes, the I-Phone, video games, and such *have* in fact, greatly reduced people's attention span, reading comprehension, literacy, and general mental health.

Another factor, huge, of course, is the following generations of permissive, weak parents that failed to discipline and teach their children properly.

A third factor, I would suggest, has been the contribution of an overall decline into poor quality and mediocrity of schools and education.

Add these three factors up, and you produce a general culture that is undisciplined, frivolous, unmotivated, and functionally illiterate.

This reality is also reflected and demonstrated through numerous research over the last 20 years, especially in colleges, which demonstrate that unprecedented numbers of incoming Freshmen college students must enroll in remedial everything, because they cannot do basic mathematics, they do not know essential history, have poor reading skills, and can barely write a paragraph.

Over 20 years ago, I remember in California, the State Chancellor of the entire UC college system announced similar findings and announced new policies placing incoming Freshmen on probation--requiring them to get up to college standards within a year, or they would be expelled. The Chancellor maintained that performing college students, and the college professors, were there to learn and pursue college education, not to coddle incoming students that had failed to learn a broad range of basic education to prepare them for college.

I remember that from back then. It seems that education and student's basic education has only declined even further in the years since then.

So, I think that is where we are at now, unfortunately.

I remember when I was a kid, my *peers* all prided themselves on our education, and knowledge, and reading. Strong literacy. Knowledge of history, literature, mythology. There was something wrong with you if you were not up to speed on Tolkien, King Arthur, Conan the Barbarian, the Crusades, Genghis Khan, the ancient Romans, Caesar, the Greeks, Achilles, and the Vikings. This was all well understood back then, by kids even.

Getting some fresh coffee now, and lighting up a good pipe.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

It's definitely the case that today's students read little, if anything, and that, among other things has had a serious impact on their writing ability, general comprehension, etc.  I routinely hand out a general info/profile sheet to my college students on the first day of class.  Among the questions are "When was the last time you read something that wasn't assigned for school and what was it?"  Many can't even come up with an answer.  Another question I ask is "If you could meet any historical figure, who would it be and why?"  Even that, many cannot come up with an answer or reply "Taylor Swift" or similar shit.

And rather than hold students accountable, the universities just keep dropping standards.  No more standardized tests because they're racist.  No more foreign language requirements because it's too hard and people can just get an app on their phone.  Hell, we have History profs here who no longer assign any reading in their classes and just let the students make their own tests!  I mean, WTAF?

Greetings!

Ahh, Persimmon, my friend! Without much exaggeration, it makes one both enraged and want to weep! What we are seeing here, sir, is our culture dying. Our culture is committing cultural suicide, right before our very eyes. And the home-grown barbarians are happy and jubilant about it! All that they want to do is fuck, smoke weed, and look at their phones. Yes, past generations were also interested in these things to varying degrees, but past generations also possessed sufficient discipline and motivation to accept and pursue priorities. Furthermore, the adults in the room alternately didn't put up with BS, and always encouraged and demanded excellence.

The adults now are too busy also on their phones, or otherwise goofing off. And, well, much of the time, the adults themselves coddle the young, and enthusiastically *support* them in pursuing hedonism.

Sadly, many of the worst adults involved in overseeing this cultural degradation and suicide are teachers and professors. I've seen the Tik Tok videos--made by teachers--proudly proclaiming how they are teaching their students to embrace hedonism and Communism. Meanwhile, every other week, there is a news story about a teacher being blasted for being on ONLY FANS, or being arrested and tried for fucking their students. Or, like a recent University Chancellor or something--a couple--two huge college executives--were fired for bragging about making adult sex films and putting them online.

The college gatekeepers, faculty, and administrations are an absolute fucking mess, my friend. At virtually every level, from coast to coast, the education system is rotten, and terribly corrupt. Not just in a political or ideological sense, but in a moral sense, and in an intellectual and professional sense as well.

Dignitas. Auctoritas. Some old Roman terms that most professors were familiar with and lived by.

Nowadays, such are forgotten virtues for most.

These developments are not a passing fad--or merely the whimsical, temporary excesses of youth. They are a dynamic forming a tidal wave that is sweeping throughout society, and will have disastrous, long-term effects everywhere. Much to our woe.

For myself, well, I remember having something like 500 pages or more of reading, every week. My professors not only had the course textbook, but also 6, 8, or 10 other, additional books that were required reading. I'm exaggerating a bit, but not by much. I remember having practical armfuls of books for each class. I needed to load up my backpack and make multiple trips to my truck to get them all home with me. *Laughing*

Many of my professors were demanding, and unyielding. The general frame was, "You are in college now. You will not waste my time, or the time of your fellow students. You are expected to get with the program--or drop the class. Failure to embrace these standards will result in you being dropped from the class swiftly, and promptly."

Yeah, I had to work hard to get good grades. I worked hard, and applied myself in every class with enthusiasm, obedience, and discipline.

Most of my college professors *loved* me. I was often attending their Office Hours, engaging with them. Some, I often had lunch with--and some also became friends of mine. I was frequently challenging them, peppering them with questions, and offering my own analysis and intellectual contributions, both in class discussions, and in their scheduled Office Hours. I'd like to think that I made them feel like they were earning their pay. *Laughing* I was seldom satisfied with customary lecturing. I wanted answers. I wanted more detail, more knowledge, more truth, more analysis.

I had more than one professor tell me that they wished all of their students were like me. *Laughing*

A few, of course, didn't like me at all. Yes, I had a few professors that I was often in conflict with. Some of those debates clearly were personal to them. I think they didn't like the fact that I didn't just sit there like a baby bird, gulping down whatever they handed down. That's the way that goes though.

This entire "dumbing down" of our society is going to have permanent effects. Professors not assigning reading? Not even having tests?

Of course, that begs the question--what, then, is being taught in school? What are people paying tens of thousands of dollars for tuition for? Why are these colleges getting Government funds?

It gets personal for me--and it was personal for me when I was a student, because *I* was paying the bill. My parents, or no one else, was paying my tuition. That money came out of ME.

We can see the downstream reflections of these lack of literacy even also in our game hobby. You can see DM's complaining all the time about how stupid and illiterate many of their players are. Often, you can also hear other, smarter, maybe older and more educated players, also chiming in, lamenting how so many new players possess only the barest minimum of common sense, or literary and educational knowledge.

I hope you are enjoying some good coffee, Persimmon! It has been cold, gray, and snowing up here where I am at. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 09:43:33 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 08:04:37 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 06:09:20 PM

Quote from: Baron on January 07, 2024, 05:14:22 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 05:11:56 PM
Back then, nearly everyone was reasonably well-read, and familiar with much of history, mythology, and literature in general.

And it certainly seems different now. To what do we attribute this?

Greetings!

Hey there, Baron!

Well, I certainly think that technology has had a significant impact. research has proven, that yes, the I-Phone, video games, and such *have* in fact, greatly reduced people's attention span, reading comprehension, literacy, and general mental health.

Another factor, huge, of course, is the following generations of permissive, weak parents that failed to discipline and teach their children properly.

A third factor, I would suggest, has been the contribution of an overall decline into poor quality and mediocrity of schools and education.

Add these three factors up, and you produce a general culture that is undisciplined, frivolous, unmotivated, and functionally illiterate.

This reality is also reflected and demonstrated through numerous research over the last 20 years, especially in colleges, which demonstrate that unprecedented numbers of incoming Freshmen college students must enroll in remedial everything, because they cannot do basic mathematics, they do not know essential history, have poor reading skills, and can barely write a paragraph.

Over 20 years ago, I remember in California, the State Chancellor of the entire UC college system announced similar findings and announced new policies placing incoming Freshmen on probation--requiring them to get up to college standards within a year, or they would be expelled. The Chancellor maintained that performing college students, and the college professors, were there to learn and pursue college education, not to coddle incoming students that had failed to learn a broad range of basic education to prepare them for college.

I remember that from back then. It seems that education and student's basic education has only declined even further in the years since then.

So, I think that is where we are at now, unfortunately.

I remember when I was a kid, my *peers* all prided themselves on our education, and knowledge, and reading. Strong literacy. Knowledge of history, literature, mythology. There was something wrong with you if you were not up to speed on Tolkien, King Arthur, Conan the Barbarian, the Crusades, Genghis Khan, the ancient Romans, Caesar, the Greeks, Achilles, and the Vikings. This was all well understood back then, by kids even.

Getting some fresh coffee now, and lighting up a good pipe.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

It's definitely the case that today's students read little, if anything, and that, among other things has had a serious impact on their writing ability, general comprehension, etc.  I routinely hand out a general info/profile sheet to my college students on the first day of class.  Among the questions are "When was the last time you read something that wasn't assigned for school and what was it?"  Many can't even come up with an answer.  Another question I ask is "If you could meet any historical figure, who would it be and why?"  Even that, many cannot come up with an answer or reply "Taylor Swift" or similar shit.

And rather than hold students accountable, the universities just keep dropping standards.  No more standardized tests because they're racist.  No more foreign language requirements because it's too hard and people can just get an app on their phone.  Hell, we have History profs here who no longer assign any reading in their classes and just let the students make their own tests!  I mean, WTAF?

Greetings!

Ahh, Persimmon, my friend! Without much exaggeration, it makes one both enraged and want to weep! What we are seeing here, sir, is our culture dying. Our culture is committing cultural suicide, right before our very eyes. And the home-grown barbarians are happy and jubilant about it! All that they want to do is fuck, smoke weed, and look at their phones. Yes, past generations were also interested in these things to varying degrees, but past generations also possessed sufficient discipline and motivation to accept and pursue priorities. Furthermore, the adults in the room alternately didn't put up with BS, and always encouraged and demanded excellence.

The adults now are too busy also on their phones, or otherwise goofing off. And, well, much of the time, the adults themselves coddle the young, and enthusiastically *support* them in pursuing hedonism.

Sadly, many of the worst adults involved in overseeing this cultural degradation and suicide are teachers and professors. I've seen the Tik Tok videos--made by teachers--proudly proclaiming how they are teaching their students to embrace hedonism and Communism. Meanwhile, every other week, there is a news story about a teacher being blasted for being on ONLY FANS, or being arrested and tried for fucking their students. Or, like a recent University Chancellor or something--a couple--two huge college executives--were fired for bragging about making adult sex films and putting them online.

The college gatekeepers, faculty, and administrations are an absolute fucking mess, my friend. At virtually every level, from coast to coast, the education system is rotten, and terribly corrupt. Not just in a political or ideological sense, but in a moral sense, and in an intellectual and professional sense as well.

Dignitas. Auctoritas. Some old Roman terms that most professors were familiar with and lived by.

Nowadays, such are forgotten virtues for most.

These developments are not a passing fad--or merely the whimsical, temporary excesses of youth. They are a dynamic forming a tidal wave that is sweeping throughout society, and will have disastrous, long-term effects everywhere. Much to our woe.

For myself, well, I remember having something like 500 pages or more of reading, every week. My professors not only had the course textbook, but also 6, 8, or 10 other, additional books that were required reading. I'm exaggerating a bit, but not by much. I remember having practical armfuls of books for each class. I needed to load up my backpack and make multiple trips to my truck to get them all home with me. *Laughing*

Many of my professors were demanding, and unyielding. The general frame was, "You are in college now. You will not waste my time, or the time of your fellow students. You are expected to get with the program--or drop the class. Failure to embrace these standards will result in you being dropped from the class swiftly, and promptly."

Yeah, I had to work hard to get good grades. I worked hard, and applied myself in every class with enthusiasm, obedience, and discipline.

Most of my college professors *loved* me. I was often attending their Office Hours, engaging with them. Some, I often had lunch with--and some also became friends of mine. I was frequently challenging them, peppering them with questions, and offering my own analysis and intellectual contributions, both in class discussions, and in their scheduled Office Hours. I'd like to think that I made them feel like they were earning their pay. *Laughing* I was seldom satisfied with customary lecturing. I wanted answers. I wanted more detail, more knowledge, more truth, more analysis.

I had more than one professor tell me that they wished all of their students were like me. *Laughing*

A few, of course, didn't like me at all. Yes, I had a few professors that I was often in conflict with. Some of those debates clearly were personal to them. I think they didn't like the fact that I didn't just sit there like a baby bird, gulping down whatever they handed down. That's the way that goes though.

This entire "dumbing down" of our society is going to have permanent effects. Professors not assigning reading? Not even having tests?

Of course, that begs the question--what, then, is being taught in school? What are people paying tens of thousands of dollars for tuition for? Why are these colleges getting Government funds?

It gets personal for me--and it was personal for me when I was a student, because *I* was paying the bill. My parents, or no one else, was paying my tuition. That money came out of ME.

We can see the downstream reflections of these lack of literacy even also in our game hobby. You can see DM's complaining all the time about how stupid and illiterate many of their players are. Often, you can also hear other, smarter, maybe older and more educated players, also chiming in, lamenting how so many new players possess only the barest minimum of common sense, or literary and educational knowledge.

I hope you are enjoying some good coffee, Persimmon! It has been cold, gray, and snowing up here where I am at. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yeah, I was called out last semester by the Dean of our Honors College for assigning too much reading in a class about the literature & culture of Heian Japan, no less!  Then, quite wonderfully, at the Honors Showcase my students dominated and won the award for "Most Intellectually Engaging Class Presentation."  Several of them, including a bi-sexual liberal guy, told me that they appreciated that I was the first professor they've had here that didn't simply try to shove Leftist rhetoric down their throats but encouraged open discussion and multiple viewpoints.  I got that from students in one of my other classes as well.

Then, this past Friday, a student I had 15 years ago at a previous job emailed me out of the blue because he wanted to show his high school students a Japanese horror film I showed in class back in the day.  [FYI, the film was "Evil Dead Trap" starring the lovely Miyuki Ono].

So, yes, things are pretty fucking bad.  But there are tiny glimmers of hope still.

I was introduced to AD&D at a Boy Scout campout and took over a henchman fighter about 4 levels below the rest of the party for the adventure. Before that, I had been reading a little bit of fantasy (Tolkien - The Hobbit) but had been reading a lot of science fiction (mostly Heinlein's juveniles) and wanted to know if there were any science fiction role-playing games. So technically, literature came before gaming, but it was more of a concurrent thing.

I say concurrent, because as people would see my interest in games they would suggest books and authors for me to read. Seeing me with the Traveller Book caused teachers and scoutmasters to suggest Niven, Pournelle, Clarke, and Asimov. While seeing my D&D books brought suggestions of Robert E. Howard and Lloyd Alexander (who I probably never would have discovered at that age and been the poorer because of it).

Neither. Wargames got me into TTRPGS. The fact that I was also a fan of fantasy and SF literature made it a perfect match. But prowling hobby and book shops for wargames was where I ran across TTRPGs.

Quote from: Festus on January 08, 2024, 01:15:27 PM
Neither. Wargames got me into TTRPGS. The fact that I was also a fan of fantasy and SF literature made it a perfect match. But prowling hobby and book shops for wargames was where I ran across TTRPGs.

Cool;hence the bit about other media in the OP.

Quote from: zircher on January 07, 2024, 12:30:47 PM
Given that my introduction to D&D was via the high school library (back when you could actually sign out a room during study hall or after hours), the two are intertwined with mainly lit coming before the games.

Our local library had much the same. Unfortunately Satanic Panic was still being felt in the 80s and I got to see and experience alot of the worst behavior.

Quote from: jeff37923 on January 08, 2024, 12:45:50 AM
and Lloyd Alexander (who I probably never would have discovered at that age and been the poorer because of it).

My God I've got to read the Chronicles of Prydain before I croak.

I watched the old Hobbit and Lord of the Rings cartoons, then got into D&D. Afterwards, I starting to pick up the stuff that inspired D&D and it was an eye opener.

I was a library rat. But I never read any books that would be considered RPG-adjacent before coming into the RPG milieu, like modern fantasy (Tolkien and his copycats). My guilt pleasures were crime novels (Agatha Christie, George Simenon) and Francophone comics like Tintin. Otherwise, I read classic children books such as Robin Hood and Ivanhoe, eventually being promoted to serious literature.

RPG came by accident when I went with my father to the toys store select a Christmas present and there was a big black box with a red dragon in the cover. I got that and two Sega Mega-Drive (Genesis, for the Americans) carts. The January after Christmas was great: it was my summer vacations and I was devouring the stuff inside that box and sharing it with my best friend. I was "ready" for Zanzer Ten's dungeon soon and quickly filled out Stonefast with my own selection of monsters and traps.

It was reading RPG magazines that I came into contact with fantasy novels and I finally corrected my deficit and read Tolkien, following with Dragonlance novels, but that was a bit later, as fantasy novels weren't something easy to find in my country, except for Tolkien that had a 1970s translation. Science fiction books, that is most of my pop literature these days and it is kind of RPG-adjacent too, I discovered also via magazines, this time magazines about sci-fi pictures and TV series, that was something I always liked, since my mother loved Star Trek. I started with Neuromancer.

I read quite a bit of fantasy as a kid, but when I got into D&D it really opened my eyes to a lot of stuff I never would've known about. So I'd say RPGs got me into reading more literature. Even recently, in the last few years I'm still reading new fantasy books that I never would've known about otherwise. Then when I started playing Cyberpunk, I started reading Gibson, etc.

Some stuff I knew about prior to RPGs, like Call of Cthulhu and Lord of the Rings.

I think it was the Fighting Fantasy books that got me started (I loved "choose your adventure" books as a kid).

Nowadays I've been reading appendix N stuff, most recently ERB:

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2024/01/a-princess-of-mars.html