Posting & reading the thread on world building got me to thinking about how I got into RPGs in the first place.
My brother got an illustrated copy of The Hobbit with the images from the Rankin-Bass movie for Christmas one year. But he was a bit young for it and sometime that following year I took it with me to our family cabin in the mountains of Pennsylvania and read the whole thing in a weekend. At the time, being around 10, I had no idea Tolkien had written other books. A year or so later, I stumbled across The Two Towers in our school library. Not knowing it was the middle of the story I read it and really fell in love with Middle Earth. I read Return of the King next and Fellowship of the Ring last. FWIW Legolas was (and remains) my favorite character. I asked for the boxed set of the four books and got it the following Christmas. Meanwhile, I had heard about D&D as a few friends played, but knew little about it. Then, the year after I got LOTR, I got the Moldvay magenta box. So my first character, as you know, was an elf, modeled after Legolas, of course.
Subsequently I devoured all kinds of fantasy fiction as I gamed and the two interests really reinforced one another. Of course I got some stuff from Appendix N, but a lot of it was just going to Walden Books and grabbing whatever had a cool cover.
So how about you? Were you a fantasy fiction fan or gamer first? Or some other media, like comics? Or all of the above?
My first expose to RPGs was the AD&D Coloring Album.
https://monsterbrains.blogspot.com/2011/10/greg-irons-advanced-dungeons-and.html
I was fascinated both by the incredible art, and the sample dungeon game. I was 10 years old at the time, so my memories of what I was into are hazy. I don't think D&D got me into fantasy literature, so much as I was interested in the genre and it was an obvious fit.
Mom bought us a Red Box from a toy store when I was 9 or 10. It wasn't until I was 12 that I read my first proper fantasy novel, Magician: Apprentice by Raymond E. Feist. Funnily enough, I think Feist created the setting of the Riftwar Saga based on his home D&D game.
I wouldn't say that one lead to the other at all but I will say that books I've read shape my gaming with ideas and flavors.
My mom started reading me books almost immediately after me being born. Reading and stories have been a part of my life from the beginning.
My first brush with gaming was when I was a 2yo. My two youngest uncles were examining a hand drawn map of a dungeon and were discussing how to deal with a monster. I remember them talking about maybe trying to tunnel round it. I was utterly fascinated by it and started to ask a lot of questions. (yes, I was two and yes, I understood a lot of it) They showed me a monster manual afterwards. It all lead to me playing RPGs myself as soon as I could.
First came the Conan Movies.
Then, some history with D&D.
Then, the Lord of the Rings movies.
Then, I read the Lord of the Rings books.
Etc.
I had been reading a few "adventure books" like Mutiny on the Bounty when I was a kid. Then, I got into fantasy through my first TTRPG (Drager & Demoner, Norwegian version), I remember seeing a John Howe Tolkien calendar in the bookstore, then I picked up Lord of the Rings, and I was hooked.
Definitely books first. D&D was barely a thing at the time
I'd read Narnia, Prydain, Oz, and others, was attempting Tolkien, and started in on Dragonlance before I ever got the chance to play D&D.
I got into RPGs after I read Salvatore's Drizzt and Greenwood's Elminster books and found out they were all part of the same game setting. I liked the idea of the shared world where a bunch of people could have shared adventures.
I'd read Narnia, The Hobbit, LotR, Silmarillion, some Fritz Leiber, several Arthurian versions, a little Zelazny, including the first Amber novels, Dragon Riders of Pern, more fairy tales and myths than I can count, and probably a bunch of other things that I've since forgotten when and where I read them. Oh, and a ton of Andre Norton, almost none of which I remember now, but did make a big impression on me at the time. I think I read a Jack Vance or two before D&D, but I didn't know about Dying Earth until Appendix N.
I didn't even know that D&D was a thing, until late 1980. I had the cheap paperback American edition of LotR that was released in the mid 1970's, that I had read so many time it fell apart.
That was one side of the coin. The other side was that the Appalachian story teller "tall tales" tradition wasn't quite dead yet when I was young. So there was a lot of time spent on front porches to get out of the heat while people took turns telling the "Jack" stories, and making up their own. Our school library had quite a collection of them, along with Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill, and several other things of that kind. Plus, I loved board games.
Put all that together, and the appeal of a game where you participate in a fantasy adventure that is akin to the stories, but can go off the rails quickly like a made-up tall tale, was not something that I could ignore. Or at least I rolled a 1 on my save. :)
I got into reading when my uncle gave me a grocery bag full of sci-fi paperbacks all with their covers ripped off. But my favorite out of that was a bunch of John Carter books.
I never read any actual fantasy until after I started playing D&D.
Thinking about it now, my love of John Carter is probably why I was never satisfied with D&D combat and switched to Runequest very shortly thereafter.
Yes, and Yes.
I recall being an avid reader when I was 14-16, cutting my teeth on H.P lovecraft and Orson Scott Card. which made me aware of call of cthulhu and then by extension D&D.
After getting annoyed with 5e, I discovered the OSR, and Appendix N, and started reading that stuff, so my tabletop and book collection kind of go hand and hand.
I've read the lion's share of Appendix N before I got into D&D.
I was a voracious reader. I read all my dad's Louis Lamour books. The adventure, excitement! Then I think it was The Hobbit. But it wasn't until a friend lent me Dragons of Autumn Twilight and there was an advert at the end of the book and I'm like, oh crap, I can play this game. And that was the beginning.
For me, it was comic books first, then Time Life books and some mythology, next RPGs (D&D, Star Frontiers, and FASERIP Marvel) then "real" literature.
Actually, BattleTech did.
We bought the Macross RPG to find out why they had the same machines.
Kind of an odd question for me. Books definitely came first, but I can't really trace the causality from one to the other. I was reading Brian Jacques' Redwall series starting around the age of 4 or 5, and I guess those have to be counted as fantasy. Think I started the Lone Wolf books around the 4th grade, and those may or may not count as roleplaying. Then things get very hazy, because D&D, Magic: The Gathering, fantasy videogames (particularly Dragon Quest and Ogre Battle IIRC), Tolkien and the Dragonlance books all got introduced into my life within a very short time of each other.
In the end, I think this comes down to generational differences. For people born during or after the 80s, fantasy was just a much more prevalent thing in popular society. Hell, Pokemon was the biggest thing in the world for a couple of years in the late 90s, and that's arguably fantasy.
I know I got introduced to D&D because my best friend at the time got given it for Christmas. Why he did is kind of an interesting question, because he was noticeably less interested in fantasy than I was. He also read the Lone Wolf books, but I think the appeal for both of us actually was more about D&D's connection to history. In the early days, we were constantly homebrewing classes to make them into "historical" soldier types (according to our juvenile understanding of them): Hoplite, duelist, cataphract, dragoon and so on. I know a lot of my early campaign settings were just thinly veiled excuses to smash different historical cultures together, possibly giving some of them pointy ears to justify it still being D&D.
For me, it was RPGs first, sort of. I was interested in D&D years before I could understand and play it. My best friend in preschool in 1975 had an older brother who played D&D, and older brothers were cool. So when we played "Let's Pretend", we called it "playing D&D".
I later got into SF and fantasy books, but a lot of my taste in grade school was terrible, like Piers Anthony. It wasn't until undergrad that I started getting better read in SF and fantasy.
edit: oops wrong thread for the reply i posted, trying again:
It was games first for me, I'd be an unread drunk retard if not for rpgs and dice, which forced me to learn to read better and then look stuff up...like, wtf is brigadine? better look it up...a roman market stall would look like...better look it up, and so on.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 03, 2024, 02:22:12 PM
My first expose to RPGs was the AD&D Coloring Album.
https://monsterbrains.blogspot.com/2011/10/greg-irons-advanced-dungeons-and.html
I was fascinated both by the incredible art, and the sample dungeon game. I was 10 years old at the time, so my memories of what I was into are hazy. I don't think D&D got me into fantasy literature, so much as I was interested in the genre and it was an obvious fit.
Classic Babboon-headed hobgoblins even.
Books and comics got me into RPGs. And playing in school social sims which were doing the rounds around the same time.
The John Carter of Mars books in particular. And the At the Earths Core series being another.
I remember seeing the The Hobbit (Rankin-Bass) when it was televised in the 70s. That's the first "fantasy" media that I remember blowing me away. Later I found a copy of the novel at a garage sale for 15 cents, and I read that many times. Luckily for me, my father was also a sci-fi and fantasy fiction fan, and he had several shelves full of paperback fantasy and sci-fi novels (Burroughs, Herbert, Howard, Heinlein, Moorcock, Tolkien, a big collection of yellow-spined DAW paperbacks, many more). And it was actually my father that introduced me to D&D. I had heard about it at school, but never played it, and I mentioned it to my parents. To my surprise, my dad had recently acquired a copy of the Holmes basic set, and one evening he created a dungeon (the dungeon of the evil wizard, Kraylor) and ran me through it (I played multiple characters). My elf was slain by a giant spider, but my other characters (several dwarves and a human warrior, if I recall correctly) made it out laden with treasure. Dad didn't stick with it, but I was hooked for life.
Quote from: jhkim on January 03, 2024, 09:28:11 PMI later got into SF and fantasy books, but a lot of my taste in grade school was terrible, like Piers Anthony. It wasn't until undergrad that I started getting better read in SF and fantasy.
Reading Piers Anthony is an odd experience. Most everything he wrote was in trilogies and series, and frequently the first book was great. After that the quality plummeted. I have to wonder if he hired ghostwriters for the later books.
Quote from: Mishihari on January 04, 2024, 04:11:19 AM
Quote from: jhkim on January 03, 2024, 09:28:11 PMI later got into SF and fantasy books, but a lot of my taste in grade school was terrible, like Piers Anthony. It wasn't until undergrad that I started getting better read in SF and fantasy.
Reading Piers Anthony is an odd experience. Most everything he wrote was in trilogies and series, and frequently the first book was great. After that the quality plummeted. I have to wonder if he hired ghostwriters for the later books.
Even his one-offs are odd. What I found was that alot of his stories end in an unsatisfactory manner one way or another. Or they go off on some weirdass tangent.
Video games got me into TTRPGs (or more precisely, a friend of mine after I brought up NES's Dragon Warrior while discussing video games). I didn't even read anything or care about academic stuff till I got into TTRPGs (I didn't grow up in the most nurturing environment and school was like jail to me). They were basically the reason I started reading. First novel I ever read was The Verdant Passage, first book of Dark Sun's Prism Pentad series.
for me, personally, computer rpgs were first. then a colleague who ran an AD&D game got me to try it. and these days i read about games more than i actually play >_>
I'm surprised by the diversity of directions people came into the hobby from. I started with fantasy books and kind of assumed most folks did the same.
Now I'm wondering if this has any effect on how we play the games. I play primarily to go sightseeing in the fantasy worlds I read about. If someone else is playing to reenact the combats from their video game in a more flexible form, frex, we're going to have very different goals and approaches to play.
I also think it's generational to a fair degree. Older people like me almost certainly read a lot more books than younger generations when we were kids (as well as currently). And we didn't have all these MMORPGs and console games to introduce us to D&D and other RPGs and their tropes. Of course this is also why newer editions of D&D have become more video-gamey with lame ass mechanics like short and long rests.
Yes - Conan and Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser.
I started with:
- Tolkien. My friends and I were all deep into the lore. In retrospect, the love for Tolkien's worldbuilding is probably the thing that most echoed into my RPG play
- ERB
- Buscema's Conan
We rolled up our first characters in the Summer of '77. Mine was a Thief named Orion.
The Rankin/Bass Hobbit movie came out a few months later,
nearly simultaneously with the AD&D Monster Manual. Coincidence? I think not.
I learned of REH and Leiber through Appendix N in '78, and devoured it. Followed by Vance, Dunsany, and the rest.
Literature came first for me. Before starting D&D in the late 70's, I had read many fantasy/sci-fi novels and short stories. That allowed me to develop a sense of genre which is still the foundation of any campaign I run. When recruiting for an online campaign, I ask applicants to recommend to me a novel they have read, preferably something which has never been made into a movie. A fair number admit that they have never read anything. It makes me sad to think their conception of a fantasy world might be defined by the official D&D settings, most of which are a vanilla-flavored gray paste compared to the individual worlds of Appendix N.
Literature first, but it was more than that. I had various interests as a little kid -- knights and castles, pirates, dinosaurs, ghosts and monsters. All of these things naturally fit into D&D, as I would later learn. Also loved Greek mythology and what little Norse mythology I could find, and fairy tales. So of course, old monster movies and Ray Harryhausen films were my favorite things to watch. I had noticed a book called The Hobbit at my school library and it looked intriguing, but before I could read it the Rankin/Bass cartoon of it came out and I really loved that so I read the book, then LOTR. I think I had read three or so Conan stories and couple of the comics before I discovered D&D. A cousin gave me the magenta Moldvay set for Christmas in 1981 (I believe) and I've been a fan of RPGs ever since. D&D is probably what led me to certain fiction though, like Leiber and Moorcock, and to explore mythology and folk tales of other cultures.
Oh, and while it didn't lead to my gaming but was rather a result of it, I'd also like to recommend the excellent AD&D coloring book. That thing is a marvel and a treasure. If you can look at that and not immediately want to GAME, you're already dead!
I grew up in the 60s, so literature first. From fairy tales to adventure to mysteries to horror to mythology to science fiction and fantasy. I was an advanced reader from an early age. I read The Hobbit while I was still in grade school. Absolutely no one knew what I was talking about. I came to love maps. I could draw the map from The Hobbit from memory, and made up my own.
I read a few comics, mostly horror and science fiction. I watched Star Trek's original broadcasts. I followed the space program, collected weekly photos from my local grocery store and put them into my collector's album. I also built models and flew Estes model rockets.
I used to stare at the Avalon Hill games in the store, imagining they had little tanks and planes inside. I discovered Strategy and Tactics magazine and began playing hex-and-chit. I lived just outside New York City and attended conventions in the 70s. I was in Trek and SF&F fandom. I got Peter Cushing and (Vampirella) Barbara Leigh's autographs at a Creation con. I sat and observed a D&D game at a convention in '75. I ordered 25mm Middle Earth minis. I bought the Dungeon board game, then my younger brother bought Holmes D&D. I got in a regular gaming group and played a bit of OD&D before we migrated to 1e AD&D as it came out. Bought and played Star Fleet Battles in '79. Started my own 1e AD&D campaign with JG Wilderlands in 1980, bought and ran Gamma World and Classic Traveller in '81. Set for life. I've blogged about my whole journey through fandom and gaming here: https://themichlinguide.wordpress.com/2021/03/01/a-historical-overview-of-role-playing-from-the-trenches-my-life-with-rpgs/ (https://themichlinguide.wordpress.com/2021/03/01/a-historical-overview-of-role-playing-from-the-trenches-my-life-with-rpgs/)
Definitely literature (fantasy and horror), comics and movies.
A comic book store I used to go to had the original 'white box' and I asked the owner about it. He gave some lame description that really didn't explain what it was, so at first I thought it was a board game. They also carried a few Avalon Hill board games and Empire of the Petal Throne. I remember when they got the Holmes box in, and I got that and introduced my friends to it.
Quote from: Mishihari on January 04, 2024, 01:41:31 PM
I'm surprised by the diversity of directions people came into the hobby from. I started with fantasy books and kind of assumed most folks did the same.
Now I'm wondering if this has any effect on how we play the games. I play primarily to go sightseeing in the fantasy worlds I read about. If someone else is playing to reenact the combats from their video game in a more flexible form, frex, we're going to have very different goals and approaches to play.
I love the sightseeing aspects of RPGs but rarely get enough of it. I think HP Lovecraft was a part of that ideal as several of his stories had some very evocative travelogues of the lands.
Fantasy and Sci-fi Liturature and playing D&D were pretty much a parallel entry for me that derived from He-Man and the D&D and Dragon's Lair cartoons (along with memories of Thundarr the Barbarian from just a bit before) when I was about 10 years old... with a small bit of further parallel entry in discovering the existence of Battletech that one of my older second cousins played coinciding with my at the time love of both Transformers and Mighty Orbots.
My first major fantasy lit was a pair of boxed sets of the first six Xanth novels (three per set) which came to me the same year at Christmas (whereas I got the Red Box and the first of the Dragonlance modules that prior May on a birthday shopping trip to Children's Palace).
Reading books didn't really lead me to RPGs. I was/am heavily into reading before RPGs though.
But I didn't really even know about RPGs wway back in the late 70s/early 80s.
No internet to find out about it.
I wasn't involved in the RPG community.
I discovered RPGs, when a gaming store, specialising in RPGs and boardgames opened up near where I lived.
My first RPG was DnD that the shop were ruinning sessions of.
I'm old enough that I had already read a fair amount of fantasy before I encountered D&D.
I was an early reader, and started out with the Narnia books in grade school, and then read The Hobbit, and then Lord of the Rings. The latter was a challenging read for me at the time, and it took me a couple tries over a couple years before I made it through The Two Towers. Basically, I read through Fellowship, and ground to a halt somewhere in The Two Towers, and gave up until the next summer when I was really bored, and got a little farther, maybe to Shelob, and then the next time, I finally made it through The Two Towers and devoured Return of the King in a single day. I also read a bunch of the Prydain books around the same time.
I had also started reading the Heinlein juvenile SF novels, and had polished off most of them in the school library by that point.
I didn't encounter Dungeons and Dragons until I was in junior high school. This was around 1982, when the game had become a mainstream craze. (The original boxed set was used as a party game, similar to How to Host a Murder games later on.) Believe it or not, a bunch of the popular girls talked our English teacher into allowing them to run it as a special one-shot during class, because they were able to convince her it was educational! After that, my circle of friends played the game on and off for a year or two. (Alas, the popular girls had moved on to other pursuits.) I started playing again in college, and have continued on and off ever since.
Books came first (Howard, Tolkein, etc.) and then came the gaming after being properly primed.
Given that my introduction to D&D was via the high school library (back when you could actually sign out a room during study hall or after hours), the two are intertwined with mainly lit coming before the games.
I read books first, but I don't think that I would actually view the two as connected in the slightest. Yeah, I read Tolkien and Lewis in middle school, but my bread and butter was actually classic science fiction, like Jules Vernes, Heinlein, and Pournelle, and I remember reading and re-reading Aldous Huxley's Brave New World several times through high school.
My first RPG experience was D&D 3e, and I hadn't read any novels in any of the D&D settings. Then I played Call of C'thulu. I did eventually read Lovecraft, but that was years after playing Call of C'thulu for the first time. By then I was already familiar with a half-dozen RPGs. Basically, my RPG experiences do not line up with my literature experiences. The RPG settings I like have nothing to do with the literature settings I enjoy, and I think the two--RPGs and literature--are sufficiently different that good worlds in one genre are probably mediocre worlds in the other.
Greetings!
Well, did literature lead me into RPG's?
No.
I had read books about Roman, Greek, Celtic, and Norse mythology and history, before I was in the 5th grade in gradeschool. My mother had also read the Bible to me often.
Somewhere in the 5th grade, I read The Hobbit. Shortly after that, my best friend at the time had discovered D&D somehow and introduced the game to me.
Of course, however, playing D&D certainly encouraged and promoted further reading and study of history and mythology. I quickly read Bulfinch's Mythology, the Arthurian Tales, and the Silmarillion. I had been raised to love books, reading, and literature, so such habits simply became even more embraced.
At least back in the day, there definitely seemed to be a synergistic feedback loop between RPG's and reading. All of my friends, likewise, were either already into literature like I was, or soon were drawn into becoming fans shortly after being introduced to D&D.
Back then, nearly everyone was reasonably well-read, and familiar with much of history, mythology, and literature in general.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 05:11:56 PM
Back then, nearly everyone was reasonably well-read, and familiar with much of history, mythology, and literature in general.
And it certainly seems different now. To what do we attribute this?
Quote from: Baron on January 07, 2024, 05:14:22 PM
Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 05:11:56 PM
Back then, nearly everyone was reasonably well-read, and familiar with much of history, mythology, and literature in general.
And it certainly seems different now. To what do we attribute this?
Greetings!
Hey there, Baron!
Well, I certainly think that technology has had a significant impact. research has proven, that yes, the I-Phone, video games, and such *have* in fact, greatly reduced people's attention span, reading comprehension, literacy, and general mental health.
Another factor, huge, of course, is the following generations of permissive, weak parents that failed to discipline and teach their children properly.
A third factor, I would suggest, has been the contribution of an overall decline into poor quality and mediocrity of schools and education.
Add these three factors up, and you produce a general culture that is undisciplined, frivolous, unmotivated, and functionally illiterate.
This reality is also reflected and demonstrated through numerous research over the last 20 years, especially in colleges, which demonstrate that unprecedented numbers of incoming Freshmen college students must enroll in remedial everything, because they cannot do basic mathematics, they do not know essential history, have poor reading skills, and can barely write a paragraph.
Over 20 years ago, I remember in California, the State Chancellor of the entire UC college system announced similar findings and announced new policies placing incoming Freshmen on probation--requiring them to get up to college standards within a year, or they would be expelled. The Chancellor maintained that performing college students, and the college professors, were there to learn and pursue college education, not to coddle incoming students that had failed to learn a broad range of basic education to prepare them for college.
I remember that from back then. It seems that education and student's basic education has only declined even further in the years since then.
So, I think that is where we are at now, unfortunately.
I remember when I was a kid, my *peers* all prided themselves on our education, and knowledge, and reading. Strong literacy. Knowledge of history, literature, mythology. There was something wrong with you if you were not up to speed on Tolkien, King Arthur, Conan the Barbarian, the Crusades, Genghis Khan, the ancient Romans, Caesar, the Greeks, Achilles, and the Vikings. This was all well understood back then, by kids even.
Getting some fresh coffee now, and lighting up a good pipe. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Yes and no. Yes because of my older brother and his collection of classic fantasy lit with cool covers. But no, because he introduced D&D 1e to me early after I was taken with his 'Deities & Demigods' book -- so I got skipped to the front of the line as it were. I didn't like my first dingeon crawl with him. >:( Perhaps I was still too young then to handle loss and failure.
Later from Choose Your Own Adventure, Fighting Fantasy, Intergalactic Spy, etc I got more curious. And after video games like Miracle Warriors and Y's even moreso into the classic fantasy literature. But it took a few more years to get into D&D & rpgs in general, and for college to make it stick. (Then a long hiatus for school & nightlife, and finally a mature return appreciating what I didn't when I was younger.) ;D
Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 06:09:20 PM
Quote from: Baron on January 07, 2024, 05:14:22 PM
Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 05:11:56 PM
Back then, nearly everyone was reasonably well-read, and familiar with much of history, mythology, and literature in general.
And it certainly seems different now. To what do we attribute this?
Greetings!
Hey there, Baron!
Well, I certainly think that technology has had a significant impact. research has proven, that yes, the I-Phone, video games, and such *have* in fact, greatly reduced people's attention span, reading comprehension, literacy, and general mental health.
Another factor, huge, of course, is the following generations of permissive, weak parents that failed to discipline and teach their children properly.
A third factor, I would suggest, has been the contribution of an overall decline into poor quality and mediocrity of schools and education.
Add these three factors up, and you produce a general culture that is undisciplined, frivolous, unmotivated, and functionally illiterate.
This reality is also reflected and demonstrated through numerous research over the last 20 years, especially in colleges, which demonstrate that unprecedented numbers of incoming Freshmen college students must enroll in remedial everything, because they cannot do basic mathematics, they do not know essential history, have poor reading skills, and can barely write a paragraph.
Over 20 years ago, I remember in California, the State Chancellor of the entire UC college system announced similar findings and announced new policies placing incoming Freshmen on probation--requiring them to get up to college standards within a year, or they would be expelled. The Chancellor maintained that performing college students, and the college professors, were there to learn and pursue college education, not to coddle incoming students that had failed to learn a broad range of basic education to prepare them for college.
I remember that from back then. It seems that education and student's basic education has only declined even further in the years since then.
So, I think that is where we are at now, unfortunately.
I remember when I was a kid, my *peers* all prided themselves on our education, and knowledge, and reading. Strong literacy. Knowledge of history, literature, mythology. There was something wrong with you if you were not up to speed on Tolkien, King Arthur, Conan the Barbarian, the Crusades, Genghis Khan, the ancient Romans, Caesar, the Greeks, Achilles, and the Vikings. This was all well understood back then, by kids even.
Getting some fresh coffee now, and lighting up a good pipe. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It's definitely the case that today's students read little, if anything, and that, among other things has had a serious impact on their writing ability, general comprehension, etc. I routinely hand out a general info/profile sheet to my college students on the first day of class. Among the questions are "When was the last time you read something that wasn't assigned for school and what was it?" Many can't even come up with an answer. Another question I ask is "If you could meet any historical figure, who would it be and why?" Even that, many cannot come up with an answer or reply "Taylor Swift" or similar shit.
And rather than hold students accountable, the universities just keep dropping standards. No more standardized tests because they're racist. No more foreign language requirements because it's too hard and people can just get an app on their phone. Hell, we have History profs here who no longer assign any reading in their classes and just let the students make their own tests! I mean, WTAF?
Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 08:04:37 PM
Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 06:09:20 PM
Quote from: Baron on January 07, 2024, 05:14:22 PM
Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 05:11:56 PM
Back then, nearly everyone was reasonably well-read, and familiar with much of history, mythology, and literature in general.
And it certainly seems different now. To what do we attribute this?
Greetings!
Hey there, Baron!
Well, I certainly think that technology has had a significant impact. research has proven, that yes, the I-Phone, video games, and such *have* in fact, greatly reduced people's attention span, reading comprehension, literacy, and general mental health.
Another factor, huge, of course, is the following generations of permissive, weak parents that failed to discipline and teach their children properly.
A third factor, I would suggest, has been the contribution of an overall decline into poor quality and mediocrity of schools and education.
Add these three factors up, and you produce a general culture that is undisciplined, frivolous, unmotivated, and functionally illiterate.
This reality is also reflected and demonstrated through numerous research over the last 20 years, especially in colleges, which demonstrate that unprecedented numbers of incoming Freshmen college students must enroll in remedial everything, because they cannot do basic mathematics, they do not know essential history, have poor reading skills, and can barely write a paragraph.
Over 20 years ago, I remember in California, the State Chancellor of the entire UC college system announced similar findings and announced new policies placing incoming Freshmen on probation--requiring them to get up to college standards within a year, or they would be expelled. The Chancellor maintained that performing college students, and the college professors, were there to learn and pursue college education, not to coddle incoming students that had failed to learn a broad range of basic education to prepare them for college.
I remember that from back then. It seems that education and student's basic education has only declined even further in the years since then.
So, I think that is where we are at now, unfortunately.
I remember when I was a kid, my *peers* all prided themselves on our education, and knowledge, and reading. Strong literacy. Knowledge of history, literature, mythology. There was something wrong with you if you were not up to speed on Tolkien, King Arthur, Conan the Barbarian, the Crusades, Genghis Khan, the ancient Romans, Caesar, the Greeks, Achilles, and the Vikings. This was all well understood back then, by kids even.
Getting some fresh coffee now, and lighting up a good pipe. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It's definitely the case that today's students read little, if anything, and that, among other things has had a serious impact on their writing ability, general comprehension, etc. I routinely hand out a general info/profile sheet to my college students on the first day of class. Among the questions are "When was the last time you read something that wasn't assigned for school and what was it?" Many can't even come up with an answer. Another question I ask is "If you could meet any historical figure, who would it be and why?" Even that, many cannot come up with an answer or reply "Taylor Swift" or similar shit.
And rather than hold students accountable, the universities just keep dropping standards. No more standardized tests because they're racist. No more foreign language requirements because it's too hard and people can just get an app on their phone. Hell, we have History profs here who no longer assign any reading in their classes and just let the students make their own tests! I mean, WTAF?
Greetings!
Ahh, Persimmon, my friend! Without much exaggeration, it makes one both enraged and want to weep! What we are seeing here, sir, is our culture dying. Our culture is committing cultural suicide, right before our very eyes. And the home-grown barbarians are happy and jubilant about it! All that they want to do is fuck, smoke weed, and look at their phones. Yes, past generations were also interested in these things to varying degrees, but past generations also possessed sufficient discipline and motivation to accept and pursue priorities. Furthermore, the adults in the room alternately didn't put up with BS, and always encouraged and demanded excellence.
The adults now are too busy also on their phones, or otherwise goofing off. And, well, much of the time, the adults themselves coddle the young, and enthusiastically *support* them in pursuing hedonism.
Sadly, many of the worst adults involved in overseeing this cultural degradation and suicide are teachers and professors. I've seen the Tik Tok videos--made by teachers--proudly proclaiming how they are teaching their students to embrace hedonism and Communism. Meanwhile, every other week, there is a news story about a teacher being blasted for being on ONLY FANS, or being arrested and tried for fucking their students. Or, like a recent University Chancellor or something--a couple--two huge college executives--were fired for bragging about making adult sex films and putting them online.
The college gatekeepers, faculty, and administrations are an absolute fucking mess, my friend. At virtually every level, from coast to coast, the education system is rotten, and terribly corrupt. Not just in a political or ideological sense, but in a moral sense, and in an intellectual and professional sense as well.
Dignitas. Auctoritas. Some old Roman terms that most professors were familiar with and lived by.
Nowadays, such are forgotten virtues for most.
These developments are not a passing fad--or merely the whimsical, temporary excesses of youth. They are a dynamic forming a tidal wave that is sweeping throughout society, and will have disastrous, long-term effects everywhere. Much to our woe.
For myself, well, I remember having something like 500 pages or more of reading, every week. My professors not only had the course textbook, but also 6, 8, or 10 other, additional books that were required reading. I'm exaggerating a bit, but not by much. I remember having practical armfuls of books for each class. I needed to load up my backpack and make multiple trips to my truck to get them all home with me. *Laughing*
Many of my professors were demanding, and unyielding. The general frame was, "You are in college now. You will not waste my time, or the time of your fellow students. You are expected to get with the program--or drop the class. Failure to embrace these standards will result in you being dropped from the class swiftly, and promptly."
Yeah, I had to work hard to get good grades. I worked hard, and applied myself in every class with enthusiasm, obedience, and discipline.
Most of my college professors *loved* me. I was often attending their Office Hours, engaging with them. Some, I often had lunch with--and some also became friends of mine. I was frequently challenging them, peppering them with questions, and offering my own analysis and intellectual contributions, both in class discussions, and in their scheduled Office Hours. I'd like to think that I made them feel like they were earning their pay. *Laughing* I was seldom satisfied with customary lecturing. I wanted answers. I wanted more detail, more knowledge, more truth, more analysis.
I had more than one professor tell me that they wished all of their students were like me. *Laughing*
A few, of course, didn't like me at all. Yes, I had a few professors that I was often in conflict with. Some of those debates clearly were personal to them. I think they didn't like the fact that I didn't just sit there like a baby bird, gulping down whatever they handed down. That's the way that goes though.
This entire "dumbing down" of our society is going to have permanent effects. Professors not assigning reading? Not even having tests?
Of course, that begs the question--what, then, is being taught in school? What are people paying tens of thousands of dollars for tuition for? Why are these colleges getting Government funds?
It gets personal for me--and it was personal for me when I was a student, because *I* was paying the bill. My parents, or no one else, was paying my tuition. That money came out of ME.
We can see the downstream reflections of these lack of literacy even also in our game hobby. You can see DM's complaining all the time about how stupid and illiterate many of their players are. Often, you can also hear other, smarter, maybe older and more educated players, also chiming in, lamenting how so many new players possess only the barest minimum of common sense, or literary and educational knowledge.
I hope you are enjoying some good coffee, Persimmon! It has been cold, gray, and snowing up here where I am at. *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 09:43:33 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on January 07, 2024, 08:04:37 PM
Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 06:09:20 PM
Quote from: Baron on January 07, 2024, 05:14:22 PM
Quote from: SHARK on January 07, 2024, 05:11:56 PM
Back then, nearly everyone was reasonably well-read, and familiar with much of history, mythology, and literature in general.
And it certainly seems different now. To what do we attribute this?
Greetings!
Hey there, Baron!
Well, I certainly think that technology has had a significant impact. research has proven, that yes, the I-Phone, video games, and such *have* in fact, greatly reduced people's attention span, reading comprehension, literacy, and general mental health.
Another factor, huge, of course, is the following generations of permissive, weak parents that failed to discipline and teach their children properly.
A third factor, I would suggest, has been the contribution of an overall decline into poor quality and mediocrity of schools and education.
Add these three factors up, and you produce a general culture that is undisciplined, frivolous, unmotivated, and functionally illiterate.
This reality is also reflected and demonstrated through numerous research over the last 20 years, especially in colleges, which demonstrate that unprecedented numbers of incoming Freshmen college students must enroll in remedial everything, because they cannot do basic mathematics, they do not know essential history, have poor reading skills, and can barely write a paragraph.
Over 20 years ago, I remember in California, the State Chancellor of the entire UC college system announced similar findings and announced new policies placing incoming Freshmen on probation--requiring them to get up to college standards within a year, or they would be expelled. The Chancellor maintained that performing college students, and the college professors, were there to learn and pursue college education, not to coddle incoming students that had failed to learn a broad range of basic education to prepare them for college.
I remember that from back then. It seems that education and student's basic education has only declined even further in the years since then.
So, I think that is where we are at now, unfortunately.
I remember when I was a kid, my *peers* all prided themselves on our education, and knowledge, and reading. Strong literacy. Knowledge of history, literature, mythology. There was something wrong with you if you were not up to speed on Tolkien, King Arthur, Conan the Barbarian, the Crusades, Genghis Khan, the ancient Romans, Caesar, the Greeks, Achilles, and the Vikings. This was all well understood back then, by kids even.
Getting some fresh coffee now, and lighting up a good pipe. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It's definitely the case that today's students read little, if anything, and that, among other things has had a serious impact on their writing ability, general comprehension, etc. I routinely hand out a general info/profile sheet to my college students on the first day of class. Among the questions are "When was the last time you read something that wasn't assigned for school and what was it?" Many can't even come up with an answer. Another question I ask is "If you could meet any historical figure, who would it be and why?" Even that, many cannot come up with an answer or reply "Taylor Swift" or similar shit.
And rather than hold students accountable, the universities just keep dropping standards. No more standardized tests because they're racist. No more foreign language requirements because it's too hard and people can just get an app on their phone. Hell, we have History profs here who no longer assign any reading in their classes and just let the students make their own tests! I mean, WTAF?
Greetings!
Ahh, Persimmon, my friend! Without much exaggeration, it makes one both enraged and want to weep! What we are seeing here, sir, is our culture dying. Our culture is committing cultural suicide, right before our very eyes. And the home-grown barbarians are happy and jubilant about it! All that they want to do is fuck, smoke weed, and look at their phones. Yes, past generations were also interested in these things to varying degrees, but past generations also possessed sufficient discipline and motivation to accept and pursue priorities. Furthermore, the adults in the room alternately didn't put up with BS, and always encouraged and demanded excellence.
The adults now are too busy also on their phones, or otherwise goofing off. And, well, much of the time, the adults themselves coddle the young, and enthusiastically *support* them in pursuing hedonism.
Sadly, many of the worst adults involved in overseeing this cultural degradation and suicide are teachers and professors. I've seen the Tik Tok videos--made by teachers--proudly proclaiming how they are teaching their students to embrace hedonism and Communism. Meanwhile, every other week, there is a news story about a teacher being blasted for being on ONLY FANS, or being arrested and tried for fucking their students. Or, like a recent University Chancellor or something--a couple--two huge college executives--were fired for bragging about making adult sex films and putting them online.
The college gatekeepers, faculty, and administrations are an absolute fucking mess, my friend. At virtually every level, from coast to coast, the education system is rotten, and terribly corrupt. Not just in a political or ideological sense, but in a moral sense, and in an intellectual and professional sense as well.
Dignitas. Auctoritas. Some old Roman terms that most professors were familiar with and lived by.
Nowadays, such are forgotten virtues for most.
These developments are not a passing fad--or merely the whimsical, temporary excesses of youth. They are a dynamic forming a tidal wave that is sweeping throughout society, and will have disastrous, long-term effects everywhere. Much to our woe.
For myself, well, I remember having something like 500 pages or more of reading, every week. My professors not only had the course textbook, but also 6, 8, or 10 other, additional books that were required reading. I'm exaggerating a bit, but not by much. I remember having practical armfuls of books for each class. I needed to load up my backpack and make multiple trips to my truck to get them all home with me. *Laughing*
Many of my professors were demanding, and unyielding. The general frame was, "You are in college now. You will not waste my time, or the time of your fellow students. You are expected to get with the program--or drop the class. Failure to embrace these standards will result in you being dropped from the class swiftly, and promptly."
Yeah, I had to work hard to get good grades. I worked hard, and applied myself in every class with enthusiasm, obedience, and discipline.
Most of my college professors *loved* me. I was often attending their Office Hours, engaging with them. Some, I often had lunch with--and some also became friends of mine. I was frequently challenging them, peppering them with questions, and offering my own analysis and intellectual contributions, both in class discussions, and in their scheduled Office Hours. I'd like to think that I made them feel like they were earning their pay. *Laughing* I was seldom satisfied with customary lecturing. I wanted answers. I wanted more detail, more knowledge, more truth, more analysis.
I had more than one professor tell me that they wished all of their students were like me. *Laughing*
A few, of course, didn't like me at all. Yes, I had a few professors that I was often in conflict with. Some of those debates clearly were personal to them. I think they didn't like the fact that I didn't just sit there like a baby bird, gulping down whatever they handed down. That's the way that goes though.
This entire "dumbing down" of our society is going to have permanent effects. Professors not assigning reading? Not even having tests?
Of course, that begs the question--what, then, is being taught in school? What are people paying tens of thousands of dollars for tuition for? Why are these colleges getting Government funds?
It gets personal for me--and it was personal for me when I was a student, because *I* was paying the bill. My parents, or no one else, was paying my tuition. That money came out of ME.
We can see the downstream reflections of these lack of literacy even also in our game hobby. You can see DM's complaining all the time about how stupid and illiterate many of their players are. Often, you can also hear other, smarter, maybe older and more educated players, also chiming in, lamenting how so many new players possess only the barest minimum of common sense, or literary and educational knowledge.
I hope you are enjoying some good coffee, Persimmon! It has been cold, gray, and snowing up here where I am at. *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Yeah, I was called out last semester by the Dean of our Honors College for assigning too much reading in a class about the literature & culture of Heian Japan, no less! Then, quite wonderfully, at the Honors Showcase my students dominated and won the award for "Most Intellectually Engaging Class Presentation." Several of them, including a bi-sexual liberal guy, told me that they appreciated that I was the first professor they've had here that didn't simply try to shove Leftist rhetoric down their throats but encouraged open discussion and multiple viewpoints. I got that from students in one of my other classes as well.
Then, this past Friday, a student I had 15 years ago at a previous job emailed me out of the blue because he wanted to show his high school students a Japanese horror film I showed in class back in the day. [FYI, the film was "Evil Dead Trap" starring the lovely Miyuki Ono].
So, yes, things are pretty fucking bad. But there are tiny glimmers of hope still.
I was introduced to AD&D at a Boy Scout campout and took over a henchman fighter about 4 levels below the rest of the party for the adventure. Before that, I had been reading a little bit of fantasy (Tolkien - The Hobbit) but had been reading a lot of science fiction (mostly Heinlein's juveniles) and wanted to know if there were any science fiction role-playing games. So technically, literature came before gaming, but it was more of a concurrent thing.
I say concurrent, because as people would see my interest in games they would suggest books and authors for me to read. Seeing me with the Traveller Book caused teachers and scoutmasters to suggest Niven, Pournelle, Clarke, and Asimov. While seeing my D&D books brought suggestions of Robert E. Howard and Lloyd Alexander (who I probably never would have discovered at that age and been the poorer because of it).
Neither. Wargames got me into TTRPGS. The fact that I was also a fan of fantasy and SF literature made it a perfect match. But prowling hobby and book shops for wargames was where I ran across TTRPGs.
Quote from: Festus on January 08, 2024, 01:15:27 PM
Neither. Wargames got me into TTRPGS. The fact that I was also a fan of fantasy and SF literature made it a perfect match. But prowling hobby and book shops for wargames was where I ran across TTRPGs.
Cool;hence the bit about other media in the OP.
Quote from: zircher on January 07, 2024, 12:30:47 PM
Given that my introduction to D&D was via the high school library (back when you could actually sign out a room during study hall or after hours), the two are intertwined with mainly lit coming before the games.
Our local library had much the same. Unfortunately Satanic Panic was still being felt in the 80s and I got to see and experience alot of the worst behavior.
Quote from: jeff37923 on January 08, 2024, 12:45:50 AM
and Lloyd Alexander (who I probably never would have discovered at that age and been the poorer because of it).
My God I've got to read the Chronicles of Prydain before I croak.
I watched the old Hobbit and Lord of the Rings cartoons, then got into D&D. Afterwards, I starting to pick up the stuff that inspired D&D and it was an eye opener.
I was a library rat. But I never read any books that would be considered RPG-adjacent before coming into the RPG milieu, like modern fantasy (Tolkien and his copycats). My guilt pleasures were crime novels (Agatha Christie, George Simenon) and Francophone comics like Tintin. Otherwise, I read classic children books such as Robin Hood and Ivanhoe, eventually being promoted to serious literature.
RPG came by accident when I went with my father to the toys store select a Christmas present and there was a big black box with a red dragon in the cover. I got that and two Sega Mega-Drive (Genesis, for the Americans) carts. The January after Christmas was great: it was my summer vacations and I was devouring the stuff inside that box and sharing it with my best friend. I was "ready" for Zanzer Ten's dungeon soon and quickly filled out Stonefast with my own selection of monsters and traps.
It was reading RPG magazines that I came into contact with fantasy novels and I finally corrected my deficit and read Tolkien, following with Dragonlance novels, but that was a bit later, as fantasy novels weren't something easy to find in my country, except for Tolkien that had a 1970s translation. Science fiction books, that is most of my pop literature these days and it is kind of RPG-adjacent too, I discovered also via magazines, this time magazines about sci-fi pictures and TV series, that was something I always liked, since my mother loved Star Trek. I started with Neuromancer.
I read quite a bit of fantasy as a kid, but when I got into D&D it really opened my eyes to a lot of stuff I never would've known about. So I'd say RPGs got me into reading more literature. Even recently, in the last few years I'm still reading new fantasy books that I never would've known about otherwise. Then when I started playing Cyberpunk, I started reading Gibson, etc.
Some stuff I knew about prior to RPGs, like Call of Cthulhu and Lord of the Rings.
I think it was the Fighting Fantasy books that got me started (I loved "choose your adventure" books as a kid).
Nowadays I've been reading appendix N stuff, most recently ERB:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2024/01/a-princess-of-mars.html