TheRPGSite

Okay, I know what a dicepool is. However, having only ever played DnD (and having a copy of GURPS:Hellboy and the ADnD monster manual) I haven't actually used them.

I've heard them described as clunky, usually in reference to Exalted. I've also heard it said that Exalted goes as high as 17 or 30 dice.

Anyway, I'm writing a game that uses d10 dicepools* (though generally only 5d10... a max of around 10d10) and I wanted to know what everyone thought about them. Or quick run throughs of existing systems and what you think about those; including what worked, what sucked, what they should have done, etc.

*d10s because after d6s and before d20s, it's what everybody has. Also it's useful for d100 rolls (not part of the resolution mechanic, but good for random name and NPC generaters and such). Also, we already tried a 3d6 pool system and it was broke all to hell.

I like dicepools.  There's satisfaction in rolling them, you can fiddle with the results a number of ways. Probabilities are harder to calculate and consider, especially if you use exploding (roll again) mechanics.

Dicepools tend to lose some of the 'fidelity' of, say, d20 or percentile based systems so they require a bit of a looser hand in putting together the system, less exactitude, thus I think they're generally better for looser more 'story' or 'action' based systems than ones that attempt to mirror realism very precisely.

That said I use a d6 dicepool system for @ctiv8 which is meant to be modern and realistic after a fashion and it works fine but that's because the small dicepool does seem to help represent average joes.

What are you using for a target number, and does that change?  And even more importantly what are you trying to accomplish in terms of tone.  Because you really need to look at the probability curves for the dice and understand what is doing what. There are a lot of different things that can happen.

As for "clunky" it depends a lot since dice pool covers a very wide range of differing options. If you align your dice mechanic with your tone and align your rules with your chosen mechanic the result can be slick as shitzat. If you don't then woe falls upon your family and all that play your game. ;)

Well, I know you're gonna hate me for this, but both target numbers and required successes are variable. I might post in more detail later.

As for tone or what have you, I'm a big fan of fast-paced hack-n-slash. I am very much in love with DnD and Star Wars D20 (as well as my homebrew DnD, which ports over all my favorite SW rules and a few original tidbits). I was going for something that could work in at least a couple genres, if only because I don't want to write a brand-spanking new mechanic every time I put out a game.

I'm also making allowances for a later adaptation. I found this one guy's homebrew, fell in love with it, and got permission to make it into a game. Sweet. So, while such elements aren't canon in the modular version, I'm already considering things like hit location based on number of successes (attack, damage, and hit locations in only two rolls? that's an idea I'm proud of) and a sanity mechanic (nothing too terribly original, but I do hope to make something that uses less bookkeeping than the UA sanity rules, which I understand were ported from CoC).

Quote from: beejazzWell, I know you're gonna hate me for this, but both target numbers and required successes are variable. I might post in more detail later.

I don't hate you. I just hope you realize how wildly variable the odds can get with that. Especially with that tight a cap on the dice pool.  You are working with a d10 so you'll have a bit more granularity than moving the TN around with a d6, but when you need 2 dice out of 4 dice every step in the TN is going to produce a lot of change in the odds of success.

It's the underlying reason why SR3 used L-M-S-D that was then translated into a damage boxes based on the triangular series 1-3-6-10. Which in turn resulted in typically all or nothing damage.


So what range for TN do you expect to use, and what alters it?  Are you planning on 'exploding' dice (hitting at least a certain number with a die, say a 10, means you reroll it).

Quote from: blakkieI don't hate you. I just hope you realize how wildly variable the odds can get with that. Especially with that tight a cap on the dice pool.  You are working with a d10 so you'll have a bit more granularity than moving the TN around with a d6, but when you need 2 dice out of 4 dice every step in the TN is going to produce a lot of change in the odds of success.

I've got a full breakdown of all the odds for all possible target numbers and all possible numbers of successes. I may not be a math whiz, but I've got someone who is watching my back on this one.

QuoteIt's the underlying reason why SR3 used L-M-S-D that was then translated into a damage boxes based on the triangular series 1-3-6-10. Which in turn resulted in typically all or nothing damage.

0_o... What?!?!?!

QuoteSo what range for TN do you expect to use, and what alters it?  Are you planning on 'exploding' dice (hitting at least a certain number with a die, say a 10, means you reroll it).

Well, ability scores (the only modifier to a check... EVER) run between 7 and 10. Target numbers run between 12 and 16.

We have a system kind of like AC for saves (in that you don't roll checks on the defense, and opposed checks are generally avoided... speed up them PbPs). Your defense is your ability score +6. In the core system number of successes is determined by armor (1 for none, 2 for light, 3 for medium, 4 for heavy)... in the later adaptation, I was thinking of using number of successes to determine hit location (one or two is a bodyshot, three is an arm/handshot, four is a foot/legshot, five is a headshot).

Personally I dislike dice pools if they explode roll and add, but there okay if they are just roll an additional dice. I also prefer the TN to be fixed, or at least only vary by a small degree +/-1 say.

So for example, using a d10 dice pool mechanic, the TN would be normally 7, if there particular bad circumstances the TN would be 8, good then 6. But generally I prefer more success to be needed.

Say you have 5d10 in your dice pool. You roll five dice each dice that gets over 7 is a success, any 10's you get a success and roll the dice again with the same TN.

Any dicepool system that has TN's greater than can be rolled on the face of the dice, is faulty design in my opinion, especially if it needs to explode more than once. (Shadowrun I'm looking at you)

If you want to make a task harder with a dice pool system then you require more successes you don't raise the TN.

Quote from: beejazzI've got a full breakdown of all the odds for all possible target numbers and all possible numbers of successes. I may not be a math whiz, but I've got someone who is watching my back on this one.

Get him to graph it up if you don't know Excel or something. 3 axis bar graphs are good if you are messing around with the TN.

Also don't fall for the classic trap basing things off of just average successes rolled. It is the shape of the curve that matters.

Quote0_o... What?!?!?!

You know, you really should experience SR3.  See if you can find a dominatrix in your area that'll do that for you.  That way you can see firsthand a wide variety of ways to make a totally wacked dice pool system. But such is often the fate of pioneers. :(

QuoteWell, ability scores (the only modifier to a check... EVER) run between 7 and 10. Target numbers run between 12 and 16.

Ah, are you talking about adding a number to every die rolled? Sweet Jebus, your head be in d20 space. You really need to get out and play some of these games. ;)  But that aside, let's assume that you subtract the Ability from the base TN to give you your actual TN (which is what I was looking for).  So TN ranging from 2 to 9.  Yah, that's pretty serious range to also be doing anything of note with number of hits.

Frankly I'm of the opinion that having anything close to that sort of range with TNs undercuts the very thing that makes dice pools work well. The multiple successes.

QuoteWe have a system kind of like AC for saves (in that you don't roll checks on the defense, and opposed checks are generally avoided... speed up them PbPs).

Opposed checks are typically the strong suit of dice pools, although admittedly not quite as much with a wide TN range.

QuoteYour defense is your ability score +6. In the core system number of successes is determined by armor (1 for none, 2 for light, 3 for medium, 4 for heavy)...

So what does the Ability score have to do with anything?  Or did I misunderstand what the modifier does?

Quotein the later adaptation, I was thinking of using number of successes to determine hit location (one or two is a bodyshot, three is an arm/handshot, four is a foot/legshot, five is a headshot).

With that TN moving around so much you have to be careful of going very quickly from occationally hitting to consistant headshot.  I'm not sure about the consiquences of bodyshot vs. arm etc. so I'll not comment there.

I agree with Bagpuss on the exploding die thing.  I'll also throw in that my prefered way is instead of having a 10 give you another chance to roll (meaning another chance to botch) is to just have it count as 2 successes.  That means you only have to throw the dice once.

"Exploding" dice aren't so bad if there's no penalty for certain numbers on the re-roll.

Instance:  In the D6 System, you roll a "Wild Die" with every pool; on a roll of 6 on the Wild Die, that die re-rolls and adds.  Another 6 does the same, but anything else just adds back in; there's no danger of "botching" or other such nastiness.  If you roll a bunch of ones, well...huh.  You rolled a bunch of ones.  Add'em up, big deal.  

Oh, and let's dispel an oft-held misconception about the Wild Die.  Rollng a 1 on the wild does not automatically indicate some sort of crazy failure; the GM has the option of either

• Subtracting the 1 nd the highest die rolled;
• Introducing a complication regardless of success or failure; or
• Adding in the 1, because it's just a die.

I generally disdain dice pools. But, that being said, I find the ones most tolerable to deal with are those that don't have any special little gimmicks that designers used to love to shove in, but make the system a pain to deal with in play. Things like cancelling or adding successes, exploding dice, etc., make your system more tedious and less transparent to understand in play.

Dice pools are pretty well the devil incarnate.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditDice pools are pretty well the devil incarnate.

RPGPundit

Well you managed to really keep the Substance down on that one, I'll give it a 0.5.  But I'm going to have to give it a 3 on Flair, and that's being generous. You aren't going to like what the Russian judge will have to say. :(

Quote from: blakkieGet him to graph it up if you don't know Excel or something. 3 axis bar graphs are good if you are messing around with the TN.

Yup. Everything's charted out.

QuoteAlso don't fall for the classic trap basing things off of just average successes rolled. It is the shape of the curve that matters.

I'll be sure to keep that in mind.

QuoteYou know, you really should experience SR3.  See if you can find a dominatrix in your area that'll do that for you.  That way you can see firsthand a wide variety of ways to make a totally wacked dice pool system. But such is often the fate of pioneers. :(

*shudders*

QuoteAh, are you talking about adding a number to every die rolled? Sweet Jebus, your head be in d20 space. You really need to get out and play some of these games. ;)  But that aside, let's assume that you subtract the Ability from the base TN to give you your actual TN (which is what I was looking for).  So TN ranging from 2 to 9.  Yah, that's pretty serious range to also be doing anything of note with number of hits.

Wait... subtractive dicepools? Anyway, subtractive has always been rough on me. If it wasn't, I might actually use the GURPS book I got... well, aside from the part where GURPS:Hellboy had the bad layout/format and the very poorly explained magic/psionics.

QuoteFrankly I'm of the opinion that having anything close to that sort of range with TNs undercuts the very thing that makes dice pools work well. The multiple successes.

Meh. Again, I haven't seen them work IRL, but there's only five possible TNs and five possible numbers of successes.

To lower that down to just five successes would sting me a little, as would adding more dice.

QuoteOpposed checks are typically the strong suit of dice pools, although admittedly not quite as much with a wide TN range.

Uh... I can see it working with addative... otherwise I'm at a loss.

QuoteSo what does the Ability score have to do with anything?  Or did I misunderstand what the modifier does?

Let's say you want to attack. Roll your dicepool + Your ability (strength or whatever) vs. 6 + their ability (reflex). If you get enough successes (a function of armor) you hit.

Then you do damage. Roll your dicepool + your ability vs. 6 + their ability(toughness). Number of successes determines damage dealt.

Or you want to cast a spell on someone. Roll dicepool + your ability vs. 6 + their ability (luck or sanity or what have you, depending on the spell and which iteration of the game you play).

The six is kind of a stand in for the dice on the defense (kind of like how in D20, the arbitrary +10 to AC stands in for rolling your defense against every attack).

QuoteWith that TN moving around so much you have to be careful of going very quickly from occationally hitting to consistant headshot.  I'm not sure about the consiquences of bodyshot vs. arm etc. so I'll not comment there.

Well, we've also got dual successes for each hit location. Lets say you hit someone in the arm/hand. Then you roll damage. Roll three tens on your damage roll? If not, you just disarm them. If so, you actually cut off or break their arm. Headshots can mean blinded/stunned... or they can mean dead.

At least... that's what I've got so far. I like that it's still only two rolls, but the "three ten damage" rule sounds cheezy.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI generally disdain dice pools. But, that being said, I find the ones most tolerable to deal with are those that don't have any special little gimmicks that designers used to love to shove in, but make the system a pain to deal with in play. Things like cancelling or adding successes, exploding dice, etc., make your system more tedious and less transparent to understand in play.

I've seen "Don't Rest Your Head"... that the sort of thing you're talking about? Like all that "pain dice" "fatigue dice" bull?

Quote from: beejazzLet's say you want to attack. Roll your dicepool + Your ability (strength or whatever) vs. 6 + their ability (reflex). If you get enough successes (a function of armor) you hit.

Then you do damage. Roll your dicepool + your ability vs. 6 + their ability(toughness). Number of successes determines damage dealt.

Or you want to cast a spell on someone. Roll dicepool + your ability vs. 6 + their ability (luck or sanity or what have you, depending on the spell and which iteration of the game you play).

The six is kind of a stand in for the dice on the defense (kind of like how in D20, the arbitrary +10 to AC stands in for rolling your defense against every attack).

So you are adding the ability number to the number rolled by each individual die? Yup, your head be stuck something serious in D20 space.

Quote from: beejazzI've seen "Don't Rest Your Head"... that the sort of thing you're talking about? Like all that "pain dice" "fatigue dice" bull?

Dunno. Never seen "Don't rest your head."

The main culprit here I am alluding to is oWoD. Though it produced many immitators.

Anyway, yeah... we're trying to avoid crap like that.

You might be able to add dice to your pool in special circumstances, but no crazy re-rolls, re-interprets, dice of diferrent colors where the color that hits highest determines what the cost to your mental health (the game I'm referencing)... Nothing as wierd as that.

Quote from: RPGPunditDice pools are pretty well the devil incarnate.

RPGPundit

So does this make me the devil's advocate?

Also, blakkie, you mentioned subtractive dicepools... I didn't quite get the explanation... care to elaborate?

Quote from: beejazzAlso, blakkie, you mentioned subtractive dicepools... I didn't quite get the explanation... care to elaborate?

I'm talking about determining the final TN. Then you roll the dice and compare they directly against that TN instead manipulating each die's result to see if it matches or exceeds the TN.

But at the root of the problem basically, as far as I could tell, you were using Abilities like the D-Minus system :D only handling it in an even more awkward way. :eek:

Quote from: blakkieI'm talking about determining the final TN. Then you roll the dice and compare they directly against that TN instead manipulating each die's result to see if it matches or exceeds the TN.

Oh... so target number as a function of roll under x. Then number of successes based on the difficulty of the task. Right?

QuoteBut at the root of the problem basically, as far as I could tell, you were using Abilities like the D-Minus system :D only handling it in an even more awkward way. :eek:

D-Minus what now?

Quote from: beejazzOkay, I know what a dicepool is. However, having only ever played DnD (and having a copy of GURPS:Hellboy and the ADnD monster manual) I haven't actually used them.

IMHO there is no sense in re-inventing the wheel. If you can get someone to loan you copies, check out: Shadowrun 4, and nWoD, or the more obscure Burning Wheel, and Arrowflight.

 You can also check out the d6 system or O.R.E. to see some different ways of doing die pools as well.

 If for no other reason than to see how it has been done before.

Quote from: beejazzI've heard them described as clunky, usually in reference to Exalted. I've also heard it said that Exalted goes as high as 17 or 30 dice.

Yes, they can be clunky, just like any other game system. But Exalted is also very popular game line, so opinions vary.

My advice, Pick one variable for task resolution.

You either alter the Target Number, The amount of dice in the pool, or the number of successes it takes to do something.

The non-clunky die pool systems only really have one of the three elements above as a variable.

In my expierience, when the outcome of a task is affected by both an altering TN, and number of successes, the clunk factor tends to go up big time.

And if die-pools are the devil incarnate, then 3.5/d20 is the angry god that cast him down - because he was jealous that games less popular than him had better mechanics.


.

Quote from: JaegerAnd if die-pools are the devil incarnate, then 3.5/d20 is the angry god that cast him down - because he was jealous that games less popular than him had better mechanics.

/me pats there Jeager on the head.

There, there. We now your system is less popular. It's okay to like less popular system. You don't have to justify yourself.

:D

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI generally disdain dice pools. But, that being said, I find the ones most tolerable to deal with are those that don't have any special little gimmicks that designers used to love to shove in, but make the system a pain to deal with in play. Things like cancelling or adding successes, exploding dice, etc., make your system more tedious and less transparent to understand in play.

KISS is definately a great rule of thumb, if not goal. The less time spent fiddling/analyzing the dice the better. Which is why exploding dice may or may not be preferable.  On d10s though it isn't as much of an issue as d6s.

Quote from: beejazzOh... so target number as a function of roll under x. Then number of successes based on the difficulty of the task. Right?

Well you could do a roll-under, but that's not what I had in mind.

I'm still sensing a real disconect here between what you are saying and what I'm hearing, and visa versa.

I'm suggesting that the TN remain what you want to meet or exceed with a die. I'm just saying that it is a whole lot of clutter for the player to constantly be adding to his individual die roll to figure out if the roll exceeds the TN.

So the TN should always be something in the range of 1 to 10, and it is compared directly to the number that comes up on the die.

Quote from: JaegerMy advice, Pick one variable for task resolution.

You either alter the Target Number, The amount of dice in the pool, or the number of successes it takes to do something.

The non-clunky die pool systems only really have one of the three elements above as a variable.

Two works if you have clear rules about which represents what.  Otherwise you run into problems trying to figure out what a modifier is suppose to be changing.

QuoteIn my expierience, when the outcome of a task is affected by both an altering TN, and number of successes, the clunk factor tends to go up big time.

I think the underlying problem there is that the odds get away from you really fast.  The usuable part of the probabilities, the part where any change in one of the variables matters, becomes much smaller because the effects of those two variables are very synergistic.

(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/rvilliers/Posters/dicepoolposter.jpg)

;)

@blakkie: I may still be stuck in d20 land, but what!? Roll high but 10 or under? But how do I modify my chances of success on an individual die? Where would things like ability scores come in? Ack!

I thought you meant something like rolling under your ability score x number of times (which made alot of sense to me at the time... keeping both TN and number of successes variable allows dicepools to remain fairly small... at least until people buy more.)

Anyway, the misunderstanding did give me what I thought might be a great idea for a 6d6 pool system, though...

@Jong: YES!

Quote from: beejazzRoll high but 10 or under?

Last I checked the highest my d10 goes is "10". You have some of those Spinal Tap d10s that go up to "11"?  :rimshot:

For example nWoD using a fixed TN 8.  So any die roll 7 and under fails, any 8s, 9s, or 10s are successes.

SR3 uses d6s and can have TNs that are above 6. However what they do is when you roll a 6 you then reroll adding six to the die roll.  For TNs 13 to 18 you must have rolled at least back to back 6s and then the third roll of that die +12 must be enough to break the TN.  One odd conciquence of this is that TN 6 and 7, 12 and 13, etc. are equally difficult because you can't roll a zero on a d6. It also has some other issues.

Some people I've talked with do the same thing with SR3 exploding dice that Hackmaster does with penetration damage (which is effectively exploding dice). Each exploder is actually d6 - 1. So if you roll 6 + 6 + 2 you get 6 + 5 + 1, for a total of 12. It gets around the TN 6-7 issue and mathematically just means that the average result is 4 instead of 3.5. I've never used it myself but they seemed to enjoy it.

If you're going with floating TN and exploding dice it might be worth considering. The interesting thing is that no matter what the die used, the end result is to just add 0.5 to the normal average for that die. I haven't done the math for it, I'm just taking the word of the multiple guys with engineering degrees that worked on the system for Hackmaster.

Quote from: blakkieLast I checked the highest my d10 goes is "10". You have some of those Spinal Tap d10s that go up to "11"?  :rimshot:

For example nWoD using a fixed TN 8.  So any die roll 7 and under fails, any 8s, 9s, or 10s are successes.

SR3 uses d6s and can have TNs that are above 6. However what they do is when you roll a 6 you then reroll adding six to the die roll.  For TNs 13 to 18 you must have rolled at least back to back 6s and then the third roll of that die +12 must be enough to break the TN.  One odd conciquence of this is that TN 6 and 7, 12 and 13, etc. are equally difficult because you can't roll a zero on a d6. It also has some other issues.

Huh? I was taliking about hitting numbers by adding d10+your ability (originally). Abilities would go from 7 to 10. TN from 12 (10 still has to roll a 2... 7 has to roll a 5) to 16 (7 can do it if he rolls a 9... 10 has to roll a 6).

Nobody has to roll a number not on the dice.

I thought you meant total not over 10... which would have indicated roll-under. Unless I nixed abilities or made abilities correspond with pool size.

Right?

Quote from: James McMurraySome people I've talked with do the same thing with SR3 exploding dice that Hackmaster does with penetration damage (which is effectively exploding dice). Each exploder is actually d6 - 1. So if you roll 6 + 6 + 2 you get 6 + 5 + 1, for a total of 12. It gets around the TN 6-7 issue and mathematically just means that the average result is 4 instead of 3.5. I've never used it myself but they seemed to enjoy it.

If you're going with floating TN and exploding dice it might be worth considering. The interesting thing is that no matter what the die used, the end result is to just add 0.5 to the normal average for that die. I haven't done the math for it, I'm just taking the word of the multiple guys with engineering degrees that worked on the system for Hackmaster.

Huh... we're talking additive dicepools now, right. Like add all the dice? Exploders sound pretty cool... if additive was what I was doing (and I may just do it later).

Exploding with consecutive dice minus one... whu? I mean, I get it, but...

Another interesting dice pool mechanic is Legend of the Five Rings. you have a skill rated 1 to 10 (rarely over 6) and a trait rated one to ten (rarely over 4). You roll a number of dice equal to your skill plus trait (max ten). You keep a number of dice equal to your trait. If you would roll more than ten dice, each bonus die is instead another die you keep. If you get badass enough to roll keep more than ten dice each extra kept die would instead be +5.  The dice explode and you total them up to try and reach a target number.

It sounds unwieldy but that's mostly because I suck at explaining it. In practice it's pretty smooth.A few examples:

Athletics 3 + Strength 4: roll 7 dice and keep the four highest.
Katana 7 + Agility 5: roll ten dice and keep the 7 highest (because you would roll more than ten).

Before you roll you can make "raises." Each raise increases the target by 5 and gives a bonus effect: increased damage, extra attacks, more healing with the medicine skill, etc.

Quote from: beejazzHuh? I was taliking about hitting numbers by adding d10+your ability (originally).

Abilities would go from 7 to 10. TN from 12 (10 still has to roll a 2... 7 has to roll a 5) to 16 (7 can do it if he rolls a 9... 10 has to roll a 6).

So I did understand correctly what your initial plan was. Yup, that be some pure freaking madness. Especially given that you are always adding at least 7 but never more than 10.

Think about it. You roll 10 dice and then you add 7 to each number. That'd be a guranteed 10 additions every time you roll. :duh: If I sent out a game like that I'd half expect players to show up at my house to kick the shit out of me....and I'd agree they would be right to. :hitrock: :(

Quote from: beejazzHuh... we're talking additive dicepools now, right. Like add all the dice? Exploders sound pretty cool... if additive was what I was doing (and I may just do it later).

Only each particular die is additive. So if you roll 3 dice of 5, 3, and (6 + 6 + 4) you'd have totals of 3, 5, and 16. If your target number is 8 you got one success. If it was 4 you got two successes.

QuoteExploding with consecutive dice minus one... whu? I mean, I get it, but...

It's just a way to even out the available numbers so you don't have dice that roll 1-5, 7-11, 13-17, etc. It makes target numbers of 6 different than target numbers of 7. When used for damage in Hackmaster it means you can get more than one die worth of damage without skipping possible damage values, and has the beneficial side effect of making the math for averages quicker.

Quote from: blakkieSo I did understand correctly what your initial plan was. Yup, that be some pure freaking madness. Especially given that you are always adding at least 7 but never more than 10.

Think about it. You roll 10 dice and then you add 7 to each number. That'd be up to 10 additions every time you roll. :duh: If I sent out a game like that I'd half expect players to show up at my house to kick the shit out of me....and I'd agree they would be right to. :hitrock: :(

That's why I was only using five dice and not ten.;)
Still, it might be a little too much even then, which is why I was considering the...

Abilities 2-5.
6d6 pool.
Roll under ability.
Number of successes determined by task.

Rolls to hit in combat would require a number of successes equal to the opponent's Reflex.

And... stuff.

Anyway, that's pretty self-evident TNs you read straight off the dice. It's an okay starting pool (though it could expand... it probably wouldn't go past 10d6)... stuff.

Quote from: James McMurrayAnother interesting dice pool mechanic is Legend of the Five Rings. you have a skill rated 1 to 10 (rarely over 6) and a trait rated one to ten (rarely over 4). You roll a number of dice equal to your skill plus trait (max ten). You keep a number of dice equal to your trait. If you would roll more than ten dice, each bonus die is instead another die you keep. If you get badass enough to roll keep more than ten dice each extra kept die would instead be +5.  The dice explode and you total them up to try and reach a target number.

It sounds unwieldy but that's mostly because I suck at explaining it. In practice it's pretty smooth.A few examples:

Athletics 3 + Strength 4: roll 7 dice and keep the four highest.
Katana 7 + Agility 5: roll ten dice and keep the 7 highest (because you would roll more than ten).

Before you roll you can make "raises." Each raise increases the target by 5 and gives a bonus effect: increased damage, extra attacks, more healing with the medicine skill, etc.

Sounds okay... like it would work.
You're right though that it looks crazy on paper.

Quote from: beejazzThat's why I was only using five dice and not ten.;)

So what was this about?

Quote from: beejazz, first post of threadthough generally only 5d10... a max of around 10d10

And yes, even with 5 dice it is truely innane.

QuoteAbilities 2-5.
6d6 pool.
Roll under ability.
Number of successes determined by task.

That's gettig better, though i'm not sure about having the pool size set. It could work if you don't want much granularity in differentiation between characters. Would have to look at that closer, because those steps between TNs tend to be doosies.

You'd likely want to dress up the "Abilities" with names and just associate them with TN numbers.  Because for the majority of people if you tell them that their Ability going from 3 to 2 is a good thing their heads are likely to implode. :D

For example Burning Wheel does something similar, their character stats are Black/Grey/White that corrospond to TN 4/3/2.  However on top of the "shade" each stat also has a value of 1 to 10 that represents the number of dice rolled.  Shade is just for differentiating between the larger stratas of characters of normal, heroic, and epic.

Quote from: blakkieThat's gettig better, though i'm not sure about having the pool size set. It could work if you don't want much granularity in differentiation between characters. Would have to look at that closer, because those steps between TNs tend to be doosies.

Nah... pool size aint set. You can buy extra dice as you progress.
Weapons also have kind of variable pools. Your average pocketknife might only have one die. A ray gun might have ten or twelve.

QuoteYou'd likely want to dress up the "Abilities" with names and just associate them with TN numbers.  Because for the majority of people if you tell them that their Ability going from 3 to 2 is a good thing their heads are likely to implode. :D

Nah... high abilities are good. If you've got a five, you're rolling for five or less. That means five of six faces are good things for you. If, on the other hand, you have two...

Quote from: beejazzNah... high abilities are good. If you've got a five, you're rolling for five or less. That means five of six faces are good things for you. If, on the other hand, you have two...

Oh right, you're rolling below.

Quote from: blakkieOh right, you're rolling below.

"Low stats are a good thing" has always been a little creepy to me.
Of course, so has rolling low... but here I might try it.

Although... low ability scores being called "hindrance level" or something like that with the flavor text "The extraordinary is only natural; it is we who hinder ourselves." might work okay.

Quote from: beejazzSounds okay... like it would work.
You're right though that it looks crazy on paper.

Yeah. Trust me, it works great in practice. The shortcomings it has are mostly due to my inability to describe it both simply and succinctly. :)

Nah, nah... it makes sense though.
The whole x stat determines dice while y stat determines number of successes.

The carrying over is a little wierd, but sensible. You don't want too many dice in a pool.

Quote from: beejazz"Low stats are a good thing" has always been a little creepy to me.
Of course, so has rolling low... but here I might try it.

Of the two it's the lesser of evils I think.

QuoteAlthough... low ability scores being called "hindrance level" or something like that with the flavor text "The extraordinary is only natural; it is we who hinder ourselves." might work okay.

I think it's best just to totally separate the number from the magnitude. For better or worse people that aren't full on engineers used to working with theoretical numbers that flip and flop magnitudes and directions like that will just seem to have a hard time groking stuff like. Understandable really. *shrug*

Okay... I know how to calculate average successes for a 6d6 roll under dicepool. Ability score 2 should succeed 2 out of six times. So that means that the average number of successes is two. Add more dice and you get an average x/6 higher (where x is the ability).

But how do I calculate the likelihood of other numbers of successes and such? How do I calculate (for example) how often someone with ability score 3 rolls 6 successes?

Quote from: beejazzOkay... I know how to calculate average successes for a 6d6 roll under dicepool. Ability score 2 should succeed 2 out of six times. So that means that the average number of successes is two. Add more dice and you get an average x/6 higher (where x is the ability).

But how do I calculate the likelihood of other numbers of successes and such? How do I calculate (for example) how often someone with ability score 3 rolls 6 successes?

This is where that friend of yours comes in. :)  You should have complete data in a 3 dimensional array across the full possible range for each of:
Dice pool size (because you are varying the pool size with modifiers)
TN
Successes

Further since you are doing opposed roles you'll need the win/tie/loss probabilities for:
Opponent 1 for each Pool size and TN vs. Opponent 2 for each Pool size and TN

I've got some of the forumlas you need, but I'm kind of slow on putting together the other ones because I don't get much practice with the actual numbers. I just know the 'shape' of them because I'm a graphical in analyzing game odds.

Quote from: blakkieThis is where that friend of yours comes in. :)  You should have complete data in a 3 dimensional array across the full possible range for each of:
Dice pool size (because you are varying the pool size with modifiers)
TN
Successes

Yup. I know how the graphs look. ;)

QuoteFurther since you are doing opposed roles you'll need the win/tie/loss probabilities for:
Opponent 1 for each Pool size and TN vs. Opponent 2 for each Pool size and TN

Opposed? I thought I'd just say "who's on the offense? He needs to succeed x number of times" where x is the value of the opposed ability. I suppose two people could do that at the same time, or both roll and whoever gets more successes wins, but... why?

QuoteI've got some of the forumlas you need, but I'm kind of slow on putting together the other ones because I don't get much practice with the actual numbers. I just know the 'shape' of them because I'm a graphical in analyzing game odds.

Hey, man... any help you could offer would be much appreciated. My math guy is a little busy at the moment with real life (work and kids) so anything I could learn to do myself would be a great help.

So, I've been reading Thirty by John Wick, which uses a fairly traditional attribute+skill d6 pool with the TN set by the GM according to the circumstances. The two notable features of the system are the shared Fraternitas points which can be drained to augment any action by any player, and the additional Background Die which resets all lower or all higher rolls to its own value (depending on whether that Background counts as an asset or a liability in this particular situation). All in all, it looks like something that would work quite nicely.

Quote from: beejazzOpposed? I thought I'd just say "who's on the offense? He needs to succeed x number of times" where x is the value of the opposed ability. I suppose two people could do that at the same time, or both roll and whoever gets more successes wins, but... why?

It depends on how you are using them, but you should do it.

QuoteYup. I know how the graphs look.

Well isn't the data there underneath it?

P.S. And that you were only talking averages sends up a flag with me. :P

Quote from: blakkieIt depends on how you are using them, but you should do it.

Fine I guess some checks will be opposed. Just not attack rolls and such.

QuoteWell isn't the data there underneath it?

Only graphs I've got on hand are for the d10 bit I described earlier and for a similar system (lots of addition) with 3d6 pools (didn't work... adding one die made a BIG dif. As did +/-1 ability score).

QuoteP.S. And that you were only talking averages sends up a flag with me. :P

Only 'cause that's what I know how to calculate. I know full well it's not what I'm lookin' for. Otherwise I wouldn't know to ask for help on it.

Also, on excel, I know you can just punch in formulas for squares (not sure about rows and columns). I need to check if I have excel or can borrow a comp that has it, but knowing what formula to punch in would be mighty handy.

*grumble* Well, I guess I could use the charts I got already on 5d10 pools for a roll-under system. Abilities ranging from 5 to 9. Modifiers (I hate it... but I gotta) are half your score and range from 2 to 4.

When you gotta beat somebody, you roll under your ability score a number of times equal to their modifier. So someone with a 7strength attacking someone with a 6reflex has to roll under seven three times to hit. Or someone with coordination5 trying to sneak past someone with perception9 has to roll under five four times. And so on...

Or something.