I just found out about TTRPG systems that use things other than dice for resolution like SAGA/Amber/Castle-Falkenstein and it lead me to a game called Crimson Cutlass; A game about using Tarot cards for resolutions and I thought it was the most thematic way to play a pirate ttrpg, The DM playing the part as maritime baron samedi or gypsy fortune teller stuck in a box you'd probably find at a port royale tavern, what with all the talk of fate and mysticism of that era.

I wanna know your favorite diceless systems, whether you think it's high-quality, clever, nails a theme, nails rules-light rules, has a great deal of interesting complexity or just enjoy because of fond memories!

I REALLY liked Everway when I first got it, but decided I would never actually be able to play it in any meaningful capacity and sold it years back. Still, lots of cool concepts.

That said, Amber is my second favorite RPG. It is without a doubt one of the best games ever created, and I don't say that lightly. However, you have to have players that buy into the concept or it will be a terrible game, there's no way around it. If you're playing D&D, one or two players who aren't that engaged and just roll dice during combat won't kill the game. If they're not roleplaying constantly and consistently in an Amber game it will be Not Fun At All (tm). The number one issue for Amber is knowing something about how the universe works and who the main NPCs are. Players who are alright with being in the dark and discovering this during play are okay, but they have to invest time in doing so. People who have read the books will have a much greater understanding of WTF is going on, but they still must be willing to go along with the underlying premise and paradigms. If the players are unwilling to develop their characters properly, again, the game just doesn't work. The best quote I can remember is when I pitched running a campaign to the Shadowrun group I was playing in. One of the guys said, "Wow, that sounds like you really have to roleplay your ass off." And yeah, you pretty much do. Some people hate the fact they won't even have a current copy of their own character sheet, or that conflict resolution is 99% based on how well they describe their characters actions. Amber is not for them. BUT if you want one of the most legitimately fulfilling experiences possible, I suggest giving it a shot.

Pundit's Olympus game is pretty much just Amber with Greek gods. I've never played it (yet), but I imagine it would actually be easier to play than Amber simply because most people who made it past the 9th grade have some idea who Zeus and Apollo are, making it much more accessible, easier to "get into character", and understand the game universe.

I have all 3 of the Marvel Universe Roleplaying Game (and the unofficial Spidey guide) and have run it several times. I WANT to love the system, but it's so incredibly open to being gamed/exploited, and as I'm running it for gamers...Plus the energy generating system is ass.

I gave up trying to extensively house rule it, and moved on to extensively house ruling FASERIP instead.

Quote from: Brad on May 10, 2023, 09:41:48 PM
I REALLY liked Everway when I first got it, but decided I would never actually be able to play it in any meaningful capacity and sold it years back. Still, lots of cool concepts.

That said, Amber is my second favorite RPG. It is without a doubt one of the best games ever created, and I don't say that lightly. However, you have to have players that buy into the concept or it will be a terrible game, there's no way around it. If you're playing D&D, one or two players who aren't that engaged and just roll dice during combat won't kill the game. If they're not roleplaying constantly and consistently in an Amber game it will be Not Fun At All (tm). The number one issue for Amber is knowing something about how the universe works and who the main NPCs are. Players who are alright with being in the dark and discovering this during play are okay, but they have to invest time in doing so. People who have read the books will have a much greater understanding of WTF is going on, but they still must be willing to go along with the underlying premise and paradigms. If the players are unwilling to develop their characters properly, again, the game just doesn't work. The best quote I can remember is when I pitched running a campaign to the Shadowrun group I was playing in. One of the guys said, "Wow, that sounds like you really have to roleplay your ass off." And yeah, you pretty much do. Some people hate the fact they won't even have a current copy of their own character sheet, or that conflict resolution is 99% based on how well they describe their characters actions. Amber is not for them. BUT if you want one of the most legitimately fulfilling experiences possible, I suggest giving it a shot.

Pundit's Olympus game is pretty much just Amber with Greek gods. I've never played it (yet), but I imagine it would actually be easier to play than Amber simply because most people who made it past the 9th grade have some idea who Zeus and Apollo are, making it much more accessible, easier to "get into character", and understand the game universe.

I've always wanted to try Amber.  I'm a huge Zelazny fan, and AFAIK have read everything he wrote about Amber, many times for most of them.  But when I read the Amber rules I just don't grok how it will actually work with people around the table.  I think I just need to find a group who plays it that's willing to give a newby a try.

btw, if you haven't seen it yet, there's a forum specifically for the Amber game on this site, which I believe the author participated in before his passing.

Quote from: GiantToenail on May 10, 2023, 07:57:25 PM
I wanna know your favorite diceless systems, whether you think it's high-quality, clever, nails a theme, nails rules-light rules, has a great deal of interesting complexity or just enjoy because of fond memories!

I'm quite fond of Amber Diceless.  I co-designed the Heaven & Earth diceless game we published in 1999 from my first RPG company, Event Horizon Productions, and it was frimly-rooted in that late-90s-millennium zeitgeist, but I still think that we did a pretty good job of making a fun, usable system grounded in freewill vs. fate.

Other notable RPG that use cards rather than dice include Lace & Steel, and more-recently Jeff Barber's Upwind.  I'm sure there were some others with systems based on tarot cards that I'm blanking on, too.  Dread also used an escalatingly-interesting and diceless mechanic (play with a Jenga tower until it collapses!).  I don't recall whether Nobilis is diceless (I've never played it), but I have that vague recollection that it was.    I also haven't played Castle Falkenstein or Theatrix (or Aria, but I don't recall if Aria was also diceless but don't think so). 

Allan.

Through the Breach kinda defaults into this because it's the only diceless game I've actually played.

Full transparency; I am not a huge fan of the setting because I think the worldbuilding premise is meh. I also am not a fan of reprinting a normal deck of playing cards in tarot card size. The change is so they could include artwork, but I do not particularly enjoy the feeling of shuffling a deck of tarot-sized cards. That said, the gimmick that the game is card-based does add a fair amount to the game's feel and flavor; the GM I was playing with encouraged us to count the deck to know whether or not the power in the deck was building or waning, and D20 just doesn't give you that kind of feedback.

Quote from: Mishihari on May 11, 2023, 12:15:38 AM
I've always wanted to try Amber.  I'm a huge Zelazny fan, and AFAIK have read everything he wrote about Amber, many times for most of them.  But when I read the Amber rules I just don't grok how it will actually work with people around the table.  I think I just need to find a group who plays it that's willing to give a newby a try.

btw, if you haven't seen it yet, there's a forum specifically for the Amber game on this site, which I believe the author participated in before his passing.

Yeah I'm aware of the sub-board here...but there is very little traffic, unfortunately.

RE: getting a group for Amber...as stated, you REALLY need the buy-in. It does work once people understand the underlying premise, but I'd say maybe 10% of roleplayers will actually be interested in providing the required investment. It's definitely not a game for everyone. That said, there is a MERP rules-set someone made years ago using the Amber system. I think it does a decent job of explaining how the game is played since almost all of us are familiar with Tolkien. Maybe give it a try as a gateway drug for your group?
https://web.archive.org/web/20120322081158/http://home.mchsi.com/~philhall1969/amber-merp.htm

Per Grodog, Nobilis is diceless but good luck trying to figure that game out. I got the coffee table book because it looked really cool but the text is almost impenetrable. The Primal Order is essentially diceless (there are rules about how to use it with other systems that use dice, so technically there may be rolls) and does what Nobilis tries to do but using coherent English words and sentences. Sean Borgstrom/Jenna  Moran/whatever the fuck they call themselves did the same thing with Chuubos wish thing (again, whatever it's called), so I am of the mind he/she/whatever is just putting on an elaborate ruse and fooling people into thinking these are playable systems. But who knows, you might like them.

Aria uses dice for a few things, but not many. You could probably get away with no rolls whatsoever and go totally diceless, but like Nobilis the text is largely impossible to understand, which is a shame because I have tried countless times to figure out that game. It looks super cool, but might be better for just solo play and creating your own little worlds.

I've played Nobilis and Chuubos once each. Their systems work however there are two HUGE barriers to them.

First, everyone needs to be on board with it.  Some people have trouble with games that are too freeform.  These people hate not having a skill list already defined.  They are uncomfortable with rulings, not rules.  They don't like automatically succeeding/failing and especially not getting to retry something.  If anyone in your group is like this, they will be miserable playing these games.

Second, everyone needs to understand the setting and the conceits that go along with it.  Chuubos is a lot easier to grasp, once the GM decides on which setting they plan to use.  That's also its weakness.  Every genre could be a Chuubos game.  It's up to the GM to define exactly what they are planning to do with the setting and for the players to make characters that fit that.  It is easy to make characters that don't fit so the players and GM really need to work together.

Nobilis is dense and, as others have said, it is not easy to parse for a lot of people.  It really is its own worse enemy in that regard.  The 3rd edition helps a little, but it is still not the most player friendly.  You need a lot of buy in from any group that is going to play it and a lot of trust between the players and GM.

All that said, one game I didn't see mentioned yet was Heaven and Earth from Guardians of Order.  The setting was a well done Twin Peaks-like clone.  It used standard  playing cards instead of dice.  You had 3 stats each tied to one of the suits and you kept a hand of 3 cards at all times.  When you did something you would play a card, discard a card and keep a card.  You could play any card for any action but got a special bonus for one of the appropriate suit (climbing a wall?  match the Body stat suit for a bonus).  Add the face value to your skill level and get the result.  This gives players a lot of control over when they succeed and when they fail.  Not total control, but enough to make things interesting.  You redraw after the action so you always have 3 cards and can, potentially, hold onto a specific card for a clutch moment later on.

These discussions always trip me up.  Back in the day, "diceless" was assumed to be "randomless", and not just a game that used a randomizer other than dice.  I find the former a much more interesting discussion.  As for the latter, I tend to mind that while other methods are often really appropriate thematically they don't necessarily offer much that plain old dice don't. 

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 10, 2023, 11:43:49 PM
I have all 3 of the Marvel Universe Roleplaying Game (and the unofficial Spidey guide) and have run it several times. I WANT to love the system, but it's so incredibly open to being gamed/exploited, and as I'm running it for gamers...Plus the energy generating system is ass.

I gave up trying to extensively house rule it, and moved on to extensively house ruling FASERIP instead.

MURPG plays well by post but you hit the nail on the head with your comments. I gave up trying to run it diceless and am in the process of writing up something that uses the basics of MURPG and marries it with D6s, with a Tunnels and Trolls style combat system (cloud with fists and feet jutting out).

Examples:





The write up format should be familiar and Spideys write up is almost identical.

Another Diceless game worth a mention is the Marvel Saga/Dragonlance game which has a random element (drawing cards) but you then decide how and when those cards are played so resource management as well. Neither caught on but are remembered for different reasons.

In the end (after years of playing and running MURPG on its board) I came to the conclusion that games need an element of chance. What's the fun in knowing you succeed or fail automatically? Heck, even flipping a coin for every Red Stone you use makes it slightly more interesting as you count successes against your opponent.

Quote from: Brad on May 11, 2023, 09:11:57 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 11, 2023, 12:15:38 AM
I've always wanted to try Amber.  I'm a huge Zelazny fan, and AFAIK have read everything he wrote about Amber, many times for most of them.  But when I read the Amber rules I just don't grok how it will actually work with people around the table.  I think I just need to find a group who plays it that's willing to give a newby a try.

RE: getting a group for Amber...as stated, you REALLY need the buy-in. It does work once people understand the underlying premise, but I'd say maybe 10% of roleplayers will actually be interested in providing the required investment. It's definitely not a game for everyone. That said, there is a MERP rules-set someone made years ago using the Amber system. I think it does a decent job of explaining how the game is played since almost all of us are familiar with Tolkien. Maybe give it a try as a gateway drug for your group?
https://web.archive.org/web/20120322081158/http://home.mchsi.com/~philhall1969/amber-merp.htm

Mishihari - If you're interested in playing, there are a number of Amber-RPG-specific conventions that are across the US, UK, and Ireland. There's a list here:

http://www.ambercons.com/

AmberCon NorthWest (ACNW) in the Portland area has been my favorite convention for years. It's a great location and a great, friendly community. From going there for most of the last 18 years, I've played a lot of Amber game variants.

I'd agree with what Brad said. It can be tricky getting existing RPG gamers out of the dice-rolling mindset, but I think it's about equal for non-gamers to jump into. For non-Amber games, it depends a lot on having a shared vision. It's best if people have a very clear idea of both the setting and the genre - like having read the same long book series or film series. It depends a lot on having a clear picture of what choices mean.

Quote from: APN on May 11, 2023, 02:21:29 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 10, 2023, 11:43:49 PM
I have all 3 of the Marvel Universe Roleplaying Game (and the unofficial Spidey guide) and have run it several times. I WANT to love the system, but it's so incredibly open to being gamed/exploited, and as I'm running it for gamers...Plus the energy generating system is ass.

I gave up trying to extensively house rule it, and moved on to extensively house ruling FASERIP instead.

MURPG plays well by post but you hit the nail on the head with your comments. I gave up trying to run it diceless and am in the process of writing up something that uses the basics of MURPG and marries it with D6s, with a Tunnels and Trolls style combat system (cloud with fists and feet jutting out).

Examples:





The write up format should be familiar and Spideys write up is almost identical.

Have you tried out your system in the wild? If so, how have you found it?

If you ever make the rues available, let me know.

Quote from: APN on May 11, 2023, 02:21:29 PMIn the end (after years of playing and running MURPG on its board) I came to the conclusion that games need an element of chance. What's the fun in knowing you succeed or fail automatically? Heck, even flipping a coin for every Red Stone you use makes it slightly more interesting as you count successes against your opponent.

Not even just that, the more mathematically gifted players soon get a feel for how to gauge enemy limits, and efficiently defend and attack. Nothing sucks the air out of a room like a combat going from "watch out for Scorpion's tail!" to "Scorpion's big attack used 12 stones, every one set defence accordingly."

I also toyed with replacing gems with a dice system, or adding a small dice mechanic to introduce minor randomness. But magic is also broken, regeneration is too important, energy generation is bad, etc. They're beautiful books, with a good concept, but the whole thing seems rushed and imperfectly implemented.

Since FASERIP was made during the 80's and 90's (my favorite period of Marvel,) and has a ton of resources, I thought "if you're going to spend the time to tear down and rebuild a Marvel system, it may as well be FASERIP."   

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 11, 2023, 10:30:06 PM
Have you tried out your system in the wild? If so, how have you found it?

If you ever make the rues available, let me know.

Not even just that, the more mathematically gifted players soon get a feel for how to gauge enemy limits, and efficiently defend and attack. Nothing sucks the air out of a room like a combat going from "watch out for Scorpion's tail!" to "Scorpion's big attack used 12 stones, every one set defence accordingly."

I also toyed with replacing gems with a dice system, or adding a small dice mechanic to introduce minor randomness. But magic is also broken, regeneration is too important, energy generation is bad, etc. They're beautiful books, with a good concept, but the whole thing seems rushed and imperfectly implemented.

Since FASERIP was made during the 80's and 90's (my favorite period of Marvel,) and has a ton of resources, I thought "if you're going to spend the time to tear down and rebuild a Marvel system, it may as well be FASERIP."

Still in the process of ideas/tweaking/choosing what to use and discard. Some of the latest ideas/musing can be found in this thread: https://trollbridge.proboards.com/thread/3449/power-trip?page=2

It started out as an attempt to 'fix' the Tunnels and Trolls Power Trip! game (Superheroes with T&T written by James Shipman from an idea by Ken St Andre) and I gave up with that. Characters with stats in the thousands literally make no sense.

Then I went back to various failed/bored of/discarded attempts to 'fix' MURPG and thought I'd marry it up with the Combat System from T&T. One side 'wins' there's little in the way of 'whiff' as attacks miss over and over. T&T Combat isn't perfect. The play by post I run on there is heavily house ruled to be almost it's own thing. It does have the seed of a good idea in there (which I prefer vs D&D) and using that seed with the ideas from MURPG can hopefully make it's own thing.

No use re-inventing the wheel when you can take some slightly wonky ones and beat them into shape (hopefully).

Back onto the subject of diceless games, one of the ideas I discarded for MURPG was to use stones to buy dice.



Obviously this isn't diceless but having (like you I guess - were you active at any point on the MURPG forum?) played and GM'd a lot of MURPG I'm pretty convinced that Role Playing Games need a random element to mix things up. I don't have Amber or Pundits game but I'm open to being convinced. The other problem then is convincing players that diceless can work. 'Bidding' games basically boil down to whoever has the most to spend. Perhaps if there were different types of stones/things to spend of differing values but the age old problem of 'blowing your load' in the first round and spending the rest of the time trying to make use of whatever you can recover.

Perhaps make the stone recovery random but keep the stones/bidding system?

The MURPG forum was busy for a long time but is now a shadow of its former glory in terms of activity. There was an attempt to 'fix' the game with MURPG 2.0 but it mostly consisted of house rules rather than sweeping changes as far as I can tell.

Quote from: GiantToenail on May 10, 2023, 07:57:25 PM
I wanna know your favorite diceless systems, whether you think it's high-quality, clever, nails a theme, nails rules-light rules, has a great deal of interesting complexity or just enjoy because of fond memories!

A while back I wrote up a domino based narrative parlor game called The Trouble with Rose that has been enjoyed by a bunch of folks.  It falls into the rules lite category and is clever (to me) in that it hits the theme since each game is essentially a character driven one-shot.  Dominos are a fun alternate to dice since they share math that is more like cards and they have a wonderful tactile feel to them  There's also the hidden agenda card which modifies you existing character even if you have played the game before.  It had a fun if limited run at various conventions pre-pandemic.  [For something that started as a Shakespeare themed game jam entry, I'm pleased that people picked it up and tried it 'out in the wild'.] 

You can grab it for free along with a number of play sets/scenarios for it.  It's also super easy to hack or play solo if you like that kind of thing.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/219160/The-Trouble-with-Rose

https://www.deviantart.com/zircher/art/TTwR-NotLondon-779527659 (an example actual play if you wonder what that would look like)

I ref'd Nobilis 1st Ed (Little Pink Book) and 2nd Ed (Glorious White Book) for a couple of years.

I ran two 'campaigns' the first was basically the background in as is. ie you are the aspects of a god and have godlike powers and a second more like medieval fantasy superheros where they started as mortals with no abilities and gain gifts plus stats as the 'gods' liked them with some points they could spend to do 'powers'.

I found running standard Nobilis one of the most rewarding games as a ref but it took almost twice the prep time of any other system. Also not all the player can 'get it'. It is just too freeform some people can run with it and other suffer from complexity overload. I had to create everything from raw cloth and mix myth with my own imagination as there is almost campaign you could write that would work for all players.
The fantasy mortal become heroes I think worked really well, the plays seams to be able understand the power increases and what they could do with the powers better. It had the advantage that you can rip off most DnD like stuff, player love that they understand the background and can act like demi-gods with increasing abilities.

If you can 'get the rules' Nobilis is genesis. It took me two reading of the small 1st Ed to get it, but my first reading I could see there was something original and well though though. I think the 2nd Ed added more background but didn't help the understand-ability of the rules. I have not read the latest versions (but I do own them and have intended to get around to it).

When I mention thinking about running it, I can see some of my players eyes light up and other groan. It is a bit like someone saying they want to run rolemaster or earthdawn - some love the mechanics heavy system and some (like myself) hate them. Nobilis is kind of the opposite.

The rules themselves are actually quite simple, just explained in a post-modern over-the-top pretentiously verbose way