Quote from: SettembriniReally you are hypocrits. Because you are wanking over the fact of how decent you are, but actually you are just watching swine-war-porn.
If you all didn´t enjoy it, you wouldn´t participate in the Swinefighitng threads.
But still you do. AS can be seen here.

Just doing my part as a member of this community to make this a better site.If you were a honest poster you would see that.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RYou have the word indie in your title and folks around here get jumpy. Then we have AM coming out slugging and then Sett...the order isn't that important. Anytime someone posts about games that these wankers don't like there is going to be trouble. Clear enough Tony?

Regards,
David R

Wrong again. The games are essentially blameless. But when you promote the cult, I'm afraid I have to say something.

I admit that I'm clearly objectionable, but I'm not wrong on this. And I'm not going to suddenly stop doing it, either. Especially not here.

Quote from: VBWyrdeThe name is: Mark

- Mark

LOL!  I like how it's right above the signature line that I should have spotted from the get-go.  Nice head-slap moment for me there.  D'oH!

Good to see ya Mark.  I'm glad to hear you'll be hanging around here, and also glad to hear that you'll be exploring other fora too.  Lots of good discussions to be had at all places, amidst various flavors of internet noise.

Quote from: David RYou have the word indie in your title and folks around here get jumpy. Then we have AM coming out slugging and then Sett...the order isn't that important. Anytime someone posts about games that these wankers don't like there is going to be trouble. Clear enough Tony?

I suppose.  I just don't get your wish that it could be confined to "threads like these".  Seems like your standard isn't so much about the original nature of the thread, but rather about how people jump at shadows in it.  What kind of thread do you feel has gotten this treatment, but shouldn't have?

Yepp, AM is right. There´s the whole internet (RPG.NEt, the forge, New York City etc., story games...) that is forger-infested.
Why bother us?
We don´t like that kind of enthusiasm.
Go away.

Please go to Story Games. There´s a reason it exists, you know? And it is older than theRPGsite.

Quote from: Abyssal MawWrong again. The games are essentially blameless. But when you promote the cult, I'm afraid I have to say something.

See anyone promoting anything here AM ? The guy is doing some exploring, trying out different games ...so fucking what? Also everybody here is promoting something. I get more gamer hate from you than any of the other theory guys.

But for the record, I don't really have a problem when you go all Kurtz because at least I know where you are coming from at least from a gaming perspective with your APs and written adventures.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: TonyLBI suppose.  I just don't get your wish that it could be confined to "threads like these".  Seems like your standard isn't so much about the original nature of the thread, but rather about how people jump at shadows in it.  What kind of thread do you feel has gotten this treatment, but shouldn't have?

Just about any thread about different styles of gaming that Sett, AM and Alnaq participate in.

Edit: I've heard Sett's "your style of gaming is not wanted here" on many other threads. Maybe you were too busy being nice to notice.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: TonyLBLOL!  I like how it's right above the signature line that I should have spotted from the get-go.  Nice head-slap moment for me there.  D'oH!

Good to see ya Mark.  I'm glad to hear you'll be hanging around here, and also glad to hear that you'll be exploring other fora too.  Lots of good discussions to be had at all places, amidst various flavors of internet noise.

Thanks Tony.  Much obliged.  I guess if I make it through this trial by fire I'll be better off for it, though I've got to do soemthing about this burnt hair smell.  

- Mark

Quote from: SettembriniThen you should all go away, if it is so terrible.

Really you are hypocrits. Because you are wanking over the fact of how decent you are, but actually you are just watching swine-war-porn.
If you all didn´t enjoy it, you wouldn´t participate in the Swinefighitng threads.
But still you do. AS can be seen here.

Proving your level-headedness as sign of your superiority. That´s morally as low as all others involved, it´s only way more cowardly and hypocritical.

So, we should all go away because we can't stand bully tactics? Sett, I don't like your swine-war porn. I hang out here because I really like the people who hang here. OTOH, when I see two of my friends beating on some guy just because he's wearing the wrong t-shirt, it would be hypocritical of me NOT to step in. The Swine are not people who like forge games, they are the people who put down and belittle other people's preferences. In other words, asshats.

If you want to fight, fine! Go after Luke or Tony or whoever. They know what's going on, and they can take care of themselves. But this was an ambush on some random guy walking in cold. This guy has said that the "indy" guys are energetic and bright. Hell, that's true! Energetic and bright doesn't mean correct. Puppies are bright and energetic! He also said they welcomed him in, and their enthusiasm was contagious. He comes here and is greeted with brass knuckles and insults. Another thing he said was that he didn't particularly care for the "indy" games he's read so far, but he's reading his first.

This guy hasn't drunk the kool-aid, even by your own standards. He's been given the razzle-dazzle welcome by the Forge guys, and hasn't yet heard anything negative about them. So he comes here, and instead of giving him a warm welcome, counter-razzle-dazzle and logic, he gets beaten with a baseball bat. Crud! If you want to open peoples' eyes, it's counter-productive to stab their eyes with an ice-pick first. This reminds me of a line from Pogo: "B.O. is our first line of defence. Anyone that gets past that is a real friend!"

-clash

We´ll see what he posts.
We´ll see how much innocent enthusiasm for ALL kinds of games there is, or how much this was just another propaganda attack.

Time will tell us.

Quote from: SettembriniWe´ll see what he posts.
We´ll see how much innocent enthusiasm for ALL kinds of games there is, or how much this was just another propaganda attack.

Time will tell us.

I agree. All I am saying is give him time to prove himself one way or the other.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice...This guy has said that the "indy" guys are energetic and bright. Hell, that's true! Energetic and bright doesn't mean correct. Puppies are bright and energetic! He also said they welcomed him in, and their enthusiasm was contagious. He comes here and is greeted with brass knuckles and insults. Another thing he said was that he didn't particularly care for the "indy" games he's read so far, but he's reading his first.

This guy hasn't drunk the kool-aid, even by your own standards. He's been given the razzle-dazzle welcome by the Forge guys, and hasn't yet heard anything negative about them. So he comes here, and instead of giving him a warm welcome, counter-razzle-dazzle and logic, he gets beaten with a baseball bat. Crud! If you want to open peoples' eyes, it's counter-productive to stab their eyes with an ice-pick first. This reminds me of a line from Pogo: "B.O. is our first line of defence. Anyone that gets past that is a real friend!"

-clash

Really good summary!  One minor correction though:  

QuoteAnother thing he said was that he didn't particularly care for the "indy" games he's read so far, but he's reading his first.

I don't recall saying that exactly.  What I have said is that I am new to the whole Indie (meaning independently published RPGs) thing and have just begun reading 'Dogs in the Vineyard', and am interested in what the Indie concepts are so I can evaluate them.   I'm at the beginning of that evaluation now, having not even read through one complete rule book yet.  I did play 'Fae Noir' at DexCon 10 and I had a very good time doing so.  It was a lot of fun, and I liked the game.  I also liked being around the people there.  They were fun, enthusiastic, and bright.  That's correct.  And that's not Stealth-Evangelism to say so.  It's just how I percieved the group.  That doesn't make me a Cult member, please.  I may decide to become one (based partially on the increadible reception I just recieved here), but that will depend on what I discover in my research.

I'm still trying to get a grasp of exactly what the Indie-Hate is about really.  My impression is, based on the tidbits I'm gleaning, that it has something to do with:

1) a percieved cultishness/snobbery on the part of Indie Designers?
2) a philosophic difference of opinion on the Player Empowerment issue?

Am I gonig in the right direction with this assessment?  If so, can someone articulate the difference between the "Indie-Forgie" point of view, and that of the "Small-Press" games?   That would be helpful to me if anyone can do that.  I don't think I'm getting the big picture yet.  Can you help me out with a brief on what this argument is actually base on?  I'm curious to know.   Thanks.

OK, gentlemen - everyone back to neutral corners...

Here's the issue.  Mark come in and, I'm getting a sense that it was innocently, tries to post something about an "Indie" con he just attended. He's excited.  He's had a blast.  He's trying to write games. Good on ya mate.

Now, in response, several people go unabashedly overboard. That is to say, before Mark has a chance to respond, he's accused of all kinds of Acts Against Nature. The problem is, when Mark responded, he said the exact wrong thing.

Probably due to his excitement and the dazzling reception he got at the con, he spoke about the "indie" movement in terms that will crawl under the skin of many people here. Go back and look:

Quote from: VBWyrdeThe Indie crowd has an enormous amount of live and crackling creative energy, talent and drive. They also have the wherewithal to take their concepts to market (which in and of itself can be a LOT of work), and have the guts to take risks and ask the hard questions on game design. It's a wild and woolly bunch, as one would expect, but the collaborative excitement is palpable, and in my case contagious. I came away feeling that this is a great bunch of guys who are really bright and would be a heck of a lot of fun to collaborate with. And yes, brain damage is just part of the process. Case in point, Luke "the cannon" Crane and the gang came at me pretty hard on my game during the Game Design Panel, and really blasted me with some excellent and difficult questions. I felt like a cat on a hot tin roof. But I think it really helped me to think about and clarify my goals, and the purpose of my game... at least into words that I could write down and throw into my next set of docs and keep in mind as I move forward. So overall I say, "Give brain damage a chance".

Now, the implication or inference is that these characteristics do not exist outside the "Indie" crowd.

That's live fire to many.

Now Mark has tried to claim that it was all a mistake.  I'm willing to give him a chance and see what kinds of things he has to say; looks like even Sett is willing to give on that.  But that takes time and AM is, IMHO, trying to avoid having to wait and pushing buttons to see if this is just propaganda.

But all of this caterwauling over how horrible it is to greet someone here one way or another is only so much hysterics. Mark will stay or leave; perhaps he will find that his tastes tend towards story games or forgeries. But you can't expect that given his entrance (excitement about the "indie" crowd, implications that positive characteristics of RPG design exists only in the "indie" crowd, and the weird thing with him forgetting he's made posts here before) he'd get any other reception.  You think if you did the opposite anywhere else it would get a warm welcome? IMNSEE, I doubt it.

So let's all just take a nice, deep breath – including you, Pundy – and let time run it's course.

I'm just surprised at all the miniature figures – at an Indie convention!

AM, Sett and band-wagoneers,

I think it's hilarious that you can't deal with the fact that Mark came out blind, met us -- me, Jared, Fred Hicks, Rob D, TonyLB, Mike Miller, etc. -- and had a good time playing and talking about games with us. That's utterly incomprehensible, eh?



No one cares about the war. There is no war. If you came out to a con, you'd receive the same warm and welcome reception. In fact, I invite you out. If any of you are going to be at Gencon, stop by my booth and say Hi or drop by one of our panels and listen in.

It's not what you think.
-L

Quote from: VBWyrdeI'm still trying to get a grasp of exactly what the Indie-Hate is about really.  My impression is, based on the tidbits I'm gleaning, that it has something to do with:

1) a percieved cultishness/snobbery on the part of Indie Designers?
2) a philosophic difference of opinion on the Player Empowerment issue?

Am I gonig in the right direction with this assessment?  If so, can someone articulate the difference between the "Indie-Forgie" point of view, and that of the "Small-Press" games?   That would be helpful to me if anyone can do that.  I don't think I'm getting the big picture yet.  Can you help me out with a brief on what this argument is actually base on?  I'm curious to know.   Thanks.

See, now this is where things go sideways.

Why do you care?  I mean, if you're all wide-eyed and innocent, which I have no reason to doubt, what does it matter? Talk about your games and ideas - you'll be much better off.

Otherwise, I get this strange sense (I'm Vern and my tail is vibrating), that you're playing the "I'm an innocent by-stander" bit while realyl trying to engage in a debate about "the war."

Just my advice - for the time being leave the live grenade in the room and let people get a sense of you outside the context of Us versus Them.