Quote from: SettembriniThis is a valid concern.

It's the beam in our eyes, as it were. Either the point is to persuade others that the current trends in RPG theory are problematic and that we should take a new course, or the point is to get in long arguments on the internet and hurl verbal abuse at an arbitrarily defined "other side". I am interested in the former, but the emphasis at this site is definitely towards the latter. If we wish to persuade others that we are right, then we should not start by alienating people who are undecided on the issue at hand.

Pseudo,

As I posted in my longish post: there is no discussion with the Swine. It doesn´t happen, because of their mental and social attributes.
But a budding, unfinished swine, he can still be talked to. And I´m with you, that sometimes we act to fast.
But honestly, not this time.

It was nothing less than our shitstorm that made him aware of the insulting nature of his new preferences, of the problems involved. If he is stupid, then he will remain stupid. If he is smart, he will see that the swine behaviour we laid out for him actually comes up in reality, and he will reconsider.

See, it´s not like the Swine, especially the Forger Swine have anything going for them.
I have yet to meet a person that is not bored at some place in their career as a Thematic Gamer. If they don´t have issues with personality and aren´t game designers themselves, they´ll return to mainstream gaming. Because Thematics aren´t fullfilling all desires, and MasterSwine ideology is hurtful to themselves.
Mostly all german Forgers have abandoned and distanced themselves. The ones remaining are tools, and I´m seeing this tendency in the US, too.

So: We are fighting distasteful and despicable human beings. And thereby, if we herd or scare someone decent into the realms of the Swine, they will not be harmed for life.
Because there is no magical pixie dust, only lies, social retardedness and rather unspectacular, if fun, games going on there. The only ones remaining are the ones who:

earn money from
derive their self respect from


their swinish behaviour.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe last Con I went to (last years Montevideo Comics) I was in a Christian Dior suit, and I try to keep my hair done to match.

RPGpundit

Goddamn, that must've stank like hell.  A suit, in a hot convention room, gaming for a good 12 hours straight?  There's no way I'd survive that, let alone not smell like a dying walrus.

Mate, in every social group bound by an intellectual theory (and probably others), there's a hard core and a soft mushy periphery. The peripheral RPG theorists - the guys who aren't committed to the theory so much as the games, or to the chance to discuss RPGs in an intellectual way are usually open to reasonable persuasion if it's made in a skillful way.

I've been reading a lot about Hegel lately, and one of the things that consistently comes up about him is useful to us, I think. Hegel developed a particular method of criticising his predecessors and opponents where he took every effort he could to understand their views and concerns, then developed it even further than they had. This allowed him to point out the flaws in their positions, and show how his own positions more cogently resolved the concerns they had.

To win over that mushy periphery, the guys who don't have a personal committment to GNS and Big Model etc. it's necessary to develop a conception of roleplaying that more cogently resolves the concerns they have, and then to demonstrate to them that this is the case. This is why my criticism of RPG theory has always been (and will always be) that it is insufficiently rigorous and critical. It does not tell us enough that is interesting about games, and instead focuses on vacuous generalities. I not only believe that, but I also believe it is a more effective criticism to make to RPG theorists, because it takes their concerns more seriously than the current means at their disposal (RPG theory) do.

Pseudo,

Now we are talking about the best strategy for engaging this problematic group. Fine!
But I fear, your approach has merits but is nín danger of missing the mark.

See, your approach is based upon the rational principle. That is, you assume that facts and rigorous thinking will convince. But it only does in an environment where sound thinking and clear logic is valued in itself.

As an example, there are many times, were someone said something worhtwhile, were I said: "Well, that´s correct! I have to rethink my position!". Because it´s more shameful for me to keep erring than to have erred.

This is not the intellectual climate of the Forge, I fear. There is intellectual refelction going on, but there is no intellectual culture.

Even moreso: You are saying, that the problem is a cognitive one, a problem of GNS.

I think we would have this problem without GNS. We had it before with Vampire and RuneQuest, GNS is just a means.

So, you might say, let´s take away their tools!
But that already happened. You will not find anybody who is defending GNS succesfully. The Big Model has been thoroughly and systematically refuted.

Look at this thread: is GNS the problem here? No! It´s a certain kind of human behaviour! Nobody even bothered discussing GNS. That´s because it´s neither about the games, nor about GNS, but all about people´s behaviour.

Actually, I must admit I like Pseudoephedrine's Hegelian approach... at least in theory. It might not be as effective, because games are lot of emotional and not that much rational, but it sounds worth trying.

Quote from: Kyle AaronNot really. It's just that your posts indicate that you think women are only good for fucking. Okay, you want to live your life like that, not our problem. But it'd be good if you could hold that opinion back a bit from time to time. It doesn't help. It makes them feel as welcome here as we would if we went to some female-dominated board and found they thought that men were only good for paying the bills, or something.

It's just not terribly welcoming. We can be rough and tough in our talk, but rough and tough with people as individuals, not treating them as homogenous members of some class, whether it be fuckable women, or whatever.

I've never been anything but polite to the few women who've posted on this board, or to any woman on any board (or at least, if I was impolite it had fuck all to do with their gender).  Unlike you who seem so fucking desperate to prove something about yourself with your little "sensitive and indignant man" routine.

QuoteYou know, Nina the rpg.net admin gets discussed here and people talk about whether she's worth titfucking, someone mentions Condoleeza Rice and it's all about hotornot,

Neither of which I participated in at all.

QuoteRPGPundit mentions WW gamers and it's about whether their female fans are more or less fuckable than other rpg female fans.

Yes. Every single time I've talked about WW gamers its been for that purpose.  :rolleyes:

QuoteThey don't really have to be delicate little flowers in need of manly protection to be pissed off by that. In fact, they definitely don't need protection because they just don't come here. It's a boy's club - not even a men's club, but a boy's club. Men can show restraint; only boys never restrain themselves.

Get over yourself you fucking tool.

I've never seen you have so much as an ounce of self-restraint when it comes to actually posting what you fucking preach, you hypocritical scumsucker.

RPGPundit

Quote from: J ArcaneGoddamn, that must've stank like hell.  A suit, in a hot convention room, gaming for a good 12 hours straight?  There's no way I'd survive that, let alone not smell like a dying walrus.

Eh, its alright; I'm used to wearing suits in latinamerica. Also, the nerds down in Uruguay are much cleaner and less socially retarded than north american nerds.  We use these things called deodorant; and perfume. And some of us smoke pipes. And we shower daily at least!

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditEh, its alright; I'm used to wearing suits in latinamerica. Also, the nerds down in Uruguay are much cleaner and less socially retarded than north american nerds.  We use these things called deodorant; and perfume. And some of us smoke pipes. And we shower daily at least!

RPGPundit

As a North American nerd, all I have to say is, "Whaddaya tryin' to do here? Start a war?"

Quote from: jeff37923As a North American nerd, all I have to say is, "Whaddaya tryin' to do here? Start a war?"

Nah; and only speaking in generalities. There are certainly some Uruguayan gamers with BO and hygene issues. And there are certainly many North American gamers who don't have those issues.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditNah; and only speaking in generalities. There are certainly some Uruguayan gamers with BO and hygene issues. And there are certainly many North American gamers who don't have those issues.

RPGPundit

You get me in the morning after a shower and the usual grooming - at the start of a convention day I'm fine and dandy .
 After 6 hours plus  of throwing people in the charity jail while wearing vinyl, fake fur, leather and a piece of latex that has a wig attached to it - then yeah I might be little ripe.
HOWEVER, I usually have a decent shower within an hour of the jail closing for the day - if I have enough time.

 Should I go back to the nice jacket avatar?

 Oh and if I had a nicely tailored Christian Dior suit  - I'd wear it to public events.

 Hell yeah.

Nothing wrong with trying your best  to look spiffy.

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarOn a slightly more serious note: I feel much more attractive and normal after looking at those pictures.

No kidding.

Its just the damn irony of the indie story gaming elite being lard ass geeks that gets to me.

I race sailing boats! I think the cycling crowd I run events for are a bunch of lycra wearing mean spirited freaks, but they are positively normal comared to you indie geeks! Christ! What am I doing in this hobby!

NERDSSSSSS!

NEEEEEERRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!

--

Right, what we need is to de geek this hobby. For a start, anyone who goes to RPG cons gets dropped.

You guys are getting more and more childish as this thread goes on.

Quote from: jeff37923As a North American nerd, all I have to say is, "Whaddaya tryin' to do here? Start a war?"

Perhaps that is the true Indie Revolution?

You can say what you want, but I did like the photos of the con. Heck, it's just a bunch of people having fun while they play RPGs, isn't it cool?

Regarding the Swine Wars.

Elitism exists in our hobby, and has always existed. When I read Pundit's rants about swinism, I found his position refreshing. I thought it was time for somebody to call bullshit on certain things I've had to read in some forums, and I thank him for that. But please, don't become what you loathe, if some people like the Forge RPGs, more power to them. If you call "badwrongfun" on them, then you risk becoming a swine.

Let everybody play what they like.

By the way, I like some of the games that have been "associated" (whatever it means) with the Forge, like Burning Wheel, Riddle of Steel and Conspiracy of Shadows.

To the original poster: Welcome to therpgsite.