erm..that's it really. Was d20 the first system to have exact rules for working out the difficulty of various tasks - or if it wasn't, what was?
What do you mean? Various systems over the years have had systematic methods of setting difficulties, some more explicit than D&D. I recall MegaTravller had a standard scale that it set difficulties too, and the same concept is pretty implicit in FUDGE, unless I am missing your meaning.
I think the answer would pretty clearly be "no". D20 D&d was not the first to do so. One that jumps to my mind that had rules for figuring out difficulties for checks that was earlier was Earthdawn, but I'm sure there were lots of games that did so before it. It seems to be a pretty common feature from my experience.
In addition to the systems others have mentioned, Interlock, Mekton, FUZION, 7th Sea(Roll-and-Keep), James Bond 007 and many others all incorporated difficulty values in some shape or form years before 3e/d20.
The Interlock-based games (Interlock, Mekton, FUZION), in particular, have a base resolution mechanic similar to D20/D&D (skill+attribute+die vs. TN)
Quote from: Caesar SlaadWhat do you mean?
In my experience, most rpg's will have a way of working out whether a character succeeds or fails at something that isn't covered specifically anywhere else - for example, roll 1d20 and you succeed if it's under the relevant attribute.
Most will have guidelines on allowing for easier or harder tasks (for example, add up to 5 to the roll for unusually hard tasks, or subtract up to 5 for unusually easy ones) and/or for degrees of success (for example, "if you roll a natural 1, this is a critical success"),
What I'm talking about is something like this from the SRD:
"DC15: Predict the weather up to 24 hours in advance. For every 5 points by which your Survival check result exceeds 15, you can predict the weather for one additional day in advance."
So if a character asks if they can tell if it's going to rain, the DM doesn't have to set a difficulty for doing that, and if the result is (eg) 18, they don't have to make up what that result means.
Quote from: Age of FableWhat I'm talking about is something like this from the SRD:
"DC15: Predict the weather up to 24 hours in advance. For every 5 points by which your Survival check result exceeds 15, you can predict the weather for one additional day in advance."
So if a character asks if they can tell if it's going to rain, the DM doesn't have to set a difficulty for doing that, and if the result is (eg) 18, they don't have to make up what that result means.
So is what you are getting at less setting difficulties and more "explicit and different levels of success". I think there have been a few of those as well, though many are fairly general.
Quote from: Age of Fable"DC15: Predict the weather up to 24 hours in advance. For every 5 points by which your Survival check result exceeds 15, you can predict the weather for one additional day in advance."
So if a character asks if they can tell if it's going to rain, the DM doesn't have to set a difficulty for doing that, and if the result is (eg) 18, they don't have to make up what that result means.
It sounds like what you are asking (and be I brave for trying to speak for you) is if D&D/d20 was the first system to utilize "levels of success" to determine various stages of accomplishment and/or failure via a TN mechanic?
The answer to that would still be "no." Unisystem, I believe, beat 3e by about a year or so with AFMBE. James Bond 007 (1983) had a very intricate percentile-based system allowing for up to four success levels for any task.
WEG's Star Wars (1st edition, yo') was my first inkling of the whole "static target number," approach to task resolution.
Didn't FGU do this back in '81. I am sure all their games from Aftermath to Davedevils to Bushido used the same base skill system with effect numbers. You needed to score so many effect numbers to complete a task and each skill check took a period of time. So to carve a jade statuette into a mermaid might be a 10 point task using sculpture and you get 1 skill roll per day.
When you did a d20 skill roll the number less than the target was taken off the effect number until you masses enough success. Difficulty modifiers were applied to the skill check. You could add effect numbers to the original target to do a better job. So to carve an exquisite mermaid migh be a 15 point task.
Seemed to work provided you had time constraints otherwise anyone with a skill could eventually achieve any effect number just through repeating the task many many many times.
Doesn't work so well with non task driven skills mind so the weather check is not an ideal compare but the effect number idea was easily adapted.
Can I tell if its goign to rain tomorrow.
Make a survival check.
Okay my skill is 13 , rolls 7 - effect number 6
Gm has determined that this is a non modified check and every additional 5 effect points will give an extra day's information
Yeah you think it will rian tomorrow from the look of that cloud from to the East. In fact you think you are in for a couple of days of rain.
Quote from: Age of FableWhat I'm talking about is something like this from the SRD:
"DC15: Predict the weather up to 24 hours in advance. For every 5 points by which your Survival check result exceeds 15, you can predict the weather for one additional day in advance."
So if a character asks if they can tell if it's going to rain, the DM doesn't have to set a difficulty for doing that, and if the result is (eg) 18, they don't have to make up what that result means.
One example from 1977 on. Classic Traveller (CT) is chock (too) full of such paragraphs, with Dice Modifiers (DM) and applicable skills (and levels of) listed. It didn't have an explicit, universal difficulty level chart per se. There's an implied one, either starting at 6 or 8, depending on how you look at it.
Digest Group Publications streamlined the DMs and published the Universal Task Profile (UTP) in Traveller's Digest during the later days of CT. Incorporated into MegaTraveller, which has plenty of such examples.
UTP PDF (http://traveller.downport.com/ct/UTP.pdf) from here (http://www.downport.com/traveller/ct/). I think that's not as detailed as the version in MegaTraveller, which IMO is a bit clunky.
Quote from: jibbajibbaCan I tell if its goign to rain tomorrow.
Make a survival check.
Okay my skill is 13 , rolls 7 - effect number 6
Gm has determined that this is a non modified check and every additional 5 effect points will give an extra day's information
Yeah you think it will rian tomorrow from the look of that cloud from to the East. In fact you think you are in for a couple of days of rain.
What I'm talking about is more that the rules would specifically say that every additional 5 points = an extra day's information.
Quote from: Casey777One example from 1977 on. Classic Traveller (CT) is chock (too) full of such paragraphs, with Dice Modifiers (DM) and applicable skills (and levels of) listed. It didn't have an explicit, universal difficulty level chart per se. There's an implied one, either starting at 6 or 8, depending on how you look at it.
Digest Group Publications streamlined the DMs and published the Universal Task Profile (UTP) in Traveller's Digest during the later days of CT. Incorporated into MegaTraveller, which has plenty of such examples.
UTP PDF (http://traveller.downport.com/ct/UTP.pdf) from here (http://www.downport.com/traveller/ct/). I think that's not as detailed as the version in MegaTraveller, which IMO is a bit clunky.
This looks more like what I'm talking about. I'm assuming that there's also a list which says something like "forging a signature is..." such and such difficulty?
Quote from: Age of FableIn my experience, most rpg's will have a way of working out whether a character succeeds or fails at something that isn't covered specifically anywhere else - for example, roll 1d20 and you succeed if it's under the relevant attribute.
Then you need to get around more. ;) For example Shadowrun 3e (1998) has things like targets and modifiers in excruciating detail for skills. I don't recall exactly how 1e/2e did it (going back to 1989), I never actually played them just a quick perusal, but it was at least similar. Of course it is skill based so that makes a lot of sense.
So no, 3e wasn't even close to first. What you describe is in my experience
uncommon. In fact the only place I recall using something like that was AD&D (although it could have been a house rule? I never DMed using it, it seemed silly when you looked at the odds)
Quote from: Age of Fableerm..that's it really. Was d20 the first system to have exact rules for working out the difficulty of various tasks - or if it wasn't, what was?
No. There was also FUDGE. Simple as could be. Four six-sided dice. Two sides with plusses, two sides blank, two sides with minuses on them. The plusses determined the challenge level overcome thusly...
+++++ Legendary
++++ Superb
+++ Great
++ Good
+ Fair
0 Mediocre
- Poor
-- Terrible
--- Disastrous
---- Catastrophic
You would need three plusses or better to beat a Great Challenge... and could only meet a Legendary Challenge provided you had some other circumstance modifier in your favor.
Ummmm... Vampire?
Shadowrun did it even more explicitly before that.
Rolemaster and MERP both had a fixed difficulty scale in their earliest incarnations.
Like I've always said, with third edition, D&D finally caught up with early eighties game design.
The first game I remember that had specific target numbers for skill checks in a graduated series was R. Talsorian Games' Mekton 2. IIRC, that one came out in 1983 or so, I know it was before Megatraveller.
Quote from: DangerWEG's Star Wars (1st edition, yo') was my first inkling of the whole "static target number," approach to task resolution.
Same here. That's definitely the system I associate the concept with. the first time I read 3.5, my reaction to DC was "Hey, I recognize that from WEG."
Quote from: David JohansenLike I've always said, with third edition, D&D finally caught up with early eighties game design.
That kind of 'catching up' reminds me of Fonzie waterskiing over the shark on Happy Days or Chuck Berry singing My-Ding-a-Ling.
Quote from: LancerIt sounds like what you are asking (and be I brave for trying to speak for you) is if D&D/d20 was the first system to utilize "levels of success" to determine various stages of accomplishment and/or failure via a TN mechanic?
The answer to that would still be "no." [...]
Quote from: jibbajabbaDidn't FGU do this back in '81. I am sure all their games from Aftermath to Davedevils to Bushido used the same base skill system with effect numbers.
My copy of
Aftermath! (1981) says,
"The Basic Chance of Success (BCS) [...] will be modified by various factors to give the Adjusted BCS. It is this number tha the player must roll less than or equal to on 1D20 in order for the character to be successful in using that Skill. [...]
"In order to gauge the results of an application of some Skills, an Effect Number is used. The Effect Number is the difference between the Basic Chance of Success die roll result and the modified Base Chance of Success."
That's the old-fashioned roundabout wargames-rules-style way of saying, "your skill will be modified according to the situation, you have to roll under that modified skill to do it right, and the more you make your roll by, the better your result."
And as Casey said, classic
Traveller had lots of this stuff.
d20 is way behind :)
Quote from: David JohansenRolemaster and MERP both had a fixed difficulty scale in their earliest incarnations.
Like I've always said, with third edition, D&D finally caught up with early eighties game design.
I always had the impression that D&D3 finally got what other games already had since a long time ago, like a decent skill system.
Quote from: ClaudiusI always had the impression that D&D3 finally got what other games already had since a long time ago, like a decent skill system.
That's pretty much it. Now with 4e they are adding something to do with the Skills. ;)
Quote from: GameDaddyNo. There was also FUDGE. Simple as could be. Four six-sided dice. Two sides with plusses, two sides blank, two sides with minuses on them. The plusses determined the challenge level overcome thusly...
+++++ Legendary
++++ Superb
+++ Great
++ Good
+ Fair
0 Mediocre
- Poor
-- Terrible
--- Disastrous
---- Catastrophic
You would need three plusses or better to beat a Great Challenge... and could only meet a Legendary Challenge provided you had some other circumstance modifier in your favor.
FUDGE doesn't seem to spell out (for example) when tracking someone requires a Superb effort and when it only requires a Good one.
Quote from: Age of FableFUDGE doesn't seem to spell out (for example) when tracking someone requires a Superb effort and when it only requires a Good one.
Sure does. If the Ranger you are trying to track has Good hiding skills, you will need to roll better than good to even spot him (barring any other mods, such as for delay in tracking and prevailing weather).
Quote from: GameDaddySure does. If the Ranger you are trying to track has Good hiding skills, you will need to roll better than good to even spot him (barring any other mods, such as for delay in tracking and prevailing weather).
That's the simple case of the opposed skill check.
When it comes to simple skill check, FUDGE isn't very detailed. It's not that type of game.
That wasn't a criticism by the way. My impression of FUDGE was that it's intended to be a 'system for making an RPG' more than an RPG.
Quote from: KrakaJakUmmmm... Vampire?
I had a quick look at the old version, it seemed like it kind of did...as an example, how would a character forge a document (assuming that that's the kind of thing that characters are meant to be doing)?
From a specific example in Interlock/Mekton Z-
Say for Technical Skills..
Basic Repair allows you to repair subsequently more complicated devices the higher your level in the skill is.
At a +3, you can fix minor car problems..
At a +6 or better you can repair stereos..
At +9 or better, you can build a computer from scratch and maintain most industrial machinery..etc.
And many of the skills have this sort of breakdown by proficiency.
Quote from: ClaudiusI always had the impression that D&D3 finally got what other games already had since a long time ago, like a decent skill system.
With any luck, by 5e or so, they may "catch up" even further by axing classes in favor of a decent skill-based system.. But I doubt it.
Quote from: LancerWith any luck, by 5e or so, they may "catch up" even further by axing classes in favor of a decent skill-based system.. But I doubt it.
You see, what you guys are calling "catch up" is really "using proven methods".
Classes are a proven method.
Your taste to the contrary doesn't make D&D "behind" in this regard.
Quote from: Age of FableI had a quick look at the old version, it seemed like it kind of did...as an example, how would a character forge a document (assuming that that's the kind of thing that characters are meant to be doing)?
Forgery doesn't per se have a fixed difficulties, since it is based on the complexity of the document. However, it does have an involved system. From 1st edition Vampire:
QuoteThis system is designed to allow characters to forge documents. Two rolls are required, one to know what type of forms and signatures are necessary, and the other to actually sit down and forge the papers. You are only able to roll as many dice on the second roll as you achieved successes on the first roll. It is very difficult to successfully forge documents. You may wish to roll the second roll yourself, so that the player does not know exactly how good the forgery is.
The first roll is made using Intelligence + Bureaucracy (in some cases Linguistics is necessary). The difficulty is based on the complexity of the document being forged (average is 6). A failure indicates that not enough is known about the nature of these papers and that some research must be performed. Another roll can be made after a period of hours or days. A botch indicates that the character has no clue what they are doing, and cannot try to make the roll again unless some new information is found.
The second roll is a Dexterity + Bureaucracy. The difficulty varies but is normally a 6. Each success indicates a higher grade of forgery is accomplished -- see the chart below for a general idea of the relative worth. A failure indicates that the paperwork isn't passable at all -- it was too difficult for you and you cannot try again. A botch indicates that some fatal flaw was made, which will be readily seen by any official to whom the papers are shown.
Successes - Results
One Success - Passable only to a casual glance
Two Successes - Could trick those who have never seen the real thing
Three Successes - Would fool most, but not those familiar with the actual thing
Four Successes - It would take an expert to detect it
Five Successes - Perfect forgery, no one could tell it was a fake
In general, I think the earliest examples of fixed difficulties would be
Thieves Guild (1983) and to some degree
Rolemaster (1980).
To take your original example of weather, Thieves Guild has prediction rules of "
Base chance of predicting events are equal to (TAL - 10) x 3%; training bonuses are added to this roll. If a prediction is successfully made, roll D100 to determine the outcome of the divination. Weather: 0-60 clear; 61-85 cloudy/overcast; 86-00 stormy. ... The basic tenor of an accurate prediction must be followed." The only training bonus to this is higher levels of the farming background skill, incidentally.
Thanks jhkim - that was the kind of thing I was after.
Quote from: Age of FableI had a quick look at the old version, it seemed like it kind of did...as an example, how would a character forge a document (assuming that that's the kind of thing that characters are meant to be doing)?
Forging a document worked like this:
You'd roll Intelligence+Subterfuge (Dicepool). If you were in good conditions (had a top of the line computer and a good scanner, or lots of documents of the person who's handwritng you're imitating) that would lower your target number. Target numbers averaged 7, but ranged between 2 and 10 on a die. If any dice in your pool meet/beat the TN you gain a sucess. 1 Success was squeeking by (might pass a quick inspectiion), 2 successes average all the way up to 5+ successes being an absoutely perfect forgery (the person who you are forging would believe they wrote it themselves).
Edit: This is the system from revised.