When designing a ttrpg you can either choose to ignore D&D or you can choose to consider it carefully in contrast to your design.  The former has always ended in failure, so ignore Dungeons & Dragons at your peril.



[video=youtube_share;mATJKvyYFs8]https://youtu.be/mATJKvyYFs8[/youtube]

I would characterize the situation with alternatives, especially fantasy RPG, is that they need a path to get a hobbyist from what they know about Dungeons & Dragons to playing the new system.

If it a different genre the stereotypical adventures and what the PCs are doing. If it is fantasy, making sure what D&D has is covered in your core book. It can be whatever but you need to define what magic is, give a list of foes and monsters, equipment and so on.

A couple of items.

First of all, I read by coincidence yesterday an old blogpost of the Pundit about why commercial RPGs succeed. His #1 item was Promotion. (Which incidentally makes me wonder if D&D 3.x didn't succeed in spite of "Fucking up". Which in turn would underscore the importance of Promotion even more.) With DSA/TDE in Germany we have evidence regarding the importance of being first, the network effect, having a large canon of source material and the value of promotion. It's combined effect is YUGE.

Secondly, the video glosses over the case of Apocalypse World which contradicts a lot of what you have been saying in this video. And, yes, Dungeon World clearly considered D&D later. Smart move if you do a fantasy RPG. But not every RPG considers D&D. If I design a cyberpunk RPG, I consider Shadowrun and Cyberpunk 2020 and GURPS Cyberpunk.

Thirdly, and this one is the most egregious problem, you're claiming that all RPGs are shaped in the structure of D&D. Well, that is not a very profound insight, given that D&D was the first RPG and these games are being classified as RPGs. But that is just an aside. The real reason why this is a "problematic statement" is that it overlooks the fact that D&D has not inspired the wider world of game design in the last 20+ years, other than popularizing Advantage/Disadvantage in the last edition. To the contrary, D&D has taken up inspiration from innovations that either had become industry standards before (skill subsystem, a unified system or edges & flaws) or has shoplifted other ideas from other games (backgrounds).

In short: for a long, long time now D&D has been way more inspired by the rest of the hobby rather than inspiring it.


I watch this video and then I look at the following nonsense from the Angry GM:

QuoteNow, I recognize just how brilliant, elegant, and revolutionary the D&D 3E was. And how it changed everything about how people play RPGs. It did. Make no mistake. The idea of systematic action adjudication – the idea of a universal set of rules that could be used to consistently and fairly determine the outcome of any action anyone could think of – that idea was BORN with the d20 system.

...and it raises the issue of confirmation bias by people who are clearly fans of Dungeon & Dragons and which probably have a way too D&D-centric view of the hobby, leading to the former.


That said, having designed a fantasy RPG recently I can confirm that considering D&D is part of the process. But not on the rule- or world-design level (in my case).... instead, you consider (and you're explaining this in the video, which redeems it in my eyes) if the game you're envisioning has a niche. As to whether the niche I have chosen is a viable niche, that's a different question, but I think what I am, working on is distinct enough to cater to people who seek a specific experience that they cannot get from other games, not in this form.

Back in the late Seventies, I did consider D&D and I decided that I loved the experience of roleplaying around a table with the various people who gamed in New Haven back in the day but I really didn't like (all of) the rules or I didn't like them enough to use them anymore in the games I was running. So, I wrote different rules. I still play D&D when my friend Simon feels like running a game (mix of OD&D and AD&D1) and I played in a 5e oneshot right before I left Connecticut, but I don't run it. And some of the GM's I used to game with switched to my Glory Road Roleplay over the years.

Wow. Your personal preferences are really showing here. You need to give up on your war against the Swine, you won it already.

If a non-D&D based game cannot achieve either popularity or longevity, then how do you explain Call of Cthulhu, d6 Star Wars, Traveller, Cyberpunk, and Mekton?

I'll take the BRP system of Call of Cthulhu and old Swedish rpgs before D&D any day.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1095736A couple of items.

First of all, I read by coincidence yesterday an old blogpost of the Pundit about why commercial RPGs succeed. His #1 item was Promotion. (Which incidentally makes me wonder if D&D 3.x didn't succeed in spite of "Fucking up". Which in turn would underscore the importance of Promotion even more.) With DSA/TDE in Germany we have evidence regarding the importance of being first, the network effect, having a large canon of source material and the value of promotion. It's combined effect is YUGE.

Secondly, the video glosses over the case of Apocalypse World which contradicts a lot of what you have been saying in this video. And, yes, Dungeon World clearly considered D&D later. Smart move if you do a fantasy RPG. But not every RPG considers D&D. If I design a cyberpunk RPG, I consider Shadowrun and Cyberpunk 2020 and GURPS Cyberpunk.

Thirdly, and this one is the most egregious problem, you're claiming that all RPGs are shaped in the structure of D&D. Well, that is not a very profound insight, given that D&D was the first RPG and these games are being classified as RPGs. But that is just an aside. The real reason why this is a "problematic statement" is that it overlooks the fact that D&D has not inspired the wider world of game design in the last 20+ years, other than popularizing Advantage/Disadvantage in the last edition. To the contrary, D&D has taken up inspiration from innovations that either had become industry standards before (skill subsystem, a unified system or edges & flaws) or has shoplifted other ideas from other games (backgrounds).

In short: for a long, long time now D&D has been way more inspired by the rest of the hobby rather than inspiring it.


I watch this video and then I look at the following nonsense from the Angry GM:


...and it raises the issue of confirmation bias by people who are clearly fans of Dungeon & Dragons and which probably have a way too D&D-centric view of the hobby, leading to the former.


That said, having designed a fantasy RPG recently I can confirm that considering D&D is part of the process. But not on the rule- or world-design level (in my case).... instead, you consider (and you're explaining this in the video, which redeems it in my eyes) if the game you're envisioning has a niche. As to whether the niche I have chosen is a viable niche, that's a different question, but I think what I am, working on is distinct enough to cater to people who seek a specific experience that they cannot get from other games, not in this form.

Great post Alexander, I agree fully. Just one observation:

I think Apocalypse World has more similarities to OSR  games than it shows on its sleeve. In special it's "play to find what happens" ethos that sounds pretty much like the way OSR uses randomizing tables to evoke surprise (even in the GM). I just ain't sure this is something old d&d does cconsistently or if it's more of a modern OSR thing.

D&D is the core of RPG design. You either actively choose to emulate or rebel against various aspects of D&D. And either road is okay.

However, before you emulate or rebel, as a designer you do need to thoroughly understand D&D. The problem most designers cause for themselves is they emulate too much and there's no reason for their game or they rebel too much and now players have few touchstones to understand their game as a RPG (and then it becomes RPG.net's Darling of the Moment).

Of course, if you're making a D100 game or genre specific RPG, you need to understand those as well...plus understanding D&D.

Fortunately, none of this is rocket science.

BTW, right now I am designing a Deck Builder game. That game genre was created and popularized by Dominion and thus, I gotta study Dominion and I'm analyzing how and where I want to emulate versus rebel and analyzing WHY I am making the choices I am. Also, I am paying special attention to deck builder games which have come out since and understanding what they emulated vs. rebelled and WHAT those choices created.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1095739And some of the GM's I used to game with switched to my Glory Road Roleplay over the years.

Will who art in New Haven, please start a thread about your Glory Road Roleplay. With links and all that fun stuff.

And I will try my best to not post links to Steel Panther's Gloryhole video.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1095736...First of all, I read by coincidence yesterday an old blogpost of the Pundit about why commercial RPGs succeed. His #1 item was Promotion.... With DSA/TDE in Germany we have evidence regarding the importance of being first, the network effect, having a large canon of source material and the value of promotion. It's combined effect is YUGE..

Agreed being 1st is huge, but you also have to be 'good enough', to maintain your market leader position.

If you are not, then you run the risk of someone coming out with a better product and becoming the WoW to your EverQuest.

My own thought process on the issue played out here: https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40439-D-amp-D-s-5-point-winning-formula&highlight=winning

Not enough RPG's have payed attention to what made D&D a hit.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1095736Secondly, the video glosses over the case of Apocalypse World which contradicts a lot of what you have been saying in this video. ...

Actually, I would argue that The new genre of "Apocalypse World" games has proven that former Forge Story Game designers  have had to adopt the Traditional RPG GM-Player division paradigm, in order to be successful.

The rules themselves are just clever exception based mechanics that hyper focus on low prep GMing. (With a few narrativist bits for the players thrown in to keep their street cred.)

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1095736Thirdly, and this one is the most egregious problem, you're claiming that all RPGs are shaped in the structure of D&D. Well, that is not a very profound insight, given that D&D was the first RPG and these games are being classified as RPGs. But that is just an aside. The real reason why this is a "problematic statement" is that it overlooks the fact that D&D has not inspired the wider world of game design in the last 20+ years,.

I disagree here. D&D has inspired the wider world of RPG game design.

In all cases other RPGS have been a reaction to what D&D does. So to my mind not problematic per say. Just the default position of the 1st RPG and market leader.


 

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1095736...other than popularizing Advantage/Disadvantage in the last edition. To the contrary, D&D has taken up inspiration from innovations that either had become industry standards before (skill subsystem, a unified system or edges & flaws) or has shoplifted other ideas from other games (backgrounds).

In short: for a long, long time now D&D has been way more inspired by the rest of the hobby rather than inspiring it.

This, I generally agree with. But D&D is in a weird position of not being able to kill too many sacred cows. 4e has shown the fine line that D&D has to walk.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1095736That said, having designed a fantasy RPG recently I can confirm that considering D&D is part of the process. But not on the rule- or world-design level (in my case).... instead, you consider (and you're explaining this in the video, which redeems it in my eyes) if the game you're envisioning has a niche. As to whether the niche I have chosen is a viable niche, that's a different question, but I think what I am, working on is distinct enough to cater to people who seek a specific experience that they cannot get from other games, not in this form.

This.

Actually designing a good RPG that is not d20srd based is really hard.

It is really all about finding you niche, and giving people a reason to give your game a try.

Quote from: jeff37923;1095747...
If a non-D&D based game cannot achieve either popularity or longevity, then how do you explain Call of Cthulhu, d6 Star Wars, Traveller, Cyberpunk, and Mekton?

The gulf in popularity between D&D and these games is .... well, we all know. "Popularity" and "successful" are relative terms when discussing non-D&D rpgs.

Quote from: Jaeger;1095788The gulf in popularity between D&D and these games is .... well, we all know. "Popularity" and "successful" are relative terms when discussing non-D&D rpgs.

And longevity?

d6 Star Wars and Traveller have both survived the death of their parent companies to still remain favorites to this day.

In the case of d6 Star Wars, even FFG has had to concede the game's popularity and impact by printing a 30th Anniversary Edition of the original rules.

(A conceit that I will make here is that in the case of promotion, d6 Star Wars is a significant demonstration since all of the media from the second rise in popularity of Star Wars in the late 80's in the form of novels of the Expanded Universe were based upon material created for the role-playing game. It all acted as advertising.)

Quote from: jeff37923;1095792d6 Star Wars and Traveller have both survived the death of their parent companies to still remain favorites to this day.

Which always makes me wonder why we don't see more popular RPGs using those rules.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1095796Which always makes me wonder why we don't see more popular RPGs using those rules.

More popular? Or more current?

Mongoose Traveller sells pretty well, but people still buy Classic Traveller in CD-ROM form and use Cepheus Engine to create new creator owned content for the game.

FFG Star Wars had to acknowledge the original d6 Star Wars game in a 30th Anniversary Edition and fan made material and conversions are keeping up with all of the new Star Wars media being put out.

The thing is that our consumer culture is geared into believing that NEW is BETTER when that is not always the case. So NEW gets pushed and brought to forefront in FLGS, while the older games are on used book shelves where only those gamers old enough to have played them know how good they are in comparison. You can apply that to D&D as well because if you couldn't, then the bulk of the OSR would not exist.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1095779D&D is the core of RPG design. You either actively choose to emulate or rebel against various aspects of D&D. And either road is okay.

However, before you emulate or rebel, as a designer you do need to thoroughly understand D&D. The problem most designers cause for themselves is they emulate too much and there's no reason for their game or they rebel too much and now players have few touchstones to understand their game as a RPG (and then it becomes RPG.net's Darling of the Moment).

Of course, if you're making a D100 game or genre specific RPG, you need to understand those as well...plus understanding D&D.

Fortunately, none of this is rocket science.

BTW, right now I am designing a Deck Builder game. That game genre was created and popularized by Dominion and thus, I gotta study Dominion and I'm analyzing how and where I want to emulate versus rebel and analyzing WHY I am making the choices I am. Also, I am paying special attention to deck builder games which have come out since and understanding what they emulated vs. rebelled and WHAT those choices created.




Will who art in New Haven, please start a thread about your Glory Road Roleplay. With links and all that fun stuff.

And I will try my best to not post links to Steel Panther's Gloryhole video.

I am now art in Deerfield Beach, Florida. The new version of the game, edited for clarity (which it sorely needed) and somewhat expanded will be out later this month. A link to the game website is in my sig. I will start a thread when the book comes out. If anyone here thinks they might review it, they can send me a PM and I will send them a pre-publication pdf.

Quote from: jeff37923;1095792And longevity?

d6 Star Wars and Traveller have both survived the death of their parent companies to still remain favorites to this day.
...

Personally, I think d6 starwars did a lot of things right from the get go. But IMHO the introduction of the wild die in 2e siginaled the beginning of the end.

The longevity is a good sign that they did something right in system or setting. And have imprinted their influence on the wider hobby.

But both are still very niche systems, and when compared to D&D fantasy elf games - no one really plays them much anymore.

Quote from: Jaeger;1095954. But IMHO the introduction of the wild die in 2e siginaled the beginning of the end.

Well, that and embezzlement.  Or whatever you want to call WEG getting gutted to try and save a shoe company.