Quote from: tzunder;814224In 5e there is enough overlap between the spell lists that wizards posing as clerics would be quite feasible. As long as you assume that magic is quite varied and not immediately recognisable as clerical or arcane, then it's cool.
Plus, who cares? They're baddies, they cast magic, yeeee ha!

5e Warlocks are essentially a hybrid wizard/cleric. Wizard spells granted by god-like beings or things beyond gods.

Theyd make good focus points for cults.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;814194Also, I suppose it's not hard to imagine a lower-level supernatural being "standing in" or "posing" as a deity.  Or an actual deity posing and filling in for a nonexistent one.  An example of this might even be the Temple of Elemental Evil (Zuggtmoy the Demon Queen of Fungi using "elemental evil" as a more attractive front for her cult).

I'd say do a variation of this. On our Earth Christians say that all the old gods and goddesses were really demons in disguise fooling everyone for thousands of years. Odin, Zeus, Ra, "The Baals", all were demons. In a fantasy world you can have actual demons deceiving the masses for as long as you want. Think about it. What differentiates a god from a demon anyway? The number of worshipers one has and the amount of power he can tap into.

As posed, the question is way to dependent on setting (in Ebberron, there is no proof of divine existence and many clerics don't worship gods, for example) and edition for a proper answer.

So I'll base my answer on the following assumptions:

- All divine magic (including ranger and druid magic) is granted by genuine gods only.

- The great wheel cosmology is in place.

- Archfiends, great old ones, etc. do not qualify for divinity.

- 5e rules and implied setting.

- Divine spellcasters are widespread enough to be expected among the devotees.

Given all of this, a fake cult still as a number of possible ways to claim legitimacy:

1. Divine Magic by proxy. Aka the TOEE model. As presented, the Tempel of Elemental Evil is pretty much a bogus cult, possibly all divine spellcasters are granted their Magic by Iuz (or Tardizun, if you use later material). Simply put, in this model, some god not widely worshiped by the fake cult, takes over as puppet master. Most settings in D&D have gods who would be willing to power a cult not dedicated to them, as long as it serves the gods agenda. In the FR, Shar is a notable example throughout all iterations.

2. One True Way'ism. In this model, the cult turns the situation around and claims that their lack of traditional divine is actually proof that they hold the true belief. This cult will probably denounce the existing gods as fakes. A cult like this either eschews magic altogether or has access to some sort of rare and obscure magic they claim to be real divine magic. Expect a good amount of vicious zealotry in adherents.

3. Hide behind mystery. Basically you say "Yeah right, of course we have divine magic, we just can't show you.". This cult just keeps making excuses and tries to disguise them as another facet of their faith (you must pass the seven Seals of Zoggobog to be granted the blessings of Yorg, but then you will raise the dead left and right, I swear!). This cult doesn't hold up well under serious scrutiny, but if it maintains a low profile and only prays on the gullible, it can thrive. Alternatively, this works well for cult that isn't supposed to last, but to gather many converts quickly, so is basically just a part of a Con.

4. Faking it with other spellcasting, magic items and monstrous allies. D&D offers a lot of ways to duplicate the effects of divine magic, notably various monsters (fallen angels, naga, sphinx) and in 5e the bard class. This one has been covered quite well by other posters, so on to the last.

5. Not giving a crap. This cult is a fake and every follower knows it, hell pretty much every one outside eat least suspects it. However, suspecting and providing proof is not the same. This cult provides something not so spiritual under the pretense of faith and probably has powerful backers that make it dangerous to move against it. Cults for the rich and powerful to get richer and more powerful might get away with this, as could pleasure cults, that provide unlimited indulgence behind closed doors and only for the initiated. Might be a front for something much more sinister, such as a pleasure cult that actually consorts with succubi or a pseudo religious cartel that actually brokers diabolical pacts.

Heck, take a look at the whole Church of Satan deal and its offshoots.  Many really do believe in them.

Yet Anton LaVey said openly in The Satanic Bible that to a degree, it was all hooey: "Satan" really didn't exist as a real being, and all the mysticism and trappings set forth in it were pretty much because he opined that mankind has a demonstrable love for mysticism and trappings.

Oh, you missed one, Gold Roger: the cult as tax dodge ... or, in a more fantasy setting, something set up purely to gain the social benefits of being a church, without any particular sinister or criminal motive.

Quote from: Ravenswing;814247]Other than the bullshit concept that it's possible to be a legitimate cleric, with legitimate healing and blessing and clerical powers, just by hooking up with a "philosophical concept?"  (That being always, in my mind, a cheapass dodge for players who wanted to have the cool powers without having to follow any of those boring roleplaying constraints, follow any doctrine or dogma they didn't write themselves, or take a stand on anything.)

It seems to me that a philosophical concept could easily be more conducive to all those things than the typical nebulous and vague RPG-setting gods, honestly. What can anyone here tell me about Bahamut's dogma, or how Shar feels about eating meat on Fridays, or what the proper language to deliver prayer unto Boccob is? But I digress.

Quote from: RPGPundit;814150How would you go about, in the standard D&D world (with Clerical magic, etc.) designing a religious movement that in fact is not aligned with any god (not just, say, an evil cult pretending to be good or a chaotic cult pretending to be lawful or something like that)?  How would it be possible to 'fake' being a real religion with a real deity that has real clerics?

My first impulse is to rely upon a powerful magic item as a source for the cult's seeming to tap into true diving magic. I suppose another possibility is they could eschew divine magic all together. Claiming that real clerics are just getting their powers from demons. That might not gain a huge following but probably could get enough extremist nuts to join that cause and cause problems. The cult might consist more of bards, fighters and thieves (possibly magic users as well depending on their attitude toward arcane magic) than clerics.

Quote from: LibraryLass;814330It seems to me that a philosophical concept could easily be more conducive to all those things than the typical nebulous and vague RPG-setting gods, honestly. What can anyone here tell me about Bahamut's dogma, or how Shar feels about eating meat on Fridays, or what the proper language to deliver prayer unto Boccob is? But I digress.

It's one of the several reasons I've been saying for years that the vast majority of RPGs suck at religion.  All most of them give us are variations of "Bunsgrabber is the God of Partying Down.  His alignment is Chaotic Horny.  He is depicted as a young man with a great tan, wearing cutoffs of purest gold.  His priests always wear sunshades and strange caps with horizontal visors pointing backwards, and his High Temple is at the coastal fort of Lauderdale."  And that's pretty much it.

I'd just much rather the answer to the problem be that RPGs do a great deal better job of fleshing out such a major aspect of gameplay, rather than throw up their hands and say "Why bother?"

Was one reason why in Red Shetland there werent any organized clergy really. Just cults and a baser following of the general populus.

Some great ideas here.  I had pretty much thought about the whole "demon mimics clerical powers" thing, but was looking for something more original.  I quite like the "aliens using high tech" thing, and the "radical anti-magic religion that goes so far as to 'ban' cleric magic too" thing.

Plant wildly over-wrought and completely fictitious rumours about secret ancient knowledge possessed by the sworn-to-secrecy cultists. Much like, dare I say it, the Freemasons.

Quote from: Kellri;814975Plant wildly over-wrought and completely fictitious rumours about secret ancient knowledge possessed by the sworn-to-secrecy cultists. Much like, dare I say it, the Freemasons.

Hah!  

I think that's a good one, but in a world of really visible magic (like, Fireballs or Cure Light Wounds), you'd need to show some kind of 'proof' to get any kind of credibility; you'd have to have at least a couple of visible tricks to draw people in.

Communism and the cult of State. Magic and religion has been used for millennia to control and dominate the People. Only by removing those powers will everyone finally be equal.

Magic and religion are thus illegal and punishable by death. Clerics are outright killed, while magic users are chained and used (used up and killed) and abused to fight the evils of Magic and Religion.

This works better when there is a Nation that has already purged itself of this evil, the people are now totally indoctrinated into the Cult of State. They become a threat when they now turn their sights on cleansing the rest of the world. This might start by cultists moving into neighboring kingdoms to spread their "gospel", but these are just the front runners to eventual invasion, domination, and purging.

Quote from: RPGPundit;814931Some great ideas here.  I had pretty much thought about the whole "demon mimics clerical powers" thing, but was looking for something more original.

This is why Id like to see the Warlock with a path that allows access to some clerical spells. Would make their pseudo-priest aspect more interesting as the line blurrs between the two.

Quote from: RPGPundit;815523Hah!  

I think that's a good one, but in a world of really visible magic (like, Fireballs or Cure Light Wounds), you'd need to show some kind of 'proof' to get any kind of credibility; you'd have to have at least a couple of visible tricks to draw people in.

Not if you present the secrets as really deep in high tier secrets. Even in D&D settings theres stuff that you wont see regularly because its so deep into the class or used well away from the populace. Or at least should be.

Someone selling a "quick path to power" will draw people in with promises of sights unseen. Or a few displays via concealed magic items.

Or even claiming the item is just a "spell focus" for their own power.

Or like in Dragon Storm where the Necros have everyone believing that they are holding back the Dragon Storms and helping the towns they protect by taming anyone mutated by the storms and taking them away for their own good. When its they who are calling them to try and activate any latent shifters and create a few minions from the nirmal folk who just mutate. Monsters who then get blamed for the storm because well. There they are in a storm. They must have caused it! Get em!

As an added bonus. They take in apprentices regularly with promises of power. But really they are setting them up to either drain them later, or on the off chance an apprentice makes a discovery.

Quote from: LibraryLass;814330It seems to me that a philosophical concept could easily be more conducive to all those things than the typical nebulous and vague RPG-setting gods, honestly. What can anyone here tell me about Bahamut's dogma, or how Shar feels about eating meat on Fridays, or what the proper language to deliver prayer unto Boccob is? But I digress.

Actually, the 1st or 2nd edition Forgotten Realms book about their gods came pretty close to delivering that, if not succeding. And, Mitlanyal is the book of the 10 gods of Tekumel and their servants. It does go into that much detail. And, is a pretty cool read too. You can actually gloss over details that aren't important now, but bring them up in context when they are important later.

To answer the question from the OP, I allow magicians to make nearly any kind of potion, including healing potions. That allows for false or "pagan" gods to supply all of their perishoner's needs, while the true or "orthodox" temples can offer their cures.