Quote from: gleichmanBecause historical fiction covers a lot of ground, and some of it in conflict with others. The SPI game actually included the doctrines it was simulating in it'd designer notes for example and noted some of the larger issues it excluded.

I would have figured that anyone who cared about it would already know the material. That's my take anyway.

Quote from: gleichmanBack to your game- what fiction, what elements? How do you view this in relation to the real history of the time? Why did you pick the die mechanic you did and what am I the user gaining from it?

All that is quite important to me.

This isn't the thread for this, but all the questions except the last were answered in the page and a half long intro. I also included a reference bibliography of fiction and non-fiction I used as background material. The last I didn't answer at all, as the why isn't all that important to me, and I'm working on several alternative systems that can be dropped in anyway.

-clash

Quote from: gleichmanBecause historical fiction covers a lot of ground, and some of it in conflict with others. The SPI game actually included the doctrines it was simulating in it'd designer notes for example and noted some of the larger issues it excluded.

It also oddly enough invokes trust in the player. Here's an example:

SPI's Airwar (often rated as the most complex wargame ever, and one of my all time favorites) noted in their designer notes that the wing bank for a certain maneuver was reversed from reality and why (and noted that in the end the effect was the same). This instilled trust in their knowledge and resulted in me assuming that any other 'errors' of design were likely along this same line.

Meanwhile the authors of At the Mountains of Maddness put their adventure forward as a reasonably good set of rules about what it was like to travel in the extreme cold of their setting. But they completely botched how firearms operate in said settings (and firearms- and how they operated were a major element of their plot). I noticed that mistake, and without designer notes that indicated that it was on purpose (it wasn't, but that's another issue and one to the author's credit)- I doubted everything else there about cold weather travel. If I wanted to run the module in that fashion, I'd have to redo all their research if I wanted to meet my goal.


Back to your game- what fiction, what elements? How do you view this in relation to the real history of the time? Why did you pick the die mechanic you did and what am I the user gaining from it?

All that is quite important to me.

Why....why must the people I respect argue.  It does nothing but tear the family apart and us kids are left...oh..wait..ummm..

Yeah, I can see a reason for both positions.  I think part of it might be in how the book is to be used in relation to the game, for one thing.  I say this because I've never had a sidebar get in the way of rule lookups for me, but Mr. Gleichman obviously does.

My most recent favortie is in the DMG where they explain the AC and how it's really just a take 10 roll for the opponent so if you want to do opposed rolls don't sweat it (basically).

So it all depends, to me, on what the designer notes are used for.  Rules are rules - it's what you use to play the game.  Notes are to explain why a rule was chosen and what it's impact is.  I suspect that you'll find people interested in game design love designer notes and those that aren't, don't.  But that's just stating the obvious - imagine that.

Quote from: flyingmiceI would have figured that anyone who cared about it would already know the material. That's my take anyway.

Know the material? Perhaps, perhaps they just saw an Hornblower or two on TV.

But knowing the material doesn't give me a clue as how you viewed the material- and then translated it into a game. I've seen a number of people attempt LotR games for example, oddly enough they are all vastly different than say Age of Heroes (my own go at the subject).

Why is that? Designer notes should explain that. Mine for example did.

Quote from: flyingmiceThis isn't the thread for this, but all the questions except the last were answered in the intro.

The intro can be the place where Designer Notes appear. However if you consider those questions answered with a sentence or two- I know I would be disappointed. IME it takes 5-10 pages to explain core elements of a design.

Quote from: flyingmiceI also included a reference bibliography of fiction and non-fiction I used as background material.

Doesn't tell me anything. Did one include the 1951 movie Captain Horatio Hornblower R.N because of the Naval Battles, the romance triangle set against the sea, something else in the movie, all the above, or just because it was an Age of Sail movie.

All the answers indicate advantages and disadvantages to the game's approach.

Quote from: flyingmiceThe last I didn't answer at all, as the why isn't all that important to me, and I'm working on several alternative systems that can be dropped in anyway.

And that tells me something as well.

Quote from: James J SkachWhy....why must the people I respect argue.  It does nothing but tear the family apart and us kids are left...oh..wait..ummm..

Gleichman and I aren't arguing. We're stating preferences, and asking questions. So far, he's given me far better reasons for that preference than anyone else has, which makes it interesting.

-clash

Quote from: James J SkachRules are rules - it's what you use to play the game.  Notes are to explain why a rule was chosen and what it's impact is.

Impact is important for those who wise to do house rules, without knowning what the intent was- one may be changing something that has undesired results.

Quote from: James J SkachI suspect that you'll find people interested in game design love designer notes and those that aren't, don't.  But that's just stating the obvious - imagine that.

Yes and No.

The designer notes I included in Age of Heroes seemed to have far more impact than that- causing people to change their views not only of that game (from it's "a fantasy heartbreaker", to "it does what it was designed to do"), but other games as well.

Designer notes can be the first step someone takes to see what it actually means to design games. Don't include them, and their only option may be the Forge and it's related theory sites.

Ah, Clash, my view is probably not popular. Most designer notes, IME, are guys talking about themselves to tell you how brilliant they are. A whole chapter explaining how to use the rules that explain how to play in the setting? Damn silly and way too self indulgent. Yeah, introductions are cool. A quick "This is my thought on the matter" kind of thing. Personally, and I acknowledge that I may be the only one with this opinion, you (the designer) should be able to sum up everything in a few paragraphs. More than that and you are telling the reader how brilliant you are and not showing them.

YMMV,
Bill

I've always liked them.

Not so much if it's just a brag session about how great the game is (the customers will be the judge of that) or how bad another game is.

OTOH, if a designer puts notes in saying what drove them to make the design decisions they did: I love that.

plus there are those jackass players that want to knock a game for not playing a certain way. So, the designer notes can be a place to say what the game is and isn't in the most plain way.

Quote from: gleichmanImpact is important for those who wise to do house rules, without knowning what the intent was- one may be changing something that has undesired results.

Yea, again I was stating the obvious - I wasn't disagreeing. I was more or less agreeing with those that, I think, are saying they should not be used to talk about how this or that idea changed their entire perspective on gaming and this ruleset embodies those principles blah blah blah I'm great and smart yadda yadda.

The designer notes I included in Age of Heroes seemed to have far more impact than that- causing people to change their views not only of that game (from it's "a fantasy heartbreaker", to "it does what it was designed to do"), but other games as well.

Quote from: gleichmanDesigner notes can be the first step someone takes to seee what it actually means to design games. Don't include them, and their only option may be the Forge and it's related theory sites.

Again, I wouldn't disagree.  I'm speaking in large generalities.

Quote from: HinterWeltAh, Clash, my view is probably not popular. Most designer notes, IME, are guys talking about themselves to tell you how brilliant they are.

I haven't seen many of this type, outside of WoD products anyway (and frankly I only brought and read one of those). Most games don't have designer notes of any kind.

Perhaps I've missed the boat on some recent publications.

Quote from: flyingmiceGleichman and I aren't arguing. We're stating preferences, and asking questions. So far, he's given me far better reasons for that preference than anyone else has, which makes it interesting.

Agreed, I don't see much of an argument here.

Some of it seems to be semantics, some of seems driven by things I haven't encountered much (Ego Driven Designer Notes), and the rest by preference.

Quote from: McrowI've always liked them.

Not so much if it's just a brag session about how great the game is (the customers will be the judge of that) or how bad another game is.

OTOH, if a designer puts notes in saying what drove them to make the design decisions they did: I love that.

plus there are those jackass players that want to knock a game for not playing a certain way. So, the designer notes can be a place to say what the game is and isn't in the most plain way.

I don't have issue with designer's notes but a whole chapter of meta-blah blah is tedious. To me, a good use of designer's notes are part of the rules. They flow as part of the explanation. Meta discussion as to your personal brilliance is, well, tedious to me.

And Mike, you know me, I am a verbose so-and-so!

Bill

Quote from: gleichmanKnow the material? Perhaps, perhaps they just saw an Hornblower or two on TV.

Actually, that was a reference to your initial example of the technical difference in the SPI game. Anyone who would spot that and think it an error would also know enough to understand why it was done with a one or two sentence answer.

Quote from: gleichmanBut knowing the material doesn't give me a clue as how you viewed the material- and then translated it into a game. I've seen a number of people attempt LotR games for example, oddly enough they are all vastly different than say Age of Heroes (my own go at the subject).

Why is that? Designer notes should explain that. Mine for example did.

Why should they? What does that matter to someone just playing the game?

Quote from: gleichmanThe intro can be the place where Designer Notes appear. However if you consider those questions answered with a sentence or two- I know I would be disappointed. IME it takes 5-10 pages to explain core elements of a design.

The intro was about a page and a half, and could be considered the Designer's Notes if you stretch it. Not 5-10 pages, but not a sentence or two. Watching a Hornblower movie and reading the intro should be enough in my estimation to prep the player or GM.  

Quote from: gleichmanDoesn't tell me anything. Did one include the 1951 movie Captain Horatio Hornblower R.N because of the Naval Battles, the romance triangle set against the sea, something else in the movie, all the above, or just because it was an Age of Sail movie.

All the answers indicate advantages and disadvantages to the game's approach.

So would reading the rules.

Quote from: gleichmanAnd that tells me something as well.

Well, good. It should tell you that I'm a systems-doesn't-matter-all-that-much-and-besides-people-like-and-dislike-things-for-irrational-reasons-anyway-man. That would be true. Slotting other TR systems in would allow for individual preferences and different flavors. I prefer leaving such things to the customer. My tastes are far from universal.

-clash

Quote from: HinterWeltAh, Clash, my view is probably not popular. Most designer notes, IME, are guys talking about themselves to tell you how brilliant they are. A whole chapter explaining how to use the rules that explain how to play in the setting? Damn silly and way too self indulgent. Yeah, introductions are cool. A quick "This is my thought on the matter" kind of thing. Personally, and I acknowledge that I may be the only one with this opinion, you (the designer) should be able to sum up everything in a few paragraphs. More than that and you are telling the reader how brilliant you are and not showing them.

YMMV,
Bill

What Bill Said. I've seen this far too often.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceActually, that was a reference to your initial example of the technical difference in the SPI game. Anyone who would spot that and think it an error would also know enough to understand why it was done with a one or two sentence answer.

I didn't know it was an error, but the fact they included it in their notes as one indicated to me how seriously they approached their subject. And gave me faith in the result- without them paying "I am of God of game design, and this game is perfect" cards that i see others reference.

Quote from: flyingmiceWhy should they? What does that matter to someone just playing the game?

Because it can help people select games that focus on their own desired elements without reading all the rules in detail before hand. And it can help other people learn how to house rule and design if their interest turns in that direction.

And because people are curious.

The person "just playing the game" of course may not make use of them. They likely won't bother reading them either (and often IME won't even read the rules). That's why they are best suited at the back of the work- out of the way but present for those who need the information.

Quote from: flyingmiceWell, good. It should tell you that I'm a systems-doesn't-matter-all-that-much-and-besides-people-like-and-dislike-things-for-irrational-reasons-anyway-man. That would be true. Slotting other TR systems in would allow for individual preferences and different flavors. I prefer leaving such things to the customer. My tastes are far from universal.

Then one must ask, why even include a game system? Why not setting books instead?

Quote from: gleichmanThen one must ask, why even include a game system? Why not setting books instead?

Because a dice system - i.e. task resolution system - is not all the rules. It is a pretty minor part of them, actually, for me.

-clash