I like the notes in 2nd edition WFRP - just a couple of sides about the history of the edition in question, as opposed to a detailed explanation of every single design decision. I do like to know about the thinking behind design decisions, but I prefer it if such clarifications are actually part of the rules text.

I also think designers notes aren't quite as useful as a decent example of play. A good, archetypal example of what the designers think a session of their game would play out like can speak volumes.

I flamed you, err, responded to your comments on tBP. I'll summarize here.

I really liked the designers notes in Starcluster 2. They were in a separate section in the back where I could easily ignore them if I wanted. I can't stand notes interspersed with the rules (usually in a different colored sidebar) where my attention is constantly drawn to them.

I like dull, drab, matter of fact design notes that explain why something is the way it is, and especially without any presumptions as to why it is "superior" to other games or systems. It's fine to say "we just liked the way this method worked for us". It's not OK to say "we got so sick of the stupid critical rolls in Rolemaster that we needed to do this instead". Also, any type of tongue-in-cheek over-the-top humor is going to come across as elitist.

A lot of game designers criticize other games in their design notes. Maybe not intentionally, maybe not directly, but as a reader you definitely pick up the vibe. I'd be willing to bet there are more fans turned off by criticisms of a system than there are disgruntled people looking for something new that like your rants.

Design notes often help explain how the rules work in addition to why they work. They can help clarify sometimes muddy rules.

Quote from: flyingmiceWhat if those reasonings were integrated with the rules section rather than being separated out in the DN?

I don't care whether you deliver designer notes in sidebars/footnotes/rule explanations or in an own chapter.
As always, it depends on what you want to accomplish. If there isn't much interconnection between different rule complexes and the rules are generally clear enough to don't really need designer notes, integration is a good choice. CP2020 does this nice (as long as you ignore the fantasy RPG mockeries).
If your game is strongly interconnected, has an unusual whole concept and/or the rules reasonings are vague in and of itself, an own chapter can be more useful. This applies mostly to forgy and other non-traditional games, so I don't think it's especially useful for your products.

It really depends. I can't say I miss them for most games.

But for my fave supers game of all time, DC Heroes, the designer's notes were gold.

I have always felt that if you need a whole chapter to explain the rules that are supposed to explain the way you play the game...well, you did not do your job as a writer.

That said, I do like to through an intro in to my books. Usually just a paragraph or to telling the reader the story behind the book.

Bill

Quote from: flyingmiceBTW, this thread's general opinion is exactly the reverse of the one on tBP.

Who'd a thunk it?

-clash

 I LIKE Designer's Notes in general - as long as they don't replace actual rules or become the equivalent to them.

 One of the things I liked about SJG's Pyramid magazine both the real and virtual versions was the Author's Notes or Designer's notes artcles. Often times, these articles contain stuff that had to be cut from a book because they only had so much space and a deadline. Irts nice to know why an author did things the way that they did - especially with adapted or converted settings like TRAVELLER and BANESTORM or even DEADLANDS.

Personally, I also prefer if the Designer's Notes are mostly all together on 1 or 2 pages instead of interrupting the text of the main book like an annoying set of commercials or PBS pledge break. (say maybe in the back of a book right before the index.)

- Ed C.

I used to buy books to read, as well as to play.

Back then I liked designer's notes, they gave insight into the game and made for a better read.

Then I saw sense, now I buy to play, I don't play everything I buy because I make mistakes but I buy to play.  Designers notes are no longer useful to me as I need to rely on the rules working without a gloss at the front to tell me how they're supposed to work.

I suspect the TBP/here divide comes down to that.  TBP is full of posters who don't actually play but just read and collect, here not so much.

Quote from: BalbinusI used to buy books to read, as well as to play.

Back then I liked designer's notes, they gave insight into the game and made for a better read.

Then I saw sense, now I buy to play, I don't play everything I buy because I make mistakes but I buy to play.  Designers notes are no longer useful to me as I need to rely on the rules working without a gloss at the front to tell me how they're supposed to work.

I suspect the TBP/here divide comes down to that.  TBP is full of posters who don't actually play but just read and collect, here not so much.

Hi Balbinus!

That thought occured to me as well, though it's obviously a tendancy rather than a rule - Ed obviously buys to play - even if he only buys GURPS - and he prefers Designers Notes as traditionally given.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceHi Balbinus!

That thought occured to me as well, though it's obviously a tendancy rather than a rule - Ed obviously buys to play - even if he only buys GURPS - and he prefers Designers Notes as traditionally given.

-clash

 Hey - I bought SAVAGE WORLDS : Explorer Edition recently , so its not ALL GURPS all the time with me.
 I'm just obvious about my bias for GURPS.


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarHey - I bought SAVAGE WORLDS : Explorer Edition recently , so its not ALL GURPS all the time with me.
 I'm just obvious about my bias for GURPS.


- Ed C.

I keed, Ed!

-clash

This subject caught me on the way out... it's a dear one to me so I couldn't pass it by.

I love designer notes. Even wrote an article on them (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/elements14jan03.html).

For the record, the games I play most are often the ones with the best designer notes. I like the tradition style, included at the back like in the old SPI days so that they don't get in the way of rule lookups (including page thumbing for the rules, something sidebars do get in the way of).

Understanding the author's mindset can make or break a game for me. For example it was useful for me to understand that SPI's Firefight was intended to highlight certain US Army tactical doctrines of the time and not be a full range simulation. This allowed me to engage the game on it's terms, which were a blast- and not reject it for things it specifically (and for good reason) excluded.

Quote from: gleichmanThis subject caught me on the way out... it's a dear one to me so I couldn't pass it by.

I love designer notes. Even wrote an article on them (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/elements14jan03.html).

For the record, the games I play most are often the ones with the best designer notes. I like the tradition style, included at the back like in the old SPI days so that they don't get in the way of rule lookups (including page thumbing for the rules, something sidebars do get in the way of).

Understanding the author's mindset can make or break a game for me. For example it was useful for me to understand that SPI's Firefight was intended to highlight certain US Army tactical doctrines of the time and not be a full range simulation. This allowed me to engage the game on it's terms, which were a blast- and not reject it for things it specifically (and for good reason) excluded.

That would take like a sentence or two in the intro, like my In Harm's Way intro where I point out that the game is meant to emulate historical fiction rather than simulate historical reality. That's an important distiction and necessary to say, but why hide it in the back of the book if it's so important, and why does it need a full chapter?

-clash

Quote from: BalbinusI used to buy books to read, as well as to play.

Back then I liked designer's notes, they gave insight into the game and made for a better read.

Then I saw sense, now I buy to play, I don't play everything I buy because I make mistakes but I buy to play.  Designers notes are no longer useful to me as I need to rely on the rules working without a gloss at the front to tell me how they're supposed to work.

I suspect the TBP/here divide comes down to that.  TBP is full of posters who don't actually play but just read and collect, here not so much.

I totally buy to play...even if I'm not playing now.

I still like knowing where an author's coming from.

Quote from: flyingmiceThat would take like a sentence or two in the intro, like my In Harm's Way intro where I point out that the game is meant to emulate historical fiction rather than simulate historical reality. That's an important distiction and necessary to say, but why hide it in the back of the book if it's so important, and why does it need a full chapter?

-clash

Because historical fiction covers a lot of ground, and some of it in conflict with others. The SPI game actually included the doctrines it was simulating in it'd designer notes for example and noted some of the larger issues it excluded.

It also oddly enough invokes trust in the player. Here's an example:

SPI's Airwar (often rated as the most complex wargame ever, and one of my all time favorites) noted in their designer notes that the wing bank for a certain maneuver was reversed from reality and why (and noted that in the end the effect was the same). This instilled trust in their knowledge and resulted in me assuming that any other 'errors' of design were likely along this same line.

Meanwhile the authors of At the Mountains of Maddness put their adventure forward as a reasonably good set of rules about what it was like to travel in the extreme cold of their setting. But they completely botched how firearms operate in said settings (and firearms- and how they operated were a major element of their plot). I noticed that mistake, and without designer notes that indicated that it was on purpose (it wasn't, but that's another issue and one to the author's credit)- I doubted everything else there about cold weather travel. If I wanted to run the module in that fashion, I'd have to redo all their research if I wanted to meet my goal.


Back to your game- what fiction, what elements? How do you view this in relation to the real history of the time? Why did you pick the die mechanic you did and what am I the user gaining from it?

All that is quite important to me.

Quote from: flyingmiceLooks like I put my foot into it over on tBP on the Designers Notes thread. I really dislike them and think they are a total waste of time. On request, I wrote some for one of my games and gagged the whole time. Designers can post in fora, write a blog - heck, they can write a pdf to show the world their utter genius! They can even sell it if anyone wants to buy it! Why stuff it into a game? IMO, if it's rules, it doesn't belong in designer's notes - it belongs with the rules. If it's setting, it belongs with the setting info. Anything else is sheer puffery and not worth using as anything but kindling.

Do you guys like these things?

How does it help you play the game?

If it doesn't help you play the game, what use is it?

-clash

Self praise I'm not fond of, but it's good for me (as a compulsive houseruler) to get a good look under the hood before I gut the thing. If I know why and how a thing is the way it is, I'll be better able to decide whether to keep it and if not, what to replace it with.

EDIT: What kills me is GM advice. I'm on my first game and figuring what to say... there's just no right answer!

EDIT EDIT: I should also add that I like what DnD does. Here and there is a note explaining why this or why that. Ideally this comes with an alternate solution.