Quote from: Consonant DudeWell, yes and no. The original, rough game was put in a zine (Daedalus) at the time. 2006 was the launch of the officially published, refined Lacuna.

Again, that's not correct. Sorensen had been selling spiral bound copies of Lacuna as a stand-alone game (independent of the Fall 2003 Daedalus e-zine release) since 2004, notably at GenCon SoCal and through the Memento-Mori site alongside octaNe.

The "prank" wasn't about the game's release, it was about getting more people to notice the fact that it existed. To wit, your own erroneous version of events says that you weren't very aware of Lacuna between the 2003 issue of Daedelus or its 2006 promotional campaign.

The most complete thread (with links to other threads) on RPG.net has this to say:

Quote from: unheilig;3797243i haven't seen or read Enemy Gods.

i don't really think John Wick stole anything.

that would really be a matter of conjecture, at best.

here's what pissed me off.

1. John Wick agrees to and begins to edit Primeval. (and very well, i might add.)


2. John Wick disappears. later, we would find out that it was to work for a video game company, but we wouldn't hear that directly from him. ever. no answers, to emails, nothin.

3. John Wick comes back from the dead, with his OWN mythic hero game.

You can't really "steal" a game unless you copy the system word for word. which i know isn't the case. But i think, if you reverse the situation and see it from where i sit, you'd be a little bitter too.

EDIT: based on the fact that i'm still being vague.

JOHN WICK DID NOT STEAL PRIMEVAL.

he left us high and dry, with no hint or preview, and no explanation. years later, he has his own mythic hero game.


its not like being robbed, its like being dumped, and then you find out your girlfriend is dating a new guy THAT LOOKS JUST LIKE YOU!

so please, no more calling John a thief. He is still the best Primeval player ever witnessed.

But Unheilig overall just comes up as bitter. I remember Primeval (unfortunately, unlike Wyrd, I don't have any documentation left) enough to know it is completely different from Enemy Gods (which I have read ).

Are there similarities? Yeah, there are mythic themes. We get hundreds of fantasy-themed games and occult stuff. Sooner or later, people are going to write about myths. Mythic themes are something that has always turned on Wick. But the specific themes, fluff and mechanics are completely different.

In the end, Unheilig is a douchebag who was very popular at RPG.net. He predates but represents everything that is bad about tangency, including blind worship by wankers. Once he said "That fucker released Enemy Gods" people ran with the story and embellished it with notions of theft and he conveniently decided to stay silent from that point, knowing the rumors would spread out of control.

It's funny that about once a year, Unheilig pops up on RPG.net saying "Primeval is back on track!". Only, it never is because the guy can't deliver. I think he was expecting Wick to hold him by the hand. Last occurance of "Primeval is going to happen" dates from mid-2005, I think. But as usual, Unheilig probably had a convenient "computer crash" or similar excuse to explain why it's not happening.

Now, I don't know the exact nature of Wick's involvement. From everything I heard, it does look like the two got fed up with each others. I can agree that John Wick is not always the nicest guy. But he's not a thief and he gets a lot of undeserved flak.  

Thread and other links:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=139920&highlight=primeval

Unfortunately, none of that will lead us to a copy of Primeval. Which would settle the issue and show that Unheilig is nothing but an envious asshole.

Quote from: Consonant DudeThe most complete thread (with links to other threads) on RPG.net has this to say:

That's the retraction. It is completely contrary to the Phantomzone thread wherein Unheilig very specifically said that Jon Wick "stole" PRIMEVAL. He may have been exagerrating things, or he may have been outright lying, but he said it all the same (and vehemently insisted that it was true).

The issue that comes up, obviously, it which vehement truth do you believe? I don't think there's much evidence for either, past Uneheilig's word. He was either lying then or he's lying now. And of course, John Wick is about as well-acquainted with truth as Unheilig.

The issue isn't one of proof. It's one of belief.  

Neither party carries much credibility with me, but the fact that Unheilig still has people who were party to the debacle standing in his corner leads me to believe that his initial posts on the subject were likely a more accurate representation of what happened than the sanitized public retraction is.

Quote from: jdrakehNeither party carries much credibility with me, but the fact that Unheilig still has people who were party to the debacle standing in his corner leads me to believe that his initial posts on the subject were likely a more accurate representation of what happened than the sanitized public retraction is.

I can't see it. I know you review a lot of games and are used to examining game material. I think if you had seen both games, you would come to a different conclusion. (or maybe you did see both games and disagree, in that case apologies in advance).

I was shocked when I discovered today that Enemy Gods was supposedly the game influenced by Primeval. There's nothing there that reminds me (or ever did remind me) of Primeval (but I wish I had notes... I've lost a lot of old electronic material).

Luckily, I still have Wyrd and can say without a doubt it has zero similarities to Enemy Gods (not saying you're claiming this, just saying this publically because that rumor also flies from time to time).

I don't expect you to take my word regarding Primeval. All I can say is that I have no stakes in this and am not particularly a fan of either party in this dispute. But I don't see theft there.

Right.  So, perhaps the one thing that we can take away from this discussion is that, had the bastard child of unheilig and John Wick -- Primeval -- come to fruition, it would have been the product of two total dicks, making its purchase and play that much more of a conflicted decision.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaRight.  So, perhaps the one thing that we can take away from this discussion is that, had the bastard child of unheilig and John Wick -- Primeval -- come to fruition, it would have been the product of two total dicks, making its purchase and play that much more of a conflicted decision.

!i!

I dunno if I completely agree with this but it was nonetheless funny enough to make me choke on my pizza!

On related note, the "other" game that has been mentioned in this thread, Wyrd... that one was by far the most promising, IMO. It was fairly ambitious, yet what was there was functional. Not cute mechanics for the sake of cuteness.

My problem with a lot of Forge games (not all) is that while ambitious, they're still fucking stupid or dysfunctional or plain not fun. Scott Knipe was on to something and it is unfortunate that he didn't complete his vision. He too, like Unheilig, pops up from time to time at the Forge or elsewhere but seems tired. It's a real pity.

But if that game ever comes out, I don't care if it is co-signed John Wick or Jack Chick... I'm getting it

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaRight.  So, perhaps the one thing that we can take away from this discussion is that, had the bastard child of unheilig and John Wick -- Primeval -- come to fruition, it would have been the product of two total dicks, making its purchase and play that much more of a conflicted decision.

!i!

Well, for me, there were also a number of people involved in it who WEREN'T dicks, and were in fact pretty nifty people.  Like IronRa and JenY.  People I liked.

and hell, I would've had a hard time not buying it just for Ra's art.  The old man has some serious skills with a pencil.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaRight.  So, perhaps the one thing that we can take away from this discussion is that, had the bastard child of unheilig and John Wick -- Primeval -- come to fruition, it would have been the product of two total dicks, making its purchase and play that much more of a conflicted decision.

The semen of two men cannot produce a child, only a homunculus!

Quote from: J ArcaneWell, for me, there were also a number of people involved in it who WEREN'T dicks, and were in fact pretty nifty people.

Yeah, which kind of stuck in my craw when I saw it happening at the time.

!i!

Quote from: J ArcaneWell, for me, there were also a number of people involved in it who WEREN'T dicks, and were in fact pretty nifty people.  Like IronRa and JenY.  People I liked.

Never heard of 'em. Must be tangency posters.

Which explains a lot to me. A bunch of people who enjoy updating strangers on their inconsequetial lives, what kind of shoes they bought, what happened at the office and crap like that.

Unheilig himself drifted from RPGopen to the cesspool. You're not going to release a relevant game doing that.

He could have enrolled people actually interested in roleplaying games.

Umm, yeah.  

Speaking as someone who knew Jen and Patrick Y. IRL, I can say that I feel you are entirely off base with your criticisms.

Quote from: J ArcaneUmm, yeah.  

Speaking as someone who knew Jen and Patrick Y. IRL, I can say that I feel you are entirely off base with your criticisms.

They weren't spending their time in tangency?

Simply typing jennifery in rpg.net results in this

http://forum.rpg.net/searchbt.php?s=&search=jennifery

A lot of ramblings about the kind of day she's having, boob jokes and other lame crap. Yeah, that gal is going to be a real help designing a game, for sure. I'm not even going to look for the Ra dude as I suspect it'll be just as weird and potentially disturbing.

Unheilig was like a guy enrolling Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux for a Basketball challenge. Ain't going to work.

I didn't say they didn't.  

But I would say that trying to draw conclusions regarding their gaming is absurd, and would advise you not trying to speak about that which you know nothing about.

I'd also say that dragging you blind hatred of a portion of a website onto an entirely different website is more than a tad odd.

Quote from: J ArcaneI'd also say that dragging you blind hatred

I prefr to call it "informed dislike"

Quote from: Consonant DudeI can't see it. I know you review a lot of games and are used to examining game material. I think if you had seen both games, you would come to a different conclusion. (or maybe you did see both games and disagree, in that case apologies in advance).

For the record, I've only seen a playtest copy of Primeval (and somebody broke their NDA to sneak it to me). I'm not damning Enemy Gods as a blatant venbatim rip-off, though I do see some conceptual similarities.

QuoteLuckily, I still have Wyrd and can say without a doubt it has zero similarities to Enemy Gods (not saying you're claiming this, just saying this publically because that rumor also flies from time to time).

Agreed 100% Wyrd is nothing like any John Wick game I've ever read (it lived up to the ad copy for starters). I think it is shame that it never saw wide publication. I have (or, rather, had) a PDF master of the GenCon limited ashcan edition and thought it was a very promising game.

QuoteAll I can say is that I have no stakes in this and am not particularly a fan of either party in this dispute. But I don't see theft there.

I'm undecided, ultimately -- I do see professional misconduct that could be construed as theft (and has been). All I'm saying is that I'm not comfortable claiming that Unheilig or Wick is somehow morally superior to the other, because they both clearly spend a lot of time in the mud.

Frankly, at this point in time, I'd be hard pressed to buy a game published by either of them.