So Crapdaddy is John Wick right? I mean c'mon...

Quote from: JimBobOzHah! Of course text does not carry tone, but even here we can spot that much sarcasm in one line

I think I'm going to like it here.

:-)

Quote from: crapdaddy::First post by::
-Sheldon Morley

Didn't I say that, too?

Quote from: Serious PaulSo Crapdaddy is John Wick right? I mean c'mon...

Nope.  My name is Sheldon Robert Morley.  John is the drummer in my band.  You can see pictures of both of us together on the band's Myspace

http://www.myspace.com/theawfullot

I'm the fat guy in the green Cthulhu t'shirt.

:-)

Quote from: JimBobOzBut what did Warthur ever do? He may be a Forger, but he's not offensive.

Finger-wagging moralizing as if he were Ward Cleaver and Wick was The Beav? I don't know, that sort of thing gets in my craw.

QuoteBut even if it were, I'd point out that this is not a Somewhat Well-Known Game Designer's forum, it's a general discussion forum for rpgs. So if some game designers get scared or pissed off, who cares?

Well, I care (a little). It would be nice to have a general rpg discussion site of a manageable size that isn't stiflingly PC. Instead this place is more like a runt-sized negative of an unholy hybrid of the Forge and RPG.net. Obviously my expectations are totally fucked.

As far as Crane or Wick having anything to say about rpgs....the first these guys hear of this place is when someone lets them know that there's an insane dogpile on their good names going on at therpgsite. They come on to explain their side and are met with a mudslide of vitriol by posters with less interest in holding an actual discussion than a bunch of idiot villagers with pitchforks and torches.

QuoteIf this thread had been at rpg.net, half a dozen of us would have been suspended, and Wick could stay happy and protected. But what did Wick do to rpg.net? Lied to them, and called them suckers and fools. So, you know, maybe his contributions to forums aren't really something to be hoped for.

What does some shit that happened at RPG.net a year ago have to do with this forum? Anyway, if your bullshit meter wasn't twinging from the absurd rants of the perpetrators of the Great RPG.net Hoax of Ought-six...you might be less than intellectually astute. I suppose holding a grudge over such a thing is simply a process that some people use for learning? "They won't fool ME again!"

QuoteWhat else should a forum thread accomplish?

Not the same things as a witch-hunt?

Quote from: JimBobOzWick and Sorensen are cocksmocks because they have engaged in fraud, and because they often express contempt for gamers. Sorensen especially is famous for it. Still, that wouldn't stop me buying a game of theirs if I thought it was a good one. I'm still waiting for that.

I enoyed Lacuna.

You know, I've seen several mentions on how Sorensen supposedly has all this contempt for gamers.  Wouldn't happen to have an example you'd post/link to, would you, O Great Linkmeister?  I can't seem to find anything on it.

Quote from: JimBobOzFraud you will usually find defined as something like, "something intended to deceive; deliberate trickery intended to gain an advantage". They intended to deceive, and they intended this deception to gain them advantage - publicity.

Ok. But under that definition, I think a lot of good marketing ploys are frauds, since many of them are somewhat deceitful.  

I guess it's a moral question, as you said. And although I consider honesty important, I wasn't overly shocked by this.

Personally, as long as the prank is about getting publicity, I'm not too worried.

Quote from: TimFinger-wagging moralizing as if he were Ward Cleaver and Wick was The Beav? I don't know, that sort of thing gets in my craw.

Strange, I don't see that in Warthur's posts. But there you go, perception's a funny thing, elephant in the dark and all that.

Quote from: TimWell, I care (a little). It would be nice to have a general rpg discussion site of a manageable size that isn't stiflingly PC. Instead this place is more like a runt-sized negative of an unholy hybrid of the Forge and RPG.net.

Again, I don't perceive things that way. I would also say, as I said in my letter to rpg.net when they were discussing my banning, that the users determine the tone and style of a site. Not the moderators, the users. You've said how you sat and watched the place for a month or so - simply sitting and watching isn't going to influence the site at all. If you want a site to be a certain way, you have to post to it.

So if you want to talk about (for example) Exalted, well then go and start a thread on it. Don't sit around for a month and then complain no-one else started one. That's like in high school social dances, where all the boys sit on one side and all the girls on the other, and nobody dances, and afterwards everyone says the thing was boring.

If you want therpgsite to have the style you like, post to it, make it happen.

Quote from: TimAs far as Crane or Wick having anything to say about rpgs....the first these guys hear of this place is when someone lets them know that there's an insane dogpile on their good names going on at therpgsite.

Then they've not been very observant. therpgsite has been mentioned many times at rpg.net, The Forge, and story-games; Crane and Wick post to and read those forums.

Quote from: TimThey come on to explain their side and are met with a mudslide of vitriol by posters with less interest in holding an actual discussion than a bunch of idiot villagers with pitchforks and torches.

In neither case did they really "explain their side." Crane simply said he was entitled to the things he was demanding, and Wick turned abstract and gave us a Zen parable. Assertions, abstractions and parables aren't "explain[ing] their side," they're just assertions, abstractions and parables.

Now, no-one's under any kind of moral obligation to explain themselves to this or any other forum. But if they do choose to come in and talk, well then they'll have people respond to what they say. They're responsible for their words.

Quote from: TimWhat does some shit that happened at RPG.net a year ago have to do with this forum?

Not much. But it has something to do with this thread - which was originally about, does the behaviour and likability of this or that game designer affect whether you buy their stuff?

Naturally, the behaviour of game designers was then discussed. Thus, there gets discussed some shit that happened at rpg.net a year ago.

Which, returning to the main topic of the thread, as I said wouldn't affect my decision whether or not to buy stuff of Wick and Sorensen. Like I said, if Adolf Eichmann had written a good rpg, I'd buy and play it. If Albert Schweitzer wrote a crap rpg, I would not buy or play it. So Wick can be a cocksmock, and Sorensen continue to hate gamers, I don't care.

Quote from: TimAnyway, if your bullshit meter wasn't twinging from the absurd rants of the perpetrators of the Great RPG.net Hoax of Ought-six...you might be less than intellectually astute.

And if you play the three shells game with some guy on the street and expect to make money from it, you might be less than intellectually astute. Yet millions of people do, and it's considered fraud. Usually, that you deceive people who you think are foolish and like to believe your bullshit makes you more shitty, not less. It's actually nastier to take candy from a baby than from an adult.

Quote from: TimNot the same things as a witch-hunt?

To be clear: a "witch-hunt" is a hunt for someone who in fact has not done anything wrong. This wouldn't apply to someone who actually has done something wrong - like lying in the hopes of financial gain.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstYou know, I've seen several mentions on how Sorensen supposedly has all this contempt for gamers.

He doesn't.

He's just prone to impudence, always was. This compounded with the fact he bought this reputation he has undeservedly gained as a brilliant designer has made him irritating to some.

He was pretty intensely linked to Ron Edwards for a while too, and fairly vocal in certain debates.

Unless releasing numerous shitty games and systems on a bunch of dimwitted fanboys at the speed of light qualifies as contempt, I don't think these claims are true.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstYou know, I've seen several mentions on how Sorensen supposedly has all this contempt for gamers.  Wouldn't happen to have an example you'd post/link to, would you, O Great Linkmeister?  I can't seem to find anything on it.

Try this link on for size.  Scroll down to the last entry on the page -- April 5th.  He doesn't owe anyone anything.

!i!

therpgsite

Quote from: Tima runt-sized negative of an unholy hybrid of the Forge and RPG.net.

see, i'd buy that t-shirt right there.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHe doesn't owe anyone anything.

That's not contempt. That's realism.

Quote from: Consonant DudeThat's not contempt. That's realism.

Six of one, half dozen of the other.

!i!

There's a local grocery store chain here.  My wife and I went in on a Sunday night to pick up a couple of things. The express line was ridiculous and there was only one other register open.  After finally getting through the line, I saw a manager walk by.  I politely asked him if he could rectify the situation, as it was like this every time I came in on Sunday night.  He was an ass.  First he got defensive, then he blamed it on corporate, ending with "there's nothing I can do about it."

Now he might have been accurate - there might have been nothing he could do as corporate controlled things that caused the situation.  But his entire handling of the situation was - horrible. His attitude, language, demeanor, etc were all bad customer service.

That was ten years ago.  I have not step foot in the grocery store chain since then. So you can guess my answer (in addition to my reponse to Luke in the "Don't be a Dick at a con" thread).

One of the truly free ways to voice your displeasure with someone in the marketplace - not just their products but the corporate entity as a whole - is by voting with your hard-earned cash.

Quote from: JimBobOzAgain, I don't perceive things that way. I would also say, as I said in my letter to rpg.net when they were discussing my banning, that the users determine the tone and style of a site. Not the moderators, the users. You've said how you sat and watched the place for a month or so - simply sitting and watching isn't going to influence the site at all. If you want a site to be a certain way, you have to post to it.

Alrighty then.....I run a small business. I don't have the time or the inclination to start a second career changing the mindset of this place. I think if you look at my 11 posts before this thread you'll see that my money is where my mouth is: I've talked about things I'm knowledgeable of and interested in. Your 'Just Do it!' philosophy simply doesn't have any meaning on the scale at which I'm capable of posting.

I'd LIKE to find the place I described: it ain't the holy grail, though.

QuoteSo if you want to talk about (for example) Exalted, well then go and start a thread on it.

Errrrr...yeah. I'm just freaking DYING to talk about Exalted.

QuoteThen they've not been very observant. therpgsite has been mentioned many times at rpg.net, The Forge, and story-games; Crane and Wick post to and read those forums.

Ok, yeah, you're right. And 90% of the time it's mentioned as a crazy place. Which it often is.

QuoteIn neither case did they really "explain their side." Crane simply said he was entitled to the things he was demanding, and Wick turned abstract and gave us a Zen parable. Assertions, abstractions and parables aren't "explain[ing] their side," they're just assertions, abstractions and parables.

I'm not about to go look up the 'Crane is an Elitist Asshole' thread in order to footnote a post to an RPG bulletin board, but did he not explain something along the lines of this: some cons make life easier for special guests and professionals attending said cons. I want more cons to be like that?

Seems like Wick explained the 'stolen game' thing pretty well, to me. Seems like he was trying to bury the hatchet on the hoax. I'm sure, like me, he doesn't think he did anything wrong, so what else SHOULD he be obliged to do?

QuoteIt's actually nastier to take candy from a baby than from an adult.

Did they not offer refunds to anyone who had bought the game because they were deceived? Should we assume that the people who frequent rpg.net are all morons? (ok, don't answer that one)

QuoteTo be clear: a "witch-hunt" is a hunt for someone who in fact has not done anything wrong. This wouldn't apply to someone who actually has done something wrong - like lying in the hopes of financial gain.

It was marketing, dude. Pure and simple. I thought it was pretty brilliant marketing, at that. You see it as theft. We're not going to get anywhere, with this particular subject.

Tim