Quote from: Consonant DudeYou said it yourself. Publicity. Or we could say attention, or whatever.

Then later you call that fraud, only it really isn't. There's a product that you can buy or not. Nobody pulls a gun to your head.

That there was a gun held to someone's head to buy the thing is not part of legal or moral definitions of fraud in most places.

"So, you wanted money for a CD, and were short of cash, and told your buddy you needed the money for medicine?"
"Yes. But it's not fraud, because I didn't hold a gun to his head to make him give me the money!"

As for the rest: that's why I said, "in spirit, if not in law."

If you present a product or service as being better than it is, so as to get a higher price for it than you could if you were honest, then legally that's fraud.

If you make something up about your company or yourself so as to raise publicity, which publicity you reasonably expect to help sales later on, that is probably not going to be held to be fraudulent in law, but it's certainly fradulent in morals and ethics.

For example, we have here in Melbourne a store which has had a "Closing Down Sale!" for two years. The Australian Competition and Consumer's Commission has fined them a big whack of money for unfair trade practices - but they've not been charged with fraud.

That's because fraud can often be a quite difficult charge to make stick in court. There are all sorts of subtleties to it. Nonetheless, some things are clear morally which are not clear legally. And morally, this was fraud. It was deception for the purposes of obtaining money.

They made up and promoted a lie about the state of Sorensen's company. They did this with the intention of giving him publicity, and the publicity was for something he was going to sell. They lied to get money. Morally, if not legally, that's fraudulent.

Guns to the head having nothing to do with fraud; that's a different thing entirely.

Quote from: WarthurWas the hoax perpetrated with a subtext - or outright statement - that "if you don't buy Jared's new game, he/his company will be sunk!" or "This is the last game Jared's company will release before it goes under!"?

And were prospective customers informed that this was not true before they bought the product?

Sorensen had produced a game which was about conspiracies and lies, called Lacuna, its product page is here. He then decided to do a second part or edition. To promote it, he formed a conspiracy with Wick and a few others, and a lie - that his company was being eaten up because someone else had stolen his copyrights, in some unspecified way. It was intended that this lie would be an example of conspiracies and lies which could affect the minds of many, as happened a lot within the Lacuna rpg itself. A "meme" as some people like to call it.

Sorensen put the news on his blog, and it spread to rpg.net, and from there to everywhere else. People quickly began talking about establishing a legal fund to help him, and some people went and bought some of Sorensen's rpgs online to help him out. Wick appeared in the threads relating to it to promote the idea that Sorensen's company was collapsing. In fact, it's one of my Big List of Links, where Wick says that game designers are cokeheads.

Quote from: John WickRe: Memento Mori RIP?

While Jared is legally bound to not speak on the subject, there are others who are tangentially involved who are not so legally bound.

Like myself. And everbody here knows I've always been the perfect model for tolerance and restraint. Especially on the internet.

First, a tangential rant.

We have to do away with all the people on this thread (and yes, I'm looking at you, Ian Young) who pretend to know a single thing about intellectual property law.

Here's the news. You don't.

You can't trademark plots, you can't copyright characters, You can't copyright "ideas." TSR tried that with roleplaying games and it didn't work. If you want to know how copyrights, trademarks, and intellectual properties really work, go to law school for three years and get back to me. I don't pretend to be a lawyer and I don't even play one on the internet. I've got a real lawyer who figures this shit out for me.

Anyway, back from tangential rant to mainline.

What Jared is going through isn't pretty. It's a lesson in what not to do when you run a game company. And yes, this rant is partly directed at Jared because I'm pissed at him for not protecting himself better. Like I said, I have a lawyer. He tells me how to protect myself against a litigious and petty culture like the one we have here in the United States. If Jared had a lawyer, if he kept his skirts clean, if he kept an eye out for himself, this wouldn't have happened. But Jared is Jared and I love him for who he is, despite the fact that he's ignored my sage and worthy advice for years about protecting himself.

The lesson kiddies? FUCKING PROTECT YOURSELF!!!

I know this because Shinsei knows this.

Maybe Jared will listen this time. Maybe he'll learn. Maybe he won't. But one thing this life has definately taught me is this: you can love someone and be angry at them at the same time. Anger doesn't trump love. If your anger trumps your love, it wasn't love in the first place.

I know this because Berek knows this.

The details of Jared's legal problems stem from the fact that this industry is filled with back-stabbing pricks who will cut your throat for a nickel. You know why? Because most of the asshats in this industry--the ones who really run the show--are cokeheads. That's right: cokeheads.

Wanna know why game companies go out of business? Not because they're run by gamers and not businessmen (although that's partly true), and it's not because gamers are notoriously cheap bastards (although that's also partly true), but because most game companies are run by cocaine addicts who need their next fix.

I know this. Don't ask me how I know this. Slander is a bad, bad wrap.

These paranoid junkies read treacherous words and see treacherous fiends wherever they go. And while they don't have a single creative bone in their bodies, they do one thing that Jared did not do.

They protect themselves.

And this is why Jared is going through what he's going through now. Because they protect themselves with the law and punk rock Jared didn't.

I'm gonna get sued for this. I don't give even a single little shit. Not even a poo squirt. Fuck 'em. They hurt someone I love dearly. And when my lawyer tells me I can say something more substantial, he'll let me. (Although, he's very worried about the whole cocaine thing.)

The game industry--your game industry--is loaded with losers who want nothing more than your buck.

And don't tell me--oh no, you miserable fucks--don't tell me you won't run out on the very first day and shell out $40 for D and fucking D fourth.

You will. I know you will. I said you'd do it before and I was right. You'll do it again.

You know why? Because you're all suckers. And you don't protect yourselves.

You can read the rpg.net thread in full here.

You can have a look at it, and the links within it, and judge for yourself the intentions of Wick and Sorensen. My reading of it is that they conceived the stunt, knowing that people would feel sorry for Sorensen, but not expecting they'd throw cash or sympathy sales his way (I don't think it occurred to them), but when they said, "PUNKD!" the resulting publicity would generate lots of sales.

It'd be like, say, Madonna faking her own death for week, then releasing an album called, "Death is not forever." In spirit, if not in law, that's fraud. And it'd piss off a lot of fans.

I have a feeling that with his parable, John was trying to say, in his own particular way, that he was a different person then than he is now.

It could have been wiser, if I read that correctly, to have just come out and say it. But I suppose that he has his own way of doing things.  A pity that he decided to take his ball and go home, I would have liked to see him stay.

RPGPundit

As a personal friend of John's, I feel compelled to chime in on the issue.  While I have had my online disagreements with him in the past, I have always had the benefit of being able to just phone him at home and chat it out.  The misunderstanding is usually resolved within two minutes and we're then able to get on with our lives.

I realize that many of you don't have the luxury of being able to see what a sweet guy he actually is.  Online forums are notorious for bringing out the worst in people and John is no exception to that.  I've seen him irrationally strike out at people.  I've seen him lash out for no apparent reason.  I've seen everything John has to offer and it hasn't been any worse than what I've seen other people do in forums.  He certainly wasn't calling any of YOU names today, despite some serious provocation.  

I would ask you to look at today's events through his eyes.  Imagine you're strolling through a forum and you see some semi-hateful things written about you.  Understandably you attempt to sort it out.  At first you're hurt, then you try to approach it more rationally.  Nothing works.  Finally, you decide to bail out because people have simply resorted to CALLING YOU NAMES.  Does John deserve to be called out on his behavior?  Yes.  Does he deserve to be called a "cocksmock"?  No.  No one does.

I think the most important thing you're all forgetting about John is that he's just a gamer.  He's a pedantic, socially awkward, hyperintelligent gamer ~just like the rest of you~.  Just like me.  HE'S NO DIFFERENT.  The only difference between us and him is that he was lucky enough to get a job in the industry.

But was it even luck?  I'm not so sure anymore.  If he was just an anonymous name on a forum then he could go around calling people cocksmocks all day long without fear of reprisal.  

And whatever else you can say about John, he's no pussy.  He doesn't hide behind internet handles.  He came on here using his own name, despite the fact that some pretty hateful things had already been said about him.  He did his best to defended himself and when he realized that he wasn't getting anywhere, he just left.  That doesn't mean he's a pussy, it makes him human.

I understand why you guys might be upset with him.  I may even agree with a thing or two you're saying.  All I ask is that you understand that it's hard to see so much hate leveled in your direction without striking back.  John does his best, but he sometimes fails.

-Sheldon Morley

Check out our band.  http://www.myspace.com/theawfullot  I'm the big dopey looking guy in the green shirt on the slideshow.

Quote from: crapdaddyI realize that many of you don't have the luxury of being able to see what a sweet guy he actually is.  Online forums are notorious for bringing out the worst in people and John is no exception to that.

I'm sure that's true. It's also irrelevant. We only know him online, and he's responsible for his words he types. Not us. He has no-one to blame but himself.

Whether he's a lovely guy in person is irrelevant. I'm sure that the hundreds of people in the world who generate the billions of spam email messages clogging our inboxes are also lovely in person, have spouses and children who love them very much, and are glad of the income spamming provides, to build themselves a nice home together. That does not stop us from cursing them as we delete yet another spam email, though. Whose fault is it that they spam? Not ours - theirs.

Likewise, if Wick posts silly things and is called on it, he has no-one to blame but himself. We're each of us responsible for what we post.

Quote from: crapdaddyI would ask you to look at today's events through his eyes.  Imagine you're strolling through a forum and you see some semi-hateful things written about you.  Understandably you attempt to sort it out.  At first you're hurt, then you try to approach it more rationally.  Nothing works.  Finally, you decide to bail out because people have simply resorted to CALLING YOU NAMES.  Does John deserve to be called out on his behavior?  Yes.  Does he deserve to be called a "cocksmock"?  No.  No one does.

A person deserves abusive words when they do or say something which they know to be absurd, offensive, or a lie. They deserve more abuse when their response to be called on that absurdity, offence, or deceit, is to respond with abstractions, evasions, and storming off in a huff.

Quote from: crapdaddyHe did his best to defended himself and when he realized that he wasn't getting anywhere, he just left.  That doesn't mean he's a pussy, it makes him human.

He's a wuss because his defence was not a straight-up defence, or admission, but an evasion. "Here's a Zen story... oh and in communication, we find that..."

Quote from: crapdaddyAll I ask is that you understand that it's hard to see so much hate leveled in your direction without striking back.

I wouldn't criticise him for "striking back". If he responded with abuse, and nothing but, well that's another evasion of the real issues. If he responded with abuse, and discussion, then I'd ignore the abuse and follow the discussion. But he responded with evasion. That's wussy.

If he doesn't want to be called a cocksmock then he should stop acting like one. You know, like by helping his buddy in an attempt at fraud, and then running away crying when he gets called on it.

This may amaze the Wickhead, and you, but when you lie to people, they get upset and call you names.

Quote from: JimBobOzGuns to the head having nothing to do with fraud; that's a different thing entirely.

Ok, but you did skip part of my argument when you quoted me.

Was the product defective in some way? Did Sorensen con people into buying something that isn't what it appears?

The lie/prank/deception put his company under the roleplaying spotlight. But what about sales of the actual product? Did he promise something to people who were going to buy that he didn't deliver?

We keep going in circles. I understand completely that he misled people. We can call it a lie or anything you want if you like. But I want to know how it could be a fraud. Barring failure to provide the product you claim you are providing, I don't see it.

Quote from: crapdaddyI think the most important thing you're all forgetting about John is that he's just a gamer.  He's a pedantic, socially awkward, hyperintelligent gamer ~just like the rest of you~.  Just like me.  HE'S NO DIFFERENT.  

Bolding mine. Eh, no. Maybe this generalization works for you and your experience with other gamers, but not for me or the gamers I know. As for the rest of your post, cool, you're a loyal friend, but I've seen John post before. When he wants to be understood and civil, he can be. Sure, threads like these bring out the worst in folks, maybe he should learn to avoid them, I mean, he sure has a lot of experience to draw from, when it comes to dealing with folks, who have an issue with him, right? Just let it be.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: RPGPunditA pity that he decided to take his ball and go home, I would have liked to see him stay.

RPGPundit

Oh well, you've still got the likes of Warthur, the skipping record-like blather of JimBobOz, and Dominus Nox to make this THE rpg site.

After spending a month or so perusing this forum, after the novelty of watching several hundred comic book guys constantly spewing vitriol at one another has worn off, and after seeing several new forum members, who might have actually had something interesting to say, run off by said vitriol, I don't really see much of a reason to visit this place on a regular basis.

I mean, for fuck's sake, Luke Crane has done substantive and interesting things in the rpg industry, John Wick has done substantive and interesting (or so I hear) things in the rpg industry, and Paka....well he's just a straight-up stellar addition to ANY online community (and by the way, I don't think any of these three are swine by the accepted definition) and all three of them have been repelled by the same sort of pointless shit-flinging.

What on earth has been accomplished in this very thread?!?

Tim

Quote from: Consonant DudeOk, but you did skip part of my argument when you quoted me.

Was the product defective in some way? Did Sorensen con people into buying something that isn't what it appears?

No. That's why  say, for the fourth time, that legally it probably isn't "fraud". But morally, yes.

Fraud you will usually find defined as something like, "something intended to deceive; deliberate trickery intended to gain an advantage". They intended to deceive, and they intended this deception to gain them advantage - publicity.

Whether you think it's a serious or important fraud is of course another matter entirely, but it fits most definitions of the word "fraud" as it's used in everyday speech.

As I said, this is a different matter to whether it was legally fraud, about which I neither know nor care.

They used deliberate trickery to gain advantage. Fraud. That was their intent. Whether it was successful or not, whether they made money or not, doesn't matter. If a guy cheats at cards, he still gets tossed out of the casino, even when he lost.

Actually, I'm really sorry Wick tore off. But not as sorry as I could be, and here's why. This thread has a title, which Wick knew. He also, I assume, knew what was goin' on in this thread because someone probably told him.  As a salesman and as a professional, it would have looked much better for him to show up, and not flame out.

I mean, look. The dude shows up and makes vague noises about lawsuits as his first action. That's hostility right out the gate, and does nothing to quiet down his detractors while offering nothing to his supporters. That's problem number one. What would have been better? Well, he personally was called names. That's offensive. Apologizing for past rude behavior and reiterating that he'd plan to offer support while explaining how the theft was a misconception from the very beginning would have been much better.

Then, he says, "I'm an asshole." Well, that's great, but what does that help? It's a null arguement at best, counter-productive at worst. It says, "So what? I don't care if a substantial customer base is pissy about my 'tude." Are his sales really so great he can do that?

Finally, he offers some trite Zen shit. This is not relevant at all, and is pretty insulting. It's a poetic way of saying, "Go fuck yourself." Not smooth. And rather then saying, "You know what? You're right. I was trying to be fun and clever, but what I mean to say is ______." he jets. I'm still not sure what he intended to be the reaction to that.

All things considered, it looks to me, who doesn't care about Wick's misdeeds of the past a whit, that he showed up with both guns blazing looking to show peeps who's boss. It's just that all his ammo were duds. Rather then sucking up a loss, he decided the forum was too unfriendly and left. For a thread about customer relations, it was an amazingly poor performance. What did he expect to get from posting like that?

Quote from: JimBobOzThis may amaze the Wickhead, and you, but when you lie to people, they get upset and call you names.

It doesn't amaze me at all.  I told John to his face when that prank went down that it was a bad idea.   He didn't listen and went ahead with it anyway.  All my post was meant to do was ask you guys to have a little compassion for the guy.  If we were all to be judged by our online personas I would assume you to be a huge prick, which I'm sure is not true.

Just to show you how willing I am to take this to a more mature, personal arena, I'm going to post my telephone number.   If you're interested in continuing this discussion in a more personal way, feel free to give a call:

*edited*

Never let it be said that I'm a coward.

Or a disloyal friend.

Quote from: TimOh well, you've still got the likes of Warthur, the skipping record-like blather of JimBobOz, and Dominus Nox to make this THE rpg site.

Wow, now see guys? That's how you insult someone here - liken their posts to Dominus Nox's! Well done, Tim!

But what did Warthur ever do? He may be a Forger, but he's not offensive.

Quote from: TimI mean, for fuck's sake, Luke Crane has done substantive and interesting things in the rpg industry, John Wick has done substantive and interesting (or so I hear) things in the rpg industry, and Paka....well he's just a straight-up stellar addition to ANY online community (and by the way, I don't think any of these three are swine by the accepted definition) and all three of them have been repelled by the same sort of pointless shit-flinging.

I disagree that it's pointless, or shit-flinging. But even if it were, I'd point out that this is not a Somewhat Well-Known Game Designer's forum, it's a general discussion forum for rpgs. So if some game designers get scared or pissed off, who cares? A discussion forum is made by the people who post to it. Did Wick or Crane have anything to say here about rpgs? Nope. So, no loss.

We want people who talk rpgs. That's the purpose of the place. If Wick had been coming along here for months and posting even once a week, then we'd notice he was gone. But he only registered to defend himself by means of evasions. So in losing him, we've not actually lost anything. He wasn't here anyway.

Now you might say, "Well if the place were more friendly, then he'd post more often." But who knows? If this thread had been at rpg.net, half a dozen of us would have been suspended, and Wick could stay happy and protected. But what did Wick do to rpg.net? Lied to them, and called them suckers and fools. So, you know, maybe his contributions to forums aren't really something to be hoped for.

Quote from: TimWhat on earth has been accomplished in this very thread?!?

The same as in any thread, on any forum - a few people have learned something (learned that Wick has lied, or that JimBobOz is a "skipped record", or however you like to see things - but something was learned), and more people have been entertained. Some information, and some entertainment.

What else should a forum thread accomplish?

Good points.  You are bright and shing star of rational thought in the dark void that is the internet.

Quote from: crapdaddyAll my post was meant to do was ask you guys to have a little compassion for the guy.  If we were all to be judged by our online personas I would assume you to be a huge prick, which I'm sure is not true.

I have zero compassion for the guy. You reap what you sow. If you think I'm a huge prick, that's my fault for my posting style. I can enjoy that, put up with it, or try to make up for it - but I can't blame anyone but myself for it.

Quote from: crapdaddyJust to show you how willing I am to take this to a more mature, personal arena, I'm going to post my telephone number.   If you're interested in continuing this discussion in a more personal way, feel free to give a call:

In the first place, I'm here Down Under, so international calls cost a lot. Secondly, it's not an issue worth talking about over the phone - I mean, seriously, mate, this is just a bit of blather on an internet forum.

Lastly, I recommend editing your post to remove the phone number. I'm not the only person online who's experienced webstalkers, prank calls and the like. You may consider me a prick, but I'm not enough of a prick to wish that kind of harassment on a person. Edit your number out, mate. Offer it by PM or email if you like.

Quote from: crapdaddyGood points.  You are bright and shing star of rational thought in the dark void that is the internet.

Hah! Of course text does not carry tone, but even here we can spot that much sarcasm in one line