Quote from: AsenRG;947807Our flaws always push us just as much as our virtues. That's such a basic truth I don't think it's even worth debating whether it's possible:).

My point was that in HPL's case, he might have been a better writer if he was devoid of racism;).

And you may be correct, but it also may be true that he would have been no kind of writer without it. It, to me, is just impossible to separate the two to the point where I can say, and I am hardly suggesting there would be a similar case for VV, there has to be artistic merit there in the first place either way.

Quote from: AsenRG;947807My point was that in HPL's case, he might have been a better writer if he was devoid of racism;).

He might have been better or worse, but in either case, what he wrote would have been different.

I would suggest that Lovecraft's unique vision didn't exactly come from his racism, but that they did both come from the same underlying source - his excessively strong need for order and purity and, for lack of a better term, comprehensibility, and his all-too-keen awareness of the fact that the world wasn't set up to provide any of those things. For a HP Lovecraft to be happy, the world would need to be safely bland and uniform and simple, with everyone looking and acting very much like himself.

Could you imagine a version of Lovecraft who was still like that, yet wasn't a racist? Maybe, to an extent. Difference in behaviour seems to have scared him more than difference in appearance - lily-white "degenerate" hillbillies gets the same treatment in his stories as mixed-race cultists. If he'd lived in a society where men and women of all races were completely integrated and brought up to behave in the exact same way and share the exact same values, I think he'd have gotten along fine with all of them - but I don't think there's any way he'd have ever viewed people from outside that society with anything but paranoid fear.

And I do think that that sense of kneejerk terror at anything that was the least bit different was part of what made him such an interesting writer. Brave and open-minded people, I think, don't write very good horror. If you want someone to write well about being scared, you want him to be someone who's easily frightened.

Quote from: shuddemell;947813And you may be correct, but it also may be true that he would have been no kind of writer without it.

Possibly:). I can't really tell.

QuoteIt, to me, is just impossible to separate the two to the point where I can say, and I am hardly suggesting there would be a similar case for VV, there has to be artistic merit there in the first place either way.

Well, VV was considered a good musician, though I personally didn't like him much. I'll put off stating an opinion on MyFrog until I've read it (possibly, never).
 

Quote from: CRKrueger;947814He might have been better or worse, but in either case, what he wrote would have been different.

That's almost verbatim what I said a couple posts ago, Green One:D!

Quote from: Baeraad;947815I would suggest that Lovecraft's unique vision didn't exactly come from his racism, but that they did both come from the same underlying source - his excessively strong need for order and purity and, for lack of a better term, comprehensibility, and his all-too-keen awareness of the fact that the world wasn't set up to provide any of those things. For a HP Lovecraft to be happy, the world would need to be safely bland and uniform and simple, with everyone looking and acting very much like himself.

Excellent analysis, AFAICT, though I'm not exactly a scholar on this author's works;).
Also, it explains my first reaction upon reading many of his stories. It's "why is he making that to be such a big deal?" "That" varied, but the reaction was there after reading almost half of his works.

QuoteCould you imagine a version of Lovecraft who was still like that, yet wasn't a racist?

Yes.
There's even a series for a character like this, it's called "Monk".

QuoteMaybe, to an extent. Difference in behaviour seems to have scared him more than difference in appearance - lily-white "degenerate" hillbillies gets the same treatment in his stories as mixed-race cultists. If he'd lived in a society where men and women of all races were completely integrated and brought up to behave in the exact same way and share the exact same values, I think he'd have gotten along fine with all of them - but I don't think there's any way he'd have ever viewed people from outside that society with anything but paranoid fear.

So, in other words, he'd have felt fine in a remote kingdom up to the 19th century;). His curse was having been born in a rather cosmopolitan place!
I can see that. But I can also see how, if he wasn't the way he was, he might have been writing about the horror he felt when considering the idea that one day, those that insist on everybody acting the same way might get to rule the world:).
He'd have to situate it in a distant year, of course, like 1984...

QuoteAnd I do think that that sense of kneejerk terror at anything that was the least bit different was part of what made him such an interesting writer. Brave and open-minded people, I think, don't write very good horror. If you want someone to write well about being scared, you want him to be someone who's easily frightened.

I've pondered that, but then I tend to remember that some horror authors I can think of didn't seem to be of the easily scared kind.
But being easily scared can almost certainly help in writing some kinds of horror, that's for sure. Let's leave it at that!

Quote from: AsenRG;947819Also, it explains my first reaction upon reading many of his stories. It's "why is he making that to be such a big deal?" "That" varied, but the reaction was there after reading almost half of his works.

Oh, definitely. A lot of the time, I feel like the end of his stories go like this:

LOVECRAFT: "Monsters... EXIST!"
*beat*
ME: "Yeah, and? Are they going to do anything?"
LOVECRAFT: "Good heavens, no! That would be far too upsetting! But they're sitting there, all sorts of, you know, existing and stuff! Doesn't that horrify you?"
ME: "Dude... >_<"

Quote from: AsenRG;947819So, in other words, he'd have felt fine in a remote kingdom up to the 19th century;). His curse was having been born in a rather cosmopolitan place!

Pretty much. In particular, I think he'd been happy as a pig in muck if he'd gotten to be a monk in some medieval convent. An ordered daily regimen, scholarly and artistic pursuits, austere surroundings, and absolutely nothing allowed that could be in any way, shape or form upsetting.

Quote from: Baeraad;947822Pretty much. In particular, I think he'd been happy as a pig in muck if he'd gotten to be a monk in some medieval convent. An ordered daily regimen, scholarly and artistic pursuits, austere surroundings, and absolutely nothing allowed that could be in any way, shape or form upsetting.

So - he would have been happy if he'd had a safe space to live in?

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;947823So - he would have been happy if he'd had a safe space to live in?

Pretty much. Oversensitive conservatives yearn for them just as much as oversensitive liberals, you know.

Quote from: Baeraad;947822Oh, definitely. A lot of the time, I feel like the end of his stories go like this:

LOVECRAFT: "Monsters... EXIST!"
*beat*
ME: "Yeah, and? Are they going to do anything?"
LOVECRAFT: "Good heavens, no! That would be far too upsetting! But they're sitting there, all sorts of, you know, existing and stuff! Doesn't that horrify you?"
ME: "Dude... >_<"

Yeah, this:)!

QuotePretty much. In particular, I think he'd been happy as a pig in muck if he'd gotten to be a monk in some medieval convent. An ordered daily regimen, scholarly and artistic pursuits, austere surroundings, and absolutely nothing allowed that could be in any way, shape or form upsetting.

Actually, given what was going on in some convents, he might have started writing stories about how sins lead to corruption, and that's horrific:D!

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;947823So - he would have been happy if he'd had a safe space to live in?

Quote from: Baeraad;947824Pretty much. Oversensitive conservatives yearn for them just as much as oversensitive liberals, you know.

I suspect "oversensitive" is the keyword here, not political affiliation;).

I think too, that a factor to his unique brand of racism was that it really didn't come from a place of hatred, but rather fear of the unknown. While these both can lead to the same place, in Lovecraft's instance it primarily drove his art and no so much to him actively hating anyone. This obviously is a minor distinction, but is the one that leads me to the conclusion that whatever his real degree of racism was, it cannot be adequately judged by modern standards, or even common standards. To do so requires a great deal of deconstruction which leaves you with something other than HP Lovecraft.