So, way back in the day, I played a decent amount of Tunnels & Trolls. A few years ago, they Kickstarted a new, updated version of the game: Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls. I missed the Kickstarter, but as soon as I saw it at a local con right after the Kickstarter ended, I bought the book. I thought, "wow, this is going to be rad, I'm going to play the shit out of this game!"
Since then, I've run a DT&T convention game, and I've tried a couple of sessions on Roll20, but... it just... it doesn't feel "right". I can't really explain it, but I feel like I'm missing something.
Anyone else share that feeling with DT&T? Or is it just me? Hell, are there even any T&T players here on this site?
Quote from: Chunkthulhu;1085536So, way back in the day, I played a decent amount of Tunnels & Trolls. A few years ago, they Kickstarted a new, updated version of the game: Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls. I missed the Kickstarter, but as soon as I saw it at a local con right after the Kickstarter ended, I bought the book. I thought, "wow, this is going to be rad, I'm going to play the shit out of this game!"
Since then, I've run a DT&T convention game, and I've tried a couple of sessions on Roll20, but... it just... it doesn't feel "right". I can't really explain it, but I feel like I'm missing something.
Anyone else share that feeling with DT&T? Or is it just me? Hell, are there even any T&T players here on this site?
Some of the "experienced" folk here may have some exposure to T&T, but now it's quite obscure. I can't tell you what doesn't feel right as I don't know exactly what you mean. Do you mean there is a change in the rules? Or the game just doesn't feel right anymore? My experience with the game is pretty limited as I much prefer D&D.
Quote from: Beldar;1085541it's quite obscure
Yeah, I know. I keep looking at it on my bookshelf and think both that I should just forget about it, and that I should start running it. :)
Quote from: Beldar;1085541Or the game just doesn't feel right anymore?
That. I suppose it's a case of "rose tinted glasses", which kind-of makes me a bit sad. It's not a bad game, very rules-light.
The big appeal of old T&T was all the solitaire adventures, and the game really was set up as a RPG you could play on your own. The combat system (if memory serves) really didn't make for fun multiplayer action. I don't know what "Deluxe" T&T offers, but if it doesn't come with half a dozen solo adventures, it just would be T&T to me.
Quote from: Chunkthulhu;1085546That. I suppose it's a case of "rose tinted glasses", which kind-of makes me a bit sad. It's not a bad game, very rules-light.
It is EXTREMELY rules-light, which is great 99% of the time, but every time I play it the combat system just doesn't work for me. It's fast as hell, actually works perfectly fine, but I always go back to rolling d20s and AD&D. When I was in high school, I ran a pretty good T&T campaign that ended up fizzling out inexplicably because we were all having a great time. We transitioned to BECMI and went 1st to 36th to Immortals, never looking back on T&T. Again, I have no idea why, but like you the system just feels flat to me. Contrast this with MSPE which essentially uses the same system and is one of the better espionage games out there.
Maybe it's just the fantasy background that doesn't work that well? I think T&T might work better if it was more science-fantasy or something.
For those like me that couldn't remember combat... http://www.flyingbuffalo.com/bccombat.htm (http://www.flyingbuffalo.com/bccombat.htm)
Yeah I never got the feeling that T&T had "legs" beyond a quick Saturday night game or something. But who knows; I've heard of people who ran years-long Ghostbusters and Aliens games...I'm sure somewhere out there there's a decades-old T&T home campaign with high-powered characters who've made names for themselves...
For me, the "sweet spot" of T&T was 5E. Maybe it's because the rules essentially didn't change for two decades and so pretty much everything on the planet was compatible with 5E, but that one has been my go-to for a long time. I bought the super 7E version in a tin box but it just didn't grab me, so when DT&T came out I didn't follow up on it.
5E rules!
Quote from: finarvyn;1085585I bought the super 7E version in a tin box
I did too! But then I got rid of it, and now I wish I hadn't.
I used to play Tunnels and trolls solo adventures many years ago in my teens.
I had a great time doing so.
But as soon as I found other roleplayers to actually play with, we went straight to AD&D and I never went back to T&T.
I have fond memories of it though. Yeah it was a very simple system and probably fun for one off games, but not expended campaigns I think.
If I see it cheap, I might get it with solo solo adventures and give them another run through for old times sake. :)
Oh hello! Long time lurker, first time poster.
I'm new to DT&T. I picked up a copy a few months ago, have thoroughly enjoyed reading through it, and I'm eager to get a game in. I've played some of the simple solo campaigns, and plan to sit down with one of the more involved ones soon.
I have some suspicions about why DT&T might feel off/fizzle out, but they're purely academic at this point since I don't have much play in. It seems pretty consistently fun to get started with, so I'm keen to give it a whirl anyway.
I was trying to find a play by post group online, but since I also couldn't find much activity I figured I'd have to GM it, so was waiting to post for that when I'd have a little more free time.
Of course I'd also like to get into games in about 3-4 other rules systems too, so who knows.
Cheers
Quote from: danskmacabre;1085624If I see it cheap, I might get it with solo solo adventures and give them another run through for old times sake. :)
I don't know how your cheap-nostalgia curve looks exactly, but FWIW, DTRPG has 5e for $7 and 1e for $2.
DT&T is much steeper at $20.
I got to play in a T&T game run by Ken St. Andre at Gen Con a few years ago and while he is a fun gm, he might as well been running a game with no rules at all. Nothing seemed to matter except gm fiat. I think that is how people generally play T&T. If you actually try to play RAW, it doesn't look like much fun and seems rather dumb.
I just recently got the deluxe book to give it another try and was pretty disappointed with it. The magic spells and campaign setting are embarrassingly silly. The combat rules are both too simple and too tedious (all that counting of dice). And the worst part was the complete absence of any monster information in such a large book. You want monsters? Just make up some shit and apply an arbitrary number to it. You might as well just make up your own game rules on the fly as to use this.
Advanced Fighting Fantasy, which I picked up at the same time, is a vastly superior game which covers the same niche.
T&T has a nice beer & pretzels feel to it. For a long-term campaign, the abstract combat might eventually get stale, but I could see some minor tweaks helping to individualize things.
Also, I've never been crazy about dice pools and death spirals, but it's simple in execution so it's not a dealbreaker.
I like T&T a lot more if you run combat off Saving Throws, like ranged attacks and spells work. You can make melee work exactly the same way: exchanges of Saving Throw attacks vs. a target number (Dex for example) and then reducing damage with armor as stated. The brilliance of the system is tied up in expanding those Saving Throws into a general mechanic. It's very easy to layer on a skill system on it.
I tend to ditch the dice-pool combat system most of the time. I don't really mind the death spiral in it, as it only affects monsters. PC's basically work akin to D&D, just with HP = Con.
Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1085641I don't know how your cheap-nostalgia curve looks exactly, but FWIW, DTRPG has 5e for $7 and 1e for $2.
DT&T is much steeper at $20.
A digital copy is nice to see what it's like, but I'd prefer to get a physical copy. Looks like dtrpg doesn't do that tho.
Someone mentioned a limited release that came in a tin, which sounds pretty cool.
Quote from: goblinslayer;1085670Advanced Fighting Fantasy, which I picked up at the same time, is a vastly superior game which covers the same niche.
I went to Dragonmeet in London some years ago and saw the makers of this game advertising this.
It looked quite interesting. I used to play the Fighting Fantasy games a LOT in my teens in the 80s.
Those little Pocket book solo games were great fun!
I had T&T way back, and then bought 5E and 7E a few (several, many?) years back when it had a sort of minor renaissance in the early 2000s. 7E added some interesting elements, but was poorly edited, 5E is a much stronger rule set overall. I didn't go in on Deluxe, and haven't followed it to see what changes were made.
I found it (5E) worked well for introducing children to RPGs. The way damage is divided across the party and individual players can voluntarily soak up additional damage helps to reduce unexpected PC deaths, and encourages team work. The fairly light rules work well for inexperienced players since they basically just need to tell the GM what they want to do, and roll some dice.
I was on the Trollbridge T&T site at the time and for being such a simple game, I found the help of experienced T&T players invaluable to really make the most of it. There is a lot of rule interpretation required to really make it fun to play. The suggestions I got from experienced players showed me there was more nuance to the rules. It is definitely more narrative in nature than D&D, but the rules keep it out of the "story game" realm or at least what I consider to be story game (DM just making stuff up).
Like Brad I find MSPE to be much more solid game, which is kind of strange since they really are not too far apart mechanically. I think a large part for both is getting into that early period mindset, when rule books were small and a lot of rules just assumed you knew what they meant.
There is more too it than a beer and pretzels game, but I couldn't see myself running a long term campaign with it either. Probably a nice system for pick up games and as I mentioned at the top, a useful introduction to RPGs. The game was an early example of play by post back when that involved stamps, so would be an easy system for online play.
I haven't spent time on the site in quite some time, so not sure how active it is, but Vin's Troll Bridge was the place to be for T&T.
Vin's Troll Bridge/ (http://trollbridge.proboards.com/)
Quote from: Toadmaster;1085676Vin's Troll Bridge was the place to be for T&T.
Vin's Troll Bridge/ (http://trollbridge.proboards.com/)
FYI, I'm Vin. (Vin Ahrr Vin = Finarvyn.) I started the TrollBridge years ago because I wasn't happy with the way the Trollhalla site had a streaming message thing and I liked the notion of threads where you could actually find stuff later on. Mostly 5E chatter there, but some DT&T as well. :)
Quote from: Chunkthulhu;1085536Hell, are there even any T&T players here on this site?
Several of us!
I love T&T, and I've run several campaigns, but the combat system with multiple players too often devolves into just calling out numbers and doing far too much math which ruins immersion too often. 2-3 players? Fine. 5-7 players? Ugh.
I've done several work arounds and house rules, but too often I just wonder why I just don't play some OD&D instead. Though, when I run T&T at cons, the players always have fun and there is enthusiasm for more.
I've mostly run 5e T&T and I've run 4e as well. I have never seen a copy of 1e and I'd like to see how the game progressed.
The problem I had with T&T was the 'big cloud with fists, arms swords and clubs coming out of it' that was combat. In a way it was good (especially for PbP) because it doesn't bog down with the my go/your go plodding of D&D and games like that. On the other, fights were basically broken down into a mass brawl with the occasional SR to break the deadlock or pull off a stunt that gave some advantage etc.
It is a good game for play by post. Those kind of games tend not to last more than a few months (or if lucky a few years) with player attrition and the like. Without the GM crafting a game world there never seemed to be much in the way of longevity beyond a few dungeon hack sessions. I think T&T Deluxe was meant to sort that with giving somewhere to go beyond the dungeon but for me the feel/flavour of T&T was best expressed by 5.5 or maybe 7.5. I backed the DT&T kickstarter and have the rulebook in pdf but never even looked inside it... Heh, probably rings true for most Kickstarters I've backed.
Quote from: finarvyn;1085687FYI, I'm Vin. (Vin Ahrr Vin = Finarvyn.)
Was Vin Ahrr Vin your troll name as bequeathed by Ken himself? If so, small world, I was Hunt'arr, although I never really did post much on his site. Definitely remember Vin Ahrr Vin, though. :D
Quote from: RMS;1085672I like T&T a lot more if you run combat off Saving Throws, like ranged attacks and spells work. You can make melee work exactly the same way: exchanges of Saving Throw attacks vs. a target number (Dex for example) and then reducing damage with armor as stated.
Can you expand on this a bit? This sounds like a very interesting take on combat that I'd like to try out.
Quote from: RMS;1085672I like T&T a lot more if you run combat off Saving Throws, like ranged attacks and spells work. You can make melee work exactly the same way: exchanges of Saving Throw attacks vs. a target number (Dex for example) and then reducing damage with armor as stated.
Can you expand on this a bit? This sounds like a very interesting take on combat that I'd like to try out.