Quote from: Old Aegidius on July 12, 2023, 05:06:23 AMI would say the themes you enjoy about Darkest Dungeon are still latent in the other works.

I enjoy both for different reasons, which I wrote up but was deleted by accident.

Dark Fantasy balances between cathartic meaning and self-indulgengent depravity.

Lets say there was a movie about a psychopath that caused the slow destruction of every person that ever tried to help them, and now has a successful career kidnapping childrens beloved pets and making torture snuff films out of them. And thats it. Anybody that tries to stop them fails, and the psychopath has a deep enjoyment and personal fullfillment. And it ends with them readiying another mark. Thats the movie. No other purpose, no point. Just a wallowing and validation in depravity.
I would posit most people would find that sick. When we watch dark stories we generally want some catharcisis out of it, even if its just of despair.
We want a dark story to have meaning to come out of it feeling like the darkness had a point, something to learn from, even if its just "It can always be worse". If a dark story has no catharcis, then its sick. It becomes about the enjoyement of depravity. It becomes a monument to Evil.

My issue with Dark Souls is it pretty much denies intentionally any form of catharcis. Even despair. By being vague and inconclusive we don't even get the main character collapse to the floor and weep and such. Or a shock of the realization of the futility of our actions. But we do know for certain that the future will not be kind or relieving.

To me Dark Souls is like that snuff film movie. Its there for the kicks and depravity. Even with that I may find an angle to it if it kept its mouth shut. But instead it wants to do some vague psuedo intelectual commentary about the nature of hope or some shit. Which it only half -heartedly gives a shit about. It exists as a self-serving excuse to justify why it wants to make its snuff film universe. Just shut the fuck up Dark Souls.  Your "Too Cool" for answering questions or catharcis. Having heroic characters triumph in a non-futile way is for pussies. And your too smart and cool for that. And so it ends like a story with only depravity can end:
It hate-fucks itself into a conclusion where everything existed forever and then collapses into a bug crunch of futility and hate. And of course with ambiguity because again - if there even was a miserable ending there would be catharcis by virtue of conclusive ending. In its shallow attempts to be deep, it ends up being a monument to depravity and evil by accident. Which is why I hate its pretentious waffle.

I can't comment on Berserk much because the author died. I just hated its own pretentious twaddle about how "People shouldn't look for reasons for evil because then a evil monster will form out of that desire and will rape you". I personally think a story about fatalism and futility was destined to either end nihilistically or betraying its own principles.

This is where the "Shutting your mouth up" part comes in. If Dark fantasy just wants to be badass and just do some cool aesthetic and monsters - sure.
Kingdom Death: Monster is about badass monsters and tits. No further commentary on the nature of mankind or life. And I respect it for that. I generally find it more enjoyable for its capacity to just be metal instead of pretentious.

QuoteRPGs IMO struggle with dark fantasy because of the canonical statements they feel the need to make in their setting books.

Eh I disagree. Id say that a Dark Fantasy TRPG struggles with is it's near indistinguisable from a GM power trip.

My worst Dark Fantasy campaign Experience was in a game of World of Darkness. Our parties efforts where always futile, and our place in society was of constant mockery and scorn by superior elders that where unassailable but always looked down on us. The ST also played extremely hardball with XP and let us acumulate it but rarely ever spend it in the name of "Realism". The good where corrupted and failed, and the evil where rewarded and succeeded.

That there was a vaugue contradictory cannon about it there somewhere wasn't what made it not-work in my opinion.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 11, 2023, 09:03:10 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on July 11, 2023, 05:23:38 PM
Anyone care to define weird fantasy and how it might differ from dark fantasy?

I believe Eric defines it in his blog as the nexus point of science-fiction, horror, and fantasy, which suits me fine.

Yup, thanks for mentioning it!

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/03/my-weird-dark-twisted-fantasy.html

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 11, 2023, 09:33:38 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 11, 2023, 08:10:13 AM
About dark fantasy RPGs, here is something I wrote about mine.

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2018/04/whats-so-dark-about-dark-fantasy-d.html

As you might know, Dark Fantasy Basic is my vision of how a dark D&D (BX/5e) would look like.

[...]

Here is a small list that may be useful if you're trying to add "dark" elements to ANY version of D&D, or other RPGs...

I agree with you on most of these, but there's a couple of them I'd take issue with.

You make some good points, let me address a couple:

Magic: can be dangerous in various ways, I agree; randomness is only one of them, others are corruption, madness and sacrifice. I address some of this in other book (Alternate Magic). One interesting treatment is in Carcosa with its horrific rituals. SotDL has soem interesting rules too. The random magic I got mostly from DCC. And there is always CoC, where magic necessarily makes you insane.

Darkness: I agree this is not an important part of DF literature, but I think it would be a relevant part of DF RPGs, making the world more dangerous and mysterious.

I agree with the "darkness inside" part. Maybe I should have added it to the book TBH; I did mention virtues and vices 9iand secrets, sins, etc.) in my first supplement (DF characters).

You might categorize my new campaign I will be starting next month as Dark Fantasy.

Set in the Hyborian Age of Conan. I got inspiration from REH's works, along with HPL's as well. They were in correspondence with each other, with HPL a mentor to REH. But anyway, let me get to some general notes on the setting:

Humans only: no elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, etc. Your race/ethnicity determines what ability score modifiers you have at character creation. Cimmerians get a +1 to Dex and Con, Hyrkanians get a +2 to Dex, Aquiloninas get a +1 Str and Cha. You get the idea. Same idea with available character classes: ethnicity determines what classes are available. From my previous example, Cimmerians can be Barbarians, Fighters, Thieves, Rangers (no spell ability), Clerics, Druids, Bounty Hunters, and Bandits. Because of their distrust of arcane magic, Cimmerians have no wizards, illusionists, etc. Aquilonians OTOH being more civilized and cosmopolitan have Fighters, Rangers (no spell ability), Knights, Clerics, Druids, Bounty Hunters, Bandits, Thieves, Magic-users, Illusionists, and Wild mages.

Gods: well, you do have the "normal" set of gods familiar to the setting: Mitra, Set, Ishtar, etc. BUT the Great Old Ones and Elder Gods of the Cthulhu Mythos exists as well. Depending on the kingdom, they're either secret cults all the way to open worship. Of the knows gods, some of them my be another aspect of the Great Old Ones or Elder Gods. One never knows...

Magic may have a price: I'm still up in the air about how I'm to handle this. I'm either going to use the DCC rules in this regard OR use of magic may cause a loss of Sanity based upon the level of the spell (1st level: 1 point, 2nd: 2 points, etc.) Which leads to...

Sanity: since the Mythos exists in my game world, I'm using the Sanity saving throw in Adv. Dark and Deep Swords of Cthulhu. In addition, I'm using Sanity points derived largely form CoC (Int +Wis x 5 / 2). If you fail your San save, San points are lost from either magic or encounters with Mythos creatures. Too much loss of San can result in either temporary of permanent phobias and other psychological damage. You can regain San from either rest of defeating Mythos threats.

more to come later...

Hmmm what else...

Monsters: IF it's creepy, crawly, weird...it's in their. Giant insects? Check. Black puddings? Check. Deep Ones? Check? There are prehistoric creatures in the deep dark regions. Serpent folk, Lizard men, Yaun Ti are tied together in some fashion. Fairy folk don't exists. No pixies, nixies, brownies, etc. Too high fantasy. This is very primal. Dark. In fact, the TV show Primal is a big influence.

Alignment: standard 9 point system. it's what my group is familiar with.

adventures: my campaign setting is basically a sandbox with a select group of pre-published modules thrown in. You can probably think of a few classic adventures that can easily fit in and I've included. Isle of Dread is definitely one. Dwellers of the Forbidden City is another. I was thinking Hidden Shrine of Tomoachan but my group is too familiar with it. Found a substitute: DCC's Curse of the Emerald Cobra, so that will be a blast. Here's a few others:

S1 Tomb of Horrors
S4 Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth
WG4 The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun
Darkness at Nekemte
Dcc #15 Lost Tomb of the Sphinx Queen
DCC #23 the Sunken ziggurat
DCC #45 Malice of the Medusa

the list is by no means conclusive. Also, I've paid zero attention to character level in regards to the adventures in the campaign. It's truly random. If they stumble upon the Tomb of Horrors and they're only 1st to 3rd level...well that's on them. They won't know it's the Tomb of Horrors, so there's that...hehehe...

Oh the rules: I'm using Adv Labyrinth Lord with Adventures Dark and Deep Swords of Cthulhu, and Realms of Chaos for Labyrinth Lord. Plus a smattering of house rules I've come up with (sanity for one). I may lift rules from AD&D 1st Ed, DCC, etc. where I see fit...and if I don't? #1 rule of OSR: Rulings, not rules, and be consistent with them.

that's it for now.

Quote from: Melichor on July 08, 2023, 11:42:21 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on July 08, 2023, 06:58:53 PM
nihilistic

This is what defines Dark Fantasy. Life is meaningless and there is no hope.
"strange, magnificent landscapes, mad gods, doomed heroes, and fallen kingdoms" are just the Gonzo dial cranked up higher for the setting.

So the Elric / Stormbringer RPGs would be a direct hit for Dark Fantasy?

What about Mork Borg?

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 13, 2023, 03:00:48 AM

Quote from: Melichor on July 08, 2023, 11:42:21 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on July 08, 2023, 06:58:53 PM
nihilistic

This is what defines Dark Fantasy. Life is meaningless and there is no hope.
"strange, magnificent landscapes, mad gods, doomed heroes, and fallen kingdoms" are just the Gonzo dial cranked up higher for the setting.

So the Elric / Stormbringer RPGs would be a direct hit for Dark Fantasy?

What about Mork Borg?

My thing is what about the rest of the Eternal Champion saga? Elric of Melnibonne' and Stormbringer is a direct hit, but what about Corum & Hawkmoon, etc.? Dark settings yes, doomed heroes yes, but nihilistic I would say they are not.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 10, 2023, 09:49:49 AM
I think I have one good example: Poul Anderson. Two of the three books mentioned in the appendix N are "three hearts and three lions" and " the broken sword".

Off topic, but if you like those two books, you might want to check out "The Knight" by Gene Wolfe. The setting is very similar to The Broken Sword, and the plot is almost explicitly a riff on 3 Hearts and 3 Lions. He even name-drops 3H3L at one point. I'm about halfway through and it's been quite good so far.

Quote from: Old Aegidius on July 09, 2023, 02:35:36 PM
I think part of the struggle with genres is a common idea that they're hierarchical - but they're more like clusters of common traits.

The real problem is that people will co-opt or misuse a term to fit their own agenda.

Adam West's Batman is dark fantasy because it has murderous villains.

etc ad nausium.

Then someone else reads that and propagates the stupid.

Then you have the usual cretins who stretch a term so out of proportion that it might as well be "Everything on Earth".

Storygamers being the posterchild for this.

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 13, 2023, 03:00:48 AM
So the Elric / Stormbringer RPGs would be a direct hit for Dark Fantasy?

Doesn't Elric blow the Horn of Fate and bring a new world into being?

I dunno, I never thought of Elric as dark. The Eternal Champion saga has an official happy ending, after all, though not for Elric personally ofc. Elric certainly is not set in a meaningless universe; that would be Conan.

I'd definitely put Game of Thrones* in Dark Fantasy, with its crapsack world vibe & nihilistic cosmology. Maybe The Witcher, though it seems very much on the light end of dark.

*"You - you've been to the Other Side?"
"There IS no Other Side!"

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 13, 2023, 03:00:48 AM
So the Elric / Stormbringer RPGs would be a direct hit for Dark Fantasy?

What about Mork Borg?

It's been a while since I looked at Elric/Stormbringer, but I remember it being essentially just a conversion of Runequest for the Young Kingdoms setting. I could be wrong about that, though. I would be curious to see an Elric game that was designed from the ground up for that purpose, but the only one I'm aware of is Mournblade, and sadly I don't read French. I've seen some buzz about it being published in English, but I've never been able to find it for sale.

I'd kind of written off Mork Borg as being too "down in the mud" and focused on gross-out. Just went and did another flip-through of the book though, and yeah you might be right. At least the splash-text for the setting does seem to match the kind of thing I was describing. I'm still a little iffy on it's merits as a game. maybe I'll check out some actual plays and see what it's like in practice.

Quote from: S'mon on July 15, 2023, 05:11:59 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 13, 2023, 03:00:48 AM
So the Elric / Stormbringer RPGs would be a direct hit for Dark Fantasy?

Doesn't Elric blow the Horn of Fate and bring a new world into being?

I dunno, I never thought of Elric as dark. The Eternal Champion saga has an official happy ending, after all, though not for Elric personally ofc. Elric certainly is not set in a meaningless universe; that would be Conan.

I'd definitely put Game of Thrones* in Dark Fantasy, with its crapsack world vibe & nihilistic cosmology. Maybe The Witcher, though it seems very much on the light end of dark.

I still maintain that happy --or at least bittersweet-- endings are not mutually exclusive with dark fantasy. An example that popped into my mind in the last couple of days is "The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask". That's a game heavily about death, pain, loss, curses, and black magic. The villain wants to bring about the apocalypse because he used to be a friend of the gods and resents them for abandoning him. The hero seals the souls of the recently dead in masks so that he can impersonate them and take on their abilities. Pretty dark stuff, especially for a game meant for children, but it still has a happy ending.

The tone of the Witcher franchise varies a little bit between mediums. The short stories and the CDPR games engage a little more with the cosmic side than the main novels do, but I would broadly put it into whatever category you put "Game of Thrones". it's not quite as bleak, but it has the same heavy political bent, historical influence, and hard R-rated focus on political intrigue and war victimizing the innocent.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 14, 2023, 09:05:24 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 10, 2023, 09:49:49 AM
I think I have one good example: Poul Anderson. Two of the three books mentioned in the appendix N are "three hearts and three lions" and " the broken sword".

Off topic, but if you like those two books, you might want to check out "The Knight" by Gene Wolfe. The setting is very similar to The Broken Sword, and the plot is almost explicitly a riff on 3 Hearts and 3 Lions. He even name-drops 3H3L at one point. I'm about halfway through and it's been quite good so far.

Thanks! Will check. I tried the New Sun stuff but it was a hard read for me at the time.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 15, 2023, 09:20:41 AM

Quote from: S'mon on July 15, 2023, 05:11:59 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 13, 2023, 03:00:48 AM
So the Elric / Stormbringer RPGs would be a direct hit for Dark Fantasy?

Doesn't Elric blow the Horn of Fate and bring a new world into being?

I dunno, I never thought of Elric as dark. The Eternal Champion saga has an official happy ending, after all, though not for Elric personally ofc. Elric certainly is not set in a meaningless universe; that would be Conan.

I'd definitely put Game of Thrones* in Dark Fantasy, with its crapsack world vibe & nihilistic cosmology. Maybe The Witcher, though it seems very much on the light end of dark.

I still maintain that happy --or at least bittersweet-- endings are not mutually exclusive with dark fantasy.

I agree with FF here. Elric is dark fantasy because it is all about suffering; Elric literally can never find peace. Everyone suffers and dies, and if a new universe is born in the last page, the rest of the saga is still very much dark fantasy. Same for GoT and its silly ending. Conan is darkish, but Conan's losses are rarely comparable to Elric's. He often has a good time, seldom suffers significant defeat, and doesn't care for most of the friends and lovers he loses in the way.

"Black metal" is not defined by its lyrics. Likewise, "dark fantasy" is not about the ultimate meaning, but about tone and focus.

EDIT: BTW, I just wrote a review of the first Kane book I've read. I'm pretty sure THIS is dark fantasy!

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/07/darkness-weaves-book-review-darkest.html

Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 15, 2023, 10:31:56 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 14, 2023, 09:05:24 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 10, 2023, 09:49:49 AM
I think I have one good example: Poul Anderson. Two of the three books mentioned in the appendix N are "three hearts and three lions" and " the broken sword".

Off topic, but if you like those two books, you might want to check out "The Knight" by Gene Wolfe. The setting is very similar to The Broken Sword, and the plot is almost explicitly a riff on 3 Hearts and 3 Lions. He even name-drops 3H3L at one point. I'm about halfway through and it's been quite good so far.

Thanks! Will check. I tried the New Sun stuff but it was a hard read for me at the time.

I bounced off of "Shadow of the Torturer", too. It was kind of the same experience I had with "Gormenghast". Objectively, I can step back and see it's very good prose, but I wasn't having fun reading it, and it didn't seem to be going anywhere. "The Knight" is much quicker moving and more direct.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 15, 2023, 12:09:34 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 15, 2023, 10:31:56 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 14, 2023, 09:05:24 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 10, 2023, 09:49:49 AM
I think I have one good example: Poul Anderson. Two of the three books mentioned in the appendix N are "three hearts and three lions" and " the broken sword".

Off topic, but if you like those two books, you might want to check out "The Knight" by Gene Wolfe. The setting is very similar to The Broken Sword, and the plot is almost explicitly a riff on 3 Hearts and 3 Lions. He even name-drops 3H3L at one point. I'm about halfway through and it's been quite good so far.

Thanks! Will check. I tried the New Sun stuff but it was a hard read for me at the time.

I bounced off of "Shadow of the Torturer", too. It was kind of the same experience I had with "Gormenghast". Objectively, I can step back and see it's very good prose, but I wasn't having fun reading it, and it didn't seem to be going anywhere. "The Knight" is much quicker moving and more direct.

This was my exact expirence with Book of the New Sun as well. Ill check out The Knight too. Yhough currently im reading through the Elric saga because i got the new edititions and the Citidel of Forgotten Myths. To me this is tonally what i think of as dark fantasy.

Book of the New Sun is definitely Dark. But mostly Weird.