Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 09, 2023, 01:27:27 AM
Also Im not sure how cannon it is, and if Im even remembering it correctly, but isn't it a universe that punishes you for thoughtcrime? That the evil god is born of human thought for the crime of wanting an explanation for suffering? Again that was a long time ago and I heard the author kinda maybe stepped away from that explanation.

There is the "godhand" which is 5 demonic entities (straightforwardly inspired by the cenobytes in Hellraiser it would seem). There is also the "idea of evil" which is essentially this spiraling force that consumes souls into itself. The manga had not, as far as I'm aware, provided an authoritative explanation regarding its origin and exact nature. There is a general explanation of what it is, but it's provided by a demon. If you read the manga critically, it's fairly obvious that half the stuff you hear about the astral realm, even if told to you by a native of that realm, is not always reliable information. The closest thing to a reliable narrator is Guts' witch companion and she still lacks a lot of context. We are told that apostles have no humanity nor any free will, but that's proven false early on in the black swordsman arc. We're also given a prophecy about the hawks of light and darkness and the situation is basically the inverse of what is going on. It seems like a recurring theme of unrealiable info. The only thing we can state with certainty is that the idea of evil can consume the souls of the demonic apostles when they refuse to sacrifice as part of their faustian bargain for eternal life. Even if we presume the idea of evil is a sentient being who is trying to ordain, under the laws of causality, the most evil ends, it's not much worse than the Powers within the Ravenloft setting.

Quote
Again thats if your the mercy to be the main protagonist. Everybody else gets to go through hell.

Not really - Guts has it worse than most because he has lived or is living through events which 99% of people will never even have any awareness of and his brand now inextricably ties his fate to that of the astral realm (the origin of all the evil stuff). The astral realm is strongly implied to have been harshly suppressed so that generations have now passed since the astral realm has had influence. Now, the astral realm is pushing its way back in and becoming increasingly influential, and all hell breaking loose is only natural. The other evils in the world are of the sort you'd find IRL (slavery, war, rape, murder, all the rest). Contrast that with Ravenloft, which presumably has all of the normal evils of the world plus also the relatively commonplace supernatural evils (plus seemingly sentient powers ensuring nobody ever escapes the domains of dread).

The world of Berserk is undoubtedly bleak, but it has more hope in it IMO than most of Warhammer or Ravenloft or a number of other things that don't quite get painted with the same brush. Berserk is at its core an existential fantasy - it's about finding meaning in the choices you make. It asks what life is worth living once you're no longer focused on how you can get to your happy ending. Guts' struggle is grounded in what feels like a hopeless situation, but I feel pretty confident that it's not actually hopeless. Once again, there's so much unreliable info I wouldn't take anything at face value. The story constantly tells Guts and the audience that everything is bound within causality - that all things are predetermined, and yet existentialism is ultimately about agency. Somebody is lying, and I guarantee you it's the characters in the story and not the author's heavy-handed and intentional existentialist themes. The story will necessarily find a way of explaining that all that talk about causality was empty, or there's some loophole which makes Guts' decision to overcome his rage and make a meaningful choice to live rather than die ultimately the savior of himself, his loved ones, or the world.

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 08, 2023, 10:22:18 PM
What is Ravenloft? Or Warhammer Fantasy?

I think Ravenloft is clearly gothic horror fantasy. Warhammer fantasy is grimdark fantasy since warhammer basically invented the term grimdark. Warhammer is an actually nihilistic universe IMO (especially 40k).

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 08, 2023, 04:17:29 PM
When I think about what I would consider to be iconic examples of "dark fantasy", such as Elric, Berserk, or Dark Souls, they aren't overly grotesque, nor are they relentlessly miserable. The mood is if anything more melancholy than horrific, and the moments of grimness are balanced by moments of bombast and grand mysteries.  They also tend to be fairly self-serious. Not without their moments of levity, but veering away from parody or meta-humor.

So that's my definition. "Dark fantasy" takes elements of horror, and infuses them with the scale and scope of "epic fantasy", often with themes of tragedy, entropy or collapse. It largely eschews irony, gross-out and shock value, in favor of a greater focus on mystery, spectacle and splendor. Even the horrific elements of "dark fantasy" often (though not always) have an element of grandeur or beauty to them. The horrific elements aim to attract, rather than repulse. It's that balance of tone which separates it from both "horror fantasy" and "epic fantasy", and the straightfaced-ness which separates it from "weird fantasy". Though arguably, it's a hybrid of all of the above.  "Dark fantasy" is not about zombie plagues, serial killers, or politics (though it may include those things). It's more about strange, magnificent landscapes, mad gods, doomed heroes, and fallen kingdoms.

To bring this back to tabletop games, I don't think I've yet played or read a game that really nails this tone. Old-school D&D is too mundane (and often too gonzo), and new school D&D is too safe and cheerful. I'll concede you could probably homebrew any fantasy game to try and accommodate it, but I can't say I've seen anyone get it right "out of the box".

I agree strongly with your feelings about the dark fantasy genre - it's one of my favorites, but it's also a broad genre and perhaps there are too many subgenres for dark fantasy to have much meaning anymore (kind of like "rock"). However I think another explanation is that people don't really understand the genre, and that's why they can't make it click and why we don't see many games in the genre. It's a genre ripe for revival and reinvention. Old-school D&D is more influenced by things like pulp fantasy, sci-fantasy of the 70s, historical wargaming, and all kinds of other genres than dark fantasy. It only ever feels like dark fantasy IMO because it shares some traits (like horror, sense of dread, etc).

There are a lot of games which are popular with a dark aesthetic, but they often don't have dark conceptual themes nor do they wrestle with the existentialist side of these concepts which I feel is essential. When games attempt to deal with dark fantasy concepts, you mostly see everything cranked up to 11 (like mork borg or a fair bit of warhammer or whatever else). It takes on a nihilistic quality because the game can't help but deliver a canonical explanation that the situation is well and truly hopeless and everything can only get worse from here. Dark fantasy can be truly awful for the people stuck within it, but it can never be allowed to truly and conclusively be hopeless. I think dark fantasy suffers from the same problem a lot of lovecraftian/mythos-related fiction suffers from: people don't understand the nature of cosmic horror. Cosmic horror is not fundamentally about nihilism, it's about the fact that you'll never truly be able to survive or comprehend or escape the evils of the mythos unless and until you merge with it and leave your humanity behind. That's a fear of the unknown, a repulsion to evil, and a fear of loss of identity, not a belief that nothing matters. Things most definitely matter in both cosmic horror and dark fantasy, but you usually have to piece together the meaning yourself.

I will probably post again later when I have more time, but I think one essential element of dark fantasy is that the problems are always so much bigger than the protagonist that there will never be a satisfying and final victory. The protagonist is capable of solving some problems - they just won't be the kinds of victories that will ever usher in a golden age or a lasting peace. The "good guys" are fighting every day to prolong a stalemate that prevents the worse outcomes from being realized. Someday, though, there might be a golden opportunity to ultimately triumph - but it probably won't come in your lifetime. So what do you do with yourself? The horror and beauty and tragedy and melancholy are all connected, I think, to this idea.

Seeing this thread highlights how little the understanding behind the dark fantasy genre really is. Somehow, everyone has their own concept of what it should be. It either is what it is, or it isn't.

The general categories fall within the following,

Fantasy
Action
Horror

Each general category has multiple sub categories

Dark Fantasy, is a sub element of Fantasy. Could you add horror to dark fantasy? Sure. Does it have to contain horror, no! Horror is its own element. The secret to understanding things really comes down to understanding how they work from the ground up.

Quote from: Old Aegidius on July 09, 2023, 07:25:50 AMThere is the "godhand" which is 5 demonic entities (straightforwardly inspired by the cenobytes in Hellraiser it would seem). There is also the "idea of evil" which is essentially this spiraling force that consumes souls into itself.

Im the least familiar with Berserk out of the other settings listed. So il take your word for it.

Love the genre, and generally agree with your bullet points. Have collected a number of "Dark Fantasy" TTRPGs over the years, however my favorite in the genre by far is Symbaroum by Fria Ligan (curretly my favorite RPG publisher by a country mile). Not the 5E version but the original. Was annoyed when they put new releases on hold to focus on publishing the 5e version.

Has everything you are looking for. The forest of Davokar is the focus of the campaign world, a vast corrupted wilderness filled with ancient lost kingdoms, hellish ruins, chaotic monstrosities, tainted elves, etc. Incredible art that hits home, just all around excellent books and adventures.

https://freeleaguepublishing.com/en/games/symbaroum/

Other good dark fantasy games:

Shadows of Esteren

https://portal.esteren.org/en

Black Void

https://www.modiphius.net/en-us/products/black-void-core-book

There are other games that hit the sweet spot for me even though they are not traditional "fantasy", such as the new Kult RPG for modern "dark urban fantasy", LexOccultum for gothic "dark fantasy" in renaissance France.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/riotminds/lexoccultum-role-playing-game

In short, it appears that European companies do dark fantasy far better than North American publishers, sice all the above games have come from Europe. Closest NA game I can think of would be Shadow of the Demon Lord, which is a decent game and system, but not quite at the level of the above games in terms of hitting the right notes of the genre. Closets classic game I can think of would be the original 1e Ravenloft box set, some of the domains of dread had a decent gothic dark fantasy feel (such as Lord Soth's Realm).

If you are a comics fan, there are also several great dark fantasy titles that have popped up through the years, mainly by Eurpoe Comics/Soliel, a few titles to look for:

Arawn: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/arawn/4005-58699/issues-cover/

The Black Moon Chronicles: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/the-black-moon-chronicles/4050-99886/

The recent Elric graphic novels: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/elric/4050-76999/

Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on July 09, 2023, 08:12:25 AM
Seeing this thread highlights how little the understanding behind the dark fantasy genre really is. Somehow, everyone has their own concept of what it should be. It either is what it is, or it isn't.

The general categories fall within the following,

Fantasy
Action
Horror

Each general category has multiple sub categories

Dark Fantasy, is a sub element of Fantasy. Could you add horror to dark fantasy? Sure. Does it have to contain horror, no! Horror is its own element. The secret to understanding things really comes down to understanding how they work from the ground up.

I think part of the struggle with genres is a common idea that they're hierarchical - but they're more like clusters of common traits. Genres are better defined by the media categorized under them rather than pure concepts, but the thing that brings that media together under the category are those pure concepts. Every time you remove the practical example from discussion though, things start to get blurry.

Specific examples were provided of what ForgottenF believed were emblematic of the dark fantasy genre - Berserk, Dark Souls, Elric. I have only passing familiarity with Elric but I can definitely see commonality between these pieces of media. If I try to capture that commonality in its essence, divorced from the media, I don't think that's going to work super well. Besides, it's only useful if you're trying to make your own piece of media and want to keep the essence of what you think is so great about the genre. In most other cases, it's more productive to say "I like Berserk, Dark Souls, and Elric - recommend me something else" than it is to say "recommend me something good in the dark fantasy genre". Genres are just a reference to some cluster, and I feel like Berserk and Dark Souls at least have enough cultural power that these properties will spring to mind if someone mentions dark fantasy. So I think the term is still useful. The alternative to broad genres like dark fantasy are the hyper-specific genres which are often seen in music where a genre is essentially composed of a single band. Berserk is both classic and has had staying power, so I feel like it's fair to let it act as anchor for a genre. I don't know what else it could be called other than dark fantasy (since that's how it bills itself).

Once you've figured out a genre you have to gatekeep it or the genre loses meaning because too many pieces of media get incorporated as exemplars. For example: cosmic horror has become so self-referential and nihilistic that most modern media billed as cosmic horror is something else entirely. Engage with the typical modern lovecraft-inspired piece of media and you'll get a second-hand vision of what cosmic horror filtered through a lens of pop culture that has essentially destroyed it. It's all tentacles and madness and nihilism and...it's not particularly horrific.

Quote from: Valhuen on July 09, 2023, 02:19:43 PM
Love the genre, and generally agree with your bullet points. Have collected a number of "Dark Fantasy" TTRPGs over the years....

Thanks for the recommendations. I've given Symbaroum a brief look previously. Might be worth a more detailed read-through. I was hoping to find someone running it and give it a try first-hand, but haven't been able to yet.

Had never heard of Shadows of Esteren. I'll give it the quickstart a readthrough, but the low-fantasy and gothic emphasis seems like it might be out of tone for what I'm thinking of.

I actually do own Black Void, and yeah, I would definitely count the setting as an example of Dark Fantasy, the way I'm using the term. I never got around to running it, partially because I thought it'd be hard to connect players to such an out-there setting, but mostly because I couldn't make sense of the magic system. 

I'm not that big of a comics person generally. I did pick up the first volume of the new Elric graphic novels, but they don't really compare with the novels for me.

Arawn and Black Moon Chronicles both look like exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. I'll try and get a hold of them, thanks. I definitely agree with you that the Europeans -- particularly the French for some reason --  seem to get into Dark Fantasy in a way that Americans really don't.

There's a clarification which I think I ought to make, since it's been hinted at by quite a few people's responses. I was proposing a definition of "dark fantasy" which is more  aesthetic than thematic in nature. I think I confused the issue unnecessarily by citing both Berserk and Dark Souls as examples. Those two share a lot of thematic similarities, because the latter is heavily based on the former. To broaden out the conversation a bit, let me throw out a few more examples of what I mean by Dark Fantasy:

I've already mentioned HP Lovecract's "Dream Cycle", particularly "Polaris" and "The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath". I'd also cite the videogames "Dragon's Dogma", "Dark Messiah of Might and Magic" and "Diablo" (at least the first two, never played the more recent ones), most of the artwork of Gerald Brom (including his work for Dark Sun), and the "Frank Frazetta's Death Dealer" comics. Speaking of Frank Frazetta, I think I would consider "Fire and Ice" to be Dark Fantasy as well.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 09, 2023, 10:41:59 AM

Quote from: Old Aegidius on July 09, 2023, 07:25:50 AMThere is the "godhand" which is 5 demonic entities (straightforwardly inspired by the cenobytes in Hellraiser it would seem). There is also the "idea of evil" which is essentially this spiraling force that consumes souls into itself.

Im the least familiar with Berserk out of the other settings listed. So il take your word for it.

To elaborate a bit. Miura explicitly excluded the chapter with The Idea of Evil in yhe volume releases of Berserk because he regretted adding it to the story which is why it is never mentioned again. It may be effectively non-canon or he planned to reintroduce it later into the story.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 09, 2023, 03:55:30 PMI've already mentioned HP Lovecract's "Dream Cycle", particularly "Polaris" and "The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath". I'd also cite the videogames "Dragon's Dogma", "Dark Messiah of Might and Magic" and "Diablo" (at least the first two, never played the more recent ones), most of the artwork of Gerald Brom (including his work for Dark Sun), and the "Frank Frazetta's Death Dealer" comics. Speaking of Frank Frazetta, I think I would consider "Fire and Ice" to be Dark Fantasy as well.

The largest commonality (not 100% but close) thematically in terms of what you see as a Dark Fantasy appears to be...futility I think. Either cyclical rotations of voilence, unstoppable evils, or a world past the brink.

I guess I find futility pretty frustrating to play, and it can generally deolve into a GM power trip.

Quote from: Slambo on July 09, 2023, 04:42:33 PMTo elaborate a bit. Miura explicitly excluded the chapter with The Idea of Evil in yhe volume releases of Berserk because he regretted adding it to the story which is why it is never mentioned again. It may be effectively non-canon or he planned to reintroduce it later into the story.

Im glad about that. Because the logic of the idea of evil is punishment for thought crime. At which point guts may as well throw his head into a woodchipper because everybody can be angels in Berserktopia but if their THINKING impure thoughts, you get raped by a tentacle monster.

Anyway Im pretty sure the author died. Sad, even if I didn't really care for the story.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 09, 2023, 03:55:30 PM
There's a clarification which I think I ought to make, since it's been hinted at by quite a few people's responses. I was proposing a definition of "dark fantasy" which is more  aesthetic than thematic in nature.

My question then would be, where exactly would aesthetics show up in an RPG? Just the game art? How exactly do you see aesthetics translating to mechanics? How would mechanics support the aesthetic?

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 08, 2023, 04:17:29 PM
Most recently inspired by this thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/blackbirds-rpg/), but this topic has been stewing in my head for a while.

Let me say at the outset that I understand genre distinctions can be fuzzy, especially sub-sub-genre distinctions like this one, and I know a lot of people find them pointless. I still consider them worthwhile, because when you're looking for something specific, it helps to have a name to put on it. To paraphrase the YouTuber "Perg Productions": If you tell me a band plays "rock", I have no idea what that means, but if you tell me they play "technical death metal", I now have a pretty clear expectation of what they're going to sound like.

In a previous thread, Eric Diaz linked to this (quite good) blog post: https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/03/my-weird-dark-twisted-fantasy.html
I can't stress enough that this post is NOT a shot at Eric, but that post uses the common definition of "dark fantasy" as the combination of fantasy and horror. That definition has never sat well with me. All of the "dark fantasy" properties which I Iove definitely include an element of horror, but it's often fairly minor, and it's a very specific kind of horror. Eric reconciles this in his blog by expanding the definition of horror to include tragedy as well. A good start, but it doesn't reconcile the issue for me.

Nice! Thanks for sharing the post! No offense taken, I'm happy at the opportunity of discussing Dark Fantasy, a theme I love. Apparently, you have a taste that's similar to mine! Even if we disagree with some specifics, I think we will agree in other stuff.

First, let me see I do agree that's that fantasy is not simply fantasy + horror. I did mentioned tragedy at some length, maybe I should have emphasized suffering too; I think much of dark fantasy focuses on suffering. This seems to be true for every example you mention (Elric, Berserk, or Dark Souls) and every example I can think of right now.

I recently read Kane (Darkness Weaves), and man, that is dark to the point of grimdark.  Everybody is evil and everybody suffers a lot... torture, SA, 90% of the characters die, etc.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 08, 2023, 04:17:29 PM

There's a semi famous quote from Demon's Souls/Dark Souls director Hidetaka Miyazaki, where he talks about maintaining "a certain level of refinement and elegance" in the design of his games. And that, I think, is getting at the core of what separates "dark fantasy" from just "horror fantasy ". When I think about what I would consider to be iconic examples of "dark fantasy", such as Elric, Berserk, or Dark Souls, they aren't overly grotesque, nor are they relentlessly miserable. The mood is if anything more melancholy than horrific, and the moments of grimness are balanced by moments of bombast and grand mysteries.  They also tend to be fairly self-serious. Not without their moments of levity, but veering away from parody or meta-humor.

So that's my definition. "Dark fantasy" takes elements of horror, and infuses them with the scale and scope of "epic fantasy", often with themes of tragedy, entropy or collapse. It largely eschews irony, gross-out and shock value, in favor of a greater focus on mystery, spectacle and splendor. Even the horrific elements of "dark fantasy" often (though not always) have an element of grandeur or beauty to them. The horrific elements aim to attract, rather than repulse. It's that balance of tone which separates it from both "horror fantasy" and "epic fantasy", and the straightfaced-ness which separates it from "weird fantasy". Though arguably, it's a hybrid of all of the above.  "Dark fantasy" is not about zombie plagues, serial killers, or politics (though it may include those things). It's more about strange, magnificent landscapes, mad gods, doomed heroes, and fallen kingdoms.

To bring this back to tabletop games, I don't think I've yet played or read a game that really nails this tone. Old-school D&D is too mundane (and often too gonzo), and new school D&D is too safe and cheerful. I'll concede you could probably homebrew any fantasy game to try and accommodate it, but I can't say I've seen anyone get it right "out of the box". There are a few possible reasons why:

[...]

The most obvious reason might be a lack of demand. The fantasy RPG market seems to be divided into two broad groups. Those that want their light-hearted, quippy marvel/anime style modern fantasy, and those that want either weird fantasy or pulp sword-and-sorcery style. This is a little odd, though, as in other mediums (comics, videogames, books, and visual art) dark fantasy is absolutely booming.

Another issue might be that tabletop games traditionally struggle with doing the more epic side of fantasy, without falling into the trap of becoming superhero games. This may be why games set in dark fantasy settings such as WFRP or Black Void tend to focus the action on more street-level or political conflicts. The concrete numerical nature of tabletop games makes it hard to have characters that can travel the cosmos and credibly square off with a demon king, but also won't just run roughshod over the rest of the setting. There was a game I was checking out called "Demongate" that seemed to get the tone right, but I watched some actual play and the PCs seemed to be ridiculously overpowered. 

The "dark fantasy" tone also requires that it be played straight, and ttrpg games have a tendency to rapidly trend towards silliness. Partially, this is just an obvious side effect of sitting at a table with your friends to play a game. Partially, I think it's just too hard to maintain a dark or serious tone over the length of a proper tabletop campaign.  Drama, like horror, tends to work better in shorter-form mediums.

Anybody else like or engage with this kind of fantasy, or can you recommend tabletop games that set out to do it and make it work?

Refinement and elegance are good, and I agree that all the examples you mentioned are great (some of my favorites, really), but I do not think they are particular to dark fantasy. What these games/books have in common is a focus on tragedy and suffering. Elric is doomed to suffering, maybe eternally; Guts suffers more as a child than most heroes, and in Dark Souls IIRC  you have to choose between destroying the world or destroying yourself. Kane is awesome but is more blood and guts than "elegance".

Also, these are all "overly grotesque" or "relentlessly miserable" when compared to mainstream fantasy (e.g., Tolkien, LeGuin, Vance, Lewis, Dunsany and even Howard).

(Elric specifically can never find peace and might cause the destruction of the universe by killing a creature that has been suffering for aeons out of mercy - IIRC).

About dark fantasy RPGs... well, I am obviously biased  to recommend my own, since this is my focus (and I even have a "dark fantasy line"). I'll find another post that explains why I call my RPGs "dark fantasy".

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/306824/Dark-Fantasy-EVERYTHING-BUNDLE

For other RPGs, they usually add some humor to the mix (WFRPG, SotDL). SotDL can more or less be played straight, without it, and seems to achieve the final battle with the Demon Lord  you might be looking for. I ran an entire campaign and it went very well.

I think dark fantasy RPGs more popular because they are a bit hard on the player characters.  There are not that many players that wants to engage with the genre straight.  Nevertheless,  I ran a few good ones.

I mentioned suffering, others mentioned nihilism, and I agree. "Meaningless suffering" might be a good criteria, as meaningful suffering/sacrifice can still be epic (not tragic). Still, I think suffering is the main focus, even if something partially good comes out of it.

I think I have one good example: Poul Anderson. Two of the three books mentioned in the appendix N are "three hearts and three lions" and " the broken sword". I reviewed both; they have elves, swords, trolls and magic. But the first is not Dark Fantasy: the protagonist goes in a series of quests and ends up finding quite literally the epitome of meaningful suffering (should a spoil a good if very old book?). TBS, however, is very dark, as it focuses on all kinds of suffering (for all main characters): fratricide, war, incest, etc., and it all ends with no clear meaning.

I'm not a big fan of "Black Mirror", but the first few seasons are definitely "dark" in that sense: endless depictions of creative torture, sometimes long-lasting or eternal.

"The Blade Itself" is an example of dark fantasy failure, IMO, as it show some torture and suffering that never seem to get to the protagonists "on screen", it only gives then troubled pasts.

ASOIF is also dark fantasy because it focus on the dispossessed, the maimed, the deformed, the morally imperfect, etc. It has more depictions of suffering than Lord of the Rings, for example. But not as much as Kane.

I've always understood "dark fantasy" to mean fantasy with an edgy aesthetic in an attempt to appear more mature than Tolkien. Writers throw in blood, guts, boobs, butts, and tons of literal darkness. As with generic "heroic" fantasy, most of it is utter tripe. There's really only two kinds of dark fantasy: the first type copies the same plot outline as heroic fantasy with the heroes saving the world but everybody acts like jerks about it, and the second type wallows in torturing the cast and having a bad ending where everyone dies or suffers in Hell forever.

Quote from: Ruprecht on July 08, 2023, 06:58:53 PM
Karl Edward Wagner coined the term dark fantasy and his Kane books aren't really horror. They are like nihilistic Swords & Sorcery.

Yeah!! IIRC, he's the first author to use the term for Fantasy, and not generally for "creepy tales with monsters that self-define as not being part of the Horror genre".

My two cents on this are, the difference between "Fantasy tales" and "Dark Fantasy tales" are, in "Dark Fantasy" there is no absolute truth:

Say, "Fantasy" Gandalf understands everything about Sauron because the same set of rules applies to everything, and because Gandalf knows all about Sauron on a metaphysical level.
"Dark Fantasy" Elric doesn't entirely understand Arioch because there is one set of rules for what humans know, and then there is one set of rules for what monsters know.

Or, to give another example: In Terry Brooks' "Shannara" series, you can Google things at the Hadeshorn; all info you get there is always true and good. In ASOIAF, you can Google things, too, by sacrificing children of royal blood - but you have no certainty of outcome, and you don't even know who you're talking to: You can do everything right, and still fail, because you don't have this concept of "Truth", just one of "Reality".


At the gaming table, I'm not sure how this would translate, given that the very activity of gaming requires the players to rely on "Rules" and "Truth": As a DM/"storyteller of the world", you have to hand them minimal control as to how their characters play, and how they really work. - In my own experience, whenever I want to make things "dark", I play on this "uncertainty of outcome": The quest-giver might have lied to the party, the villagers have killed the maiden themselves, the night terror is an enchanted princess, etc.

I don't think you can make a story or an adventure "Dark Fantasy" by default, though - it's something that develops through the interaction of the characters, not through the narrative setup. "Count Duckula" has all the narrative elements of "Vampire Hunter D", but it's not Dark Fantasy.